AB-Buff Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 12 hours ago, kar3516 said: “…caused restrictions and bubbles and all kinds of things in the sediment bowl.” If there is trash or debris in the sediment bowl where is it coming from (tank, fuel line, or…) and why is it the fault of the electric fuel pump? Because of greater suction draw from the tank? Because the electric pump is generally installed near the tank rather than at the engine? No trash in the sediment bowl just lots of air bubbles basically being caused from the fuel pump having to work overtime to suck it through a restriction, which was the electric fuel pump (which was brand new, and sold by previous owner) if the fuel pump was set up probably with a bypass where it fed fuel all of the time to the mechanical one it would probably be fine but when my electric pump was off, it was like a restriction in the line and when the mechanical pump was trying to suck through it, it would actually cause a vacuum, causing the fuel boil. If you took gas and put it in a little vacuum chamber and started to reduce the pressure you’re going to see it bubble that’s the effect it had. I don’t have anything against electric fuel pumps. I just don’t don’t think they’re needed if the fuel pump is rebuilt correctly and in good working order. I hope this explains it better when I posted before I was kind of in a hurry. You might ask why didn’t I leave mine on, it stopped working on a long run I was on. Causing the car to run a little funky. Fortunately, the fuel pump could suck through it with difficulties. The only thing I have in line now is a fuel filter where that pump was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Zimm63 said: Thinking of adding a pump to my 63 Riviera. I think I see how you set the pump up with the bypass, but not where the output of the pump ends up. Could you put a sketch of how you set it up, including the check valve location? Thanks. Here's the rest of the system. The arrow indicates the check valve. Here's a simplified view: 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) Since the Carter pumps have been manufactured in Mexico……I have had two new pumps fail in less than 300 miles. I would suspect the pump. It’s the only pump I run on ALL our cars……..but I now carry a spare pump that can be swapped out on the side of the road………..I have ZERO faith in them now…..but they are better than anything else I could find. Welcome to the world of Mexican Chinesium! Pass the hot sauce and soy sauce. Same goes for coils……..I have seen multiple modern 6 volt coils go bad right out of the box in less than ten miles. Last week, I had a NOS Packard 120 coil I was going to use as a replacement for a bad original……the NOS coil was junk also. Edited June 2 by edinmass (see edit history) 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 51 minutes ago, edinmass said: Since the Carter pumps have been manufactured in Mexico……I have had two new pumps fail in less than 300 miles. I would suspect the pump. It’s the only pump I run on ALL our cars……..but I now carry a spare pump that can be swapped out on the side of the road………..I have ZERO faith in them now…..but they are better than anything else I could find. Welcome to the world of Mexican Chinesium! Pass the hot sauce and soy sauce. Oh please, Ed. When did the Mexican production of Carter pumps begin? I've had two on for 17 and 20 years respectively which have never failed. And I do carry in the trailer a new-in-box one just in case. I agree that the Carter is the best one to use for the kind of cars we drive. As to overseas production, where are the American "masters" who outsourced production to cheap-labor venues when it comes to proper oversight and quality control? THAT is where we should put the squeeze when we get a defective product. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Thanks Matt, that helps a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 54 minutes ago, Grimy said: Oh please, Ed. When did the Mexican production of Carter pumps begin? I've had two on for 17 and 20 years respectively which have never failed. And I do carry in the trailer a new-in-box one just in case. I agree that the Carter is the best one to use for the kind of cars we drive. As to overseas production, where are the American "masters" who outsourced production to cheap-labor venues when it comes to proper oversight and quality control? THAT is where we should put the squeeze when we get a defective product. I wonder who makes the in tank pumps for new cars! Of course , they are 12V.. Is it just the 6V ones going bad? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 George, three years ago they shifted. I have had the conversation with several restores and they have had the same experience. I actually called the tech department about quality control and a custom made pump. The hey closed down their US research and development devision and will no longer make custom application pumps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 33 minutes ago, edinmass said: George, three years ago they shifted. I have had the conversation with several restores and they have had the same experience. I actually called the tech department about quality control and a custom made pump. The hey closed down their US research and development devision and will no longer make custom application pumps. Bummer, good to know when the transition occurred. Are the pumps or boxes date coded or marked with country of manufacture? If so, time to shop on eBay for NOS units pre-outsourcing. If I were you, I'd write to their CEO using (your) title of Collection Manager for a multi-million dollar car collection saying that their product (1) was previously your exclusive choice but is being reconsidered based on recent failures of near-new pumps, and (2) this recent diminution of quality is being frequently discussed among car collectors; and I'd urge them to institute vigorously enhanced quality controls. But I enjoy writing Dignified F U Letters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 They were helpful on the phone. The engineer helping me was sympathetic to my cause. Literally no Carter pumps were going to be made here as they continued to move production south. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Please let us know if you find an alternate unit to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 9 hours ago, edinmass said: They were helpful on the phone. The engineer helping me was sympathetic to my cause. Literally no Carter pumps were going to be made here as they continued to move production south. I really don't give a fig if they make them in Antarctica or anywhere else on the planet, I just want Carter to maintain their previous level of quality. Inferior materials now? Improper training of employees? Fix what went wrong. How hard can that be? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 4 Author Share Posted June 4 To speak directly to the fuel pump "problem" this afternoon I drove the Lincoln a few towns over to a Chevy dealership to give a thank you to a mechanic there who helped us over the phone with a problem (1995 Corvette, we changed the battery and the airbag warning light came on--ugh). I will admit that I always like driving an old car to a new car dealership and seeing how they process it. I simply drove it right into the service area and let everyone look it over for a while. That's always fun because these are guys who know cars and are always interested to see how the old tech works. Anyway, it's about 85 degrees and it was rush hour, so traffic sucked. Lots of sitting at red lights. The Lincoln got a little hot and started stumbling, so I switched on the electric pump, not sure whether it would work. Well, it did. Car drove properly with the pump running, so that's all good. The spare pump goes in the trunk for future emergencies. But for now, my Carter is working like it should. 19 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Glad to hear. But to echo Ed, I use the same Carter 4259 pump on all my cars and recently had issues with a couple of them right in a row back when I was trying to get 3 cars to the AACA Grand National. One lasted 11 miles before it stopped working. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 The only issue I've ever had is the perishing of the ground over a period of winter non-use, rather normal on 6V systems, solved by adding star washers under the ground wire fasteners. Always check for an adequate ground first using a jumper. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmhowe Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 3 hours ago, Grimy said: solved by adding star washers under the ground wire fasteners. I like the idea of using the star washers. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for posting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuickTom87 Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 This is my favorite build thread , so informative thank you ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 16 Author Share Posted June 16 Setting up for the annual Stan Hywet Father's Day car show. More later. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 57 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: Setting up for the annual Stan Hywet Father's Day car show. More later. I had a great time at the show last year. I wish it were closer so I could make it an annual event. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: Setting up for the annual Stan Hywet Father's Day car show. More later. Looks like Meadowbrook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 Sorry about the delay in getting photos posted, but I was just dead tired last night after the show. 400+ cars, about 7000 spectators, perfect weather, and some great volunteers who made it happen. The 1928 Auburn 8-115 speedster was the only 100-point car (I discourage this with my judges, but it really is a spectacular car) and also won the Addams Award for best Full Classic. You might also spot the Cadillac 60 Special owned by a fellow forum member and my friend Phil Tobin's 1941 Buick 91 Touring Sedan--I don't dare park my car next to his, it's just spectacular. As head judge, I don't really have time to get out to see the cars so I didn't wander over to the post-war field to look around. Sorry about that. The photos I took were mostly for the Ohio Region CCCA magazine, of which I am also the editor and the focus is necessarily on Full Classics. But there were apparently some extremely nice '50s and '60s cars over there with very competitive judging. One 1970 Chevelle SS only missed 100 points because his horn wasn't working. Some very high quality cars come to this show. Very impressive. 23 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 That’s ok Matt. We all understand. You can’t be Superman Matt all the time. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Auburn pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 The whole car show in 15 minutes: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 I think I can say with confidence that the Lincoln K has one of the most poorly designed water pumps in the history of water pumps. It leaks constantly and re-packing it involves removing the water pump, generator, and making 10 new gaskets EVERY FARKING TIME! It's a 2-day job just to remove it or put it back in, so figure two weeks to do the job. I'm completely fed up. It's been leaking for the last few weeks, enough to make a substantial puddle under the car. If I had to guess, I'd say that the time I spent driving it around with tap water in the cooling system put enough lime and scale on the shaft that it's chewing up the fresh packing I installed. I pulled the packing nut today to try to slide another ring of packing in there, but now I can't get the packing nut to grab and thread back into place. It looks like I've buggered the threads by trying. So this summer with the Lincoln is over. I should be used to it with this piece of crap car--it spent five of its six years with me inert. That seems to be its natural state and no amount of money seems to be able to change that. I have to tear that stupid water pump out of there for the fifth or sixth time, send it out to be rebuilt for the third time, and hopefully get a goddamned water pump that doesn't dump a gallon of coolant on the ground every 100 miles. Screw this car and the guy who designed the water pump in particular. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Sorry for your frustrations, Matt. I’d say the second worse water pump design, the 810-812 Cord pump is awful, expensive to rebuild. Recently did the one on my phaeton. I solved a water pump leaking problem on a Pierce once, new shaft and replaced packing with two lip seals, each facing a different direction. One keeps water in, other keeps air out. Worked like a charm and no adjustments needed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 You must have something going on that’s just wrong with that water pump. Maybe a rough shaft, wrong packing, something. I’ve driven mine several thousand miles and every once in a while when I get a little drip, I turned the nut about an eighth of a turn and I don’t get any water out of it at all. so somethings going on there. When my radiator was set up for pressure it still didn’t leak. Now it’s like stock no pressure at all. Not sure what to tell you. I do however, use a special water pump grease. On the end that has the bushing and when the packing was installed. Maybe that’s the difference? Hang in there. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Matt, forgive me if this is covered already, but did you make a new stainless shaft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Have you checked the shaft which drives the pump shaft (generator?) for runout? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 Water pump has been rebuilt twice by two different rebuilders. Each of them installed a new stainless shaft and ostensibly checked for runout. First guy got the back spacing wrong so it didn't pump any water at all. Second guy did a decent job except it leaked and I couldn't put new packing in because he made a new packing nut that was too long. That's why I removed it over the winter. I installed the original packing nut, which is shorter so I could theoretically get fresh packing in there more easily. And yes, it was easier to get packing in there. Now the nut just won't grab the threads and I've torn up the threads trying. So it needs to come out again and I will try a third rebuilder (did I mention it's $1500 a throw to rebuild this water pump?) to see if they can get it right. There isn't enough meat in the packing area of the pump housing to machine it for a sealed bearing, so I'm stuck with packing and replacing it every 200 miles unless this third rebuilder can figure out how to get it right. I'm not optimistic. Who cares anyway? This crapola car will simply find a new and innovative way to break even if I get the water pump solved. It has always wanted to be dead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 I was questioning possible runout on the shaft (generator armature?) which drives the water pump shaft. Is there a wobble before the front end of the water pump shaft? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Sorry for your troubles. Hopefully the third time will be the charm on the rebuild, assuming there is not another available one out there somewhere to just replace the trouble prone one. I wonder if Grimy might be onto something. That flexible coupling looks a bit rough which might indicate a bit more flexing than I would think it should experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 I have an easy solution to fixing your water pump problem…….and it doesn’t require removal or any tools. Just a pen. Buy a Pierce! 😝 A man who owns a Pierce-Arrow envies no man. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Water pump has been rebuilt twice by two different rebuilders. Each of them installed a new stainless shaft and ostensibly checked for runout. First guy got the back spacing wrong so it didn't pump any water at all. Second guy did a decent job except it leaked and I couldn't put new packing in because he made a new packing nut that was too long. That's why I removed it over the winter. I installed the original packing nut, which is shorter so I could theoretically get fresh packing in there more easily. And yes, it was easier to get packing in there. Now the nut just won't grab the threads and I've torn up the threads trying. So it needs to come out again and I will try a third rebuilder (did I mention it's $1500 a throw to rebuild this water pump?) to see if they can get it right. There isn't enough meat in the packing area of the pump housing to machine it for a sealed bearing, so I'm stuck with packing and replacing it every 200 miles unless this third rebuilder can figure out how to get it right. I'm not optimistic. Who cares anyway? This crapola car will simply find a new and innovative way to break even if I get the water pump solved. It has always wanted to be dead. Have you tried Flying Dutchman? I hear great things about them....http://www.water-pump-rebuilders.com/ Edited July 5 by keiser31 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Matt, many years ago I modified a packed gland water pump to take a modern mechanical seal. The seals come in a very large variety of sizes and I was able to find one that could be fitted, after some modification to the pump. It was not visible from the outside and never leaked a drop after that. I subsequently did the same on two other cars with the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_in_nh Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Matt, Looking at that brass nut: I see what appears to be packing material embedded into the first couple of threads. That would suggest to me that the packing material is tearing up, thus not making proper seal around the shaft. I would concentrate on that particular area first. Best of luck, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsbrassnut Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Sorry to hear about your problems. Looking at the picture of the water pump shaft and gland nut raises concerns for me. When I expand the picture and look close what I see is an old pitted steel shaft still in the water pump. A new stainless one would look smooth and shiny. If you have a "sneaky Pete" with a small magnet on the end you can check it. Most stainless steels are non-magnetic or near so. If a magnet sticks to that shaft, its an old steel shaft. A pitted shaft will never seal for long no matter what style packing or seal is installed. I have that problem with a '14 Hudson. I barely get 50 to 100 miles life out of a packing. Next, from what I have read, most of the manufacturer's had changed from the old corded packing to "semi-metallic" packing by the mid-30's. My '36 Packard 120 was built using the semi-metallic packing by the factory. The semi-metal has a rope style core and soft metal casing (looks like lead sheet). This helped to hold the rope seal in place and prevent tearing of the packing by the packing nut when tightened. The factory usually used a full ring packing, then split ring ones for aftermarket service. That style packing can be hard to get now. A picture of one aftermarket version is below. Earlier water pump packing designs were mostly based on variations of impregnated rope packing material. When using the rope style packing I have found that most manufacturers included an additional flat or coned washer between the gland nut and the rope packing. In some cases they coned the packing side of the packing nut to ensure that the packing is compressed properly. This washer prevents the gland nut from tearing into the rope packing when tightened. It also helps to better locate and compress the packing material. This washer also if miss aligned could wear grooves in the water pump shaft. So the washer needed to be a good fit in the packing gland so that it can't float and touch the pump shaft. The picture appears to show that the packing material has been squeezed into the packing gland nut threads. This could be a sign that that there is a miss match in the current materials vs the original factory design. Such as the rope packing vs metallic packing rings. My suggestion would be to re-inspect the water pump shaft and confirm if it was really replaced with a new smooth stainless shaft or not. And when using replacement "rope" style packing. Install an additional coned or flat washer behind the gland nut to prevent the gland nut from over compressing the packing and it getting into the threads of the packing nut. The threads on the packing nut also don't look to be in the best of condition. A new packing nut may be in order as well. I went through my library to try to find some reference pictures, but couldn't find much that would help. All the general automotive service books from the period don't talk much about water pump construction. They just have reminders to check/replace the packing and to not over-tighten it. Good luck with the next round of repairs, as frustrating as they may be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'm just going to take the water pump out again and send it out [again]. The job is a pain and always takes longer than it should, but whatever. I'm going to see if they can install sealed bearings or something to eliminate the packing. If not, well, hopefully they'll be able to make a new packing nut that will not only fit properly but be small enough to allow fresh packing to be installed. Part of the problem is that the car is in the showroom, not in the service area, so I'm going to have to work on it where it is. That's away from the tools, away from the compressed air, and on top of a drain. It can't be driven without a packing nut so it stays where it is. Another hassle but manageable. Don't know when I'll get around to it, I'm not really interested right now. Buick National Meet is next weekend and I have the little silver Porsche to drive, which I enjoy. It always runs, it doesn't get fussy, it doesn't run hot, it doesn't leak, it doesn't need an electric fuel pump, doesn't feel fragile, and just acts like a car should act. So I'm going to drive that this summer instead. It's very low-stress. I've been driving it to work every day for the last 10 days or so and it feels like a real car. That's my outlet instead of the Lincoln. I'll keep you posted as things develop here, but it'll be a while... 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 So in my obesssive-compulsive way, I kept turning this problem over in my head until about 4AM Sunday morning when it dawned on me that there might be two ways to skin this particular cat. Instead of tearing the whole water pump out, maybe I can simply remove the back cover and slide the impeller and shaft out the back. Is there enough clearance? I don't know. But that would mean only one new gasket, not 10, and no need to use the cherry-picker to wrestle the generator/water pump assembly back into place. Maybe I can remove the rear cover instead and slide the shaft out that way... Maybe... ...if there's enough room to slide it out the back. Removing that water manifold is relatively easy, so that wouldn't be the end of the world. If I can get the shaft out, I can probably clean it up and make it smooth with a Scotch-Brite pad. I don't believe it's pitted, I think it's just covered in scale from running tap water during the test and tune months. I would also be able to get the packing nut off and either have a new one made or see if my friend Gary at the Canton Classic Car Museum has a good one to spare. He's bailed me out several times with unobtainium parts in the past so perhaps he can come up with the right packing nut so I don't have problems in the future. Then I'll reassemble everything, install fresh packing, a correct nut, and hopefully that'll be it. I figure it's worth a try before tearing everything out of the car, right? 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Matt, not sure if this is a possible solution but another Matt in Melbourne (Australia) is using a more modern style ceramic water pump seal on both sides of his early Dodge water pump in lieu of the old style packing with good success. He has a restoration blog on this forum which you should be able to pick up the blog from the first photo. Not sure whether this could be adapted to this pump but worth a thought. I understand the passion for originality but also the common sense approach to sanity! Auto engineers were always on the lookout for better methods to improve reliability. And no doubt it could be disguised somehow if that was thought necessary. Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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