The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[Matt Harwood]

OK, back to work. Drove down to the Canton Classic Car Museum to see my friend Gary who hooked me up with a bunch of replacement packing nuts. Looking through his box of spares, there were several different shapes and sizes, so we picked a few that seemed close. One looked pretty new so Gary machined it down to give me some extra clearance. 

 

  

A variety of packing nuts. My too-tall one is on the right, the rest are 

from Gary's stash of spares. I'm thinking the second one from the

right is the winner, even though it's a little taller than the others.

 

Gary chucked one in the lathe and cut it down

a bit to add some clearance.

 

And should anyone doubt Gary's Lincoln credentials, he showed me his current project in the back:

 

Yeah, that's quite likely the second most valuable

Lincoln in the world.

 

Once again, Gary comes through in the clutch and really helps me out. I may give the water pump a try this weekend, since our big open house is the following week and it'll be eating up all my time. If anyone's anywhere near northeast Ohio on the 27th, we'd love to have you join the party.

 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

Assuming the Murphy has iron clad history I agree with you.

[Matt Harwood]

Well, I finally got my head screwed on straight enough to go take another swipe at the Lincoln's water pump. Fortunately, it mostly worked the way I hoped and I did not have to remove the entire assembly from the car. I started by removing the grease fitting on the end cap, then the six nuts holding the end cap to the water pump housing. The big thing was GENTLY coaxing the end cap to come off--if I cracked it, I was SOL because new ones just don't exist (you might recall my original was cracked and crudely brazed back together and Gary at the Museum miraculously had one good one left). But I was careful and lucky and it came off with some light pressure from a small screwdriver. 

 

 

 

End cap came off without a fight and without having

to remove the water manifold (black pipe).

 

With the end cap off, I could gently coax the water pump shaft out of the housing. However, to get the packing nut off the shaft, I also had to remove the woodruff key that locates the coupler disc to the generator. That was a bit of a challenge, but with some patience, I was able to remove it without it flying into orbit.

 

Key needed to be removed before the shaft could

slide out and the packing nut removed. Note the

set screw on the fiber disc bracket.

 

Unfortunately, once I could slide the shaft out, I discovered that the impeller DOES hit the manifold, preventing me from removing it entirely. I started removing the manifold but before I pulled it all the way apart (which would necessitate a bunch of new gaskets), I decided to try to fit some of the new packing nuts and see if they would tighten properly. 

 

When I had the water pump off six months ago and started down this path, I re-packed it with two new graphite rings. It still leaked although I now think that I didn't have the nut tight enough. When I took it apart a month ago, I inserted a third graphite ring and that's when the packing nut wouldn't grab the threads--perhaps too much packing. Leaving the shaft in place, I used Gary's custom-made packing nut to crush all three graphite rings. It threaded into place easily and grabbed the threads without incident. With the packing tight, I backed the nut off and removed it, replacing it with one of the two original-looking nuts from Gary's stash. The threads were good and a shorter nut will ostensibly make it easier to install fresh packing in the future. It threaded right in and I snugged it down. Three graphite rings and a good packing nut, that should definitely help stop the leak, right? 

 

Slightly chewed but good packing nut in place.

 

That done, I replaced the woodruff key. One wrinkle here, however--in turning the engine over to get it positioned just right to install the key, I neglected to note that the set screw was still backed out. As I hit the starter button on the starter motor, the engine turned over, hitched, then continued to turn. The hitch, it turns out, was the set screw breaking off against the water pump housing. Ugh.

 

 

Set screw broke off. Fortunately, a new one is waiting

for me at McMaster-Carr up the street on Monday morning.

 

And that's where I left it. I have to make a new gasket for the end cap, and I can do that, but I'm debating how thick of a gasket to use. When I rebuilt it three years ago after talking to my friend up the street at the industrial pump repair shop, a .047 inch thick gasket gave me .013" end play that he said was ideal. However, the fiber disc between the generator and water pump seems to be putting some considerable pressure on the water pump shaft. I fear that the bronze oilite spacer I used is chewing its way into the brass impeller. Hard to tell by looking at it, but there's a perfect ridge in the impeller right where the oilite washer sits. However, there are no scoring marks and both sides of the oilite washer were still covered with grease from that installation. Is it grinding the impeller or not? Can't tell.

 

 

Oilite washer fits neatly into a groove in the impeller (arrow). Is it

just coincidence that it fits perfectly or has it been grinding

on the impeller? Hard to say. There's still grease on both

sides of the washer and no grinding/scoring marks.

 

So I'm debating whether to use the .047" gasket again, or maybe step up to a .062" thick cork gasket to add some clearance inside the pump. 15 thousandths isn't much, and I doubt that the impeller is going to be moving around in there, but I'm still not sure which gasket would be a better choice. I'm leaning towards the thicker cork but I'll have to think on it. Advice is always welcome, too!

 

Ultimately, this is about 3/4 of the job I planned and I'm hoping that's enough. Yes, there might still be some surface corrosion or roughness on the shaft, but the packing should polish it up pretty quickly as long as the shaft isn't damaged or pitted. I'm giving myself about a 60% chance of success here, but at least I'll be able to use the car for the rest of the summer then tear it all apart one more time over the winter and clean up the shaft (if needed). 

 

Edited August 5 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Bloo]

I don't recall which clearances matter in that pump, but I recall well what happened when one of the clearances was out of whack. I can't seem to get my head around this pump design with the flow-through impeller. The impeller probably pushes against the thrust bearing from water pressure, or at least probably would if it could. On the other hand, this being on the back of a generator, I imagine the generator must have some effect on pump endplay when everything is tight. Could shaft expansion be pushing back and taking the endplay out. What would happen if it did? Would that thrust bearing have more load on it or less?

 

 

Edited August 4 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

The water pump is back together and all appears well. I drove it 20 miles and picked up my son, Riley, from work in it. Temperatures were normal at 100 degrees above ambient (170 degrees on the gauge) and there were no scary sounds. All was well.

 

I ended up using the .0625 cork gasket to add a little clearance inside the water pump--it seemed a little tight to me when I took it apart. The fact that everything is normal in the temperature department says to me that clearances are still good. A little extra room is only a good thing in this case. I made a new gasket using a cool circular cutter I bought and they fit perfectly. The holes around the perimeter of the end cap are irregular, so it only fits one way. Still not a difficult gasket to make.

 

 

  

 

 

End cap gasket was easy to make.

 

The hardest part of the job was actually cleaning the old gasket off the end cap mating surfaces. The end cap itself was easy, I just used the wire wheel. But the water pump housing in the car was a challenge. I used a wire wheel attachment on my Dremel to clean things up. A few scars where it slipped around, but I'll touch those up later, I guess. 

 

Cleaning the water pump gasket surface was a challenge.

 

Once everything was clean, I used a little bearing grease on both sides of the gasket, and a lot of water pump grease on the shaft and thrust surfaces inside the pump. Then I slid the gasket into place and then the end cap. I tightened it slowly in a star pattern, careful not to over-torque it and crack it. No problems. I reinstalled the grease fitting and everything was buttoned-up. I tightened the packing nut a bit more and installed the new set screw.

 

New set screw and jam nut.

 

Finished and filled. No leaks.

 

I fired it up and everything seemed normal. No noises, no leaks, nothing that would suggest I made a mistake. After the drive, I checked it again while it was idling and it was no leaking. However, there was a thin smear of graphite on the shaft leaking out of the packing nut. Perhaps I had the nut too tight? I backed it off about a quarter turn and we'll see how that works. 

 

 

A little graphite goo was leaking out of the packing

nut. Cause for concern or no big deal? We'll see...

 

So we'll keep driving it and see what happens, but I'm cautiously optimistic that it's fixed.

Maybe now I'll have time to fix the brakes on Melanie's Chrysler station wagon so she can start driving it again.

 

 

 

Edited August 10 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Great job. Hopefully that is all is needed. Mike

[Matt Harwood]

Melanie and I took the Lincoln to Sunday brunch this morning at a restaurant we've been meaning to try. It's about 40 miles away, so we took a nice, leisurely drive, had a great meal, then took the long way home through the Cleveland MetroParks. About 100 miles on the clock today, incident free. It was a perfect day for a drive--clear skies and temperatures in the low 70s. So comfortable and the car just runs and drives like it should. Very pleased.

 

 

 

[95Cardinal]

That's great news, Matt!

'Tis the season to drive it and enjoy it!

[EmTee]

Sounds great! 

[edinmass]

I have a ceramic seal in my 36 Pierce V-12 I installed in 1990 and 30k ago. It’s still fine and dry as a bone in the dessert. 

[Matt Harwood]

Took the Lincoln and the Porsche to the local cruise night where we're a sponsor. You might recall that this is where the Lincoln won car of the year last summer. It was kind of cool being featured on the windshield cards for 400+ cars.

 

 

We also donated a Corvette go cart for a charity raffle to help kids with cancer. The club did an awesome job restoring it and I believe they raised nearly $20,000 with it. We couldn't stay for the giveaway but I'm sure someone will be thrilled.

 

  

 

We looked around at cars for a few hours and other than someone stealing our folding chairs it was a nice night. Perfect weather, great turnout for the fundraiser, and a chance to drive, which is what I enjoy most.

 

 

I'm posting this from a sub shop so I can take some food home to the boys. Sorry about the formatting.

[TAKerry]

Cars look beautiful, and I suppose its not my place but thanks for donating that Corvette. I am sure the money is needed for the cause. No good deed goes unpunished, but in my case I would have to think to myself, someone else needed those folding chairs more than myself, so double good deed🤔

[Matt Harwood]

Well poop.

 

 

I'll try tightening the packing nut and see if it stops...

[DonMicheletti]

If there s any pitting at all, no matter how small, on the shaft, the packing will fail

[Matt Harwood]

There shouldn't be any pitting on the shaft. It's brand new and stainless.

 

No, what happened here is that the packing nut magically backed itself out of the housing. Just like my mysterious self-tightening idle speed screw, this car seems to do counter-intuitive things with nuts and bolts. The water pump spins clockwise, so technically it should tighten the packing nut. But no, it backed itself off somehow.

 

Packing nut somehow backed it self out of the

housing even though the shaft spins in the

direction of tightening it.

 

Hopefully I can get it to go back into place without any issues or chewing up the threads like last time. At least I know I can replace it without tearing the whole pump out. What's another two days of my time, right?

 

 

[prewarnut]

Matt,

   Could you have undue lengthwise loading or vibration? In other words is there movement or vibration lengthwise? Despite the shaft rotation in a tightening direction because of the high speed and low friction that concept may be outweighed by the vibrational forces. I thought I remember at some point that even bolts tightened in a "correct" direction could be loosened. There is a lot of research on this. I pulled one open access article: Gong, H., Ding, X., Liu, J. et al. Review of research on loosening of threaded fasteners. Friction 10, 335–359 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1007/s40544-021-0497-1

   See page 346 (section 3.3) on torsional loading/vibration. I could be barking up a wrong tree and maybe you have to just Loctite it, but.....

- Dan.

[Bloo]

I was wondering about that. It should take a lot to walk it out in reverse. Also, is it possible the flexible coupler has become un-centered somehow?

Edited August 17 by Bloo (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

That's a possibility too. Could the whole assembly be out of line even though it's a hefty casting? Also for any shaft and bearing If there is uneven heating of the shaft it will bow very slightly in operation. With varying speed/loads a spiral vibration can occur, possibly counter-clockwise in this instance - but I'm just speculating. Search "Morton effect." Good bedtime reading.

Edited August 17 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

After a night of not really sleeping and thinking about this stupid nut, I got up early and went to fix it. To my credit, I wasn't stupid enough to think it would just thread back into place and everything would be OK. I've long since learned that I don't get that kind of luck, not with this car. 

 

And I was right. I spent about an hour trying to get that nut to go back into the housing and it just refused. Sure enough, the threads got mangled sufficiently that I had to give up, just like last time.

 

So I took it apart. Again. Fortunately, I knew how to do it this time and my gasket came off without disintegrating, so some time saved there. I removed the end cap, loosened the set screw, pulled out the woodruff key, slid the shaft out of the housing, and removed the old packing nut. 

 

Now what?

 

Well, I still have a bunch of other packing nuts given to me by my friend Gary. I tried the next shortest one, but it wouldn't grab, either. The problem was the taper at the end of the threads which, ostensibly, should make it easier to thread it into place but instead only made it impossible to grab the threads with the packing in there. So failing that, I turned to the special nut Gary made, which has threads all the way to the end. The only problem? It's got a really thick hex portion that would make it virtually impossible to install packing at some future date (remember, replacing the packing is why I started down this road). So I machined off about 3/4 of the head's thickness, leaving about 1/8" to grab with my water pump wrench. That should be plenty. 

 

Took the nut Gary made for me and machined

the head thinner (arrow). That reduced its overall

length enough that I think I can slip packing

in there at some point in the future. Note that

the threads go all the way to the end of the nut.

 

With that good packing nut in place, I snugged it down pretty well, considerably tighter than before. I reassembled the rest of the pump, including making a new end cap gasket (a good mechanic always makes new gaskets when the opportunity presents itself and I'm getting REALLY good at it). Melanie came over to help out with refilling the system by holding the hood--the heavy-duty prop rod I made bent under the load and failed, dropping the 70-pound hood on my head [again]. So with Melanie holding the hood, I was able to pour 7 gallons of coolant back into the thing. We fired it up and there were no bad sounds, no bad smells, and no dragging on the starter. I had Melanie take it for a 10-mile drive while I cleaned up all the spilled coolant and tools, and she reported that it was running nice and cool: 170-175 degrees on an 80-degree day. There was a little blob of graphite/grease in the water pump basin when she got back, but no leaks. I'm going to leave it alone and see what happens. I suspect it's a little too tight but if it burns up, it burns up. Don't really care at this point.

 

New nut in place. Seems to be holding. At

least it looks better than that old chewed-up

one that I had before.

 

Realistically, if this is the process I need to go through every time I need fresh packing, I guess it's manageable. It took about 4 hours altogether, which is longer than packing should take, but not a weekend-killer. Draining and filling the cooling system is the part that takes the most time. Meh.

 

So we'll see if this holds. I still don't know why the other nut backed off, but perhaps this new one with more threads will have a better grip. The fact that I tightened it more may also help. If necessary, I guess I can use some safety wire to secure it if it continues to back off. I'll keep an eye on it over the next few drives.

 

[keiser31]

Would there be room for a lock  nut on the brass fitting to keep it from backing out?

[Grimy]

That Hardy disc appears to have seen better days.  Is there any wobble in that connection (1) at idle and (2) and at rpm?

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

What about a drop of blue locktite?  Mike

[Laughing Coyote]

2 hours ago, Grimy said:

That Hardy disc appears to have seen better days.

Seems like it would cause a vibration as it turns and make the nut back out since it's not straight vertically.

[Matt Harwood]

On 8/16/2024 at 7:52 PM, prewarnut said:

Matt,

   Could you have undue lengthwise loading or vibration? In other words is there movement or vibration lengthwise? Despite the shaft rotation in a tightening direction because of the high speed and low friction that concept may be outweighed by the vibrational forces. I thought I remember at some point that even bolts tightened in a "correct" direction could be loosened. There is a lot of research on this. I pulled one open access article: Gong, H., Ding, X., Liu, J. et al. Review of research on loosening of threaded fasteners. Friction 10, 335–359 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1007/s40544-021-0497-1

   See page 346 (section 3.3) on torsional loading/vibration. I could be barking up a wrong tree and maybe you have to just Loctite it, but.....

- Dan.

I thought of that. I have a friend who is a NASA engineer who came with us on a day tour last year in this car. Several times the idle increased significantly, as the idle set screw actually TIGHTENED itself even against a spring under the screw head. He had the same thought as you did--a perfect harmonic was affecting just that screw and causing it to tighten itself. I added a jam nut and cured the problem, but it sure was odd. Could that be the case here? Perhaps, but probably in conjunction with other factors (below). 

 

3 hours ago, keiser31 said:

Would there be room for a lock  nut on the brass fitting to keep it from backing out?

Unfortunately, it's pipe threads, so a nut may be problematic. And getting one skinny enough to fit on there while still being able to fully tighten the packing nut may be impossible. 

 

1 hour ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

What about a drop of blue locktite?  Mike

My mechanic suggested that and I thought about it. But again, the packing nut needs to be periodically tightened so the Lok-Tite would be a one-time solution. 

 

I'm fairly confident that this new nut will hold in place. Between having two fewer courses of thread meant that the other nut was just barely holding on. It probably didn't take much to get it to shake loose. This new packing nut is holding on with several more courses of thread and I tightened it considerably tighter. I don't think it's going anywhere, but I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it. 

 

3 hours ago, Grimy said:

That Hardy disc appears to have seen better days.  Is there any wobble in that connection (1) at idle and (2) and at rpm?

The Hardy disc is actually pretty recent. I installed it when I started testing the first engine. It's new. It looks a little ragged because I had to cut it down to fit--I used a sanding drum on my drill press to shave off rubber and reduce the radius of the disc. But it's flexible and recent.

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Seems like it would cause a vibration as it turns and make the nut back out since it's not straight vertically.

Possible, but the bracket attached to the Hardy disc keeps everything aligned. The shaft of the generator meets the shaft of the water pump in the middle with about 1/16" between them. So they are permanently aligned via the metal brackets holding the Hardy disc. The disc merely permits some torsional flexibility between the generator and the water pump, but the metal bracket actually aligns them properly. It's not inducing any wobble to the shaft. Does that make sense? 

 

The water pump shaft fits in the center hole, so

the shafts are aligned by the bracket, not the

Hardy disc.

Thank you for the suggestions, everyone. It means a lot to know that you're all paying attention and willing to help out. Hopefully this is the winning combination that keeps the coolant inside the engine. 

 

 

Edited August 18 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Is the Hardy disc out of balance after your mods?  If so, that can set up a destructive vibration.  Can you post a video of that connection at idle and at, say 1500 rpm?

[Matt Harwood]

11 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Is the Hardy disc out of balance after your mods?  If so, that can set up a destructive vibration.  Can you post a video of that connection at idle and at, say 1500 rpm?

Here you go!

 

 

[Grimy]

48 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Here you go!

 

 

Thank you, Matt.  Especially towards the end of the clip, it looks out of balance to me. 'Twere it mine, I'd have a new disc professionally made to a suitable OD.  What do the rest of Matt's friends think?

[Roger Zimmermann]

For what I could see, the disc is rotating like an egg. Is that sufficient to induce vibration? When looking at a previous picture, that disc is looking good.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Matt, what size pipe thread? If it’s a common size, you could use an electric conduit nut. They are generally about an eighth inch thick. Mike

[drhach]

Is there space to put a thin jam nut on the packing nut? That would allow you to adjust it without having to loctite it every time. 

[Matt Harwood]

Who makes Hardy discs? The one I have now is the closest I could find anywhere. It's about the same thickness and had the same bolt circle as the original. I don't really think it's causing the problem--it looks wobbly but it's not. And installing it would require another major tear-down including removing the generator. But if I can get a new one made, I would be willing to do so. Anyone have a source?

[EmTee]

Another variable is the flexibility of the rag disk material.  If too stiff then vibration transmitted due to any misalignment would be greater than with a more flexible disk.  Just grasping at straws...

[AB-Buff]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Who makes Hardy discs? The one I have now is the closest I could find anywhere. It's about the same thickness and had the same bolt circle as the original. I don't really think it's causing the problem--it looks wobbly but it's not. And installing it would require another major tear-down including removing the generator. But if I can get a new one made, I would be willing to do so. Anyone have a source?

You need to start calling Ray Theriault. This is what he said when I asked if he had these.
 

Absolutely at $35.00 plus shipping.😁😁😁

[AB-Buff]

One more thing on the nut on your water pump, it should be fine dry if everything is right. I have absolutely no issues with mine. I’ve only tweaked it once in 5000 miles of driving it. But if you are worried about it unscrewing again, take a dab, just a little bit of permitiex soft set, not hard but the soft setting it’ll be like putting a little bit of molasses on it. It won’t come loose.

[wayne sheldon]

Harmonics can drive one absolutely crazy! They can and often do the weirdest things. Working for three decades in communications systems contracting, I worked on underground construction as well as Radio Frequency electro magnetic field effects and fault finding. A very wide range of harmonics and frequency phenomenon.

One time, while running an industrial air compressor (used in underground construction), I noticed a loose nut on a long bolt holding the side paneling in place. The running RPM was fluctuating slightly, and the nut for a couple minutes ran up and down the bolt again and again and again. A slight burr on the end of the bolt kept the nut from flying off for a short while, as it kept going down and up over and over again. Simply due to loose throttle linkage allowing the RPM to vary which changed the harmonic value and in turn the direction it would spin the nut. After a couple minutes, the nut had hit the burr enough times that it pushed past and literally flew off the end of the bolt. 

A truly bizarre sight I will remember for the rest of my days. And one of dozens of stories I sometimes tell about the weird affects of harmonics.

[edinmass]

Matt make the drive disks out of multiple pieces of leather. Like I did with my 1917 white. It’s in the thread somewhere. I made mine during Covid so I got the material from McMaster Car. I got thinner leather so I could make it three ply. 

Edited August 20 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here you go. I actually found the photo in less than 30 seconds.

[BuickTom87]

On 7/17/2024 at 5:04 PM, Matt Harwood said:

OK, back to work. Drove down to the Canton Classic Car Museum to see my friend Gary who hooked me up with a bunch of replacement packing nuts. Looking through his box of spares, there were several different shapes and sizes, so we picked a few that seemed close. One looked pretty new so Gary machined it down to give me some extra clearance. 

 

  

A variety of packing nuts. My too-tall one is on the right, the rest are 

from Gary's stash of spares. I'm thinking the second one from the

right is the winner, even though it's a little taller than the others.

 

Gary chucked one in the lathe and cut it down

a bit to add some clearance.

 

And should anyone doubt Gary's Lincoln credentials, he showed me his current project in the back:

 

Yeah, that's quite likely the second most valuable

Lincoln in the world.

 

Once again, Gary comes through in the clutch and really helps me out. I may give the water pump a try this weekend, since our big open house is the following week and it'll be eating up all my time. If anyone's anywhere near northeast Ohio on the 27th, we'd love to have you join the party.

 

 

 

 

That Lincoln is absolutely beautiful.. I still like your Lincoln better though 

[Ruppshop]

excuse my interruption, but by any chance dose anyone have a wiring diagram? I'm working on converting his 35 Lincoln over to 12v so it can get turn signals but I'm running into some issues any help would be much appreciated .

[AB-Buff]

I have this one on my phone. I can probably take a better one later this afternoon.