Electric Mustang SUV is Ford playing with Fire with brand name ? ?

[Mark Gregory]

Why did they not pick another name why Mustang ?

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7696703/Ford-unveils-new-ELECTRIC-Mustang-SUV-body-competes-Tesla-European-automakers.html

Ford unveils new ELECTRIC Mustang with an SUV body to compete with Tesla and European manufacturers

• The number two  automaker in the United States after General Motors unveiled an electric version of its classic 'pony car' - but it is designed as an SUV
• The 2020 Mustang Mach E will go on sale next year for about $45,000, and will be eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit for some buyers
• The Mach E, like it's gasoline-powered cousin, can still perform, going from 0 to 60 miles-per-hour in 'the mid 3-second range' 
• Mach E also will come with an estimated 459 horsepower, according to specs provided by Ford 
• Fully-charged Mach E's have a range of about 300 miles, using an extended-range battery and rear-wheel drive. There is also an all-wheel drive version
• Ford is taking the chance that a large, electric version of its classic Mustang will find a place alongside electrified SUVs made by Tesla and other EV rivals

[Lebowski]

A 4 door Mustang? I don't think so.... 

[Matt Harwood]

I would wager that this is based more on economics than marketing. Ford, like most of the other domestic auto makers, has decided that trucks are the future and no longer builds any cars to sell in the US except muscle cars like the Mustang. Therefore, if they want to build a car-based SUV, or a SUV that seems like a car, or whatever they're calling it, it either has to be based on an existing model or it has to be a new model that needs to be crash tested and re-certified and all that. By using the Mustang's platform they were able to skip all those expensive tests and just put the thing out there and start making money. The problem is that they still have to call it a Mustang, since that's the platform on which it's based. I recall that Nissan, when introducing the Altima, had the same problem. On early cars, you could see a little, tiny "STANZA" badge because it was technically a Nissan Stanza Altima to avoid these same certification hassles.

 

I'll ignore the glaring foolishness of only building trucks in a world where gas will only get more expensive and say simply that with no other car platforms available, this was the only way Ford was going to build an electric SUV with sporty performance.

[bryankazmer]

"a four door Mustang"?

remember when the same reaction was to " a four door Porsche" or "a Jaguar SUV"?

Ford is betting that the gain by using the name in a segment they care about exceeds the loss by trashing the brand in its original segment, which they don't care about.  Classic problem of brand extension.  Non-letter Chrysler 300.  Packard 120.

[auburnseeker]

Actually looking at History,  every top of the line super sporty model seems to have just about been relinquished to the base model cheap line up car before the companies drove the final stake in them.  

Olds Starfire

Buick Skylark

Chevy Impala the first time around. 

Ford Thunderbird.

Actually Ford nearly killed it with the Mustang II the first time,  until the Fox body saved it. 

[trini]

That means you cannot go too far, just shopping around the neighbourhood. So you must have a second  gasoline powered car for long distance  Travel. What about insurance cost ? Will there be "filling stations along the way ? How long will it take to "charge up" A viable electric car is a looooong way coming.

[WQ59B]

>>"Ford, like most of the other domestic auto makers, has decided that trucks are the future..."<<
They are the present; 71% of the USDM and still climbing. It's kinda why all the foreign brands have jumped hard on the truck/SUV/CUV segments, too. It's certainly not an arbitrary, baseless decision.

 

>>"if they want to build a car-based SUV, or a SUV that seems like a car, or whatever they're calling it, it either has to be based on an existing model or it has to be a new model that needs to be crash tested and re-certified and all that. By using the Mustang's platform they were able to skip all those expensive tests and just put the thing out there and start making money."<<

It doesn't go by model name and it's not a Mustang chassis. It'll go thru all the certification processes like any other new vehicle.
The problem is, no one makes a profit on electric vehicles, so the money making thing is the big question mark.

- - - - -
This actually makes a lot of sense. First, it's an additional model, not a Mustang replacement. Second, with sedans' volume crashing (Accord down 42% in just FIVE years), inevitably there will come a point where the car based CUV and the car will evolve into one vehicle, rather than 2 closely-related ones. Once upon a time an Suv meant a BOF, V8 / 16-MPG Explorer and little else. This is literally the future going forward.

[1912Staver]

I have seen the future...….now how can I un - see it.  Why do the masses all want to have a lumbering behemoth ? My first car was a MGB , replaced with a MGA. I still really like small, decent handling cars. Some things I will never understand.

I really liked my 1966 Mustang, I would own another apart from the current cost to buy one. It would have to be a GT Coupe or Fastback and preferably with a 5 speed swap. But these days way out of my price range. Great cars !

Greg in Canada

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, trini said:

That means you cannot go too far, just shopping around the neighbourhood. So you must have a second  gasoline powered car for long distance  Travel. What about insurance cost ? Will there be "filling stations along the way ? How long will it take to "charge up" A viable electric car is a looooong way coming.

 

What "neighborhood" do you live in where "local" shopping is more than 150 miles away? Modern electric cars aren't those weird little wedge-shaped things from the '70s using golf cart batteries. Ford is claiming a 300 mile range for this vehicle and even if they're off by as much as 50% (very unlikely), 150 miles on a charge is enough to get most people to and from work for a week (the average American's commute is just under 20 miles a day). That range would last me almost a month of commuting without a charge, unlike my current car which requires a fill-up every two to three weeks. There are three Teslas in my parking lot being used by guys who seem to drive them to work every day without issues, and they're wealthy enough to own something else if the electric car wasn't cutting it. Yet they drive the Teslas every day. That doesn't strike me as a non-viable electric car.

 

In fact, electric cars are becoming more viable by the day. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're not appealing to a large number of consumers and they aren't improving by leaps and bounds--electric cars are about where internal combustion cars were in 1925. They have the basics pretty much figured out, they're reliable, now they just have to make them better. My neighbor has a used Nissan Leaf that he drives to work every day, winter and summer, and all he has to do is connect it to the extension cord hanging next to the car whenever he gets home from work in the evening. He says his electric bill went up about $25/month, less than one tank of gas in his wife's Subaru. How is that not awesome?

 

I recon there were guys with big hats looking at early automobiles farting through town and wondering what kind of fool would want one of those when a horse could travel all day with just free grass and water without having to find an obscure "gas station" and buy "gasoline." Then cars got better and those guys ended up eating their hats.

 

The only thing that's constant is change. Stick your head in the sand and be swept away by the tide or pay attention and realize that embracing the change can often make things better.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, bryankazmer said:

"a four door Mustang"?

remember when the same reaction was to " a four door Porsche" or "a Jaguar SUV"?

 

But, according to the German automakers, they are just "four door coupes". 🙄

 

This "Mustang" branding reminds me of how Oldsmobile branded nearly all of their car lines "Cutlass-something" in the 1980s. How'd that work out for them?

[JACK M]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The problem is that they still have to call it a Mustang, since that's the platform on which it's based.

 

Well, They should have called it a Falcon then.

[WQ59B]

32 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

...electric cars are becoming more viable by the day. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're not appealing to a large number of consumers and they aren't improving by leaps and bounds--electric cars are about where internal combustion cars were in 1925. They have the basics pretty much figured out, they're reliable, now they just have to make them better.

There are currently 45 full electrics or battery/gas hybrid models on the market and the Prius has been here for 20 years now.
These 45 models make up a mere 2% of the USDM. The do NOT appeal to a "large" number of consumers, at least not to those that are willing to sign the bottom line.
'Analysts' are predicting a majority of vehicle sales to be EV in 20 years. The math, as plotted, says closer to 500 years.

 

Or, if you prefer; 'it feels like EVs are where steam cars were in 1925'.

Edited November 18, 2019 by WQ59B (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I Therefore, if they want to build a car-based SUV, or a SUV that seems like a car, or whatever they're calling it, it either has to be based on an existing model or it has to be a new model that needs to be crash tested and re-certified and all that. By using the Mustang's platform they were able to skip all those expensive tests and just put the thing out there and start making money. The problem is that they still have to call it a Mustang, since that's the platform on which it's based.

 

HUH???

 

From Autoweek:

 

It sits on all-new architecture, rides on all-new suspension and the only passing resemblance to any Mustang ever made is that blocked-off-grille front end and the semi-wavy hood.

 

https://autoweek.com/article/hybrid-electric-vehicles/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-isnt-mustang-its-very-good-ev-crossover?utm_source=daily-drive&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20191118&utm_content=hero-headline

 

And sorry, but this new vehicle needs to undergo the complete NHTSA regimen of crash and safety tests, even it it did share some Mustang components. The structure is COMPLETELY different. Nothing from earlier tests applies.

 

[CarNucopia]

I’ll guess the number of people in this thread who have purchased a new Mustang in the last ten years or will purchase one in the future  is somewhere between 0 and 1.

[Matt Harwood]

I was just speculating on why Ford might have named an SUV "Mustang."

 

"They don't seem to know what they're doing" didn't seem like a coherent argument.

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

There are currently 45 full electrics or battery/gas hybrid models on the market and the Prius has been here for 20 years now.
These 45 models make up a mere 2% of the USDM. The do NOT appeal to a "large" number of consumers, at least not to those that are willing to sign the bottom line.
'Analysts' are predicting a majority of vehicle sales to be EV in 20 years. The math, as plotted, says closer to 500 years.

 

Or, if you prefer; 'it feels like EVs are where steam cars were in 1925'.

 

[bryankazmer]

SAE did an article about taking an electric from Pittsburg to Detroit and back.

One issue was the highly variable cost of charging - sometimes much more than home rates.  The other was the time to recharge.

So currently if you are OK with about 150 - 250 miles in a day, electric technology works now.  For longer trips, recharging is much slower than refueling with gas.

[1937hd45]

If I'm around in 20 years and could get one used, I might think about it, don't hold your breath. Bob 

[TerryB]

Looks somewhat like the Jaguar E pace that is out now and the Tesla model Y that will be out soon.  In my little corner of the world where Amish horse and buggies still travel on our roads it’s not uncommon to see several electric cars from Tesla, Nissan and BMW daily. They are not the majority by any means but they are not unicorns either.  I’m sure this thread will degrade as others have in the past over the future of transportation but one thing is for sure, transportation will evolve as it has over the past 120 years.

[1912Staver]

So far I have received almost 10 years of virtually trouble free { crank position sensor would every now and then not send a signal, $35.00 service charge, sensor $0.00   }, long commute daily. 2010 Accent, $10,000 Cdn, and very good gas mileage. 1.5 dohc, 5 speed.

The cheapest electric on the Canadian market is near $40,000 even with the incentives. That extra $30,000.00 buys a lot of gas. 

Guess I am going to be swept away, but I definitely can't afford the high price of a "cheap " electric plus a car hobby. 1 + 1 is never going to equal 3 or 4, just cant make $5.00 pay a $15.00 cost.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

[1937hd45]

You'll see me in an electric when the Amish replace their buggies with one. Bob 

[ply33]

1 hour ago, bryankazmer said:

SAE did an article about taking an electric from Pittsburg to Detroit and back.

One issue was the highly variable cost of charging - sometimes much more than home rates.  The other was the time to recharge.

So currently if you are OK with about 150 - 250 miles in a day, electric technology works now.  For longer trips, recharging is much slower than refueling with gas.

 

I find it interesting to play around with the "A better route planner" website. There seems to be a fairly big performance gap between various EVs both in terms of range and in terms of how fast they can be charged. Out of curiosity, I plugged in a Tesla Model 3 AWD long range model and asked for a route from LA to SF. First route it gave me had two stops to recharge one for 10 minutes and the other for 14 minutes. Adding 24 minutes to a 5 or 6 hour drive isn't real good but not real bad either. One of the stops, at about half-way, was at the Harris Ranch exit where lots of people like to stop for a meal anyway. Telling the route planner that you wanted a longer stop there showed that with a 45 minute charge (and getting out of the Harris Ranch restaurant in under 45 minutes is unlikely anyway) and you wouldn't need any other recharging stops. Cost of charging was listed as $16. For that particular car on that particular route there seems to be no disadvantage to driving it over a gasoline powered car.

 

For LA to the old family home town in Arizona about 500 miles away, it looks like in addition to charging while eating lunch there would be two additional stops totaling 16 minutes added to the drive. Not a real big deal. Total charging cost for trip estimated at $16.64.

 

Edit: From Detroit to Pittsburg that planner shows one stop for 13 minutes costing $3.52 to make the trip one-way. Adding 15 minutes to a 4:30 hour drive isn't too bad.

 

Pick other cars or other routes and your results will vary, but my take away is that we are really close to where an EV is competitive with a gasoline powered car for most people's use. I don't have an EV now and my current "daily driver" is pretty new so it will be many years before I am in a market for a new (or new to me used car) but it really looks like the next time I am in the market an EV would be a consideration.

Edited November 18, 2019 by ply33 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Next thing you know, they will build a four door Dodge Charger. Oh....wait....

[Matt Harwood]

51 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

So far I have received almost 10 years of virtually trouble free { crank position sensor would every now and then not send a signal, $35.00 service charge, sensor $0.00   }, long commute daily. 2010 Accent, $10,000 Cdn, and very good gas mileage. 1.5 dohc, 5 speed.

The cheapest electric on the Canadian market is near $40,000 even with the incentives. That extra $30,000.00 buys a lot of gas. 

Guess I am going to be swept away, but I definitely can't afford the high price of a "cheap " electric plus a car hobby. 1 + 1 is never going to equal 3 or 4, just cant make $5.00 pay a $15.00 cost.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

 

My neighbor paid $11,000 for his Nissan Leaf with 6500 miles on it. It was two years old.

[58L-Y8]

Its the demographics this electric Mustang is aimed at: the same younger, affluent buyers now sporting around in a Tesla, not the typical aging demographic buying their possibly last Mustang.  Not to be ghoulish, but the pony car demographic is aging out and passing, Ford is using whatever brand equity the Mustang has by redefining it for the coming generations who are more interested in and willing to embrace the new technology.

[auburnseeker]

I still say it all sounds fine until you bring in the inevitable disaster,  Flood, Hurricane,  Ice Storm, Forest Fire,   you fill in the blank with all the doom and gloom about how much more violent our weather is getting and you want to rely on a car that has to be plugged in,  when there is NO Power.  Now we all need a big diesel generator to charge our electric car.  Well atleast when they design the mainstream electric pickup, there will be enough room in the bed for the Diesel Generator with no emmissions and 50 Gallon diesel tank to run it. 

[TerryB]

27 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

I still say it all sounds fine until you bring in the inevitable disaster,  Flood, Hurricane,  Ice Storm, Forest Fire,   you fill in the blank with all the doom and gloom about how much more violent our weather is getting and you want to rely on a car that has to be plugged in,  when there is NO Power.  Now we all need a big diesel generator to charge our electric car.  Well atleast when they design the mainstream electric pickup, there will be enough room in the bed for the Diesel Generator with no emmissions and 50 Gallon diesel tank to run it. 

You are probably too young to remember the 1970s Arab oil embargoes.  No natural disasters and still there was little or no oil to be had to make fuel.  Any kind of disaster, natural or man-made, can disrupt life.  A significant flood would make fuel unavailable too, or at least getting it out of storage and into vehicles.  Mad Max comes to mind when talking fuel availability.

[joe_padavano]

55 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

I still say it all sounds fine until you bring in the inevitable disaster,  Flood, Hurricane,  Ice Storm, Forest Fire,   you fill in the blank with all the doom and gloom about how much more violent our weather is getting and you want to rely on a car that has to be plugged in,  when there is NO Power.  Now we all need a big diesel generator to charge our electric car.  Well atleast when they design the mainstream electric pickup, there will be enough room in the bed for the Diesel Generator with no emmissions and 50 Gallon diesel tank to run it. 

 

Um, and how, exactly, will the pumps at a gas station work when there's a power outage? How well does that gasoline work when the underground tank's been inundated with flood water? Sorry, bad comparison.

 

Personally, I'll never own an electric, nor will I ever own a car with at touch screen. The newest car I have is 1985 and it bothers me that it has a computer-controlled carb.

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

My neighbor paid $11,000 for his Nissan Leaf with 6500 miles on it. It was two years old.

Cheapest Leaf currently advertised locally is a 2012 for $10,800 Cdn. 8 years old, close to  100,000 miles { 130,000 KM }.  However there is also a 2016 with 20,000 K for $18,000 Cdn so cheaper than I thought. Only a $8000.00 gas bonus. But generally there is a big difference between the U.S. market and Western Canada. The only thing cheaper here are used big pickups. Several were  going to Washington State each day, but even that seems to have slowed down . 

 

Greg

Edited November 18, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Zimm63]

My mile eater is a 10 year old Prius.  Ugly car, but its not slow or clumsy and gets about 50 mpg.    Good compromise for the driving I do.  Leaving out my wife's 5 year old SUV, my other vehicles are all 25 years + old.  Cooler to be sure, but not nearly as cheap to run the 25K miles I put on the Prius every year.  

 

Full electric?  Depending on the commute, sure.  Long trips, maybe not so much.  

[joe_padavano]

I'll just add that if you want to talk about electric Mustangs, THIS is the one I might be talked into getting...

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/sema-show/a29701672/2019-electric-ford-mustang-lithium-concept-pictures-specs-hp-info/

[auburnseeker]

10 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Its the demographics this electric Mustang is aimed at: the same younger, affluent buyers now sporting around in a Tesla, not the typical aging demographic buying their possibly last Mustang.  Not to be ghoulish, but the pony car demographic is aging out and passing, Ford is using whatever brand equity the Mustang has by redefining it for the coming generations who are more interested in and willing to embrace the new technology.

I actually see alot of young guys buying Mustangs and not so many silver hairs.   The same guys that eventually buy old cars once they realize these are too easy to drive and own. 

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Um, and how, exactly, will the pumps at a gas station work when there's a power outage? How well does that gasoline work when the underground tank's been inundated with flood water? Sorry, bad comparison.

 

Personally, I'll never own an electric, nor will I ever own a car with at touch screen. The newest car I have is 1985 and it bothers me that it has a computer-controlled carb.

They have a generator to run the pumps at some stations and others are above ground.  Plus I can put over 500 gallons here in an above ground tank with a hand pump if need be.  Not much of a problem. 

Now explain how we'll get those batteries charged.  I'll take the petrol. 

[58L-Y8]

2 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

I actually see alot of young guys buying Mustangs and not so many silver hairs.   The same guys that eventually buy old cars once they realize these are too easy to drive and own. 

Maybe up in Lake George, New York that's true, not out in this western area of the state.  Seeing anyone without gray hair in a new Mustang, Challenger or Camaro is rare.  

 

[auburnseeker]

Now looking at those charge times that sounds great,  but look at the number of cars at pumps at a gas station.  How many charge stations (posts) are we going to need to handle the same capacity.  

Now figure we ever are at odds with a foreign nation and a cyber attack hits the power grid.  All electric and we are finished, period.   The non green enemy will have no problem rolling in and taking over our oasis. 

Reminds me of a short CGI film I recently saw where barbarians found fire.  The lost it.  In the meantime a more intelligent man invented a way to make fire.  The less civilized barbarians moved in,  killed him,  wrecked his invention and stole his fire. 

Alot of parallels between the two. 

[auburnseeker]

4 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Maybe up in Lake George, New York that's true, not out in this western area of the state.  Seeing anyone without gray hair in a new Mustang, Challenger or Camaro is rare.  

 

We probably have a much more affluent youth up this way with the vacationers and summer homes. 

[joe_padavano]

13 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

They have a generator to run the pumps at some stations and others are above ground.  Plus I can put over 500 gallons here in an above ground tank with a hand pump if need be.  Not much of a problem. 

Now explain how we'll get those batteries charged.  I'll take the petrol. 

 

Let's see, GENERATORS to power the pumps....'

 

No, I have no idea how one could charge an electric vehicle in a similar situation. 🙄

 

And, yeah I want to see your 500 gallon underground home gasoline tank. Good luck with that.

[Matt Harwood]

21 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

I actually see alot of young guys buying Mustangs and not so many silver hairs.   The same guys that eventually buy old cars once they realize these are too easy to drive and own. 

 

"This car is too reliable and easy to drive, and I hate that I don't need to work on it all the time," said nobody, ever.

 

 

[auburnseeker]

3 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

"This car is too reliable and easy to drive, and I hate that I don't need to work on it all the time," said nobody, ever.

 

 

I don't know,  from the choice of cars I have made,  I would fit that segment of the hobby pretty well.  I avoid resto rods and more reliable easy to get parts for stuff in favor of the challenge. Why do you think i sold the Ford.  I could order the whole thing from Drake.  Now the Dodge a little more challenging.  The Cord ,  alot more, especially on a budget.  

 

Of course the real reason for old cars is because we don't want to pull up to the light with the same exact car as every other guy.  Just like you mentioned about the Chrysler wagon at the Woodward dream cruise compared to the Charger, Mustang crowd that flowed by in a steady stream. 

[auburnseeker]

15 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Let's see, GENERATORS to power the pumps....'

 

No, I have no idea how one could charge an electric vehicle in a similar situation. 🙄

 

And, yeah I want to see your 500 gallon underground home gasoline tank. Good luck with that.

You put in two 275 gallon above ground tanks. not real difficult.  I have one for my Kerosene for the shop.  One would be enough though as you probably aren't doing a ton of driving if the area is in a state of emergency.  Hell my Dad had a 275 in the back yard (above ground, why would you bury them in this day and age with the crazy enviro nazis) Got the gas for free from a neighbor that had an inground tank with gas they gave us so they could pull the tank as it had been buried for decades and they were selling the house.  Used it in my 68 Pontiac Strato Chief with a Chevy 6 and powerglide in 1994 for much of a winter.  Of course it was real gas and not corn infused so there wasn't the worry about shelf life.  Sure was nice to pull up to the free station,  insert the nozzle and pump 20 gallons in for free,  just the effort of cranking the pump.  Put 20 gallons in pretty quick.  As a bonus you would have plenty of gas to run your saws and even a generator for your household stuff.  Often think of getting a big generator just in case around here,  but we rarely lose power for long as we are on the main grid for the supermarket and gas stations, so they get us up and going first unless replacing a pole on our grid.

 

 

What kind of generator is one going to need to charge the EV?  If we are charging with Generators,  doesn't that negate the EV advantage?  Many people can barely afford gas.  Do you think they are going to be able to afford the generators and have the stand by gas to run them?  People put $5 in gas in their car because that's all they have,  not because they like stopping at the gas station.  I'm surprised by the few number of people that pay at the pump and still go inside to pay so you know they probably have no access to credit or the funds to pay more than $5.