TerryB Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 33 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: If electrics are so popular how come there is never a line of them at the recharging plugs? Bob Depends where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Well if i lived in Baltimore closer to the coast and lower to sea level and much higher population than me I would be more afraid than I am here in the Adirondacks over 1000 feet above sea level. Civil unrest is a sure way for the power to get knocked out. But regardless of where you live if you are North of Florida , an ice storm is a real possibility as well as a Tornado anywhere in the country. The ice storm up here actually toppled the huge steel towers you see like dominoes under the weight of the ice on them and the wires. Not sure how the new ones might be designed better, but we have a high tension set of wires running through our back yard and they are still strapped to wooden poles. With 100 foot trees, 50 feet away from them. It's going to be a tough sell to preach how much better electric is when the energy source isn't as portable and proven reliable as Gas or diesel. Yes those could be freak 100 year storms but guess what, you never know when that "100" year cycle is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 (edited) Looks more like this around here. Usually the electric station are all empty when I see them. In fact others like myself say, wow someone is actually using it. I wonder how long before the person sees a return on their investment that put the station in. Probably mostly subsidized. Edited November 20, 2019 by auburnseeker (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Or you have to deal with those who want to make life difficult. Also a well known growing issue with EV ownership. Remember most big pickup trucks are emissions and fuel mileage exempt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 minute ago, auburnseeker said: Looks more like this around here. We have Sheetz stores locally. The bigger lineups are for food rather than gasoline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 These people don't look like they are buying food. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, TerryB said: Or you have to deal with those who want to make life difficult. Also a well known growing issue with EV ownership. Remember most big pickup trucks are emissions and fuel mileage exempt. Well when it's the only place to park while waiting for an open pump to get your diesel because nobody is using them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 No, it’s actual intimidation. Well documented and part of a strange mentality of trying to bully away something they don’t like, similar to Frankenstein and the townspeople reaction with their pitchforks and torches. I cant show you long lines at the gas pumps here as they really don’t exist unless a winter storm or hurricane is forecast. Yes, I’m somewhat rural, not as much as you but still not like Philadelphia or Washington. What I do see is food is sold in big quantities at Sheetz. Our local thoughts are they will be a place that sell fast food first and gas second especially as fuel efficiency and electric make buying gas less profitable. So anyway, back to the electric Mustang. It seems to be an image thing, sort of a carryover effect to sell something that has the name but no relation to the actual vehicle whose name it shares. It certainly generated a lot of buzz here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryankazmer Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I don't think pick-ups are exempt - they are held to a lesser requirement. So essentially the government subsidizes them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Just now, bryankazmer said: I don't think pick-ups are exempt - they are held to a lesser requirement. So essentially the government subsidizes them too. When I looked at new trucks, and it’s been quite a while, the spot on the window label for EPA mileage was marked exempt for the big pickups over some stated GVW. That allowed trucking to be exempt from meeting corporate average fuel economy numbers. I never had a need for something like that, my last truck was an F150 with eight foot box and basic 2 dr cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billorn Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 50 minutes ago, auburnseeker said: Looks more like this around here. Usually the electric station are all empty when I see them. In fact others like myself say, wow someone is actually using it. I wonder how long before the person sees a return on their investment that put the station in. Probably mostly subsidized. So wait wait wait. Your saying this kind of line for gas is an advantage to owning a gas car rather than being able to "fill up" at home with electrical? Or are you saying why bother with electric cars that have unused "filling stations" that are always available when you need them when you can have this kind of paradise instead? I mean no offence but I dont get this line of reasoning. 1 hour ago, mercer09 said: but but Bill............. looks like you own a 79 c10. oh alright then! 54 minutes ago, auburnseeker said: Well when it's the only place to park while waiting for an open pump to get your diesel because nobody is using them. No they do it on purpose. All about showing people whose boss I guess. Its the same water heads who shove their faces in their exhaust pipes to prove diesel is great and people are stupid for driving cars that get good mileage. Admit it most of hating on electric cars is because you dont agree with the politics of the people you think who own them. Its OK we all know anyway. You can say it out loud. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 If it's about saving the planet I can't see either Tesla or Ford E Mustangs helping things much. Both seem to promote extremely high power outputs as a major selling point. The only way to have a cleaner future is to have the lowest power practically possible solutions. Not to keep up with the same old I have more money so I have a faster car mentality. Richer = better and how am I going to show everyone how much better I am? Unless you are recharging strictly with solar , wind or hydro power that charge comes from a thermal plant. Just moving the emission from the tail pipe to the power plant stack. A heavy vehicle { big and fast with a big battery pack} takes more energy to move than a small , light slow vehicle. Moving the emission around helps no one from an environmental point of view, it's got to be about reducing energy consumption before it is anything other than a vanity project / easing of consumer conscience exercise. Greg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Maybe it is not about saving the planet. Maybe it is about taking away peoples ability to move freely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 (edited) Maybe it’s about ensuring there still is a planet to move freely on. Yes, I’m a technical person who has seen science put to practice and not everyone who claims science is 100% accurate but I do see issues we can address to help improve those who come after us. We did it with air, water and chemical pollution that were silently killing us. Remember smog filled cities and water that could catch on fire or New York Love Canal ground pollution? Maybe you were too young to realize what we have today took sacrifice and at times legislation to get the environment back on track. I had a car paint job that was stained by acid rain, herd of that happening recently? And yes, none of this, as it goes way off target, addresses the question about using the Mustang name on something that is not a Mustang. I will now go back to observing rather than commenting. It’s clear there are multiple ideas on the future of transportation. Edited November 20, 2019 by TerryB (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modeleh Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 41 minutes ago, 1912Staver said: If it's about saving the planet I can't see either Tesla or Ford E Mustangs helping things much. Both seem to promote extremely high power outputs as a major selling point. The only way to have a cleaner future is to have the lowest power practically possible solutions. Not to keep up with the same old I have more money so I have a faster car mentality. Richer = better and how am I going to show everyone how much better I am? Unless you are recharging strictly with solar , wind or hydro power that charge comes from a thermal plant. Just moving the emission from the tail pipe to the power plant stack. A heavy vehicle { big and fast with a big battery pack} takes more energy to move than a small , light slow vehicle. Moving the emission around helps no one from an environmental point of view, it's got to be about reducing energy consumption before it is anything other than a vanity project / easing of consumer conscience exercise. Greg Good point regarding the high horsepower trend of the latest EVs. My father, a long time (3 different) Prius owner recently bought a dual motor Tesla. He’s in his 70s. Being an electrical engineer these cars are right up his alley, but like many engineers he views the world differently than regular people, often missing the obvious. I really doubt that he even realizes that the absurd power of the Tesla results in a rather inefficient car, the whole reason he was driving the Priuses for low cost per mile use. Would the Tesla be more efficient and have a longer range if it had a smaller engine and thus a lighter car? Yes but they’re selling these things on the performance, the zero to 60 times and so on. Would they be as popular if they were focused strictly on efficiency? I doubt it. This Mustang EV is jumping on the same bandwagon. My daily driver is a 1990 VW 1.6 diesel with 69hp. A car built with efficiency in mind. I paid $1500 for it 5 years ago and it has cost about $400 in maintenance for about 100,000 kms of use. Cars like this aren’t built anymore so I will try and keep it going as long as I can. So many consumer products now are energy wasteful. More power than needed to do the job. Houses used to have 100amp main services then 200, now many are built with twin 200 amp panels. Maybe efficiencies of certain things has got better over the years but it seems like most of us are using way more energy than necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I don't think a Prius is a crime, just not something I am interested in - would rather have a "motorized wheelchair" (Smart Car). Makes perfect sense to some but to me the gas portion should be about 500ccs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Why would anyone own a car that doesn’t have an engine that’s at least eight liters? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 hours ago, TerryB said: Depends where you live. THE BMW electric must be the slowest one to charge there is one behind the town hall plug for 8 hours a day. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, edinmass said: Why would anyone own a car that doesn’t have an engine that’s at least eight liters? Ed Carful or they will mandate Duessy's to have to be retrofitted with Chevy Volt drivetrains. That would be embarrassing to open the hood on a Duessy to show off the round motor with 2 wires coming out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: THE BMW electric must be the slowest one to charge there is one behind the town hall plug for 8 hours a day. Bob Probably because it's a municipal plug they are using and getting the Electric for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amxdreamer Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 4 hours ago, TerryB said: they will be a place that sell fast food first and gas second especially as fuel efficiency and electric make buying gas less profitable. IF and when the electric car starts seeing significant usage and demand increases exponentially for all the required megawatts of power, the price for electricity will increase accordingly. Right now the electric car is just a fad, if it were to become a serious player in the transportation market, the powers that be are going to get their pound of flesh one way or the other. They don't leave money on the table. Which also means your residential and commercial rates will rise accordingly. That "Zero emissions" license plate on that one clearly displays the naivety. Someone needs to show these folks the emissions of a coal burning power plant, which comprises 30% of power plants in the US. Natural gas emits about half the amount of carbon per megawatt. U.S. electricity generation by source, amount, and share of total in 20181 Energy source Billion kWh Share of total Total - all sources 4,171 Fossil fuels (total) 2,653 63.6% Natural gas 1,469 35.2% Coal 1,146 27.5% Petroleum (total) 25 0.6% Petroleum liquids 16 0.4% Petroleum coke 9 0.2% Other gases 13 0.3% Nuclear 807 19.4% Renewables (total) 703 16.9% Hydropower 293 7.0% Wind 273 6.5% Biomass (total) 58 1.4% Wood 41 1.0% Landfill gas 11 0.3% Municipal solid waste (biogenic) 7 0.2% Other biomass waste -1 <0.1% Solar (total) 64 1.5% Photovoltaic 60 1.4% Solar thermal 4 0.1% Geothermal 16 0.4% Pumped storage hydropower3 -6 -0.1% -Ron 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72caddy Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 If anyone is interested I can scan a graph of each major countries power split and projections of power use in the future. It was published in an industry magazine I get at work. Big trucks blocking charging stations on purpose is called "icing". Diesels that purposely emit large plumes of black smoke on bicyclists is called "blowing coal". Back to lurking... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Locomobile said: IF and when the electric car starts seeing significant usage and demand increases exponentially for all the required megawatts of power, the price for electricity will increase accordingly. Right now the electric car is just a fad, if it were to become a serious player in the transportation market, the powers that be are going to get their pound of flesh one way or the other. They don't leave money on the table. Which also means your residential and commercial rates will rise accordingly. That "Zero emissions" license plate on that one clearly displays the naivety. Someone needs to show these folks the emissions of a coal burning power plant, which comprises 30% of power plants in the US. Natural gas emits about half the amount of carbon per megawatt. U.S. electricity generation by source, amount, and share of total in 20181 Energy source Billion kWh Share of total Total - all sources 4,171 Fossil fuels (total) 2,653 63.6% Natural gas 1,469 35.2% Coal 1,146 27.5% Petroleum (total) 25 0.6% Petroleum liquids 16 0.4% Petroleum coke 9 0.2% Other gases 13 0.3% Nuclear 807 19.4% Renewables (total) 703 16.9% Hydropower 293 7.0% Wind 273 6.5% Biomass (total) 58 1.4% Wood 41 1.0% Landfill gas 11 0.3% Municipal solid waste (biogenic) 7 0.2% Other biomass waste -1 <0.1% Solar (total) 64 1.5% Photovoltaic 60 1.4% Solar thermal 4 0.1% Geothermal 16 0.4% Pumped storage hydropower3 -6 -0.1% -Ron That depends on where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 15 hours ago, auburnseeker said: Probably because it's a municipal plug they are using and getting the Electric for free. That is not FREE that would be taxpayer money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 But to encourage you to buy an EV and use it, they at the Gov't level will make concessions with your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, auburnseeker said: But to encourage you to buy an EV and use it, they at the Gov't level will make concessions with your money. Has anyone ever seen any "government" people in electrics? Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: Has anyone ever seen any "government" people in electrics? Bob Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, ply33 said: Yes Other than for propaganda purposes? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I see the huge fleet of small sized Gov't vehicles for the health care workers , building inspectors etc, at the county building and you are right. None of them are plugged in. Of course I can only imagine what each charging station would cost when the Gov't is involved with having it installed. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72caddy Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I just see it as healthy competition in a capitalistic world. Automakers at just hedging their bets today as they need to prepare for a switch. Gasoline has the advantage of infrastructure support, distribution, trained mechanics, etc. At some point do they go back and focus on improving the gas engine or switch? Improvements will only be made through necessity. E.g. My 1972 Caddy gets 7-8mpg with a 500 cubic inch motor. Gas crisis hits (70's) and imports start taking market share. My 2015 Mustang gets 20 mpg with a 302 cubic inch motor in the current horsepower race. How does Ford compete? Great car and a great price. Doesn't win all the checkboxes, but enough to win market share. As many here have commented, automakers can make a car that gets 40-50+ mpg but most are slow and small. The only driver for purchasing one was $$$ savings. These new electrics are touting perf, some style, and larger but they still have higher price tags than gas equivalents. 95% of consumer are always $$$ focused. What is the best value initially and longer term? It would be interesting to know what the dealer network thinking is around this because I don't think dealers make much, if anything, on new cars. The money is in the financing and service side of the business. With electrics they could still compete for the finance side but service is basically non-existent (but their service pay roles go down as well). Ask a Tesla driver where they get service for their car if something is wrong. I have read of many delays in getting parts or finding an "approved" shop nearby. I just reflect back to the 80's when computer stores were still around. You walked in and saw 2 racks of Apple software and 14 racks of Microsoft software. What type of computer did everyone buy? Apple may have been better but they lost market share by considering themselves "better" and not opening their OS to independent developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 GM knows styling. Case in point is the Dustbuster minivan. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 16 hours ago, 72caddy said: If anyone is interested I can scan a graph of each major countries power split and projections of power use in the future. It was published in an industry magazine I get at work. I would be interested in seeing that and thanks for the offer. -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Brass is Best said: Other than for propaganda purposes? Thank you TOTALLY agree. Would be fun to see them try to stuff one of the Extra Large in one. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 On 11/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, billorn said: Where do you live where such bad things happen that you need to flee for your life farther than the range of a electric car? That's not really the point. The car has always represented freedom of unfettered travel (unless you bought a Yugo). I've discussed on here before that the current batteries used depreciate by an alarming amount over a relatively short period of time... It can be summed up by saying an electric car by comparison has a 3 or 4 gallon gas tank when new, it takes 8 hours to fill, and it shrinks by 10-20% each year. I can't buy a new car every year and generally keep a vehicle a number of years. So I don't want to wind up down the road in 5 years with a vehicle with less than a hundred mile range. In 7-10 years the "fuel tank" needs to be replaced at a cost of around 8-12,000 dollars. I calculated it once, it would take like a week and a half to drive a new EV non-stop from Detroit to California. Still sound appealing? Not for me it doesn't. I have no issue with the electric car, I have issue when someone implies, they drive one and so I should be driving one too. You drive what you want and I'll drive what I want. And that is the exact attitude that will kill the electric car again(that and when the subsidies are removed), I'd safely guess that 90% of the country wouldn't have one if you gave it to them. A whole lot of folks have issue that the Government is subsidizing this slow moving train-wreck waiting to happen though, let the free markets work, it's the only thing that works. -Ron 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 People who don't like electric cars are going to believe the half-truths and find reasons why they're stupid--they will never measure up so it's pointless to discuss. Other people who think electric cars are OK will overlook their shortcomings and be optimistic that they will be cured eventually. Whether their faith is misplaced remains to be seen. I personally don't understand hating electric cars, but that's as it was and as it always shall be, just as it is with many things. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 31 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: I personally don't understand hating electric cars, but that's as it was and as it always shall be, just as it is with many things. It's the attitude of the electric car people that I don't have time for, they may think they are SOOOOOO much better, good luck with that mind set. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: It's the attitude of the electric car people that I don't have time for, they may think they are SOOOOOO much better, good luck with that mind set. Bob I take it that you've met every single person who owns an electric car? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Kingsley Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) My main problem with electrics is that they seem to be purposely designed to be devoid of anything amounting to style. I want a car that makes me smile when I look at it, not one that has the personality of a washing machine with wheels added. I have to be honest, I generally don't care what kind of engine is in a car. As long as it's capable of moving under it's own power, that's good enough for me. What I care about is how it looks. Does it look pleasing to me? For 99.9% of electrics, the answer is no. The only one I've seen and like is the Rivian...and that's not even actually available to purchase yet! (My photo, from this year's New York International Auto Show) I like the looks of that. A unique nose design, with even more unique headlights. This has a character, it's got style. I could look at this and have some sort of reaction, and a positive one at that, unlike just about every other electric. (Keep in mind, that the Edsel is one of my all time favorites, so unique is something I'm drawn to) I generally don't travel on long trips all that often, with 4 hours one way being the longest I do every year. The medicine that keeps me alive dictates I have to stop and eat every 5 hours so having to stop and recharge the car could be done while I'm "recharging" myself, so the range is not really a factor for me. Even when we took a family trip to Toledo last month, which ended up with a road trip to Illinois, the longest we drove on any part of the trip without stopping was 4 hours and 12 minutes. The Cataclysm scenario wouldn't matter all that much either, as I'm not all that healthy, I'd be one of the first to go. So It really wouldn't matter. If you were to throw, say, a Detroit Electric, Studebaker electric, Baker Electric, etc. in front of me, I will absolutely stop and take notice. Edited November 21, 2019 by Billy Kingsley left out a word and typoed another. (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: I take it that you've met every single person who owns an electric car? It's the same way with diesel trucks. I see an awful lot of stereo typing going on about all Diesel truck owners so why shouldn't I be allowed to generalize how Electric car guys act or think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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