Thoughts on the National, BCA, etc.

[Thriller]

I could have added these to the thread on the Skyhawk regarding our travels, but thought it was different enough in nature that it made sense to start a new thread.  Of course, what I’m about to type is going to be somewhat rambling.

 

Going in, I was a bit concerned about the size of the meet.  It isn’t that they all need to be massive events like Flint in 2003, but the numbers I’d heard about ahead of time had me wondering a bit what it would be like.  In the end, it was a fun meet.  Intimate would perhaps be a better word than small.  It was great to be able to see and meet friends old and new, meeting some forum members for the first time, and getting re-acquainted with folks I’ve now known for years.  Of course, there was a hole where @MrEarl was expected to be.  We communicate regularly, but I was looking to seeing him again.  It’s been too long.  I did think of Lamar when I noticed the label on the wine we had with dinner tonight - I will need to get a bottle to him.

 

First of all, the drive was fun.  Due to flooding, we got forced off I29 sooner than expected.  The detour laid out was long and headed east, which was the wrong direction, so we headed west and went on smaller highways throug Nebraska.  That was a good decision.  We had some interesting conversations at our stops and found that in the Great Plains in sunny weather in a car without air conditioning, it’s nice to slow down and open the windows without being buffeted by wind.  One thing for certain is that the Skyhawk is due for door weatherstripping.  Assuming I remember, I’m going to try to plan routes like this in the future...perhaps it is aging and the hair colour I’m sporting now, but the slightly slower pace was nice.  We did still do some Interstates, but avoided the toll roads...if states don’t collect enough taxes from us on gasoline and food and souvenirs, then perhaps another model is worth looking at.

 

This was the first time for me to spend in Kansas and Oklahoma.  I’m not quite sure what I was expecting, but they weren’t what I expected.  I guess I was thinking between farm land and range land.  There were many more trees than I anticipated, and considering we had a late spring up here, it was very nice and green.  We saw a variety of wildlife, primarily birds.  There were quite a few heron sightings, as well as turkey vultures, a cardinal, and a Tom turkey on the way home.  I’ve now visited 30 states assuming I counted right.  On our way home, we chatted with a farmer in Strong City, KS who said they got either 24 or 25” (I forget) of rain in May.  That explains why Kansas looked sodden.  If it isn’t the state bird of Kansas, based on our observation, I’d consider the turkey vulture - we saw more there than anywhere else.They are such a massive bird.  

 

Again with the expectations, I wasn’t sure what to expect of the section of Route 66 we travelled while at the meet.  For one, we decided to ride along with Lawrence from northern Alberta...his 1989 Estate Wagon was much more comfortable than the Skyhawk would have been, although it meant we don’t have any photos of our car on the road...perhaps another time.  It was an interesting combination of history with tourist attractions and tourist traps.  Seaba Station was something of a highlight for me and I’m not a motorcycle guy any more.  

 

I really enjoyed the meet.  I could have done with a bit less sun...I got some colour on the two days driving down.  

 

One thing that came to mind is that the club needs to look at something between 400 point and Modified judging.  There are a number of Buicks out there that aren’t modified enough for Modified judging, but they are different enough that they don’t stand a chance in 400 point judging.  Perhaps we could create a “Personalized” class where we could recognize those that have changed wheels, added pinstriping, etc to personalize their cars.  I’m not about hardware, but either the Mild category of Modified judging is too wild/radical, or we ought to create something in between so that these Buicks and their owners can get some recognition.

 

As often as I travel to the USA, I never seem to remember that “How ya doin’?” Is a greeting, not a question.

 

Wherever I travel, I do like to sample the local wines and / or beers.  This trip did not disappoint.  I got to taste an Iowa beer and Oklahoma wine and beer.  Aside from supporting the local economy, it’s trying new things.  I personally find that I prefer the smaller craft or micro-brewery product to the mass-produced stuff.  

 

The Skyhawk performed admirably, never missing a beat, although a

[Thriller]

It seems my iPad keyboard doesn’t want to work any more.

 

The Skyhawk performed well, although was a bit hard starting when warm. Most tanks were between 21 and 26 mpg using the small US gallons. Multiply by 1.2 to get miles per Imperial gallon. The only tank under 20 was including the running around in the meet area. Some of the time we had a tailwind. 

 

Were things perfect? Of course not...humans were involved. Was it a fun meet? Yes indeed. Thanks for the experience and the memories. 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Thriller (see edit history)

[SpecialEducation]

1 hour ago, Thriller said:

 

YOU GOT YOUR GAS CAP BACK!!!

 

Any sign of the hubcap?

 

I should have nominated you for a hard luck award!  lol

 

[SpecialEducation]

1 hour ago, Thriller said:

 

One thing that came to mind is that the club needs to look at something between 400 point and Modified judging.  There are a number of Buicks out there that aren’t modified enough for Modified judging, but they are different enough that they don’t stand a chance in 400 point judging.  Perhaps we could create a “Personalized” class where we could recognize those that have changed wheels, added pinstriping, etc to personalize their cars.  I’m not about hardware, but either the Mild category of Modified judging is too wild/radical, or we ought to create something in between so that these Buicks and their owners can get some recognition.

 

 

 

Yeah, I’m not sure what I would call a class for our ‘56, Ben’s ‘50, or Willie’s ‘55. 

 

“Looks stock, but is far more useful?”

 

Kinda wordy. 

 

“Factory on the outside, party underneath?”

 

”Built to drive, not to win?”

 

”Less polish, more fun?”

 

”Stock-ish?” lol

 

The fact that I put 300 miles on an unrestored, original engined, 63 year old car and it never missed a beat is probably reward enough. 

 

That, and the smile on the faces of one of my favorite professors, his son, and his granddaughter when I took them for a ride on Sunday before heading home... 

Edited June 20, 2019 by SpecialEducation (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I don't want to be a contrarian, but I am satisfied with the peer attention. Willies?  What?

  Derek, was good to see you again. And those GROWN younguns!

 

  Matt, was good to meet you.  Sorry I missed the "gathering".  I missed the text/email. I figured with Lamar not there ,it was off. My loss.

 

  Like Derek, I was initially disappointed in the car numbers. In the end, it was a good show.  Good job, North Texas!!

 

  Ben

[Thriller]

Yes, got the cap back.  I’d called back Friday afternoon to confirm it was there.  The lady at the counter when I got there was the same one who’d answered the phone Tuesday evening.  She said she’d sent a younger employee out to look who couldn’t find it...the next morning, she looked and saw it plain as day on top of the fuel pump.  “I’m short” was the excuse given.

 

I didn’t really car about the hub cap.  I know it came off in Canada, and we retraced our steps, but wasn’t really looking as I was getting anxious to get home.  There are some areas of significant construction, so it may have been destroyed for all I know.

 

I think “Personalized” could work for the in-between Buicks that aren’t modified enough for the Modified Division.  I remember back in 2013 in South Bend, I was told the 1976 Century Indy Pace Car Replica with Centerline wheels (how it was when I bought it) wasn’t modified enough for the Modified Driven class while the Driven Class at the time required Buick wheels.  It didn’t make sense to me, especially since the car was driven 1,000 miles to the meet.  Happily the Brian in charge of Driven judging ignored that rule and awarded it to the car anyway.  

 

In Class M this year, we had Ed’s Wildcat with different wheels and pinstriping on the car.  It’s a very nice car, but enough points were taken off that it didn’t get a bronze.  

 

[38Buick 80C]

6 hours ago, Thriller said:

  Happily the Brian in charge of Driven judging ignored that rule and awarded it to the car anyway. 

 

I think in South Bend I was still the Brian in charge of driven, but SHHHH!!!...you'll get me in trouble...they will have to audit judging next...

Edited June 20, 2019 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Derek,

It was good to see you again and to be able to visit with you.  Your little Skyhawk is quite the car.  Every time I see one of them I think of a Chevy Vega.  Sorry 'bout that.  Now, about your comments on the judging.  Please tell me what is wrong with coming to a meet and just enjoying your friends and checking out the cars and/or trucks?  This judging business is discriminatory and divisive by nature.  What it does is tell an owner that his vehicle is better than yours and that yours simply doesn't measure up.  If you think that you had a good time at this meet, just imagine what a great time you would have if you did not have the pressure of competition hanging over your head.  It would then be all about having fun.  It is truly a sad thing that some folks do not know how to do that.  Just one person's thoughts here.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Y-JobFan]

3 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Derek,

It was good to see you again and to be able to visit with you.  Your little Skyhawk is quite the car.  Every time I see one of them I think of a Chevy Vega.  Sorry 'bout that.  Now, about your comments on the judging.  Please tell me what is wrong with coming to a meet and just enjoying your friends and checking out the cars and/or trucks?  This judging business is discriminatory and divisive by nature.  What it does is tell an owner that his vehicle is better than yours and that yours simply doesn't measure up.  If you think that you had a good time at this meet, just imagine what a great time you would have if you did not have the pressure of competition hanging over your head.  It would then be all about having fun.  It is truly a sad thing that some folks do not know how to do that.  Just one person's thoughts here.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

It's an even playing field, everyone has the same opportunity to either buy or  restore a car to be competitive.  Judging promotes cars being restored correctly, if the 400 formal judging were not a part of the national the quality of cars would suffer after a period of time.  I personally enjoy the competition and judging, don't really give a dang about the other garbage.  The way it is set up it can be enjoyed by all, the people that want judged are happy as they can have their car judged and the people that just want to come and enjoy having their car their can do that as well.  If you feel bad that your car is not up to snuff, then do something about it.  If you have a display and  properly fully restored car sitting beside a driver quality car, everyone is going to know the driver quality one doesn't measure up to the restored one, so what's the difference?? 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Y-JobFan (see edit history)

[NC-car-guy]

34 minutes ago, Y-JobFan said:

It's an even playing field, everyone has the same opportunity to either buy restore a car to be competitive.  Judging promotes cars being restored correctly, if the 400 formal judging were not a part of the national the quality of cars would suffer after a period of time.  I personally enjoy the competition and judging, don't really give a dang about the other garbage.  The way it is set up it can be enjoyed by all, the people that want judged are happy as they can have their car judged and the people that just want to come and enjoy having their car their can do that as well.  If you feel bad that your car is not up to snuff, then do something about it.  If you have a display and  properly fully restored car sitting beside a driver quality car, everyone is going to know the driver quality one doesn't measure up to the restored one, so what's the difference?? 

 

Why does a driver car have to "measure" up?  Statements like that are exactly what keeps drivers and mild modified away from these shows.  I'm in this conundrum with buttercup now. Spending stupid amounts of money to get it to some "measure" so the car or myself are somehow validated?  Scr*w it.  Better places to put my money and I can enjoy my driver cars with my low brow friends that apparently are not doing anything about measuring up either.  I'll stick to local cruise ins where we dont have to measure our ***** to prove a point.

Edited June 20, 2019 by NC-car-guy (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

I thank you Derek for your comments. It was so good to connect with you and Ben at his 1950 in the parking lot just gabbing .

 

"One thing that came to mind is that the club needs to look at something between 400 point and Modified judging.  There are a number of Buicks out there that aren’t modified enough for Modified judging, but they are different enough that they don’t stand a chance in 400 point judging.  Perhaps we could create a “Personalized” class where we could recognize those that have changed wheels, added pinstriping, etc to personalize their cars.  I’m not about hardware, but either the Mild category of Modified judging is too wild/radical, or we ought to create something in between so that these Buicks and their owners can get some recognition." 

 

 I totally understand the other's comments also. As a judge and Team Captain in the A-B and sometimes C class we have quite a span of technology to deal with in evaluations.  We did all the A-B and C. The Barrett's beautiful 1927 Sport Roadster at the event center on display was a joy to behold and I repeatedly told friends that I was glad that we did not have to judge it on the 400 point basis. I assumed it was for Display Only. They restored it to be a period modified car. The techniques and skill employed were admirable. Imagine my dissatisfaction when after completing our duties on the field and hurrying to get our results in for tabulation, I was told by the Meet Chief Judge that our team had to now judge that car! She told us that the Modified team would not do it. We agonized over how to moderate things on the 400 point scale to give proper credit on their outstanding achievement. 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

Having a car judged is optional. Nobody is forced to have a car judged.  People who do so have their reasons, among which, I believe, is a certain amount of " fun " in their view.

 

Likewise, spectators (which includes those who enter a car) will judge each car against what they want to see.  If someone enters a car in 400 point judging, and then looks at other cars, it is likely that they will judge what they see against the 400 point scale.  That is just human nature.  That happens in every event,  including Cruise-in's. 

 

BCA judging is not one car against the other.  It is all cars against a standard.  And it is also very generous.  I know that in the Cadillac club if your car has an option the owner must prove that it works or it loses points.  Think about all those AC empty systems and power antennas that Buick guys can skip by on. 

 

Derek makes a good point.  The main thing is EVERYBODY wants to feel that their car is worthy of recognition. 

 

Modified judging was set up so that it was car vs car judging with only a few winners in each class.  I had heard that that was adjusted to something where more awards could be earned, but do not know it to be a fact, nor how it is supposed to work.

 

But ultimately it is the responsibility of the participant to understand the rules of what they are getting into.  Not everyone will be a winner, and that does not means their entry lacks value.  But it has somehow come to mean that to the guy who walks away empty handed.

 

While another class or category could be beneficial for those cars which have been personalized,  it might be better to issue clear guidelines so that those with personalized cars can understand how their choices will be evaluated during BCA judging.    

[60FlatTop]

Guy Bennett Jr. wrote a piece fully describing the situation and reasoning behind the adoption of the 400 point judging system. I think the BCA Fingerlakes Chapter kicked it off at the 2005 Nationals in Batavia.

 

I can't find Guy's writeup in my files. Maybe someone saved it. This would be a good place to post the reasoning. It was a compelling statement.

Bernie

[NC-car-guy]

I dont mind the judging for those that enter that part of the show. What I don't like is the "judging" of those that don't by those that do.

[JohnD1956]

2 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

What I don't like is the "judging" of those that don't by those that do.

 

This is always going to happen in some way , shape, or form. It even happens at the Cruise-in's.  And it is not unique to just this hobby.  

Further I think it is done by 100% of the population,  just some people are not conscious of, or capable of, being discreet about it.  

 

 

[NC-car-guy]

1 minute ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

This is always going to happen in some way , shape, or form. It even happens at the Cruise-in's.  And it is not unique to just this hobby.  

Further I think it is done by 100% of the population,  just some people are not conscious of, or capable of, being discreet about it.  

 

 

Judging the car ? Sure.  Judging the owner for their decision on how to present their car? I've no time for.

[B Jake Moran]

12 hours ago, Thriller said:

It seems my iPad keyboard doesn’t want to work any more.

 

The Skyhawk performed well, although was a bit hard starting when warm. Most tanks were between 21 and 26 mpg using the small US gallons. Multiply by 1.2 to get miles per Imperial gallon. The only tank under 20 was including the running around in the meet area. Some of the time we had a tailwind. 

 

Were things perfect? Of course not...humans were involved. Was it a fun meet? Yes indeed. Thanks for the experience and the memories. 

 

 

 

I can honestly see why you needed those Skyhawk wheels I spotted on the local CL, just sayin'.

 

But otherwise, this is a nice car, unusual and an important part of Buick history in my opinion.

They just reopened I29 for your information.  That is a great route.  Skirting the low moraine valley with the Loess Hills to your east.  Omaha would be a nice National meet destination. Lots of history, railroad stuff, great driving routes, eateries.

[SpecialEducation]

16 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

I dont mind the judging for those that enter that part of the show. What I don't like is the "judging" of those that don't by those that do.

 

 

I don't think I was in the lot 5 minutes and I had people telling their friends, "Wow, you gotta come look at this," and not in a nice way.

It's a mostly original driver with dents, bondo, and rusty rocker panels.  No, it's not a 400 point car.  Probably not a 100 point car, but you know what?  I drove it 300 miles last week, it ran perfect, and I didn't cry when it got rained on. lol

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for the great travelogue, Derek. Road trips like that are my favorite part of the hobby. Maybe a little risk but always an adventure. We shouldn't be afraid to drive our cars--that's what they want to do!

[NC-car-guy]

Just now, SpecialEducation said:

 

 

I don't think I was in the lot 5 minutes and I had people telling their friends, "Wow, you gotta come look at this," and not in a nice way.
 

That's the uppity crap I hate!   Good for you driving it there and being different!

[B Jake Moran]

Just one member's opinion - National and Regional meets will increase in attendance when judging is de-emphasized and there is sincere, and honest reach out to all of the new members that join, many for one year (one and done's) to attend a National meet and make sure they are welcomed.

 

Provide a discount for National meet attendance to all new members.  You will make it up the 1st year by having more judges to judge YOUR cars and later on when they return. 

The last 2 meets have had far less than 200 registrations, yet were in phenomenal historically high density of membership and attraction locations.  Is there any doubt that 10 to 15 years ago the Midwest City meet would have drawn 300 to 350 cars?   

 

It was my understanding from eyewitnesses that once a car was judged on Saturday that most of them left the show field.  The trailer queens were loaded up, and the contestants waited for the banquet to receive their awards.  Unless the weather was ominous, personally, I would like to be able to walk through the show field like it was a small town festival show - where no one technically leaves until the trophies are handed out. 

 

If you do so, then the non judged and the judged are together in chronological order and instead of dispersing on this important day, all BCA members can mingle, renew friendships, make new ones.   This can certainly be done informally Weds-Friday, but Saturday afternoon is the one best opportunity to attend a BCA Super Bowl.

[JohnD1956]

 

10 minutes ago, SpecialEducation said:

I don't think I was in the lot 5 minutes and I had people telling their friends, "Wow, you gotta come look at this," and not in a nice way

 

It becomes one's prerogative to respond to people like that.  I choose not to.  Let em think what they will.  I assume people like that are just unconscious of common courtesy. 

 

And when I see a perfect car being driven out of a trailer I always think, what a sad affair.  But I choose not to say anything like that out loud.  It's their car, and their way.  Ultimately both cars are at the same event, which make them equal in my eyes.   And I know at least one guy who appreciates my cars for what they are.  That's this guy, the one who drove it there. 

[Jack Welch]

Just an opinion as a member that has participated in the judging program since its inception. All single marque car clubs have judging as a part of their National meets.  The BCA 400 point system works better than most because it is in fact judging an automobile against a standard. A plain black  2 door sedan "stripo" model has exactly the same chance of wining an award as does the yellow convertible in the same class. If a member wants to have his car judged, It is the fairest system I have seen It was originally derived from the AACA system. For members that want to be recognized with an award and have driven their car, they can apply for a driven award. Those that have a totally unrestored car can achieve an archival award. Those that just want to sit and have fun with their friends can just display their car. Those that just want to tour can register for the driving tours , that are usually part of any national Meet, or they can join the BDE and go on an after meet tour. I don't know of any other Club , that offers that many possibilities for "FUN" . 

The one issue is the no man's land of judging as Larry D had stated. That roadster did not really fit in any category. But I had a talk with the owner early on telling him that, and he did new seem to care. He was thrilled that his car was featured . I do not know of a simple solution to the issue of cars that fall through the cracks in the judging process, but I have to go back to the original thought process behind 400 point judging, and that was to insure that a car wining an award at a BCA meet would be "as it left the factory".

The only real trophies that matter to me in my garage are the cars them selves. All that said, I do believe that going forward, the modified cars should be more integrated in to the Chief judges wheelhouse . They currently get judged separately,. and on a different standard than 400 point cars. Another going forward will be "Clone" cars as we get more  more GS cars in the club. That issue came up in Denver last year. No system is perfect. The important thing is that the Club works proactively to correct issues as they come up.

I had included a questionnaire in this year's registration packet inviting comments on the National Meets in general. So far, I have receive back just under thirty replies. The members sending in the forms overwhelmingly (95%) indicate that their favorite reason for attending is seeing their friends and seeing the cars., Other reason were to have their car judged (35%). 

The logic seems clear to me that , if we had no cars, we would not have had attendees. Approximately 25% indicated that their favorite part of a National is the tours . Virtually all replies indicate  the meets should be moved around to various parts of the Country. No one sending back form indicated anything about the meets, they did not like. We got sone good suggestions about other possible activities. The BCA is a healthy Club in every respect. We have room for everyone to enjoy a National Meet with out wanting  to rain on others' parade.  JUST GIVING MY OPINION

[NC-car-guy]

18 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

Just one member's opinion - National and Regional meets will increase in attendance when judging is de-emphasized and there is sincere, and honest reach out to all of the new members that join, many for one year (one and done's) to attend a National meet and make sure they are welcomed.

 

Provide a discount for National meet attendance to all new members.  You will make it up the 1st year by having more judges to judge YOUR cars and later on when they return. 

The last 2 meets have had far less than 200 registrations, yet were in phenomenal historically high density of membership and attraction locations.  Is there any doubt that 10 to 15 years ago the Midwest City meet would have drawn 300 to 350 cars?   

 

It was my understanding from eyewitnesses that once a car was judged on Saturday that most of them left the show field.  The trailer queens were loaded up, and the contestants waited for the banquet to receive their awards.  Unless the weather was ominous, personally, I would like to be able to walk through the show field like it was a small town festival show - where no one technically leaves until the trophies are handed out. 

 

If you do so, then the non judged and the judged are together in chronological order and instead of dispersing on this important day, all BCA members can mingle, renew friendships, make new ones.   This can certainly be done informally Weds-Friday, but Saturday afternoon is the one best opportunity to attend a BCA Super Bowl.

I really like good guys events.  I attend every time in NC.  It casual, friendly, and fun!

[SpecialEducation]

16 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

 

It becomes one's prerogative to respond to people like that.  I choose not to.  Let em think what they will.  I assume people like that are just unconscious of common courtesy. 

 

 

I'd like to think that they didn't know I was the one that brought the car, or they would have been less obvious (maybe).  I just don't understand the need for people to rub their greasy mitts all over my black paint!  lol

 

I was given some 1962 stuff at a swap meet a few years ago.  It was free to me, so I just wanted to pass it along.  I intentionally sought out a '62 that was cared for but noticeably less than perfect, found the owner, and asked if he had any such articles.  When he said "No," I simply said, "You do now," and shook his hand.  I'm not sure how better to spread good will through the club.  

I wasn't too worried about bringing Pepper down because I knew there would be nicer examples of '90 Reattas there, but it was kinda fun to have the nicest '56 Riviera in the lot (only because it was the ONLY '56 Riv in the lot)!  

The one thing the meet convinced me of is that I REALLY need to get Stringfellow to a national!

[Y-JobFan]

2 hours ago, NC-car-guy said:

Why does a driver car have to "measure" up?  Statements like that are exactly what keeps drivers and mild modified away from these shows.  I'm in this conundrum with buttercup now. Spending stupid amounts of money to get it to some "measure" so the car or myself are somehow validated?  Scr*w it.  Better places to put my money and I can enjoy my driver cars with my low brow friends that apparently are not doing anything about measuring up either.  I'll stick to local cruise ins where we don't have to measure our ***** to prove a point.

 

 

I personally agree with you that every car does not need to measure up( but that was the vibe that was being presented)or  be a show car but the owner should not expect or feel bad if they don't get a trophy or complain about those that do.  I have had many driver or clean originals that i have taken to regionals, nationals of multiple makes and organizations but when I take those I am not put off because I don't get a trophy.  I enjoy the judging aspect so I'm a bad person?  I am not into the modified cars so I usually just do a quick walk through although I can appreciate the workmanship, I spend lots of time looking at originals, and love to see the details that owners work so hard to get right on show cars, so I appreciate them all.  If I came across as only liking the restored cars, that is not the case.  A  judged field can have show cars and drivers sitting side by side and everyone is getting exactly what they want, those that want judged are judged, those that don't can sit and enjoy their cars and show without the "pressure of competition hanging over your head"(really?), both win, but somehow it comes back to owners feeling bad because they didn't win a trophy - Grow up.

 

B Jake mentioned non judged meets probably having better turnouts - maybe he doesn't remember all the huge meets we had for years WITH formal judging, lack of turnout has nothing to do with judging.  

 

BCA National meets have enough opportunities for it to be whatever the member happens to be looking for, no one expects everyone to like everything or to participate in everything, it's like a buffet, pick and choose what you want and don't spit on what you don't. 

[Thriller]

3 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Derek,

It was good to see you again and to be able to visit with you.  Your little Skyhawk is quite the car.  Every time I see one of them I think of a Chevy Vega.  Sorry 'bout that.  Now, about your comments on the judging.  Please tell me what is wrong with coming to a meet and just enjoying your friends and checking out the cars and/or trucks?  This judging business is discriminatory and divisive by nature.  What it does is tell an owner that his vehicle is better than yours and that yours simply doesn't measure up.  If you think that you had a good time at this meet, just imagine what a great time you would have if you did not have the pressure of competition hanging over your head.  It would then be all about having fun.  It is truly a sad thing that some folks do not know how to do that.  Just one person's thoughts here.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

 

It was really good to see you and Barbara too Terry.  The people I've met through the hobby are the biggest part of why I keep coming back.  I don't need judging to enjoy the event, but I've had some of my cars judged in different categories, so I continue to participate as a judge as payback / paying it forward to the club.

 

Please note that I don't feel a need to have my cars judged necessarily.  The registration cost for a Display car isn't that much different than to have it judged.  So, if you're effectively paying for the hardware anyway, why not enter?  So then, you wind up with that beautiful 1927 or the personalized Wildcat 4 door that don't stand a chance because they don't fit against the 400 point standard.  Perhaps the big issue is that the Modified Division has set a standard that doesn't allow these cars to be competitive.  I'm not suggesting everyone should go home with an award, nor that everyone wants that...I'd just like to see a category that cars could be entered in that they don't enter the ring with a proverbial hand tied behind their back.

 

We need to be tolerant enough of others having different tastes and priorities and accept all that have an interest in the Buick automobile.

 

The Skyhawk doesn't need the wheels, just the hub caps.  The seller has stopped responding to me.  I need to try again, or turn my attention elsewhere.

 

You can't please everyone all the time.  I just think we ought to have an additional option for those modified cars that aren't modified enough...perhaps that means needing to look at the Modified Division of the BCA, but that's outside my pay grade.  I too heard that some adjustments were made to provide recognition to more of the modified cars this year.  While we can't be all things to everyone, it would be good if we could extend an olive branch so that everyone and their cars are included.

 

I hope to meet Stringfellow some day.  The reality of where I grew up on the Canadian prairies (where winter really exists) is that once closed cars became available, there were very few convertibles...yet now, it's the convertibles that are saved and in demand, regardless of their practicality.  Some of us in the hobby need to save some of the "ordinary" cars too.  There were far more 4 door sedans built through the years yet, particularly in local shows, we don't necessarily see them.

 

 

[dship]

3 minutes ago, Y-JobFan said:

...BCA National meets have enough opportunities for it to be whatever the member happens to be looking for, no one expects everyone to like everything or to participate in everything, it's like a buffet, pick and choose what you want and don't spit on what you don't. 

Very well put...I totally agree!

[Y-JobFan]

1 hour ago, B Jake Moran said:

Just one member's opinion - National and Regional meets will increase in attendance when judging is de-emphasized and there is sincere, and honest reach out to all of the new members that join, many for one year (one and done's) to attend a National meet and make sure they are welcomed.

 

Provide a discount for National meet attendance to all new members.  You will make it up the 1st year by having more judges to judge YOUR cars and later on when they return. 

The last 2 meets have had far less than 200 registrations, yet were in phenomenal historically high density of membership and attraction locations.  Is there any doubt that 10 to 15 years ago the Midwest City meet would have drawn 300 to 350 cars?   

 

It was my understanding from eyewitnesses that once a car was judged on Saturday that most of them left the show field.  The trailer queens were loaded up, and the contestants waited for the banquet to receive their awards.  Unless the weather was ominous, personally, I would like to be able to walk through the show field like it was a small town festival show - where no one technically leaves until the trophies are handed out. 

 

If you do so, then the non judged and the judged are together in chronological order and instead of dispersing on this important day, all BCA members can mingle, renew friendships, make new ones.   This can certainly be done informally Weds-Friday, but Saturday afternoon is the one best opportunity to attend a BCA Super Bowl.

There was a time that cars were not allowed to leave the showfield until a certain time and that was stated in multiple locations and often announced. That fault is with the field committee for not enforcing it if it is still stated.

 

[Terry Wiegand]

The 'pro-judging' people will always say that the vehicles are judged to the factory standard.  That is a fine and noble thought, however, in order to achieve that level of 'correctness', it takes a healthy bank account.  Not everyone has a sizable amount of cash at their disposal to bring their vehicle to that level of perfection.  Think about the young couple with two or three children, a mortgage, and just getting started in the old car hobby.  The interest and desire is there, but, the huge volume of cash required for a 400 point restoration will be years, even decades away, before they can even consider restoring a vehicle.  Somebody mentioned human nature here - it is that human nature that has a lot of people looking down their noses at the less fortunate, or those with less cash available to them.  If that is not divisive or discriminatory then I do not know what is.  It's that old 'my checkbook is bigger than yours' attitude that turns a whole lot of folks off.  I really do not care what the 'trailer queen set' think.  What I think is that it is way cool that Derek jumped in that Skyhawk and drove it hundreds upon hundreds of miles to reconnect with friends, let everyone see the car, and have fun at the same time.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[MrEarl]

3 hours ago, NC-car-guy said:

I'm in this conundrum with buttercup now. Spending stupid amounts of money to get it to some "measure" so the car or myself are somehow validated?  Scr*w it. Better places to put my money and I can enjoy my driver cars with my low brow friends that apparently are not doing anything about measuring up either.  I'll stick to local cruise ins where we dont have to measure our ***** to prove a point.

 

Sad to hear my friend.  I've never really been a restore for show kind of guy myself but certainly appreciate the efforts and dollars spent by those who do restore to factory original. My most appreciation however goes to the original and unmolested "true survivors" of which I've had a few, your Buttercup being my most appreciated. Granted, survivors are rare and are in a class of their own, sort of the "only original once class" or the formal "Archival Class". As planned, I have spent every penny you gave me for Buttercup plus some in turning SouthernBelle into a the purpose built Buick Estate Tow Wagon while still TRYING to retain as much originality to her as possible. I still hope to enter her in an archival judged event someday. But getting back to your comment, I guess my question is "What are you spending on BC to get her to the condition of being able to enter into Archival class judging that you wouldn't be spending on her anyway just to get her to a driver?" A little more attention to detail maybe but does that cost that much. Or perhaps for correct style WW tires instead of just plain driver radials. I think the only validation you're doing with BC is to BC herself. Does she, a 13,000 mile 1954 Buick Roadmaster not deserve the few extra dollars and effort to at least let her stand proud for just one judged car show  before she gets her wheels driven off her?  Tell you what I'll do, any "stupid money" you spend on her that qualifies as money spent to get her to Archival show condition that wouldn't have been spent to get her to a good dependable driver, send me the bill. I'll just consider it as a guilt payment for not having given her her due appreciation all these years. Sound fair? Sounds more than fair to me as I don't think I'll be wearing my billfold out to honor it. Or... she's yours now do with her what you want, we'll still be friends.

Edited June 20, 2019 by MrEarl (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

You guys are worrying way too much about what other people think. Who cares? If your car makes YOU happy, why do other people's opinions matter?

 

You should hear the comments I get once people find out I'm a dealer, regardless of the venue. At that point, everyone feels like they have 100% permission to say whatever horrible thing is on their mind about my cars, no filters. In fact, many act like they HAVE to say something critical about my car, just to show me they know what they're talking about. This isn't a rare or isolated thing. I would also wager that every person here has seen a car they hated at a show and elbowed their buddy as if to say, "Get a load of THAT thing," if not actually saying it out loud. It happens.

 

This Studebaker was at our local cruise night last Tuesday. Melanie took a photo to send to my youngest son, who probably would have liked it (although his tastes are eclectic, anecdote below). How many of you would have walked past this Studebaker without at least nudging your buddy or spouse with a smirk on your face? How many would have stopped to take a photo to show your friends, as we did? But I bet that guy loves it and has fun with it, and there were people around it talking about it all night. So let's not all pretend our own fecal matter don't stink.

 

 

I also recall going to the CLC national meet in Columbus six or seven years ago and my youngest son was about three years old at the time. We walked by a purple early '50s Cadillac with flames and a hood scoop and all kinds of unorthodox modifications. My son, being 3, walked past and said out loud, "I hate your car." He was quickly corrected and told to keep it to himself, but he wasn't wrong. It really was awful. He was merely the only one who said it out loud.

 

Everybody doesn't have to like everything. Some people learn to keep their mouths shut and some are three years old forever. If your car makes you smile, that's all that matters. Everyone else is just whistling in the wind.

 

Who cares what some anonymous schmo in a parking lot thinks?

 

[Terry Wiegand]

Matt H., you are absolutely spot on, but, please do not forget the fact that the human animal is being dealt with here.  Human beings can be the nastiest and cruelest creatures alive and that brings me to my next comment - we like our dog way better than a lot of people that we have had the misfortune to have to be associated with.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[60FlatTop]

46 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

many act like they HAVE to say something critical about my car, just to show me they know what they're talking about. This isn't a rare or isolated thing.

 

You are too sensitive. It is not because you are a dealer. Quite a while ago I decided to have at least one major and very obvious flaw in my car just so's they can get past that point easier.

 

I can draw you pictures of who will make the various comments with surprising accuracy.

 

The more harmless ones will tell you their car is home and not finished, but when it is done it will be nicer.  bet you know this guy.

 

You get to be able to recognize them coming.

[Brad Conley]

Here's a link to the, somewhat correct, hubcaps you need.  They are missing the center medallion,  but those can be found.  $25 a pop.  Worth a look!

 

https://buyusedhubcaps.com/home/shop/13-inch-wheel-hubcaps/hubcaps-for-13-inch-buick-wheels/13-inch-buick-hubcaps-1975-thru-1981/hubcap-c13buic1975_5/

[MRJBUICK]

I am going to wade into the waters here

First the disclaimer

i was not at the national, i wish i could have been, i had a good friend there who has a good take on the hobby feeding me information and pics from the show

we just had our 40th annual local Buick show with 105 Buick's on the field day of show

I was the co chairman of the first show we had with the director and being the current Director ran this show with a dedicated group of members and family and have been part of just about all of the 40 missing just a couple. All shows have been driver peer judging 

i have been to 9 nationals so far judged at 2 and am planning to hopefully attend the next 2 

i do not own a 400 point car but i do have nice respectable cars

just some background to let those know i have some dealings with putting on car shows over the years not being pompous just stating fact

 

After reading all of the above comments there are many valid points being made

first off no matter how hard you try you will never ever please everyone we have tried, you have to find the best balance and that changes like society does over the years

if you become to rigid and don't change it will hurt you but keep the judging it is important see below.

 

When i attend a National i want to hopefully see the best of the best, that is exactly where they should be,(i heard this national had many real nice cars) the big dollar restorations, as i am thinking right next to the original in whatever condition and also the driven let me see the full range of what is there side by side, i want to see it all. i would like to see the years together, but i know this can be difficult in some respects The BCA membership has no requirements other than liking Buick's so welcome everyone to the party, yes some owners might look down on those other cars, tough on them be proud of what you brought, the attitude is their problem, but don't expect a trophy. if you know your car be honest with yourself class it accordingly ( archival,display,driven) when my children started playing sports i always taught them there are winners and losers in everything, if you want to win that is your job to try not someone else

 

You will need to keep judging at a national there is always a group that attends for the trophy, Allentown was nice but that was special i don't think it should be every national

 

Clones belong in the modified class they are not original so go to modified they wont like it but it is not original to how that car came out of the factory (we have had problems with this at our car show also)

speaking of modified we have struggled with this for just about all of the 40 years, if we are judging to how it came from the factory and other than allowed safety items then anything that is not stock is modified. Leave it up to the owner to place himself in the correct class, we tell them that even in peer judging if you made changes its your decision let them get the deductions if they go into stock, of course the real modified's need to be in the modified class, if you try to have classes to appease all modifications you will drive yourself crazy, our benchmark is to stock.

 

As far as this year being light in car count please keep in mind our schools are still in session today in the northeast so you probably excluded members with school age families and maybe grandparents who help shuttle children and teachers, i know this was probably done to help with the heat in the summer but it has to be a consideration in the future.

 

I believe cars should be on the show field till a certain reasonable time, i to have been disappointed when cars clear out to early

 

As far as trailers i drive my cars but it is the owners choice if he can afford it, i respect the driven cars but also understand all of the reasons for trailers including protection from terrible weather and safety concerns

 

It was mentioned in a different thread i think that live facebooking, instagram and twitter need to be considered if you want to attract the youth. But just wet the appetite don't give them to much make them want to show up

 

The best trophy's i get are the conversations with people who are interested in my cars especially when they talk about a family member who's not around anymore and you know they just opened up a bunch of great memories, part of what we do is history many times private history.

 

So I have said some stuff, you may not agree but that's ok, my opinion  

    

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by MRJBUICK (see edit history)

[NC-car-guy]

3 minutes ago, MRJBUICK said:

I am going to wade into the waters here

First the disclaimer

i was not at the national, i wish i could have been, i had a good friend there who has a good take on the hobby feeding me information and pics from the show

we just had our 40th annual local Buick show with 105 Buick's on the field day of show

I was the co chairman of the first show we had with the director and being the current Director ran this show with a dedicated group of members and family and have been part of just about all of the 40 missing just a couple. All shows have been driver peer judging 

i have been to 9 nationals so far judged at 2 and am planning to hopefully attend the next 2 

i do not own a 400 point car but i do have nice respectable cars

just some background to let those know i have some dealings with putting on car shows over the years not being pompous just stating fact

 

After reading all of the above comments there are many valid points being made

first off no matter how hard you try you will never ever please everyone we have tried, you have to find the best balance and that changes like society does over the years

if you become to rigid and don't change it will hurt you but keep the judging it is important see below.

 

When i attend a National i want to hopefully see the best of the best, that is exactly where they should be,(i heard this national had many real nice cars) the big dollar restorations, as i am thinking right next to the original in whatever condition and also the driven let me see the full range of what is there side by side, i want to see it all. i would like to see the years together, but i know this can be difficult in some respects The BCA membership has no requirements other than liking Buick's so welcome everyone to the party, yes some owners might look down on those other cars, tough on them be proud of what you brought, the attitude is their problem, but don't expect a trophy. if you know your car be honest with yourself class it accordingly ( archival,display,driven) when my children started playing sports i always taught them there are winners and losers in everything, if you want to win that is your job to try not someone else

 

You will need to keep judging at a national there is always a group that attends for the trophy, Allentown was nice but that was special i don't think it should be every national

 

Clones belong in the modified class they are not original so go to modified they wont like it but it is not original to how that car came out of the factory (we have had problems with this at our car show also)

speaking of modified we have struggled with this for just about all of the 40 years, if we are judging to how it came from the factory and other than allowed safety items then anything that is not stock is modified. Leave it up to the owner to place himself in the correct class, we tell them that even in peer judging if you made changes its your decision let them get the deductions if they go into stock, of course the real modified's need to be in the modified class, if you try to have classes to appease all modifications you will drive yourself crazy, our benchmark is to stock.

 

As far as this year being light in car count please keep in mind our schools are still in session today in the northeast so you probably excluded members with school age families and maybe grandparents who help shuttle children and teachers, i know this was probably done to help with the heat in the summer but it has to be a consideration in the future.

 

I believe cars should be on the show field till a certain reasonable time, i to have been disappointed when cars clear out to early

 

As far as trailers i drive my cars but it is the owners choice if he can afford it, i respect the driven cars but also understand all of the reasons for trailers including protection from terrible weather and safety concerns

 

It was mentioned in a different thread i think that live facebooking, instagram and twitter need to be considered if you want to attract the youth. But just wet the appetite don't give them to much make them want to show up

 

The best trophy's i get are the conversations with people who are interested in my cars especially when they talk about a family member who's not around anymore and you know they just opened up a bunch of great memories, part of what we do is history many times private history.

 

So I have said some stuff, you may not agree but that's ok, my opinion  

    

 

 

Well said

[Pete Phillips]

The first 400-point judging was in Batavia, NY for the 1989 national meet.

I am a bit frustrated and depressed over the phone call I got this morning from a chapter director who shall remain nameless. He was upset that some of his members did not do better in the judging. They brought home Silver awards instead of Gold and were so upset that they were "crying" at the awards banquet, if you can believe that. It was a phone call of 10-12 minutes of whining and sour grapes. Apparently the only thing these people come to a national meet for is to get a Gold or a New Senior award, and if they don't they think it's the judges' fault. That's pretty sad. I suggested to him that some of his members might want to take a look at their priorities in life, and I"m sure he didn't like that either.

 

I go for the selection of old Buick parts, and the chance to renew friendships with old friends and to see wonderful cars, many of which I have never seen before. Yes, I occasionally enter my car in the 400-point judging, but the best I have ever done is a silver award, and guess what--I do not demean the judges or complain to the meet organizers about it. This is national competition, and if every car that's entered goes home with an award, then the awards aren't worth much. Period.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

33 minutes ago, Pete Phillips said:

The first 400-point judging was in Batavia, NY for the 1989 national meet.

I am a bit frustrated and depressed over the phone call I got this morning from a chapter director who shall remain nameless. He was upset that some of his members did not do better in the judging. They brought home Silver awards instead of Gold and were so upset that they were "crying" at the awards banquet, if you can believe that. It was a phone call of 10-12 minutes of whining and sour grapes. Apparently the only thing these people come to a national meet for is to get a Gold or a New Senior award, and if they don't they think it's the judges' fault. That's pretty sad. I suggested to him that some of his members might want to take a look at their priorities in life, and I"m sure he didn't like that either.

 

I go for the selection of old Buick parts, and the chance to renew friendships with old friends and to see wonderful cars, many of which I have never seen before. Yes, I occasionally enter my car in the 400-point judging, but the best I have ever done is a silver award, and guess what--I do not demean the judges or complain to the meet organizers about it. This is national competition, and if every car that's entered goes home with an award, then the awards aren't worth much. Period.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

 

 Thank you Pete!  Agree, FWIW.

 

  Ben

[Matt Harwood]

I think the judging comments deserve their own thread, but as long as we're discussing it here I do have a few thoughts.

 

One, I know I am not a popular judge because I do not believe in the perfect car. That does not mean I am not a fair judge, but come on, perfect? Very, very few cars can be perfect and none should be. I don't nit-pick, but yes, I think cars judged on the 400-point system should be correct, if not very close to perfect. I look at marque judging like I look at math: either it's right or it's not. You want awards, then your car needs to measure up. Sorry, but that's how it should be.

 

I will admit that I am not terribly familiar with the modified class and its rules, but it has been my experience with modified cars that there is no "correct" or "incorrect." It's all subjective, and at that point it becomes a beauty contest--or worse, a popularity contest. I know there are guidelines such as a Buick engine is required, but whenever I work with local clubs trying to judge modified cars, it all becomes very abstract. The same happens with unrestored survivors--do you dock for deterioration or do you reward older cars for simply existing? Are older cars more "survivor-y" than late models that haven't survived as long, and do they get a bonus for that? I suspect this is why the AACA chose to simply certify HPOF cars rather than subject them to a judging points process. The logistics are nightmarish. But I digress.

 

My point is that trophies shouldn't be the reason anyone does this, but if it is the reason you do it, then you should respect the standards. That's why I wonder how yet another set of standards could work for a set of cars that aren't modified but aren't correct, either. To me, it seems like edging closer to the "everyone gets a trophy" nonsense that they have in kids' baseball games (and how many of you have complained about that?). What is acceptable to have incorrect on a show car? How much of it needs to be right to qualify? I don't think simply watering down the standards so more people can get awards is an answer if we want the 400-point judging of the BCA to be the gold standard for Buicks.

 

No offense to our hosts, but when my '41 Buick Century is finished, it'll win an AACA first prize without much trouble and that'll be nice. But the judging I really care about is the BCA, and that's because it's rigorous and expert on these specific cars. My Limited isn't a trophy car, so I don't enter it in judging. I don't have less fun because of it and I don't enjoy the meets less and I don't feel left out at the banquets. I'm there because I like the cars and the people. I realize not everyone is wired like that, but I would be very troubled to see some other class added that would permit incorrect and deteriorated cars like mine to be recognized as award-winners. It diminishes the value of the club's knowledge base and the expertise that makes it the only standard that matters if you own a Buick. That should matter to everyone, regardless of whether you have your car judged.

 

It isn't a rich-vs-poor thing or whether you have the ability to create a show car in your home garage; it's making sure that the club we all enjoy so much and which gives us all so many benefits continues to be the very best of its kind for the cars we love. The minute the CCCA started handing out 100-point scores and first-place trophies like Halloween candy in response to complaints from guys who spent a lot of money on restorations, well, that's pretty much when I lost interest. Don't do that to the BCA. Please!