twin6

Then and now: where did these prewar cars go?

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Since the topic is "Then and now: where did these prewar cars go?" I can tell you that we display several gems at the Seal Cove Auto Museum that were once owned by pioneers of the old car hobby. 

James Melton: 1913 Peugeot Skiff with coachwork by Labourdette and Melton's 1909 Pierce Arrow.

Bill Harrah: 1915 F.R.P.

Henry Austin Clark Jr.'s:1904 Knox and 1912 Thomas Flyer.

John Hebden (George Waterman): 1908 Model K Ford.

Briggs Cunningham' (Larz Anderson): 1911 American Underslung.

Dr. Samual Scher: 1904 Cadillac and 1905 Pierce Great Arrow. 

George Waterman, Jhon Hebden, and Bill Pollock: 1904 Searchmont.

Thompson Products Auto Album: 1907 Holsman.

Roger Cutting: 1921 Mercer.

Sam Tarnapol: 1904 Pope Hartford. 

Henry C. Wing: 1911 Stanley.

Horns’ Cars of Yesterday: 1909 Stevens-Duryea.

Roland Giroux: 1910 White MM.

Paul Cadwel: 1900 Locomobile.

Murchio's Auto Museum: 1901 DeDion Motorette.

Frank and Pauline Snook: 1917 Crane-Simplex

Ray Rogers and Joel Finn: 1909 Stoddard-Dayton discussed earlier in this topic.

Some of these names are more familiar than others, but all were familiar in the late 1930s through the early 1960s

You can see these cars at the Seal Cove Auto Museum (www.sealcoveautomuseum.org)

If you would like more information about any of these cars, send me an email to: curator@sealcoveautomuseum.org

Roberto

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Roberto, thank you so much for taking time to share this information!  Here is a photo of the White in 1949, not long after Giroux had acquired it from Fred Dundee.  You can just make out where "Dundee Auto Repair" had been on the side of the car.

1949.jpg

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It looks like the ownership of the Stoddard-Dayton could be pushed back one more.  William Gent of Euclid, OH bought the car in rough shape in 1953 and restored it by 1955.  (The original newspaper photo is in color.)1955-08-07_ClevelandPlainDealer_Gent.thumb.jpg.c40a2c0e5195e1d3914a16d38e46be7c.jpg

 

He had it on the Granville rally that year, the same rally that Rodgers had it on in 1956.  Maybe the originally-posted photo shows Gent driving, rather than Rodgers.

 

There's just one sour note in all this.  A list of Stoddard-Dayton owners in published in 1961 showed Ray Rodgers owning 1910 Model 10F roadster, engine #  137.  It also showed William Gent owning 1909 Model 9F speedster, engine # 711.  There are several big differences in appearance between the 1955 newspaper & originally-posted 1955 photos, and the 1958 and later Rodgers photos.  Any Stoddard-Dayton-ophiles able to clear up the potential discrepancy?

Edited by StanleyRegister
correct engine # 137 (see edit history)

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Here are some more photos of the former Dundee, Giroux, 1910 White MM Steamer...

  • Owner Rolan Giroux with the car on the 1965 cover of "The Steam Automobile."
  • After the tragic death of Giroux's wife and son in an automobile accident, his White Steamers were put on sale as advertised in "The Steam Automobile." Richard C. paine Jr., would have acquired the MM at this time.
  • The 1910 as it looks on display at the Seal Cove. (Richard C. Paine Jr. Automobile Charitable rust)

Research Project Photos-47.JPG

Research Project Photos-44.JPG

IMG_4793.jpg

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On 1/18/2019 at 5:55 PM, C Carl said:

Twin6, those two Packards remind me of the pair of late '20s Packard roadsters (one a boat tail), that Sat on the North side of the Sheridan Market for far too many years. North of Seattle on Bothell Way at about the 15+xxx level on the R.H. side Northbound, the market still stands, vacant. I remember the cars back in the late '50s, into the early'60s. They sat for several years, poorly tended. They were tenuously covered in various degrees by canvas tarps in all the misery Seattle precipitation could inflict on them. Maybe some Old Lion who roamed the area in that era knows/remembers.? Harold  ? Anyone ?  Far too valuable even back then for the scrap heap, someone obviously did not value them enough. Maybe after their neglect at the market, they were scrapped.

 

While I am up : What happened to Felix Derjinsky 's Rolls Royce  ?        -   Carl 

 

P.S. Maybe someone up on early 20th century Russian history will know from whom Derjinsky "acquired" the RR, and under what circumstances.

Carl, there are some existing Packard 734 boat tail speedsters (1930) that were in the Pacific Northwest years ago but nothing is coming up so far with a Seattle connection.  I'll keep digging.  The only 1929 speedsters existing don't seem to fit.  Is it possible the car you remember as a boat tail was not a true factory speedster (a rare and desirable car then and now) but something like William Randolph Hearst's car which started life as something else?  I hate to think the cars you recall didn't survive, but maybe they did and someone who knows will chime in and share the good news.  As for the Felix Dzerzhinsky Rolls, I haven't a clue but hopefully someone will know.   I was told the son of Iran's prime minister Mohammad Mosaddegh once owned a Packard twin six, but I've never been able to find anything on such a car.

734.jpg

Hearst.jpg

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I never heard that Felix Dzerzjinsky, the founder of the Soviet secret police, was a Rolls-Royce owner. How he "acquired" the car would be an interesting story, but not necessarily as you would expect. In 1984, I visited the V. I. Lenin museum in Leningrad, USSR and saw Lenin's Rolls-Royce touring car. It was an early 1920's model, which means that it was bought after the revolution, probably with State funds.

 

As I recall, it had been shabbily maintained, with very poor body repairs and paint.

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Back to the VMCCA film, I'm still trying to figure out whose car caught fire.  This B&W press photo was released with a writeup identifying the car as a Milano.  It looks more like a Simplex to me.

1939.jpg

press.JPG

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Here is the background on the VMCCA film.

 

Thanks to Barbara Fox and the Seal Cove Auto Museum for having the original footage copied and made available.

 

Northeast Historic Film 
PO Box 900 
85 Main Street 
Bucksport, Maine 04416

 

Identifier

8996

Collection

Bradley, Cameron Collection

Date(s)

1939

Can Descriptions

Amateur footage. Family's viewing notes as follows (reel titles in quotes are based on can/box notes, reel letters are NHF-assigned.) U. 'CB First Meet 1939.' Scene of the program guide for the first meet of the Veteran Motor Car Club of America (VMCCA) at Raceland. A track at Framingham, MA. The VMCCA offered opportunities for antique car owners to gather and participate in various events and share their interest in antique automobiles. Scenes of an antique car parade at Raceland including different makes such as Stanley Steamer, Crane Simplex, Benz, International, Orient Buckboard, Chase truck, Mercer, Locomobile, Mercedes and Renault. Scenes of antique cars driving over sandbags. Scenes of antique cars on the teeterboard where the drivers had to try to balance the cars. Scene of a fire fighting demonstration with an antique fire truck. Scene of an antique motorcycle. Scene of an antique bicycle. Scene of an antique car with its engine on fire. Scenes of the antique cars going around the track. Scenes of the obstacle course event with cars navigating around a snow fence. Scenes of an antique racing car race. Scenes of cars navigating the obstacle course. More scenes of antique car parades. NHF cataloguing notes for Reel U: CU program of event booklet: First Annual Fall Meet of Horseless Carriages. Shot of American Flag, tilt down flag pole and pan across location. Pan of trophy table including massive globe trophy. Pan along line of 1900s-1930s cars, woman in period costume also seen. MS of three wheeled car jerking forward. Cars waved off from line with flag on parade lap. Shots of individual cars moving on lawns including Model T Ford, Stanley Steamer. Man trying to start Benz at rear. People dressed in early 1900s costume. Cars with wooden wheels. Spoked wheels. All painted with a number. Cars driving over sand bags. Cars driving onto swing ramp. One car slips back down. Man in 20 foot car maneuvers slowly up it. Car tries to balance at top of sea-saw balance built for these cars. One says F.E.Merrill on the side. Early veteran car drives past man dressed in period policeman's uniform standing by Penny Farthing bicycle. Shot of Mercer. Firetruck show: A 'fire' by the trackside is attended by vintage fire engine and period dressed firemen one of whom 'succumbs' to fumes and is carried away by stretcher. Crowd watches. MD smoke and flame coming from stationary car engine is quenched by driver with fire extinguisher. Period firemen arrive with their fire truck. Crowd gathers around. (Seems more genuine than first fire.) Cars and buggies racing with passengers mostly in costume. Car takes checkered flag. Shot of Mercedes (possibly car shown in Reel I now with bodywork). Shot of circa 1908 Grand Prix Renault. Rolling start to Grand Prix car race with Renault, FIAT, Mercedes, Mercer, Locomobile (?). FIAT winner (?), stationary at commentary box. Shot of engine of Locomobile (?). Shot of group of old bicycles. Ground shot up through spokes of earliest bicycles. Cars driving through slalom course marked by crates with tea trays. Car knocks over every obstacle. More shots of cars passing camera, also early bicycles. (51:21).

Biographical/Historical Notes

Cameron Bradley was the owner of Winter Harbor Maine Trading Corporation in Winter Harbor, Maine. He was also a founding member of the Veteran Motor Car Club of America and a founder and director of the Wolfpen Antique Automotive Museum, in Southborough, Massachusetts.

The Veteran Motor Car Club of America (VMCCA) was founded in December of 1938 when twelve men met at the Hotel Statler in Boston, Massachusetts, and formulated plans for the Club. The Club was incorporated in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in May of 1940 as a non-profit organization. During the war years of 1941-45 participation in antique car activities was slight. In 1946, however, the VMCCA again became active and organized the first revival of the turn of the century Glidden Tours, which has been held annually ever since. The club has 5,000 members throughout the world.

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A Franklin with a gas ration sticker.  I assume this survived the scrap drives and is in a collection somewhere today.

Franklin.jpg

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16 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Here is a White in the Western Development Museum in Moose Jaw, SK.

46119679884_708b75e242_k.jpg

That's a 1910 model MM, similar to the Seal Cove Museum car, but a 4 passenger model.  If anyone knows the history of this car, such as prior owners, feel free to post or send me a PM and I'll pass it along to the roster keeper, who also owns a model MM.

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Maybe it's this car -  Dr. James H. Gray had it at Hershey in 1960.  Same body, hand pump, head & side lamps, windshield, toolbox, and that little mystery badge near the top of the grille.  Different horn, wheels and upholstery. 

1960-24-6_AntiqueAutomobile_Gray.thumb.jpg.b8c8b299bab2c1e9a5854b9373f53a5f.jpg

Gray had it on the '66 and '67 Gliddens.

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This photo presents a double challenge, of sorts.  It would be great if someone identified this Packard 8 phaeton (owner then or now), but it would also be nice to know about the monogram panel or tonneau panel which was not on Packard 8's of this vintage as they left the factory. I think Packard started incorporating them in 1928 (5th series 6, and 443).

phaeton.jpg

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Pulling some cars from barns in the 30's and 40's.  The Stanley is alive and well.  The Rolls is pulling a Simplex but I don't know what the Cletrac is pulling.  Some mysteries remain unsolved.

1941.jpg

RR barn.jpg

Cletrac.JPG

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I could look at car finds of the 1940's and before for ever, it must have been a great time to be in the hobby. Bob 

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That Franklin barrel hood touring is either a model D or most likely the model H. The model H was the largest the model G the smallest engine wise, the G had 4 cylinder the H a 6 cylinder. look at the length of the hood - that is a good indication, I think it is a model H. I have no idea if the car still exists.

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Here's a twist on "Then and Now."  In this case, the car's home is known - the Tallahassee Automobile Museum.  It was owned by Ernie Davignon before that, and in 1955, it was owned by Ellis Robertson.  But - who are these people?  The photos are from the Rod Blood collection, and they appear to be from some time in the 1940s.  The older man in the front seat somewhat resembles a photo of Robertson in the car at the Lakeville steam meet of 1955.  But is it him?  The young woman appears to be the same in both photos, but not the young man.  Do these faces ring a bell?

RodBlood832.thumb.jpg.caf14a8c5b1486ca9e847aaf60b0b9d3.jpg

RodBlood837.thumb.jpg.abb6a48d812d0280a4d6be9e7b68299d.jpg

Not the shovel handle on the tiller - it's still on the car today.  I've never seen another Stanley with one.

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Interesting photo of the Stanley with the tiller steering. Ernie Davignon was my sisters Godfather and his collection is what got me intrested in cars. He had four Stanley’s over the years, and the first car I ever drove at age six was one of his steamers. The car in the photo didn’t get used much if at all back in the 60’s and 70’s. If I ever got out of his yard I can’t remember it.  He had an early single Knox of 1901, a 1913 Cadillac, and later on a 1907 Knox. There was also a bunch of other “lesser” stuff. He was certainly active in New England during the 1970’s as we often toured in the steamers all over the place. Some of my earliest memories are fetching water from roadside streams and brooks with a leather bucket to keep the water tank full. After the accident when his later car was hit in his hometown with his family in the car he seemed to drive the Stanley’s less and the gas cars more. In the fall he would keep the fire burning on the car overnight and it would keep the garage warm............I’m greatful having experiences that are virtually non exsistant today. He also worked on quite a few other steamers for other owners. I remember a mountain wagon of 1910? And a handful of others. The hobby sure was diffrent back then.........no one ever used the term show car or trailer queen, and the early thirties big CCCA Classics were just “used cars”. I remember some of the prices he paid for them......the numbers were very low. It’s also interesting that a guy with more than twenty cars didn’t have a truck and trailer to move them. Every car ran under its own power to wherever the show was................my sister is with me this weekend in southern Florida for a car show at Mar-A-Lago, we are still at it more than fifty years later! Thanks for the photos and a flashback in time. Ed

 

PS- in general, without going into too much detail, how many Stanley’s are still around? I know they make them from almost nothing, but just a round number for all the car weather factory built or assembled cars. Thanks!

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Thanks a lot for those recollections, Ed.  I'm the roster keeper for Stanleys, located at http://www.StanleyRegister.net .  Right now the site is several years in arrears, but I'm back in the process of updating it.  There are no doubt some duplications still remaining, but I'm sure there are cars that I haven't discovered yet, too.  It does include cars that have been recently built.  At the moment, there are 800 listings.  Probably no more than 200 of them are driven with any regularity.

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