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Then and now: where did these prewar cars go?


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The Pope Hartford on the right was my fathers Plez Nance and is a 1909 Pope. This is and old faded color photo and the brown color should be maroon. The other Pope Hartford  ( 3rd from the the right) in the photo is a 1913 Pope Hartford that belong to John Ogden of San Diego. The photo was probably taken on a La Jolla Regional Group local tour. All the other cars in the photo were cars owned by La Jolla members. John Ogden’s Pope  now belongs to John’s son James of San Diego. My dads Pope now belongs to my brother Bill Nance of San Diego and is now being restored. 

 

John

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On 1/14/2019 at 8:23 AM, Curti said:

My hobby is building them. I like the challenge of restoring a car the way it sat on the showroom floor after dealer prep.

When I get done with one I start on another. If I want a great driving experience I hop in the late model Corvette.

Yes, but I have seen you driving plenty of them in Auburn for ACD festival too :)

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On 1/14/2019 at 6:02 PM, SC38DLS said:

Did you see the Duesenberg J sold for $850,000 and a Cadillac V16 sold for $155,000 At Mecum. I would have thought they both would have gone for more. 

Dave S 

It just depends on the car and depends on the interest level too (ie Mecum is trying, but they are still thought of more as 50, 60's, 70's market and if a Duesenberg buyer or V-16 buyer is not reviewing their website, and ... then really any car can go with little notice to them).  The Duesenberg, while beautifully restored is a reproduction bodied car (Fran Roxas does incredibly nice work though) and the Cadillac is a closed car (Coupe) and strikes me as pretty well done though I spotted a few interior authenticity issues and possibly older restoration (I do not recall ever seeing the car in person and that is always a test).

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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The 14 Lewis lived in the Vancouver BC area about 30 years ago. One of our club members brought it in from the USA. He tried to tour it but it wouldn't stay cool. The rad was too small. I believe he eventually put an additional rad under the car. Shortly after he sold it back into the states. Seems like a long time ago now!

Ken

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Thank you to all who have contribute to identify the cars!  It's great to learn a bit about what happened to them over the decades.  Here are a couple Rolls Royces  in the 1950's, the first with Stan Tarnopol at the wheel, and the second a mystery (at least to me).

Stan.jpg

101.jpg

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584864018_39923VMCCAMeet1LRX.thumb.jpg.d4a5ba2cf4082d76eba7e62802afec1e.jpg

 

It's very exciting to see the battered 1905 Glidden Trophy out in natural elements at the VMCCA Meet.

 

990317430_GliddenTrophy1910NLChalmers.jpg.10c0d5d075c3618f0366071caebaaeea.jpg

1910 Nathan Lazarnick photo of the Glidden Trophy.

Even then, it appears that the little silver 1901 Napier, perched atop

the trophy, representing the car the Gilddens used on their multi-year

world tour is missing or perhaps just removed for safety's sake.

 

1690898343_GliddenTrophyAdj.thumb.jpg.c4dc5fdfc6ff26e7f84d8381cdb995fe.jpg

 

Its porcelain enameled finish shows plenty of abuse, and recent images indicate major touch-ups.

 

Thanks to the AACA Library & Research Center for bringing that early 16mm color film back to life!

 

TG

Edited by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)
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Bob,

 

The Glidden Trophy lives at the headquarters of the AAA outside Orlando. The Anderson Trophy,

donated in 1911 by the city of Anderson, SC is at our county museum for another year.

 

1275774595_TrophyCHSide1X.jpg.9488845fd1de63a3de327e43b2313fa7.jpg

 

In 2007, we arranged for AAA to share the Anderson Trophy's possession on a biannual rotational basis with our county museum.

 

TG

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On 1/16/2019 at 5:59 PM, John_Mereness said:

It just depends on the car and depends on the interest level too (ie Mecum is trying, but they are still thought of more as 50, 60's, 70's market and if a Duesenberg buyer or V-16 buyer is not reviewing their website, and ... then really any car can go with little notice to them).  The Duesenberg, while beautifully restored is a reproduction bodied car (Fran Roxas does incredibly nice work though) 

 

850k for that is plenty of money.  If it was real it would be 2-3 million bucks or more.  Reproduction coachwork sits in a narrow space.

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A couple Packard 8 runabouts I'd love to connect to cars on the roster.  First one was owned when the photo was taken (1960's?) by Art Kenniff of Southold, Long Island. It sports a 1926 NY plate. The other is a complete mystery but dual rear spares was not a common setup, which might help someone recognize the car.

runabout 1.jpg

runabout 2.JPG

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Twin6, those two Packards remind me of the pair of late '20s Packard roadsters (one a boat tail), that Sat on the North side of the Sheridan Market for far too many years. North of Seattle on Bothell Way at about the 15+xxx level on the R.H. side Northbound, the market still stands, vacant. I remember the cars back in the late '50s, into the early'60s. They sat for several years, poorly tended. They were tenuously covered in various degrees by canvas tarps in all the misery Seattle precipitation could inflict on them. Maybe some Old Lion who roamed the area in that era knows/remembers.? Harold  ? Anyone ?  Far too valuable even back then for the scrap heap, someone obviously did not value them enough. Maybe after their neglect at the market, they were scrapped.

 

While I am up : What happened to Felix Derjinsky 's Rolls Royce  ?        -   Carl 

 

P.S. Maybe someone up on early 20th century Russian history will know from whom Derjinsky "acquired" the RR, and under what circumstances.

Edited by C Carl
Add P.S. (see edit history)
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Re: Stoddard-Dayton - Ray W. Rodgers of Warren, Ohio drove a "Stoddard-Dayton 1909 Speedster" on the 1955 Glidden Tour.  Interestingly, the article on the tour includes a photo of the Remington Pope-Hartford, which looks like it was taken just before the family put on their jackets for the color photo that was posted earlier.

 

Rodgers also drove his car in the 1956 Granville, Ohio rally.  It rained - maybe the posted photo is from that event, what with the covers on the brass.  He had it at Hershey in '57, and at Lake Forest in '58, where the next photo was taken.  If it's the same car, it must have been re-restored -  gas tank moved, different demountable wheels.  Still has the big spotlight, though.

1958-22-4_AntiqueAutomobile_Rodgers.jpg.cf08315105265ea9dcd90b500b9593aa.jpg

 

By 1964, it had one of those amazing exhaust organs.

1964-28-1_AntiqueAutomobile_Rodgers.jpg.eb8902c50b56057c8f33baa8d641f77c.jpg

 

Rodgers advertised it for sale in 1965, and by the time of the Swigart Museum meet in 1966, it was owned by Joel Finn.  (Voted Most Popular Car.)

1966-30-6_AntiqueAutomobile_Finn.jpg.04bf93a89a3fcc7c6384488f22ee078f.jpg

 

At that point the trail goes cold...

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I think it is the Stoddard Dayton that is at the Seal Cove Museum in Maine.The Museum list it as a 1910 but it is a 1909 Stoddard Dayton. Try this url.  https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/collection-test/1910-stoddard-dayton/

All 1909 Stoddard Daytons had straight rear fenders and 1/2 olliptical real springs. All 1910 Stoddard Daytons changed to round rear fenders and 3/4 olliptical rear springs. My brother was at the museum and ask to look at the engine to see if it was a single rocker engine but they would not let him. He said the chassis was definitely a 1909 chassis.

 

John

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Since the topic is "Then and now: where did these prewar cars go?" I can tell you that we display several gems at the Seal Cove Auto Museum that were once owned by pioneers of the old car hobby. 

James Melton: 1913 Peugeot Skiff with coachwork by Labourdette and Melton's 1909 Pierce Arrow.

Bill Harrah: 1915 F.R.P.

Henry Austin Clark Jr.'s:1904 Knox and 1912 Thomas Flyer.

John Hebden (George Waterman): 1908 Model K Ford.

Briggs Cunningham' (Larz Anderson): 1911 American Underslung.

Dr. Samual Scher: 1904 Cadillac and 1905 Pierce Great Arrow. 

George Waterman, Jhon Hebden, and Bill Pollock: 1904 Searchmont.

Thompson Products Auto Album: 1907 Holsman.

Roger Cutting: 1921 Mercer.

Sam Tarnapol: 1904 Pope Hartford. 

Henry C. Wing: 1911 Stanley.

Horns’ Cars of Yesterday: 1909 Stevens-Duryea.

Roland Giroux: 1910 White MM.

Paul Cadwel: 1900 Locomobile.

Murchio's Auto Museum: 1901 DeDion Motorette.

Frank and Pauline Snook: 1917 Crane-Simplex

Ray Rogers and Joel Finn: 1909 Stoddard-Dayton discussed earlier in this topic.

Some of these names are more familiar than others, but all were familiar in the late 1930s through the early 1960s

You can see these cars at the Seal Cove Auto Museum (www.sealcoveautomuseum.org)

If you would like more information about any of these cars, send me an email to: curator@sealcoveautomuseum.org

Roberto

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Roberto, thank you so much for taking time to share this information!  Here is a photo of the White in 1949, not long after Giroux had acquired it from Fred Dundee.  You can just make out where "Dundee Auto Repair" had been on the side of the car.

1949.jpg

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It looks like the ownership of the Stoddard-Dayton could be pushed back one more.  William Gent of Euclid, OH bought the car in rough shape in 1953 and restored it by 1955.  (The original newspaper photo is in color.)1955-08-07_ClevelandPlainDealer_Gent.thumb.jpg.c40a2c0e5195e1d3914a16d38e46be7c.jpg

 

He had it on the Granville rally that year, the same rally that Rodgers had it on in 1956.  Maybe the originally-posted photo shows Gent driving, rather than Rodgers.

 

There's just one sour note in all this.  A list of Stoddard-Dayton owners in published in 1961 showed Ray Rodgers owning 1910 Model 10F roadster, engine #  137.  It also showed William Gent owning 1909 Model 9F speedster, engine # 711.  There are several big differences in appearance between the 1955 newspaper & originally-posted 1955 photos, and the 1958 and later Rodgers photos.  Any Stoddard-Dayton-ophiles able to clear up the potential discrepancy?

Edited by StanleyRegister
correct engine # 137 (see edit history)
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Here are some more photos of the former Dundee, Giroux, 1910 White MM Steamer...

  • Owner Rolan Giroux with the car on the 1965 cover of "The Steam Automobile."
  • After the tragic death of Giroux's wife and son in an automobile accident, his White Steamers were put on sale as advertised in "The Steam Automobile." Richard C. paine Jr., would have acquired the MM at this time.
  • The 1910 as it looks on display at the Seal Cove. (Richard C. Paine Jr. Automobile Charitable rust)

Research Project Photos-47.JPG

Research Project Photos-44.JPG

IMG_4793.jpg

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On 1/18/2019 at 5:55 PM, C Carl said:

Twin6, those two Packards remind me of the pair of late '20s Packard roadsters (one a boat tail), that Sat on the North side of the Sheridan Market for far too many years. North of Seattle on Bothell Way at about the 15+xxx level on the R.H. side Northbound, the market still stands, vacant. I remember the cars back in the late '50s, into the early'60s. They sat for several years, poorly tended. They were tenuously covered in various degrees by canvas tarps in all the misery Seattle precipitation could inflict on them. Maybe some Old Lion who roamed the area in that era knows/remembers.? Harold  ? Anyone ?  Far too valuable even back then for the scrap heap, someone obviously did not value them enough. Maybe after their neglect at the market, they were scrapped.

 

While I am up : What happened to Felix Derjinsky 's Rolls Royce  ?        -   Carl 

 

P.S. Maybe someone up on early 20th century Russian history will know from whom Derjinsky "acquired" the RR, and under what circumstances.

Carl, there are some existing Packard 734 boat tail speedsters (1930) that were in the Pacific Northwest years ago but nothing is coming up so far with a Seattle connection.  I'll keep digging.  The only 1929 speedsters existing don't seem to fit.  Is it possible the car you remember as a boat tail was not a true factory speedster (a rare and desirable car then and now) but something like William Randolph Hearst's car which started life as something else?  I hate to think the cars you recall didn't survive, but maybe they did and someone who knows will chime in and share the good news.  As for the Felix Dzerzhinsky Rolls, I haven't a clue but hopefully someone will know.   I was told the son of Iran's prime minister Mohammad Mosaddegh once owned a Packard twin six, but I've never been able to find anything on such a car.

734.jpg

Hearst.jpg

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I never heard that Felix Dzerzjinsky, the founder of the Soviet secret police, was a Rolls-Royce owner. How he "acquired" the car would be an interesting story, but not necessarily as you would expect. In 1984, I visited the V. I. Lenin museum in Leningrad, USSR and saw Lenin's Rolls-Royce touring car. It was an early 1920's model, which means that it was bought after the revolution, probably with State funds.

 

As I recall, it had been shabbily maintained, with very poor body repairs and paint.

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Here is the background on the VMCCA film.

 

Thanks to Barbara Fox and the Seal Cove Auto Museum for having the original footage copied and made available.

 

Northeast Historic Film 
PO Box 900 
85 Main Street 
Bucksport, Maine 04416

 

Identifier

8996

Collection

Bradley, Cameron Collection

Date(s)

1939

Can Descriptions

Amateur footage. Family's viewing notes as follows (reel titles in quotes are based on can/box notes, reel letters are NHF-assigned.) U. 'CB First Meet 1939.' Scene of the program guide for the first meet of the Veteran Motor Car Club of America (VMCCA) at Raceland. A track at Framingham, MA. The VMCCA offered opportunities for antique car owners to gather and participate in various events and share their interest in antique automobiles. Scenes of an antique car parade at Raceland including different makes such as Stanley Steamer, Crane Simplex, Benz, International, Orient Buckboard, Chase truck, Mercer, Locomobile, Mercedes and Renault. Scenes of antique cars driving over sandbags. Scenes of antique cars on the teeterboard where the drivers had to try to balance the cars. Scene of a fire fighting demonstration with an antique fire truck. Scene of an antique motorcycle. Scene of an antique bicycle. Scene of an antique car with its engine on fire. Scenes of the antique cars going around the track. Scenes of the obstacle course event with cars navigating around a snow fence. Scenes of an antique racing car race. Scenes of cars navigating the obstacle course. More scenes of antique car parades. NHF cataloguing notes for Reel U: CU program of event booklet: First Annual Fall Meet of Horseless Carriages. Shot of American Flag, tilt down flag pole and pan across location. Pan of trophy table including massive globe trophy. Pan along line of 1900s-1930s cars, woman in period costume also seen. MS of three wheeled car jerking forward. Cars waved off from line with flag on parade lap. Shots of individual cars moving on lawns including Model T Ford, Stanley Steamer. Man trying to start Benz at rear. People dressed in early 1900s costume. Cars with wooden wheels. Spoked wheels. All painted with a number. Cars driving over sand bags. Cars driving onto swing ramp. One car slips back down. Man in 20 foot car maneuvers slowly up it. Car tries to balance at top of sea-saw balance built for these cars. One says F.E.Merrill on the side. Early veteran car drives past man dressed in period policeman's uniform standing by Penny Farthing bicycle. Shot of Mercer. Firetruck show: A 'fire' by the trackside is attended by vintage fire engine and period dressed firemen one of whom 'succumbs' to fumes and is carried away by stretcher. Crowd watches. MD smoke and flame coming from stationary car engine is quenched by driver with fire extinguisher. Period firemen arrive with their fire truck. Crowd gathers around. (Seems more genuine than first fire.) Cars and buggies racing with passengers mostly in costume. Car takes checkered flag. Shot of Mercedes (possibly car shown in Reel I now with bodywork). Shot of circa 1908 Grand Prix Renault. Rolling start to Grand Prix car race with Renault, FIAT, Mercedes, Mercer, Locomobile (?). FIAT winner (?), stationary at commentary box. Shot of engine of Locomobile (?). Shot of group of old bicycles. Ground shot up through spokes of earliest bicycles. Cars driving through slalom course marked by crates with tea trays. Car knocks over every obstacle. More shots of cars passing camera, also early bicycles. (51:21).

Biographical/Historical Notes

Cameron Bradley was the owner of Winter Harbor Maine Trading Corporation in Winter Harbor, Maine. He was also a founding member of the Veteran Motor Car Club of America and a founder and director of the Wolfpen Antique Automotive Museum, in Southborough, Massachusetts.

The Veteran Motor Car Club of America (VMCCA) was founded in December of 1938 when twelve men met at the Hotel Statler in Boston, Massachusetts, and formulated plans for the Club. The Club was incorporated in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in May of 1940 as a non-profit organization. During the war years of 1941-45 participation in antique car activities was slight. In 1946, however, the VMCCA again became active and organized the first revival of the turn of the century Glidden Tours, which has been held annually ever since. The club has 5,000 members throughout the world.

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16 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Here is a White in the Western Development Museum in Moose Jaw, SK.

46119679884_708b75e242_k.jpg

That's a 1910 model MM, similar to the Seal Cove Museum car, but a 4 passenger model.  If anyone knows the history of this car, such as prior owners, feel free to post or send me a PM and I'll pass it along to the roster keeper, who also owns a model MM.

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