The Grinch

[Bill Stoneberg]

[Bhigdog]

Bah!.....Humbug!........

[SpecialEducation]

It's projected that F*rd will need to layoff 24,000 people, and nobody says a word.

GM announces that they are laying off half that amount, and everybody looses their minds...

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/trump-s-tariffs-have-already-cost-ford-1b-now-it-n917756

https://www.watchdog.org/michigan/ford-refutes-media-claim-that-trump-tariffs-caused-layoffs/article_0323e6a4-cd96-11e8-b2f7-b7367c6120d2.html

[Y-JobFan]

Amen 

 

[nick8086]

It is all about the market place.. If you make a great car.. and have good service dept..  It will sell it self..

 

What is the cost to bring a new car to the market place..

Edited December 1, 2018 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

9 hours ago, nick8086 said:

It is all about the market place.. If you make a great car.. and have good service dept..  It will sell it self..

 

 

 

Except in this case it is all about the SUV's and light pick -up trucks ( LPT's) .  You can make the absolute best car possible , but if people perceive that an SUV/LPT has better value to them, then it won't sell.  That and what the press calls "cheap gas". 

I remember cheap gas @ 50 cents per gallon.  $2.00 per gallon for ethanol infused regular grade is still  expensive to me.    But not to young folks today who might remember $4.00 per gallon gas when they first became responsible for buying some.  To them gas today may seem a bargain, and therefore they are not worried that an SUV or LPT uses more gas.   There is something else about the SUV/LPT  that appeals to them.  Could it be physical size?  Interior space?  The ability to carry more than a package of light bulbs, especially since you now buy light bulbs that last 23 years? 

And the final kicker for me is that they want, and buy,  the biggest vehicle available, but they work from home and shop online!

 

(Stepping down from the soap box... )

[auburnseeker]

When you need a truck,  you need a truck.  A Prius or Volt or Tesla won't do.  Maybe you could replace it with a 60's LTD or Impala Wagon but that's about it.  It needs to hold a sheet of Plywood atleast and be able to hold 20 boxes of rusty car parts.  Much being full of old Water pumps and misc. Assorted suspension parts.  Also needs to hook to your enclosed 10,000 GVW car trailer to tow such stuff or your old car that super highway obsoleted to the next meet.  Not to mention firewood,  a pallet of landscaping stone,  a bunch of fuel cans for the equipment that you sure don't want to puke out in your wife's car (to which you will never hear the end).  Until you have a something bigger than an apartment in the city and do alot of real work one will never understand.  not saying any of the above posters are like that,  just saying why many of us have trucks as opposed to the current offerings.  Trucks usually have a darn nice resale value as long as you didn't take the initial hit.  

Even my wife has a truck with a cap,  as opposed to an SUV.    

[dship]

I don't need a truck; I don't need a SUV or a Crossover...I'll live with a sedan, but I'd rather have a coupe!

[Bhigdog]

100 acres, horses, old cars, machines, fences, chickens, firewood, way too much stuff. I need a Prius, EV, or self driving thingy like a fish needs a bicycle.............Bob.

[60FlatTop]

When I bought my first truck my Wife asked me why so many people acted surprised that I had. I told her most people associate a truck with work. Why did I have one!

 

I had quite a bit of GM stock. When they were in trouble they created a new company and made all my stock worth nothing. Then they sold all the stuff my investment had bought and cheered "We made a profit!" So then they went off to the same run down buildings and back to their same conniving ways. But not making any money.

 

I'm pretty sure they still have my address from the worthless stocks. I'm locking up the silverware in case they start thinking about how they got profitable the last time.

 

[old-tank]

47 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I had quite a bit of GM stock. When they were in trouble they created a new company and made all my stock worth nothing. Then they sold all the stuff my investment had bought and cheered "We made a profit!" So then they went off to the same run down buildings and back to their same conniving ways. But not making any money.

 

I'm pretty sure they still have my address from the worthless stocks. I'm locking up the silverware in case they start thinking about how they got profitable the last time.

Exactly the same situation...and that made me a bitter old fart.  Never will buy another GM vehicle outside the mid 50's.

[Bhigdog]

3 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

When I bought my first truck my Wife asked me why so many people acted surprised that I had. I told her most people associate a truck with work. Why did I have one!

 

I had quite a bit of GM stock. When they were in trouble they created a new company and made all my stock worth nothing. Then they sold all the stuff my investment had bought and cheered "We made a profit!" So then they went off to the same run down buildings and back to their same conniving ways. But not making any money.

 

I'm pretty sure they still have my address from the worthless stocks. I'm locking up the silverware in case they start thinking about how they got profitable the last time.

 

 

A broker tried to sell me GM bonds. Very attractive @10 % interest. When I declined he asked "What? Do you think GM will go bankrupt?" Ha! I was smarter than that. I bought AAA rated tax free Puerto Rico bonds instead. Anyone want some wall paper?................Bob

Edited December 1, 2018 by Bhigdog
correction (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

28 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

interest free Puerto Rico bonds

 

You;re not surprised if no one is interested, are you?

 

I have deeper thoughts at the moment. If we lose US manufacturing capability and an Asian manufacturer has to contract building artillery, do you have to pay a tariff if you use it where it is built?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 

 SO, what is the answer?

 

  I have never understood how a foreign  [Toyota? Volkswagen?] company can build here and make and sell cars at a profit when domestic car makers can not. 

[Bhigdog]

56 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

You;re not surprised if no one is interested, are you?

 

Really pretty wall paper at a DEEPLY discounted price.........................Bob

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 SO, what is the answer?

 

  I have never understood how a foreign  [Toyota? Volkswagen?] company can build here and make and sell cars at a profit when domestic car makers can not. 

Management skills.

[Booreatta]

from what I have read VW Toyota Kia Hyundai are not made here they are assembled here. if that is the case half the labor, equals less costs

[JohnD1956]

4 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 

  I have never understood how a foreign  [Toyota? Volkswagen?] company can build here and make and sell cars at a profit when domestic car makers can not. 

 

Where's it said the domestics are not making a profit? All thats been said is that there is more profit in SUV/LPT vehicles, and not enough demand for those they are cancelling. 

[RivNut]

42 minutes ago, Booreatta said:

from what I have read VW Toyota Kia Hyundai are not made here they are assembled here. if that is the case half the labor, equals less costs

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willyshih/2018/04/17/inside-toyotas-giant-kentucky-factory-japanese-production-techniques-made-in-america/#2142754133e4

 

Pretty much explains it all.

 

Half the labor = less costs?

 

Are you saying that there are no labor costs involved in production outside te U.S.? You are insinuating that all of the Germans working for VW; Koreans working for Hyundai; and Japanese working for Toyota are doing it for free. Really?  U.S. workers probably make more $ / hour than their overseas counterparts.

 

Controlling production costs and quality are all part of the "Just in time" system.  Not too much, not too little; not too soon, not to late. 

There is no surplus inventory. There is not a surplus of poorly built parts sitting on shelves that must be used before a new supply can be shelved.  Any employee on the line can stop production when/If problems are incurred.

 

I had a friend who worked at the GM Leeds assembly plant whose jobs was to take all of the cars that wouldn't run when they came off the assembly line and figure out why.  He and his counterparts were the only employees working overtime on a daily basis.

 

It took the U.S. manufacturers too long to break out of their old mold and they wound up paying for it. They are now becoming competitive.  

 

As JohnD1956 says, it's all about what the customer wants to drive.   Just think what will happen when the vast majority of al vehicles are electric.  Not thousands of parts in an engine, jut a couple in a motor. Envision pulling into a "Jiffy lube" type shop and having a new electric motor dropped into your car in 15 minutes, the same time it now takes for an oil change.  With nothing to go wrong with a car, dealerships won't need service departments; their biggest source of income.  

 

I not making this stuff up. It's being printed in automotive journals daily. Get ready for it.

[NTX5467]

We live in a more diversified world now.  City dwellers (as in NYC) pay huge amounts to park cars for their apartments/condos, etc.  They don't need to really own a car.  Public transportation, if it works for them, usually works fine.  Others pay the price and own a car.  Being car-less has benefits and also some "crimps in style".  If you need to go out of town, a car rental company can do that for you.  You buy their LDW (or have a credit card that does the same) and enjoy.  

 

If you live in the TX panhandle, you need either a 4-dr pickup truck, SUV (of any size), or a smaller car that's big enough to not get blown off the road by a big truck.

 

If you live in Dallas or Houston, or similar, and head out to the country every so often, but mainly stay in town or in populated areas, then a Volt or similar might work.  IF you live in a "Home Depot World", then you need something to make trips there.  A 2010 Impala will easily haul 6' lumber, as will the earlier ones, too.  Put the rh frt seat laid back, and you can to limited amounts of 8' lumber, too.  But few people know that.  Plywood or bulk lumber, get a pickup truck with an 8' bed.  Or a Dodge Magnum.  Or a used minivan and remove the seats?  

 

Self-driving cars work as long as the GPS mapping system works!  A few years ago, we got GPS "surveillance" on our work vehicles.  I was watching it as I was in a more remote rural area near a major lake.  The road I turned onto was a two-lane "park" road, which connected to another state highway.  That Park Road was not on the GPS map, so the image on the unit showed me just turning off the main road and going out into uncharted territory.  How many times have we heard of people getting lost in the desert or mountains by relying on GPS directions?  Even at this advanced date, more work to do in the non-metro areas.  Volvo announced a year ago that their next-gen of vehicles would be hybrid or full electric, probably for this reason.

 

The unrealized truth is that GM, as a global entity, will soon need more electric-tech vehicles in Europe as larger cities have been banning gas/diesel vehicles of a certain age from their inner city locations.  Paris, France is one.  Others will follow.

 

On the "sedan" issue, just not enough room to haul "stuff", even for a college kid who changes apartments every so often and doesn't want to hire a moving company.  Obviously, a Chevy Sonic or similar might sell better in NYC than in OKC, but an SUV of smaller proportions can go "everywhere".  Consider that the Chevy Eqiunox is one of their best selling CARS, over the past few years.

 

I have a female cousin who's a single mother.  She moved back to "west of Pyote, TX" to help oversee the care of her mother.  She bought a smaller Hyundai "sedan" for the gas mileage.  Then she managed to have a tire problem "out there, on the road".  Had to call a tow truck as the car had a can of Fix-A-Flat and not spare tire.  She traded it for a mid-size SUV and is happy with the added security of some kind of spare tire in it.  She's willing to give up a few mpg for that security and larger size, too.

 

So, as some cars have gotten too small for many people's use, 4-dr pickup trucks have gotten too TALL and expensive, existing "sedans" can't really fill the needs of a typical customer, as they used to do.  So that leaves the Chevy Equinox/GMC Terrain size of vehicles that can work for them.  Mpg has improved a lot, too.

 

Small cars aren't as cheap to buy as they used to be.  A Chevy Malibu can cost almost as much as an Impala used to cost, say pre-2015.  Why buy the Malibu unless you needed something that size.  I suspect that many opted for the larger Impala with basically the same mpg and "a few dollars more" MSRP.  The success of the new Chevy Colorado surprised many, including FORD.

 

Ford has the Mustang and their F-150s.  BUT they will be coming out with a new mid-size SUV-style vehicle.  Smaller than an Explorer, possibly between the Equinox and Traverse, to fill the void between 'stangs and "trucks".  Chrysler had to discontinue their mid-size 200.  Too much competition from the import brands who were "already there" in that segment.  Not that the 200  and similar Dodge were not good vehicles, they were in a very tough market segment that USA brands had previously shown much weakness in.  Sometimes, it seems that some car magazines wield too much "weight" in what cars sell and don't sell!  The #5 or #6 cars are still good cars, and will work for many customers who have a good dealer in their area, but everybody looks to the #1-3 cars instead, when considering which one to purchase.

 

In reality, many of the cars which GM will delete were vehicles that, in their last redesign/update, got too expensive compared to what they replaced (Impala, Cruze) or were not well-conceived with "tech" that wasn't right for that segment (CT6 and its innovative body construction AND expensive tech, even with a turbo 4cyl in a CADILLAC?).  And, thiere will be some companion vehicles, too.  Which leaves Cadillac with CTS and Escalades?

 

I strongly suspect that the vehicles which GM comes out with will have both autonomous and manual driving versions.  They could be just physically smaller than the current Impala, but roomier inside with some carrying capacity cargo space.

 

I know we all hate to see the Buick Lacrosse leave, but one of its companions is the Impala and XTS, I believe?  But to me, that particular car was not executed very well.  What, you say?  When I first sat in one, when they first came out, I was surprised how narrow the passenger compartment was.  My right leg was against the console!  The car just was not as wide inside as its outside size might indicate.  A 4-passenger car.  Well, maybe 4 normal people and a kid in the back?  I will admit that the last versions looked nice, but that interior width, and lack thereof, combined with a not very user-friendly way to change the radio controls, worked against it.  The later verisons where everything would go through the touch screen were probably better than the earlier models.  Possibly too much infotainment for a typical Buick owner?  As sales of the smaller Buick SUVs set records.

 

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited December 2, 2018 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[EmTee]

We must be out of touch around here, but it seems I can't go anywhere without seeing at least two dozen Chevy Cruzes either on the road or in parking lots.  My sense is they are the only GM product that can be bought without requiring 72-month financing... 

[NTX5467]

3 hours ago, EmTee said:

We must be out of touch around here, but it seems I can't go anywhere without seeing at least two dozen Chevy Cruzes either on the road or in parking lots.  My sense is they are the only GM product that can be bought without requiring 72-month financing... 

 

A year or so ago, they advertised them as "The Most Tech You Can Buy for Under $20K".   When they came out, the base car has a slightly larger 4cyl, but the higher level models had a small 4cyl with a turbo for about 10 horsepower more, as standard equipment on them.  As things are evolving with "low speed pre-ignition" on the smaller GDI turbo motors, the base engine might have been the better deal, as the cars age?

 

NTX5467

[Larry Schramm]

Having worked for GM for 36 years on multiple staffs, I could tell you a lot of stories why GM is now the size it is now. Will not say here, but if you catch me in person I can tell you some of them then.

 

When the passion for the product is not in the hear of the management and employees, sales suffer. 

 

The car business like any other business is if it is just about the numbers, sales eventually fall.  Just look at Kmart & Sears.  Sears had all of the tools to challenge Amazon with their old catalogue database and fulfillment/ distribution centers and they threw it away.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Booreatta]

Ed the point I was trying to make is most of the imports, not all but most do not manufacture parts here in the US they assemble thus the JIT inventory control plays a big part. The cost to produce the part overseas is less labor due to as you said we pay our workers here more than workers in Japan or Korea. The final cost of a car could be reduced for the import labor cost being less. Then there is the tax issue. Import parts are taxed differently than a finished product. I have dealt with global procurement and its a different ballgame..yes there are labor costs on both shores but the savings for Hyundai and Toyota and other import companys are large cost savings that GM does not have for all models  Buick makes a lot of cars in China for just that reason..The bean counters in these companys don't want us to have all of the details.  Scrub down the P&L of GM or Ford or ? and see just how much funny money you can find. Follow the money which is why cars don't sell like they used to. The bigger the beast the bigger the profit

[60FlatTop]

On 12/2/2018 at 1:51 AM, NTX5467 said:

I know we all hate to see the Buick Lacrosse leave, but one of its companions is the Impala and XTS, I believe?  But to me, that particular car was not executed very well. 

 

I spent about a year and a half shopping for an everyday car to drive through the decade of my 70's. I have always leaned toward Buicks and Cadillacs as my preference. The Cadillac XTS had all the good writeups and appeared to be my car of choice. In February I tried out a well cared for 2017 with just about 20,000 miles, priced at $30,000. Rebadged Chevy. I was really disappointed.

 

Since the 1990's I have recognized that my frequent ownership of upscale cars on the edge of recognition as collectable has insulated me from the new car owner's 4-5 year degradation of the traditional quality experience. Like the story about raising the temperature of the water a frog is resting in, they don't get the full impact of the change. For me the change is like touching a hot stove.

 

I don't want a narrow cockpit. I don't want to be able to tell which individual wheel hit a bump. I am not impressed with advertised horsepower rating calculated at 6500 RPM or the eight speed transmission required to compensate for it. Urban cars are here for the plebeian buyers. And the percentage of those leased is 30 and rising. They aren't really "selling" that many new cars.

 

I like cars and I know how to fix them. I have the best of 100 years to choose from for my transportation. I am lucky and that's an exception.

 

As a boulevard style driver, it is hard for me to get out of a well maintained 1960 Electra and into a 2017 Cadillac without obviously noticing something is lacking in the experience. When the Caddy salesman asked me what he needed to do to make me want the car I replied "Add mass". I sent him an email when I did buy the acceptable car, just to tell him it weighed 4800 pounds.

 

About 25 years ago a good friend told me "The car business is not for people who like cars. It is for people who like money." If one car manufacturer figures a way to work that to their advantage......

Bernie

 

[avgwarhawk]

At the end of the day, selling base model pick up trucks for $29k and with all the extras if you can afford it, $49K....there is a problem.   Car loans that used to be 3-5 years are now 7 plus.   The most unsatisfying check one cuts every month is for a car loan.  When the fat coupon book has reached it's end so has the vehicle for many.   Time for a new car shows the last page of that coupon book. 

 

Anyway, when folks are holding onto their vehicles for 7 plus years to pay them off, there are less new car sales for the manufacturers.        

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

and with all the extras if you can afford it, $49K

 

Friend of mine just bought a new Chevy 2500 diesel pick up, most all the bells and whistles. Just a bit north of $70,000. Oy Vey.................Bob

[avgwarhawk]

24 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Friend of mine just bought a new Chevy 2500 diesel pick up, most all the bells and whistles. Just a bit north of $70,000. Oy Vey.................Bob

 

 It is crazy.   And, all it takes is one clown not paying attention to total the $70k pick up that once the paperwork is signed depreciates $20k.   The insurance company will pay out what they think it is worth.  This then triggers additional GAP insurance to be paid just in case that happens.    For me, $70k is one heck of a start of retirement fund.  Sorry GM.  I'll rent a pick up when I need one.  

Edited December 3, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

  For me, $70k is one heck of a start of retirement fund

 

My friend just retired. The salesman showed him how his 401K payout would pay for the truck so it really didn't cost him anything........ I didn't ask.................Bob

[60FlatTop]

Grinch, makes me laugh, it was a rotten thing for GM to completely devalue all existing stock and create a new company with the appropriated assets. I keep looking at new Silverados, but I am not as comfortable with the company as I was, kind of like seeing the bar tender scoop change off the bar while he wipes it. And I KNOW I don't have isolated thoughts that are peculiar to me. Others, without an authoritative voice are thinking the same. The thoughts and actions of disgruntled customers are not taught with the MBA and nor experienced in the isolation of management. The Grinch doesn't know what's wrong with him.

 

Corporations, in general, have a useful lifespan of the founders activities plus 30 years. The 30 years is the attrition time of those close enough to the founder to know "the vision".  Once they are gone the mindless corporate entity takes over and the spark is gone. The math works pretty good when you analyze that. Look aat corporations founded 50 to 60 years before 2008. Control defaulted to a bunch of dullards. Throw in the fact that they are a bunch of hero worshipers. Not a nickel for prevention, billions to bury mistakes. I still remember watching the auto maker bail outs. They asked the bozo from GM what he would do with the money. One item was "make payroll." I was shocked. What a stupid, stupid thing to say. He got the money and became a hero.

 

So when I wanted a car and all GM had that I liked was trucks, I went to one of the World War losers and bought this.

 

I have had it since February and service and repair it myself. Last week I told my Brother In Law there is nothing mechanical on the car I won't fix. My Wife is the only one who has had a problem. She is getting real tired of hearing "Why can't Buick or Cadillac build a car like this"...... e-v-e-r-y time we drive it. Oh, it is not rebadged but there is a rumor a lot of the parts ride under another emblem.

 

Snowy day.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

A few years ago, one of our body shop customers, out in a rural/ranch part of the state, related a situation of one of his customers.  The guy had a late model Ford King Ranch HS2500 4-dr pickup truck.  He was out in the pasture and got too close to a tree.  Knocked one of the outside mirrors off.  He came in to Jeff to see about getting it replaced.

 

Jeff called his Ford dealer parts guy and priced the mirror.  The mirror was about $700.00, for the part, plus labor and such to install it.  The pickup owner thought that was outrageous!  He couldn't believe it.  Jeff didn't cut him any slack.  "You own a (then) $60,000.00 pickup and are complaining about a $700.00 mirror for it?"  After the owner got his money together, he got it fixed.

 

Back in the '90s, a guy came in wanting to price an outside mirror glass for his Suburban.  The VIN verified it was a heated mirror.  That one was $150.00.  He didn't know he had heated outside mirrors, which was a part of the higher-level option package.  The normal mirror glass replacement was $20.00.  Guess which one he bought.

 

You can tell what's selling by the number of variations in models and equipment levels, for USA brands.  In GM 4-dr pickups, there are TWO cab lengths, THREE bed lengths, and trim levels from spartan to ultra-luxury.  Plenty of tech stuff, too!  The larger 4-dr cab has limo-like rear leg room, with the 5.5' bed.  The normal 4-dr has the 6' bed.  We could probably sell every GMC Denali 4-dr Crew Cab HD2500 Duramax we can get.  AND then put a 4" chassis lift on it, too!

 

Between the $400K house, the $70K pickup, the $80K Escalade, and such, I'm not sure how everybody's financing this stuff!  Much less living expenses and such.

 

I happened upon a website for some upscale apartments in Fort Worth a while back.  New, but not in a currently hot location.  $3500.00/month lease.  Lots of amenities and space, but $3500.00/month?  They ARE close to downtown in a quieter place.  Would probably mean an income of $70K/year for that lifestyle?  Not sure where that's all coming from.  But they are getting leased and more are being built down the street from them.

 

In 1978, when a fully-loaded (with sunroof) Caprice 4-dr just topped $10K MSRP, I thought that was stupid.  Why buy a Chevy for that price when other nicer cars could be had for similar money?  A valid point, back then.  And 40 years later, Cadillacs can top $100K with far more post-space age stuff than is really needed to get to the grocery store from home.  "The mess" is getting worse with time, it seems.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Larry Schramm]

17 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

 It is crazy.   And, all it takes is one clown not paying attention to total the $70k pick up that once the paperwork is signed depreciates $20k.   The insurance company will pay out what they think it is worth.  This then triggers additional GAP insurance to be paid just in case that happens.    For me, $70k is one heck of a start of retirement fund.  Sorry GM.  I'll rent a pick up when I need one.  

 

Here is some interesting reading on retirement account balances. I agree on not buying a $50K+ truck.  Too big of a hit on my retirement funds.

 

https://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2016/03/26/heres-what-the-average-baby-boomer-has-saved-for-r.aspx

[avgwarhawk]

17 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

 

My friend just retired. The salesman showed him how his 401K payout would pay for the truck so it really didn't cost him anything........ I didn't ask.................Bob

 

WC Fields had a saying.....  

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Here is some interesting reading on retirement account balances. I agree on not buying a $50K+ truck.  Too big of a hit on my retirement funds.

 

https://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2016/03/26/heres-what-the-average-baby-boomer-has-saved-for-r.aspx

 

Good article and one of many I have read concerning the lack of saving for retirement.   It should be interesting in the years to come.    The one best thing one can do is pay off their mortgage if they are able.  This is after all the largest expense for many....right behind the GM $100K Escalade. 😵    I don't know of any with a reverse mortgage on a Escalade. LOL

Edited December 4, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

I believe the Fields quote was something like.. " My dear old Grandfather Lipvock once said (just before they swung the trap). You cant cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump".

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

The one best thing one can do is pay off their mortgage if they are able. 

 

Or never acquire a mortgage that requires 2 incomes.................Bob

[avgwarhawk]

48 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

I believe the Fields quote was something like.. " My dear old Grandfather Lipvock once said (just before they swung the trap). You cant cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump".

 

Or PT Barnum..."Sucker born every minute."  

[avgwarhawk]

1 minute ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Or never acquire a mortgage that requires 2 incomes.................Bob

 

My wife and I were discussing the exact thinking last night!    Concluded the same.  Learn to live on one wage if at all possible.  

[Larry Schramm]

57 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

My wife and I were discussing the exact thinking last night!    Concluded the same.  Learn to live on one wage if at all possible.  

 

Paid the house off last September.  

[DAVES89]

Paying off my house allowed me to start buying cars as a hobby instead of just transportation. Only problem is it that interest was only one kind of car...