Fuel lines and fittings.

[Todd Maxwell]

I have a 1923 Maxwell. I am looking for a source for brass or copper-nickel fuel line and vintage brass fuel fittings. Any suggestions.

 

[stvaughn]

Amazon, The Stop Shop, NAPA, JEGS and others for the copper nickel fuel line. Don’t know about the fittings. 

[edinmass]

Fitting are expensive if you can find them. The price will shock you......figure about the same cost as making them........

[Mark Shaw]

I suggest you use flare fittings.  Just yesterday I installed new fuel lines in my 1915 Buick Speedster using 3/8" tubing and flare fittings.  Compression fittings will eventually fail due to vibration, but flare fittings are commonly used with a simple loop ahead of each connection to alleviate stress due to vibration.  A short length of rubber fuel tubing with hose clamps at each end can also be used to simplify connections.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[lozrocks]

7 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

I suggest you use flare fittings.  Just yesterday I installed new fuel lines in my 1915 Buick Speedster using 3/8" tubing and flare fittings.  Compression fittings will eventually fail due to vibration, but flare fittings are commonly used with a simple loop ahead of each connection to alleviate stress due to vibration.  A short length of rubber fuel tubing with hose clamps at each end can also be used to simplify connections.

 

Don't use loops in the fuel line. This is one of the main areas where air gets trapped or fuel vapour gets trapped.

[edinmass]

Also, modern flare fittings are not correct.......you need pre war style fittings and nuts.......

Edited November 20, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

http://www.cunifer.com for the copper/nickel tubing. I use it for the fuel systems on all my cars. Very pleased with the results. The Chinese stuff you get at Jeg's/Summit doesn't form as easily and is more brittle--I don't like it as much, but it's considerably cheaper.

 

Vintage fittings are problematic, but you can probably find some to do the car if you scour eBay long enough. Restoration Supply might also have some that will look mostly appropriate. I just did the whole fuel system on my 1935 Lincoln using the Cunifer tubing and flare fittings, but I re-used as many of the original flare nuts as possible to keep it looking authentic. I don't know how the mid-teens fittings differ from those in the 1930s, but even modern fittings in brass looked fairly correct for 1935. Maybe you could use them and upgrade to original fittings as you find them? I buy my fittings at McMaster-Carr and they're not expensive at all.

 

Good luck!

 

 

[HarryLime]

The old fittings have larger inside diameter. New fittings have smaller inside diameter. It is about restricting the fuel flow. The smallest ID is the flow speed of the entire system. Tubing size doesn't matter if you install one small fitting.

[Matt Harwood]

You can get flare fittings in all kinds of different sizes. I did my fuel lines in 5/16" tubing, but my oil filter had a 1/4" feed line and a 5/16" return. I also have some 1/2" tubing that I'm going to use on the heater lines. All the fittings were sized for the tubing, it wasn't just a one-size fits-all situation--fittings for the 5/16" tubing had an inside diameter that matched the tubing. Each fitting does produce some restriction due to turbulence, but it isn't like you're trying to cram a 3/8" line onto a 1/4" fitting. It should flow appropriately and a 1923 Maxwell shouldn't need a huge fuel line to feed it. If it's gravity-fed it might want slightly larger fuel lines, but all it has to do is trickle fuel into the carburetor bowl at about the same rate that it's flowing out. That's not really a lot of gas and even a minimal fuel system should be able to keep up. We built a 900 horsepower supercharged ZR-1 Corvette and that sucker had dual 1/2" fuel lines and sucked its 23-gallon fuel cell dry in about 13 minutes at full throttle. But that isn't a Maxwell. 1/4" lines combined with properly-sized fittings should deliver plenty of fuel for his application.

 

The real question is how accurate do they look? That part I don't really know.

 

Here's my Lincoln fuel system with 5/16" tubing and flare fittings:

 

  

 

The oil filter has 1/4" feed and 5/16" return. The fittings are obviously different sizes.

 

[Frank DuVal]

 

7 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

http://www.cunifer.com for the copper/nickel tubing. I use it for the fuel systems on all my cars. Very pleased with the results. The Chinese stuff you get at Jeg's/Summit doesn't form as easily and is more brittle--I don't like it as much, but it's considerably cheaper.

 

Hmm, that's interesting comment, as I have been buying my Cunifer from Summit Racing for a while now, the SUR&R brand, who clearly says they are American Made!

 

https://surrauto.com/brake/

 

It works fine for me. Inverted flares, bubble flares, push on GM fuel fittings, etc.

[stakeside]

Got my fittings at my local “ACE” Hardware. My 29 dodge truck has copper lines and the flare fittings seal very good.

[Todd Maxwell]

Matt. Where did you get your fittings for your Lincoln?  Thanks stateside. I will have to look for an ACE. 

[edinmass]

 Modern fittings don’t look anything like the correct vintage fitting.  It’s common to see so-called 100 point cars with all incorrect fittings.  Some cars only use a few but many of the big classics  use one or two dozen.  I’m always amazed that people by vintage radiator hose clamps,  reproduction wiring harness in cloth,  paint inspection marks as the factory used in  Assembly  but then I see 15 modern fittings on the fuel and oil system. 

[Curti]

Right on Ed !  I am unsure about all big classics, the fuel, oil, and vacuum copper lines were hand bent  by the Auburn factory lineman . All of those perfect bends made with a tubing bender  are over restoration.  Personally I dislike 'bling'.

[Matt Harwood]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

 Modern fittings don’t look anything like the correct vintage fitting.  It’s common to see so-called 100 point cars with all incorrect fittings.  Some cars only use a few but many of the big classics  use one or two dozen.  I’m always amazed that people by vintage radiator hose clamps,  reproduction wiring harness in cloth,  paint inspection marks as the factory used in  Assembly  but then I see 15 modern fittings on the fuel and oil system. 

 

2 hours ago, Curti said:

Right on Ed !  I am unsure about all big classics, the fuel, oil, and vacuum copper lines were hand bent  by the Auburn factory lineman . All of those perfect bends made with a tubing bender  are over restoration.  Personally I dislike 'bling'.

 

Wow. I can't tell you how great it makes me feel to see these comments about my work. Really makes me happy I spent the time and money to make it look good instead of just half-assing it like most guys (did you see the "before" photos of my car that someone else found perfectly acceptable?). Until this lovely Thanksgiving morning, I was really proud of that job, which cost several hundred dollars and took days and days of my time. Thanks, gentlemen, you really know how to make a guy feel good about trying to do quality work. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.

 

FYI, all the fittings visible in my Lincoln's engine bay are original. The original fuel lines were brass, but I chose Cunifer because it doesn't need to be annealed like brass and doesn't work harden and crack like copper. I feel that it looks more appropriate than stainless or mild steel, too. If you can't find 100% original fittings, at least using flare fittings will look somewhat correct. It obviously won't pass muster with experts (it appears that nothing ever will), but at least you'll have a safe, reliable fuel system that looks authentic enough for 99.6% of the folks out there. 

[Matt Harwood]

11 hours ago, Todd Maxwell said:

Matt. Where did you get your fittings for your Lincoln?  Thanks stateside. I will have to look for an ACE. 

 

https://www.mcmaster.com/flared-fittings

 

Use the 45-degree fittings for copper and brass tubing.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 11/20/2018 at 11:22 PM, Frank DuVal said:

 

 

Hmm, that's interesting comment, as I have been buying my Cunifer from Summit Racing for a while now, the SUR&R brand, who clearly says they are American Made!

 

https://surrauto.com/brake/

 

It works fine for me. Inverted flares, bubble flares, push on GM fuel fittings, etc.

 

 Right on Frank, right on. 

 

  Ben

[Frank DuVal]

18 hours ago, edinmass said:

 I’m always amazed that people by vintage radiator hose clamps,  reproduction wiring harness in cloth,  paint inspection marks as the factory used in  Assembly  but then I see 15 modern fittings on the fuel and oil system

 

Could it be the simple reason one can buy all those items you name from restoration suppliers, but to get the correct fittings means buying a lathe and making their own replacements or walking through Hershey several years in a row to find damaged ones. Where did you find the ones you used?

 

What judge would know they were incorrect and take off points? People going for trophies look at their judging sheets to see what to correct and better their score. No deduction,, no need to change!😉

 

Matt, your work looks great! You can still be proud.

[edinmass]

Depending on the application one can sometimes make modern fitting look very similar to the earlier type. Many of the high end cars used unique fittings with certain finishes. I have been collecting fittings for years, and a while back bought hundreds of them from a local obsolete parts dealer. Recently I saw a 100 point Pierce Arrow done by a very knowledgeable collector, the car was perfect except the fittings on the fuel pump, which he correctly stated are almost impossible to find, and very, very expensive to duplicate. I agreed, and sent him some from my stash for his car as a gift........I was just intrested in seeing his car be as correct as possible. I have been at this a very long time.........and I will share the most important thing I was ever taught in the car hobby, and it took me many years to embrace......always do the correct repair, to 100 percent of the best of your ability, taking no short cuts relative to time or money. It’s a hard lesson to learn, but cars that are fixed or restored considering cost or time are the one that always seem to break down, and sell for pennies on the dollar for what their owner think they are worth. When I see modern hose clamps, modern wires and coils, modern tractor type oil filters, ect......I know that every other part of the car was done on the cheap........and yes, I would estimate that 85 percent of the cars I look at are done this way.........and I just pass on buying them, knowing it’s going to take a fortune to make them right, and a year of sorting to get them to go down the road. Too many people do “good enough” work on their cars. They end up having much less enjoyment from their toys. Yes, I understand many or most people can’t afford to pay to have this type of work done, and many are not capable of doing it themselves. It’s human nature to want a car one or two steps up from financially from what they really can afford......I was in this category most of my life........but a correct and authentic car is the best option for reliability, aesthetics, and future resale. Cobbled up cars are just no fun. It’s also my experience that a temporary fix instantly becomes permanent if it works, no matter how bad or poorly it’s done. 

 

When possible I plan all repairs well in advance, acquire all parts necessary with additional ones I might need,  then I Service the car. A few years ago my 32 Pierce Coupe suffered a minor head crack. I had a spare on the shelf. I cleaned the spare head, magnafluxed it for cracks, surfaced ALL the gasket surfaces, primed and painted it, and had a new head gasket on hand also. The hard part was the head bolts in the car were incorrect. This was a 80 point twenty five foot driver.........and I knew it was going to cost me a fortune to make new stainless head bolts with the correct profile. It wouldn’t add ten cents to the value of the car, but it would cost me more than a grand to make them correctly. I practice what I preach. I took the extra time, and spent the money and put the right bolts in the car. It was the right thing to do. A very short time later someone came up to me at the PAS meet, and asked if my car was for sale........No, it’s not. While looking over the car and explaining to him  the new head and bolts he smiled and pushed me harder to sell.........I named a price, and he agreed on the spot.......it was more than he wanted to pay, but he knew my car was the best I could make it reguardless of cost.........I got my price, he got a great car, and has been enjoying it ever since. And.........he has twenty great and world class cars in his garage that he has never driven. It took him until he was in his late seventies to realize that cars done on the quick and cheap are no fun. He recently called me and said he’s enjoying the car more than anything he ever has in his life, and he recently did two thousand trouble free miles with my old car. I’m quite sure he is converted to the “do it right no matter what” theory of car restoration. 

 

This hobby is supposed to be fun, and commenting on incorrect parts, less than optimum repairs and such are NOT a  criticism of the person or the car, it’s an attempt to teach and instruct on correct repairs and methods of servicing a car. Would you accept your doctor, dentist, or CPA doing an “ok” or quick and dirty service for you? Too many people treat a car as a financial proposition.....if they can’t make money on it they don’t want it.......it’s a sure way to be disappointed both with the car and hobby. Fact.......old cars are EXPENSIVE...........no use trying to deny it.......if your tight with your money this isn’t the hobby you should choose. When I fix my car, a friends car, or a customers car I ALLWAYS do the best repair I can reguardless of cost. If the person can’t afford it, I understand and politely decline to do the work. I now no longer service other people’s cars for financial gain..........but I still only offer help and assistance on doing it correctly. I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving, all my best. Ed

Edited November 23, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Authentic? Correct? Do it right no matter what?

Just where is the line to be drawn to avoid having your car derided as not being the "real deal'?

Should your wind shield be plate glass, as original, to be "authentic". How about those "authentic" wires in your beauty. Perhaps we should scrape a bit of the fabric back to see if they are really varnished cotton or if maybe some PVC is hiding under there. Now about that new wood. Did you really specify hide or fish glue only be used. Authenticity you know. Now lets look at that authentic battery. Gutta percha case and real tar? Tsk. Tsk. Really nice chrome. Triple plated, hand buffed, no ripples. WOW, Just like the factory. Authentic! Beautiful paint job. Brush applied enamel is it? Oh, never mind. Hmmm.  Those fittings look suspect. You say you used them because re-pros would cost as much as the car did and modern ones don't leak or fail like the originals. Tsk. Tsk. If you can't afford to have new ones made you really shouldn't be in the "hobby". Where DID you find those authentic tires? Made of natural rudder and cotton cords are they? Oh I see?

Shall I go on? Better not. I'll likely be deleted for heresy as it is.

So where to draw the line and for what reason?

Authenticity?......... I'll bet the farm there does not exist one running, driving, stopping car that's an original and authentic pre war car.

Obsession to detail? .........That's fine but don't look down on others because they don't share your foibles.

Historic preservation? ..........Quixotic endeavor.

Bottom line there are any number of reasons to strive, or not, for the  non existent holy grail of AUTHENTICITY.

So looking down one's nose at the folks who just want to have fun, at a reasonable cost, with a car that looks reasonably original and is user and family friendly strikes me as out of touch with the meat and potatoes of the hobby.

So if that unobtainium part costs $$$$$$$$$$$ but you can get a perfectly serviceable near looking part for $ go ahead and put it on. I promise there will be no tut tuting from me.

Even though my collector cars are Grand National winners for originality and correct authenticity I know full well they are, like all the others,..... a phony.

Respectfully.................Bob

 

 

 

[stvaughn]

Well said Bhigdog,

 

From the AACA website:

 

“I suggest we neither take our antique automobiles to lightly, nor ourselves too seriously. He who tries to walk the proverbial chalk line, magnifying glass in one hand and book of rules in the other, may make no mistakes but he may make no friends either for, finding no joy in himself, he brings none to others.

 

Leslie R. Henry, President AACA, October 16, 1954

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by stvaughn
misspelled word (see edit history)

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, stvaughn said:

From the AACA website:

 

“I suggest we neither take our antique automobiles to lightly, nor ourselves to seriously. He who tries to walk the proverbial chalk line, magnifying glass in one hand and book of rules in the other, may make no mistakes but he may make no friends either for, finding no joy in himself, he brings none to others.

 

Leslie R. Henry, President AACA, October 16, 1954

Could I be so bold and daring to suggest that the first two tos should be toos.😉☺️🤔

[Bloo]

Today "older restorations" are often looked at with a bit of suspicion because the authenticity may be lacking. One can infer that "down to the last washer" authenticity in restoration is more common today than it was in the 1950s and 1960s.

 

As the cars get older and rarer in the future, people may care more than they do now. If the little details are not recorded while those who know them are still alive, the information will simply be lost. I do not see it as snobbery.

 

My cars are drivers and will not do well at any concours, nor even be invited. I really don't have a dog in this race. When rebuilding things on my cars I do try to push them closer to authentic where I can. Old threads on this forum have been very useful to me. Thank you all.

 

Please, let's put our pride aside and record the little details for people in the future who may care more than we do.

[Bhigdog]

46 minutes ago, Tinindian said:

Could I be so bold and daring to suggest that the first two tos should be toos.😉☺️🤔

 And may I suggest your question be followed by a ? rather than a . ? ............Bob

[Matt Harwood]

Then you guys are gonna HATE what I'm doing with those heater hoses. That NOS piece of wire hanging from the core support? In the trash. I thought it was too "blingy" anyway.

[stvaughn]

1 hour ago, Tinindian said:

Could I be so bold and daring to suggest that the first two tos should be toos.😉☺️🤔

You may since I misspelled the second “too” from the quote. The first “to” is as quoted. I did however take the liberty to change one misspelled word in the quote but I’m not telling which one. 

😎

 

[1935Packard]

Interesting exchange!  It could/should be published as dueling columns in the CCCA magazine.   I wonder if both sides are right, though, depending on the circles and circumstances we're talking about.  In circles that have the financial resources to sufficiently value perfect attention to detail, the attention to value matters and is worth it.  In circles that are focused on just having fun, the cost to get it exactly correct may make no sense.     

[Curti]

No restoration can be 100% original and correct.  I will say, it is much easier to over restore than it is to do the research.

[edinmass]

I always find it interesting people want to restore a car, but won’t make an effort to try and do just the minimum research. Recently a restoration shop painted an engine light gray, because they saw the same year engine on an internet photo..........the year and series were listed wrong on the photo, thus a car with a black engine had its painted gray. As it was being assembled the owner posted a photo of the car 85 percent done, with the hood off. I asked why they painted the engine the wrong color...........I was told I was an idiot.........then a short time later the car showed up on the show field with a black engine. Basic research is very easy, and many people are willing to help. Sometimes there is a difference of opinion, but most time it’s on small items easy to correct even after the car is finished. Benefit of the doubt should always go to the car. Recently I saw a 1933 sedan with factory installed turn signals and a aircraft type compass on the windshield header, both done very well, I was quite impressed. Either option would have never occurred to me at such an early date. I think most reatorations can be 99 percent accurate and authentic with less than twenty hours effort. It’s much more time consuming finding the right parts than it is doing the research. It took me two years to find correct NOS plugs for a car that we were doing the show circuit with. It’s this type of attention to detail that I enjoy.......no matter how frustrating and time consuming it can be.

[JACK M]

So, Agree to disagree?

I can understand both sides. Not necessarily agree with both sides.

Edited November 24, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Todd, I'm very sorry, we've gone astray on your topic. Don't let any of this get inside your head. It's really all BS. This is a hobby surrounding old machinery, we aren't preserving the Magna Carta or the Mona Lisa for the future. These are just toys for grown ups which we sometimes take much too seriously.

 

I commend you on using hard line for your fuel system, which is the right choice for a car of your Maxwell's vintage. Rubber will inevitably leak and fail and definitely looks wrong. The specifics are up to you and I personally think the important thing is to get your car running so you can enjoy it. A vast, vast majority of folks won't know the difference if you have a 1923 Maxwell fitting or a 1928 Chevrolet fitting or a 2018 Home Depot fitting on your car, and in the grand scheme of things, it matters naught. If your tubing bends are too perfect, well, I wouldn't sweat it. If they're not perfect enough, that's OK, too. Avoid kinks and hard bends and everything else will work just fine when you go to, you know, use it as a car.

 

Make it safe and reliable then go out and have fun behind the wheel with your family and friends. That's what really matters and is why most of us are here.

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s much more time consuming finding the right parts than it is doing the research. It took me two years to find correct NOS plugs for a car that we were doing the show circuit with. It’s this type of attention to detail that I enjoy.......no matter how frustrating and time consuming it can be.

Ed correctly points out the distinction between show cars for heavy venues such as Pebble and Amelia, and those done for regional concours/shows and--dare I say--actual DRIVING.

 

I had my one moment in the sun at Pebble in 2010 and installed NOS vintage plugs for that event ONLY then returned to Autolite 3076 as more reliable for driving.

 

In those venues, Ed is absolutely correct that every detail has value for judging, where virtually every restored car has been done to a very high standard.  On the other hand, in my dotage I am much more interested in driving these cars (1,500 miles on my 100-year-old car in four weeks on three tours this year) and often say "I'll let the guy who buys it from my estate re-restore it."

[stakeside]

Out

[Todd Maxwell]

I have a driver. That being said any time you change something it affects the next thing. My car has an incorrect carb and vacuum and. Then an electric fuel pump that bypasses the vacuum tank. It is running very rich. So I found a correct carb and it is about rebuilt. I am also working on a correct vacuum tank. Why not. I need to re connect the fuel and vacuum lines. I believe I have the original fuel fittings. I am missing a vacuum fitting at the vacuum tank. There is a fitting on the oil pump where the line was originally. then there are some parts tapped into the exhaust manifold. I need to remove the original fitting from the oil pump to see how they plugged it and if it is reusesble. Then I need to source one to connect to the vacuum tank. I believe it was a compression fitting as there is not a corresponding flare to mate to. The fuel line is 1/4 inch od and I think I will use copper nickel tube to replace both fuel and vacuum lines.

[lump]

Geez, I have quite a lot of older brass fittings, which were my Dad's back when he was in AACA in the early 1960's. Maybe I should dig them out? Interesting thought. 

[PFitz]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:57 PM, Todd Maxwell said:

I have a driver. That being said any time you change something it affects the next thing. My car has an incorrect carb and vacuum and. Then an electric fuel pump that bypasses the vacuum tank. It is running very rich. So I found a correct carb and it is about rebuilt. I am also working on a correct vacuum tank. Why not. I need to re connect the fuel and vacuum lines. I believe I have the original fuel fittings. I am missing a vacuum fitting at the vacuum tank. There is a fitting on the oil pump where the line was originally. then there are some parts tapped into the exhaust manifold. I need to remove the original fitting from the oil pump to see how they plugged it and if it is reusesble. Then I need to source one to connect to the vacuum tank. I believe it was a compression fitting as there is not a corresponding flare to mate to. The fuel line is 1/4 inch od and I think I will use copper nickel tube to replace both fuel and vacuum lines.

 

 

 You might want to check into setting your carb up for whichever fuel delivery system your going to use for driving.  Vacuum tanks, and original mechanical fuel pumps, can be made to work and do a very good job if properly rebuilt by someone who really knows how, and not just a quick rinse and put in some gaskets.

 

Changing from a vacuum tank with only about 1/2 to 3/4 psi pressure at the carburetor, to even the low pressure electic pumps, will raise the carb float level and make it run rich. 

 

Paul

[edinmass]

32 minutes ago, PFitz said:

 

 

 You might want to check into setting your carb up for whichever fuel delivery system your going to use for driving.  Vacuum tanks, and original mechanical fuel pumps, can be made to work and do a very good job if properly rebuilt by someone who really knows how, and not just a quick rinse and put in some gaskets.

 

Changing from a vacuum tank with only about 1/2 to 3/4 psi pressure at the carburetor, to even the low pressure electic pumps, will raise the carb float level and make it run rich. 

 

Paul

 

Very good comments Paul........problem is most floats can't handle even one pound of pressure from an electric fuel pump, and fire is a most definate possibility. Recently a V-16 Cadillac running on electric fuel pumps lit up under the hood and cooked the car...........a pressure leak gas fire is INCREDIBLY dangerous. They got the fire out after a time.....but they had used powdered fire extinguishers.........another BIG mistake.........lesson to be learned is MOST people don't have the skills or proper tools and equipment to do a safe changeover. Todays fuel has a different specific gravity and thus you need to modify the needle and seat, make a better float that will apply more upward pressure on the valve, and adjust the float height accordingly. Just about every conversion I have seen.........98 out of 100 are not safe or done in a workman like manner. 

[Mark Shaw]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 1:27 PM, lozrocks said:

 

Don't use loops in the fuel line. This is one of the main areas where air gets trapped or fuel vapour gets trapped.

 Horizontal loops will not trap air when fuel enters the loop from the top.

[Stude Light]

Todd,

One thing that I always notice on flare fittings is the flare nut used.  Pictured is what you typically find in the hardware store on the left, an original 20s nut in the center and something I found on eBay on the right. I was also able to find nuts shaped liked the one on the left but as tall as the others so I turned it down on the lathe to look like the center one. It sounds as though I'm a bit like Mr. Harwood as I turned down the one on the right to get an exact match to the center one (hey, I like things to be right and it wasn't slender enough in the middle).  

Scott

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-Brass-Long-Flare-Nut-PartNo-F40008-JonesStephens/162531209387?hash=item25d79d70ab:g:u1UAAOSwCVtcFHbB

Edited December 16, 2018 by Stude Light (see edit history)