A pet peeve - the hobby is dying and old cars are junk

[edinmass]

Thought for the day........."endeavor to persevere."

[Restorer32]

I have been accused of pusillanimous obfuscation but in reality I  totally  eschew obfuscation.

[Big Beat]

I'm 50 years old and have been into old cars since long before I was old enough to drive. I wanted to get into the hobby as a teenager, but had neither the money nor the space to keep a car off the street. Maintaining one car was hard enough then. In my 20s I could not afford anything but marginal junk. My first and only project car was a '70 Pontiac Catalina, which eventually had to be junked due to a rusted frame. It made me realize that I am not a restorer and that a decent hobby car was out of my league. For the next 10-15 years, I put the dream on hold. I was still going to Hershey, still buying car history books, but there was no car to back all that up, though once I almost bought a '58 Chevy. In my late 30s, I finally pulled the trigger on a nice, clean '79 Monte Carlo - exactly like my first car that I owned as a teen, right down to the color. It's a very nice car and I enjoy it very much. But if I hadn't bought it when I did, I probably wouldn't be able to justify the expense at current prices.  And anything more "interesting" than a Monte, I can still only dream about. My main interest is in the cars of the 1940s to the early 1950s - definitely pre-dating any possible personal experience - but realistically, I cannot see myself being in the market for another old car anytime soon. While I have more resources now than I did when I was younger, a serious project is still a non-starter and decent examples of cars that really interest me are still out of my league. So to me, the hobby isn't really dying,  it was always a bit out of reach. And if you're wondering why cars aren't selling, well, I'm one example. Under different circumstances, I might have been one of those hoarders  with a property full of rotting "someday-I'll-restore-its". Thankfully, I'm disciplined enough to enjoy and preserve one good car,  even if it's just a '79 Chevy, rather than a junkyard full of unattainable dreams.

[Joe in Canada]

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 1:32 PM, John348 said:

 

The part of the hobby that the price of fuel has an affect on is participation. That really applies to pulling a trailer X,000 of miles to go play some of those on a fixed income might be forced to think about it. When I take one out for a ride the cheapest part of the day is gas in the tank.

 We are planning to participate in the Sentimental tour in Mississippi in November coming all the way from outside of Toronto. My 2500 GMC gas will get me between 8 to 10 mi. to the gallon depending of the terrain and if I take the enclosed or open trailer. Plus my car for the event gets about 8 miles to the gallon that I will be bringing. For as much as I drive the truck or old cars gas is not an issue seeing they all sit most of the time. The $$$ exchange does bother me at times especially when buying a car in the US.

[Pomeroy41144]

3 hours ago, Big Beat said:

 

 

 

I'm 50 years old and have been into old cars since long before I was old enough to drive. I wanted to get into the hobby as a teenager, but had neither the money nor the space to keep a car off the street. Maintaining one car was hard enough then. In my 20s I could not afford anything but marginal junk. My first and only project car was a '70 Pontiac Catalina, which eventually had to be junked due to a rusted frame. It made me realize that I am not a restorer and that a decent hobby car was out of my league. For the next 10-15 years, I put the dream on hold. I was still going to Hershey, still buying car history books, but there was no car to back all that up, though once I almost bought a '58 Chevy. In my late 30s, I finally pulled the trigger on a nice, clean '79 Monte Carlo - exactly like my first car that I owned as a teen, right down to the color. It's a very nice car and I enjoy it very much. But if I hadn't bought it when I did, I probably wouldn't be able to justify the expense at current prices.  And anything more "interesting" than a Monte, I can still only dream about. My main interest is in the cars of the 1940s to the early 1950s - definitely pre-dating any possible personal experience - but realistically, I cannot see myself being in the market for another old car anytime soon. While I have more resources now than I did when I was younger, a serious project is still a non-starter and decent examples of cars that really interest me are still out of my league. So to me, the hobby isn't really dying,  it was always a bit out of reach. And if you're wondering why cars aren't selling, well, I'm one example. Under different circumstances, I might have been one of those hoarders  with a property full of rotting "someday-I'll-restore-its". Thankfully, I'm disciplined enough to enjoy and preserve one good car,  even if it's just a '79 Chevy, rather than a junkyard full of unattainable dreams.

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Hang in there.  There are plenty of 4 door sedans from the 40s and 50s that are really affordable.  I have seen some nice Buick sedans come and go for cheap on this forum.  Get an envelope and write "Antique Car" on it.  Start putting money in it little by little.  Ten here, five here---it all adds up.  Good luck. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited March 15, 2018 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[Lahti35]

I'm 38... I was started in the hobby by my grandfather in the late 80's who had been involved with it since the 40's. This year marks the last time I will add a car to my stable with the addition of a touring car. I've let my memberships laps and am done doing restorations. Joy rides in the cars will be restricted to our vacation and ice cream trips with the occasional small local cruise-in where we can get a meal.

 

There have been a lot of nice folks I've met in the hobby who would give you the shirt off their back... but lately in the last 10 years or so I've met way too many critical enthusiasts, crotchety old people, swindlers, and shady sellers who have no problem trying to take advantage. One day while dealing with a seller headache a while ago I realized it just wasn't fun anymore so I figured it was time to cut back, call it good and invest a lot of that time in another hobby.

 

 I'll still enjoy my cars 110% but I won't miss the clique crowds and those who are out for every last $$$ out of my wallet. Maybe I've just had bad luck but I think the new direction I've chosen to go will be immensely more enjoyable for my wife and I.

[Xander Wildeisen]

7 minutes ago, Lahti35 said:

I'm 38... I was started in the hobby by my grandfather in the late 80's who had been involved with it since the 40's. This year marks the last time I will add a car to my stable with the addition of a touring car. I've let my memberships laps and am done doing restorations. Joy rides in the cars will be restricted to our vacation and ice cream trips with the occasional small local cruise-in where we can get a meal.

 

There have been a lot of nice folks I've met in the hobby who would give you the shirt off their back... but lately in the last 10 years or so I've met way too many critical enthusiasts, crotchety old people, swindlers, and shady sellers who have no problem trying to take advantage. One day while dealing with a seller headache a while ago I realized it just wasn't fun anymore so I figured it was time to cut back, call it good and invest a lot of that time in another hobby.

 

 I'll still enjoy my cars 110% but I won't miss the clique crowds and those who are out for every last $$$ out of my wallet. Maybe I've just had bad luck but I think the new direction I've chosen to go will be immensely more enjoyable for my wife and I.

There are many problems in this industry/hobby/trade. A lot of them are going to come to the surface out here. Along with a host of other things. It is sad that you have run into so many bad deals, that have turned you away from some aspects/events in this industry. I could share some things with you that would send anybody running. What I have been put through, shows how far down a road people have let things go out here. An honest conversation is coming.

[60FlatTop]

 

3 hours ago, Lahti35 said:

but lately in the last 10 years or so I've met way too many critical enthusiasts, crotchety old people, swindlers, and shady sellers who have no problem trying to take advantage. One day while dealing with a seller headache a while ago I realized it just wasn't fun anymore so I figured it was time to cut back, call it good and invest a lot of that time in another hobby.

 

 

They have always been there. You grew up and started paying attention to them. They were at the old Rochester Public Market in 1961, at the RIT show in the '60's and '70's. They stood next to their 30 or 40 year old Ford back then in bid overalls, gray hair falling out exposing those liver spots on their head, and they would point a pale, palsied , old, gnarly finger at you, and start every sentence with "Sonny". In 1984, walking around a used car lot in Moline, IL, they all vaporized and I took the hobby for myself, on my own terms, and at my own standards. Boy, has it been good since then.

[J.H.Boland]

I have encountered thieves and shysters in this hobby since I got involved with it in the '60's. There was always someone spray painting a rusty part and selling it as "rebuilt". If you put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig.The older I get,the more cynical I become,but I still love the old cars and many friends I have made over the years.No matter what your interests,there will always be someone trying to make a fast buck off you. Even just owning a computer can be trying.I've been awakened at all hours of the night by some scammer with limited knowledge of English trying to tell me that I have a problem with my computer and they will help me fix it. My civility has evaporated on such occasions, and hopefully they will learn to "let sleeping dogs lie".

Jim

[1912Staver]

As is pointed out in the above posts the counterproductive / self serving / opportunistic people have always been there. And with a little  experience a person can generally spot them and  minimize their effect.

  What most of us can't avoid however is the rise in old car hobby costs that clearly outpaces the increase in many of our disposable income's. In fact quite a few of us are seeing no increase or in some cases even a decrease in our disposable income over time.  And yet many aspects of the old car hobby are seeing a distinct increase in cost. Probably the most obvious would be the price of decent paint and plating. Never cheap regardless of what point in the history of the hobby you look at , in the last decade or so these costs have sharply increased. However the general trend is rising costs at or above the general rate of inflation, and therefore at least a little faster than many wage increases.

  We can do little except rein back our involvement in the hobby or lower our expectations or probably a combination of the two.

 A further effect can be that restorations that at one time could be completed in a timely manner, now drag on indefinitely awaiting funds . And we all know that delays of this sort often result in a stalled project and the possibility that the owner will give up altogether. 

  Unfortunately it is a problem that has little current hope of a solution. And it is probably one of the main factors keeping younger people out of the hobby. So the health of the hobby as a whole as well as individual satisfaction is potentially effected. 

 

All in all a troubling state of affairs.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 16, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[mike6024]

On 1/30/2018 at 3:34 PM, R.White said:

My Mother used to accuse me of being "deliberately obtuse".

 But in reality you were just ostensibly obtuse.

Edited March 16, 2018 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Lahti35]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

 

 

They have always been there. You grew up and started paying attention to them. They were at the old Rochester Public Market in 1961, at the RIT show in the '60's and '70's. They stood next to their 30 or 40 year old Ford back then in bid overalls, gray hair falling out exposing those liver spots on their head, and they would point a pale, palsied , old, gnarly finger at you, and start every sentence with "Sonny". In 1984, walking around a used car lot in Moline, IL, they all vaporized and I took the hobby for myself, on my own terms, and at my own standards. Boy, has it been good since then.

 

 

Liver spots, lol. Too funny.

 

Maybe they just seem more numerous due to the internet and ease of connecting with people these days, or maybe there are just more people looking for a fast buck with Barrett Jackson prices firing up the greedy. Whatever it is, I'm not enjoying it. 

 

At any rate, you are correct. I'm taking "the hobby for myself, on my own terms"... liver spot free!

[Grimy]

10 minutes ago, Lahti35 said:

liver spot free

For now, my friend.  If you're lucky, you'll live long enough to get them,  And when you do, remember your (valid) critique and try to be a mentor to the younger enthusiasts, and not the grouchy old buggers that Bernie and I remember.

 

That said, I remember well those mentors who taught me rather than criticized, when it would have been easy and valid to do the latter.  Almost all of them are gone now, but I think of them often and fondly, and try to pay their kindnesses forward. 

[Big Beat]

On 3/15/2018 at 11:00 AM, Pomeroy41144 said:

Hang in there.  There are plenty of 4 door sedans from the 40s and 50s that are really affordable.  I have seen some nice Buick sedans come and go for cheap on this forum.  Get an envelope and write "Antique Car" on it.  Start putting money in it little by little.  Ten here, five here---it all adds up.  Good luck. 

 

 

It's not the initial purchase. Practically anyone can scrape together a few hundred or a few thousand to buy some kind of old car. But that is only the first installment. To someone not able to do most of the work themselves, the cost of the restoration becomes prohibitive very quickly. In my case, there is also not enough spare time due to work and family demands, nor any ready storage space for another car. This is exactly why I wrote above about an accumulation of neglected project cars. There were many cars that I  could have probably managed to buy over the years. But even if I found some place to store it, even if the car in question would be in decent enough condition to remain in running order while the work on it was being done, I knew that the process would drag on for many, many years because realistically I just wouldn't be able to devote enough time or money to  it. Some people are happy enough to buy an old car, let it sit somewhere and dream about "some day".  I'm not that person. But I'll be ready when my "some day" comes.  

[Pomeroy41144]

Big Beat: 

 

I am NOT talking about a full-blown restoration project. 

 

I am saying that he can get into a running 1940s or 1950s  4DR Sedan relatively cheaply. 

 

I never mentioned a restoration. 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

You need to be highly skilled or wealthy to restore most cars.  The nicest car you can afford will also be the cheapest car you can buy.

[padgett]

+1 - When starting it is best to buy the best interesting (to you) car you can find, one that you can enjoy now while doing what ever you want to/with it. Something that is apart in the garage is not a fun car, it quick become neglected. Key is to research and decide on the make/model/options/color you want and then look everywhere. The hunt is part of the fun. Last car I bought involved researching nearly a hundred cars before I found the right one and took about four months. Key is to never "settle", what you want is out there somewhere (but then I enjoy the early computer cars of the '80s with touchscreens in the dash).

[Big Beat]

Which is exactly what I did when I bought my '79 Monte. Even for something as (once) common as that, it was a very long search before the right one came along. I have written up that whole story on another site, if anyone's interested: 

 

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/cars-of-a-lifetime/coal-1979-chevrolet-monte-carlo-time-is-on-my-side/

 

So I am a living illustration to all the above comments. When I bought an old car, it wasn't a Model A or a '57 Chevy, it was one from my teens, something with a very personal connection. And I made sure that it was hands down the nicest and most original example of that model that I could find.

 

But when it comes to older cars that interest me, anything in that kind of condition will be more than I can spend. So unless I get very lucky somehow, it would have to be some kind of project, even if not necessarily a total restoration. Unless the predictions are right and by the time I can justify owning more than one old car, they will become more affordable. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Big Beat (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Very nice car. 

 

I'm not a huge fan of the later 70's cars, but yours seems to keep the styling of a slightly earlier time. 

 

My second brand new car was a 1973 Cutlass Salon, in the same color, so it brings back memories. I'd love to find a really nice '73 Salon, but most of the ones that you see of that year are Supremes.

 

 

[1912Staver]

Projects definitely aren't for everyone. And as long as a car like a 3rd gen Monte is something that someone finds interesting enough , why not.  

  I have always seen old cars as a process. To me the project stage is quite important. It is the way I become familiar with not only the car itself but also the engineering of the day , the manufacturing technology of the era. The personalities behind the car, designer, engineer , president and other people that gave birth to the vehicle. And the era in 20th Century culture that the car spent its first 20 years or so as a daily use machine in.  That is why I have a few cars , from a pretty wide span of history.  I find them all interesting , from the oldest {1912} to the newest {1974}. They are all very different, a snapshot of the culture and technology of their day. And yes I have had nearly all of them nearly all apart. I have even put some of them back together.  The driving side of the hobby is fine;however to me it's mainly about the nuts and bolts, and all the background research and learning that is so much more involved than just using them.

Greg in Canada

[J.H.Boland]

5 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

  The driving side of the hobby is fine;however to me it's mainly about the nuts and bolts, and all the background research and learning that is so much more involved than just using them.

Greg in Canada

 

I agree,Gregg.My collection ranges from 1921 to 1992. I bought my '78 GMC Caballero new 40 years ago this summer and the '92 Park Avenue as a daily driver in 2000 and just never tired of them.I bought the 3 1920's cars because I love the styling and the history.I try to amass as much corporate and personal history on each car as I can find. When showing them,many people find this information fascinating. Talking enthusiastically to spectators at car shows about your vintage ride may rub off on them, hopefully and especially the young 'uns.

Jim

[Dynaflash8]

4 hours ago, Ben Perfitt said:

I have to ask - you mentioned a 2017 LaCrosse. Have you run into any transmission/shifter issues with it?

I have a 2018 - ran into something interesting, and I don’t think the dealer or GM are allowed to tell me the full truth of what caused it.

No, because I hated that car so much that I traded it in on a Chrysler 300 Limited in August 2018 after buying the Buick in 2018.  Lost 7K on it, but was super-duper glad to be rid of it.

[John_Mereness]

On 3/22/2018 at 7:07 PM, alsancle said:

You need to be highly skilled or wealthy to restore most cars.  The nicest car you can afford will also be the cheapest car you can buy.

That being said, the last 30's car I restored had a 35K chrome bill, a 25K interior and top bill, and ... - and I can tell you of people who paid less and got very nice work and I can tell you people that paid 4 times more and I can put a magnifying glass to the work.  The cost of materials is far from cheap and that does effect value and ...

 

[John_Mereness]

On 1/29/2018 at 12:01 PM, alsancle said:

 

I think the price of run of the mill projects will approach scrap value eventually.   But, I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a Classic  car dealer almost 20 years ago.  At that point I was on the way younger side of the curve, and I was convinced demographics would cause prices to head down, if not collapse.   He laughed at me.  The particular cars we were talking about are up 200-250% since that conversation.

I recently looked at an unrestored Pierce Arrow Sedan in base model equipment - wood wheels, rear mount spare, and ... needing totally done, but as nice a car as you would ever want to find to restore (super straight and seemingly decent wood all be it a few points were questionable) and the problem is the work it requires would cost 3 to 4 times the value of the car upon compilation (or you would have to personally have all the skills needed from paint to upholstery to engine rebuilding matched to the other option of doing really marginal end product work  and being happy with the sub-par work).

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

being happy with the sub-par work

 

You can get away with a lot of sub-par work. All you have to do is distract them with some big, blatant error.

 

Shortly after I met my, in her fairy tale life, Wife, I painted her '68 Falcon wagon with a brush. It looked pretty good. The first thing she saw it she asked why there was a big daub of red paint on the rear window. "Keeps 'em from looking for perfection" I told her confidently.

Edited May 26, 2019 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[alsancle]

31 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

That's right, cheaper to paint your self by brush. An old pickup can be painted with house latex; I've seen it done.

 

 

Not exactly a brush, but 35 years ago it was still possible to paint like this  in a backyard garage (really an oversized lean to), using an ancient single stage compressor and simple Lacquer.    This picture is a year old taken by Ed, and the work has held up great.   BUT,  the guys that can do that job, and are willing to show up to your garage are all gone now.   I'm guessing a 100k to do that paint now. 

[60FlatTop]

The brush was not the point. It was knowing the first look would be one to see what flaws caught the eye. Anyone can do sub-par work, it is using the obvious flaw to distract the casual, self appointed judge that needs to suit the audience. In the old car hobby it doesn't take long to figure out the "territory".

 

Par was a good choice of words for this topic. One of my little games is to innocently take statements literally, then repeat it back in a very bewildered manner. Like the old golfer said "That's par for the course, but we never thought anyone would make it".

 

It'd sport to git the old mavins when you can.

[John_Mereness]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

Not exactly a brush, but 35 years ago it was still possible to paint like this  in a backyard garage (really an oversized lean to), using an ancient single stage compressor and simple Lacquer.    This picture is a year old taken by Ed, and the work has held up great.   BUT,  the guys that can do that job, and are willing to show up to your garage are all gone now.   I'm guessing a 100k to do that paint now. 

I have been via CCCA at 99.5, 99.0, and 98.5 now with various cars that had some certain portion painted in the driveway (all be it 10 years now since the 99.5, but some of the work on that car was 20 years old then) - works fine if you take care.

 

As a sidenote:  We never had a go to house car-painter around here that I recall.  However, a good friend did house calls for maintenance for years (making a living at it too, with his prior living restoring cars for Ned Herman of Vintage Garage in Cincinnati - the RR PI you see Ed in is one of the cars he did) and I set him up with quite a few of his clients - though he now suffers from both Parkinsons and ALS.  As his diseases  progressed, I occasionally met him out at their houses and helped with anything he could not - and now all is out of the question.   And, that is where I learned A to Z about Rolls Royce's and ...  I still help friends, but the exchange rate is lunch or dinner, though not as much call for such any more -  has a lot to do with age of people selling their cars and so few early cars in our area anymore (I help to keep significantcars.com busy).  

 

All being said, the Austin Healey Club here makes house calls as a group and only requirement is you provide pizza, beer, and ... - pretty fun too !!! 

1963 AH BJ7 MKII that just turned I think 63K miles

 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[autoluke]

John M

 

Any chance that you will be attending the upcoming Hershey event ?

 

Phil

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

You can get away with a lot of sub-par work. All you have to do is distract them with some big, blatant error.

 

Shortly after I met my, in her fairy tale life, Wife, I painted her '68 Falcon wagon with a brush. It looked pretty good. The first thing she saw it she asked why there was a big daub of red paint on the rear window. "Keeps 'em from looking for perfection" I told her confidently.

Hilariously true  !!!  Quick, look over there

[John_Mereness]

21 minutes ago, autoluke said:

John M

 

Any chance that you will be attending the upcoming Hershey event ?

 

Phil

The last time I went to Hershey was Junior year of High School (1982)  -could not make it Senior year due to back surgery, could not make it the following year due to breaking the back surgery and having to have it redone, then we had college, law school, jobs with no available time, and ...    I do have people bring stuff and have friends pick it up.   Where you see me most these days is Concours d'Elegance events, some local and regional shows, and periodically an auction. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

40 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Hilariously true  !!!  Quick, look over there

 

30 year old quote from my friend Mike looking at a car I was getting ready to sell.

"Why are you putting dirt on that fresh paint?!"