Deal gone bad, what to do?

[Buffalowed Bill]

My lady who's a car person has been asking me if I posed this question to the forum about her car deal that had gone bad. I'm still not sure if this is appropriate, but she persists in asking!  She has had for sale a 1946 Studebaker Champion business coupe, for some time. It's a decent, mostly rust free original 60K mile car Northwest car, 100% complete and running, maybe ten exist. Not trying to sell it here, just setting the table.

 

She got a call from an excited gentleman from NY. His first car was a 1946 coupe, which he drove through his college years. He was new to the old car world but his research had told him that his dream of finding and owning his boyhood car was remote. Contact made, pictures sent, he was jazzed wanted the car. The check was in the mail, he would arrange for shipping. That was two Fridays ago, the next day she got a call from the gentleman. He had taken pictures to his restorer and it was "going to cost more then he wanted to spend". He stopped payment on the check end of story for him, or is it, or should it be? She asked me to include the $5000 agreed price, why it makes a difference I don't know.

 

We have the check and an enclosed note of acceptance. In my world a deal is a deal, a handshake enough to seal the transaction. Checked with a few trusted old car friends and they agree. As far as I am concerned there are both legal and moral imperatives involved. I talked to an attorney friend who indicated that the buyer could be held responsible for damages or extra incurred costs, but unless there is need for transport and future storage I don't know what they would be. I doubt that she would follow through anyway, so mostly hypothetical.

 

Are my friends and I really out of touch with today's reality? What do others think about the legal and moral obligations regarding this?  

 

 

[Guest]

You asked, so here goes..... I wouldn't waste my time for $5,000. I'm no lawyer, but the guy decided he doesn't want the car. Should he have thought it through before making the deal and getting your friend's hopes up? Of course. Is he a "stand up" guy? Doesn't seem so.  However, I don't see where he did any real damage. ( other than to his own reputation.) At least he had did call when he changed his mind- he could have just stopped the check and never contacted her. I'd forget it.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Guest
spelling (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

It is easy to see others' faults.

I agree that the buyer's action wasn't the most thoughtful,

but can't you forgive a newcomer who was excited to find a car

of his dreams--but who evidently jumped into water

over his head and decided he couldn't afford to restore it?

 

Some lawyer might tell you otherwise, figure some

purported loss, come up with an arcane legal theory,

and go after the new Studebaker fan for the last copper penny;

but remember how people don't like that type of behavior?

It's a lot better to be forgiving and understanding.

 

Remember how we say we're in this hobby to HELP each other.

Let that man's entrance into the hobby be something

he'll remember as positive.  I'd go all the way in the OPPOSITE

direction and even introduce him to a Studebaker club where

he can make further contacts. 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[keiser31]

I agree with the "let it go" advice and move on. All you are going to do is get stressed out and waste your time. If it's that rare, you should have no trouble at all selling it.

Edited August 23, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Amphicar BUYER]

Sadly you are probably under water so to speak. It could cost more than it's worth to pursue it. It's a bad experience but you are not out anything and still have the car to sell. 

 

I always demand a reasonable NON-REFUNDABLE deposit before I consider it sold, taking down the ad. If they won'y pony up say $250 or 10%, they are not serious. If they do, put it in writing that it is non-refundable. Once the $250 is in hand (not just the check, it must clear 1st), hold the car for a predetermined amount of time spelled out in the contract. If it's not picked up by then, it goes up for sale again and you have $500 for the trouble. This has worked for me 100% of the time. This weeds out the idiots that will get you to hold the car while they ask mom to co-sign. If you are holding it, then you may be missing a real buyer with cash in hand.

 

I do offer a payment plan as well. 100% down and $0 a month.

[Matt Harwood]

If I sold a car to every guy who said he'd take it, I'd sell five times as many cars as I do. People cancel deals at the last minute with all kinds of stupid excuses, and if you put a car on Ebay, you're already accustomed to the "accidental" buyer who didn't mean to hit the button. I have guys who negotiate for days, finally get me to agree to a price, then vanish without a trace and refuse to honor the deal they negotiated. I even collect deposits that the buyers know are non-refundable and still they bail. People DO NOT want to buy an old car. Once they have the chance to lay awake at night and really think about it, they'll talk themselves out of it 99 times out of 100.

Yes, in the world where we have a strong idea of right and wrong, it makes sense to somehow force the guy to honor his word, but in truth, there's no way to compel someone to buy a car they don't want. You could probably cash the guy's check and cause all kinds of headaches for him (stop payments don't really render the check null and void, it's still good and it'll take weeks to disentangle the whole thing), but that would be a crummy move on your part. It would be nice if people who make deals would honor them, but getting cold feet about an old car purchase happens more often than not. To be honest, I usually expect a deal to fall apart and am still surprised when they go through, and I sell a dozen cars a month.

 

Forget lawyers--you'll spend five times this much money trying to enforce a generally unenforceable contract. If it was a $5 million Ferrari, well, then maybe, but the first thing the opposing counsel will ask is, "What are your damages?" Well? What are they? Zip. You are in exactly the same place you were before this buyer approached you. You have not been materially harmed by his actions. You were excited and then disappointed, but there's no way to compensate someone for that.

 

What you think should happen and what really happens aren't the same thing in this case. Let him go and move on to the next buyer. It'll be OK.

[joe_padavano]

I have to agree with the consensus here - let it go.  I don't know what this letter looks like, or if it will be held up in court as a binding contract, but even if it is, you'll spend far more than $5K to get that money.  Apparently she still owns the car.  Were other buyers turned down during the period that the car was "sold"?  If so, you might have a case for damages, but good luck with that.  If not, it's no harm, no foul. 

[Amphicar BUYER]

Just a few weeks ago I spent 3 hours with a guy who went over every nut and bolt it seemed, we haggled for 45 mins and came to an agreement. I asked for some money and he said "I didn't bring any money" I will say that the language changed quickly to profanity and disgust. My only upside was sitting on my front porch drinking a beer watching him spend 30 mins trying to get his keys out of his truck. He knew better than to ask me for help at that point. 

[Bhigdog]

FUGETABOUTIT!.................Turn the lemon into lemonade. Take your lady out for a nice romantic dinner. Make sad puppy dog eyes as you console her. Show her your soft caring side. Hold her hand.  Stroke her cheek. The lost sale will be the last thing on her mind................At least until morning.................Bob 

[46 woodie]

I agree, let it go. Just ask yourself, do I really want to get involved with lawyer's and the legal system? The only thing that will come out of it when the dust settles is that a couple of lawyers will make some money.

[Rusty_OToole]

Happens all the time. At least he had the decency to call. No harm done, so forget it and move on.

[Xander Wildeisen]

When the dust settles, the Lawyer will have his $5,000, and the Lawyer will be driving your Studebaker.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Maybe behind that buyer's change of heart

was a reluctant wife--especially after she

learned the coming cost of restoration.

Remember, they are newcomers to the hobby.

You never know.

Edited August 24, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, keiser31 said:

I agree with the "let it go" advice and move on. All you are going to do is get stressed out and waste your time. If it's that rare, you should have no trouble at all selling it.

 

1.  I don't think there is any other prudent choice but the above.

 

2.  I don't believe the seller is out anything other than a little bit of time and 3 or 4 days of "lost opportunity".  Any more discussion is a waste of time.

 

3.  Morally, the buyer should never have sent the check if he was not going to follow through.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Thank you gentlemen, the consensus is as I expected. I am sure that this happens all the time and that's why she wanted me to ask. This is far from the worst that has happened to me in my many years in the hobby, but for her this is something new. Unfortunately when she runs out of patience, Ebay and the car becoming someone's street rod project may seem to be her only option.

 

Matt twelve cars in a month in a buyers market, WOW! You have found the formula that really works for you.

[George Smolinski]

Your/her first mistake was accepting a check as a form of payment. With me, it's cash only since that's how I buy stuff. If it's a long distance sale, then I will accept ONLY a Postal Money Order as a down payment, or Paypal plus a 3% handling fee for Paypal. The balance has to be paid BEFORE the car is picked up & that is either cash or Paypal + 3%.

It's a lot more difficult to stop payment on a sale that way.

[BearsFan315]

I am with the group... let it go, and like others said, until you have cash in hand the car is STILL for sale.

I would have kept it listed and entertained any offers. Cash Talks, and BS Walks. I always tell interested parties that it is NOT sold till cash is in my hand, and the title is in yours.

 

and it is NOT worth the hassle, time, money, or stress to try to make them go through with the deal. cost more in the end. if the car is in good condition and all it will sell to a good buyer.

[R Walling]

I sold a item once for about $500 and told the purchaser, cash on delivery, or a US postal money order only.

 

 He sent me a certified bank money order. I told him that I would not accept it but I would exchange it for cash when he picked up the item,  and never heard from him since.

 

 Anyone need some nice wallpaper?

Edited August 24, 2016 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[poci1957]

3 hours ago, BearsFan315 said:

I am with the group... let it go, and like others said, until you have cash in hand the car is STILL for sale.

and it is NOT worth the hassle, time, money, or stress to try to make them go through with the deal. cost more in the end. if the car is in good condition and all it will sell to a good buyer.

 

The above sums it up... just sell it to someone else and at least the guy called to explain and probably swallowed some embarrassment to do so.  Not worth fighting over, life is too short, Todd C 

[joe_padavano]

4 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

If it's a long distance sale, then I will accept ONLY a Postal Money Order as a down payment, or Paypal plus a 3% handling fee for Paypal.

FYI, PayPal's send money to family/friends option has no fee. I just used this for a car I'm buying.

[keiser31]

My last old car/truck selling experience: I had a 1928 Model A 1/2 ton turned flatbed. I sold it on Ebay. The "buyer" sent me a big deposit ($1,500.00). The buyer called me a couple of days later to cancel, but said to keep the deposit since he understood that I waited to receive it and may have lost other buyers. I did not really want to sell, anyway. A couple of months later, I had to come up with some cash and re-sold the Model A on Ebay. There ARE good folks out there who will not shaft you. I just figure if a deal goes bad, move on.

Edited August 24, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Exhaust]

I'm with the consensus here to just let it go.  I just went through the sales process for the first time with my deceased father's Model A and I had several "I'll take it!" followed a few days later by "My wife won't let me" or "I thought about it and I don't want it."  I returned the deposits and moved on.  In the end it sold to a Virginia collector who's already paid for it and will be picking it up in an hour or so.  Be patient and follow your gut.

 

The idea of a non-refundable deposit should weed out most, if not all, of the tire kickers and not-so-sures.

[Amphicar BUYER]

I sold a 1938 Mullins trailer on ePay a year or so ago. I started it out at $50 w/o reserve thinking it would sell itself at the appropriate level. Sadly I had but one bid.... even though the guy generously offered to pay me more upon pickup, I told him I was taught a "deal is a deal" and my word is golden so he got it for the $50 and I watched a $400+ loss drive away into the sunset. 

 

Sure I lost in that deal but I look back to other deals I have made stupid money on and I know karma (or car-ma?) comes into play so in the end I am way ahead and I know that this is why I have done $50k deals with a handshake. I have paid more for cars than they were asking on a couple of occasions. One car I paid her over 3x her asking and I sold it for 2x that and kept the spare parts and historical documents that I did not know came with it valued at about what I paid for the car and parts! Another guy I paid him twice his price only to find out that sale saved his family home from foreclosure and the profit I made covered some of my hospital bills from a head-on wreck I was in. That is good karma at work my friends.

 

MY word is my bond. Certainly rare these days, but I sleep well at night and I am 100% certain what goes around comes around. Sometime you just have to be patient for the come around part.

 

I live by my version of the 10 commandments..

#1 - Don't be a douche bag.

#2 - #10 -- See #1

[JACK M]

I think you should post a few pics of your lady's Studebaker.

Heck, you have all these sympathizers, it might just sell.

 

I agree with just about every comment here. A hand shake and always do what you say. (right, in a perfect world maybe)

I worked a deal with a guy once that was a couple of hundred miles away. We talked back and forth for several days.

I called him the evening before I was to make the trip and would be there around 9am. But when I showed up the next morning he was loading the car on some other guys trailer. Dang !!

Then I worked a deal with my next door neighbor of twenty years to buy his place but had to close on another deal (I had a guy pestering me to buy another place I owned and he had the cash) so would be about a month to get the dough.

We shook hands. I called him two weeks later when I had the money and he told me that he sold the place sight unseen to some guy form back east.

What?? I've been a next door neighbor to this guy for twenty years !! What a douche.

The new guy is an OK guy but I kind of have an attitude. I even offered up a pretty good profit on the place because I wanted this property. Of coarse he wants to keep the place. Hence the new garage, I guess that will have to do for the time being.

Not really lemonade, but what the heck.

[Xander Wildeisen]

A guy flew in to town to look at this Packard we had for sale. Decided to buy it. (not a cheap car) He flew back to CA and was going to send payment the next day. And the next day, THE VERY NEXT DAY, the stock market dropped 700+ points. And the next day dropped 900+ points, and the housing market crashed. The sale did not go through, took about a year after that to find a buyer. Buyers are not the only thing that sinks a sale. 

[George Smolinski]

8 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

FYI, PayPal's send money to family/friends option has no fee. I just used this for a car I'm buying.

Joe,

I knew about that, however, if Paypal finds out what you're doing, you'll be done with Paypal. They also may have grounds for legal action against you. What you are doing is committing fraud.

[mercer09]

9 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

FYI, PayPal's send money to family/friends option has no fee. I just used this for a car I'm buying.

Joe,

I knew about that, however, if Paypal finds out what you're doing, you'll be done with Paypal. They also may have grounds for legal action against you. What you are doing is committing fraud.

 

 

 

for starters, you have no insurance with paypal when you use friends and family-check it out.

also George, if you accept paypal and your buyer wants to back out, he will and paypal will reimburse him on the slightest dislike of what you sold. so paypal is no guarantee either................!

 

accept cash, think cash and live in a cash is king world!

 

one final thought, in most states a check offers the buyer 3 days to rescind a deal..................................

 Like this

[George Smolinski]

9 hours ago, mercer09 said:

Joe,

I knew about that, however, if Paypal finds out what you're doing, you'll be done with Paypal. They also may have grounds for legal action against you. What you are doing is committing fraud.

 

 

 

for starters, you have no insurance with paypal when you use friends and family-check it out.

also George, if you accept paypal and your buyer wants to back out, he will and paypal will reimburse him on the slightest dislike of what you sold. so paypal is no guarantee either................!

 

accept cash, think cash and live in a cash is king world!

 

one final thought, in most states a check offers the buyer 3 days to rescind a deal..................................

 Like this

•  

I agree with your statement. If you read my previous post, you'll see I said I use Paypal for a long distance transaction. I know how Paypal works. I've been a member since it's inception. Sometimes a cash deal won't work. The next best & safest for me is Paypal. If I'm buying a car 1000 or more miles away, I really don't want to use anything else & the reverse is true if I'm selling.

[60FlatTop]

The buyer is in complete control of the deal until the moment of delivery.  Just move on and sell it to the next person.

 

I have refunded deposits and even taken cars back with a full refund. I knew another buyer was being born at the time we made the deal, P. T. told me.

 

Your real problem is the money/woman mix. Women are ruthless about money deals where a man will let things go. Anyone with a business knows you put a woman in charge of accounts receivable. They are vicious and will slap a lean at the drop of a hat.

 

AND they don't wear rose colored glasses (do they make black and white glasses?). I sold a major project car last week. The first guy said he was going to bring his wife. I told him to stay home and recommended a little restaurant close to where he lived. Don't come here, take here there and have fun. They came. They left. 45 minutes later a guy came and bought it. The first guy called the next morning. I can only imagine what he did for permission.

 

There you have it. Buyers need to be screened just like sellers and sale items. Just like seeing "my mechanic" on the forum, "My restorer" is another red flag.

 

Of course there's lots of crazy money in New York. Who'd have thought?

Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

40 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I have refunded deposits and even taken cars back with a full refund....

 

Good point.

A friend of mine sold a Studebaker GT Hawk at the 

Hershey car corral.  It was a well done, fully restored car.

For some reason, the buyer came back to him, so he

refunded the buyer's money and took the car back.

He sold the car for MORE later at the same car corral!

 

Maybe this will happen to the original poster's 1946 business coupe,

and he won't lose anything, but actually gain---

Edited August 25, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[mercer09]

well said Bernie.

 

when they say, I have to ask the wife, I always hang up the phone and move on........................................!

[Bhigdog]

Not everyone is a douche bag. After my father died I advertised his (barn find) 54 Studebaker for sale. A guy called and after we talked he said he would take it at my price and asked if I would  hold it until 6 that evening since that was the earliest he could get there. I agreed. Before he arrived another guy showed up and offered much more than what I was asking. He actually got in my face when I refused to sell before 6 o'clock. The original buyer did show up and took the car. Fair is fair.

Fast forward 10 years. I found out that my neighbor's 50 acres a joining  my property was for sale and a developer was considering it. I talked to my neighbor and within an hour we shook hands on a verbal agreement. I found out that the developer later visited him with the intention to negotiate a price and my neighbor told him there was nothing to discuss because he had shook hands with me and I had his word. We closed on the sale 30 days later. Fair is fair.

 

Karma? I very much believe in it..............Bob

[Curti]

 

Karma? I very much believe in it..............Bob

 

You bet, what goes around comes around !

[Matt Harwood]

14 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Not everyone is a douche bag. After my father died I advertised his (barn find) 54 Studebaker for sale. A guy called and after we talked he said he would take it at my price and asked if I would  hold it until 6 that evening since that was the earliest he could get there. I agreed. Before he arrived another guy showed up and offered much more than what I was asking. He actually got in my face when I refused to sell before 6 o'clock. The original buyer did show up and took the car. Fair is fair.

Fast forward 10 years. I found out that my neighbor's 50 acres a joining  my property was for sale and a developer was considering it. I talked to my neighbor and within an hour we shook hands on a verbal agreement. I found out that the developer later visited him with the intention to negotiate a price and my neighbor told him there was nothing to discuss because he had shook hands with me and I had his word. We closed on the sale 30 days later. Fair is fair.

 

Karma? I very much believe in it..............Bob

 

I run into this situation once in a while. I joke by saying that the best way to sell a car is to sell it to someone else first. The minute I take a deposit, it seems that two other guys call and say they'll take the car. It most often happens with cars that have been sitting for months and months with no interest, then three guys decide on the same day that they want it. Without a deposit, the car is up for grabs and I tell them that there are other interested parties (which they always believe is a sales tactic). First guy to put money on the table gets the car. It's really surprising just how often this happens, maybe three or four times a year.

Sometimes I have a desirable car and multiple buyers fight over it. I always honor the first deal I make, even if there would be more money in it to sell it to guy #2. If you put your money up, the car is yours. Just don't be a weenie and call later to tell me your wife won't let you have it or your stock portfolio took a dump that day or it won't fit in your garage (it will, you just don't want it to). Do your soul-searching before you commit, not after.

 

This is why deposits are often non-refundable. If I just turned away one or two other guys because of you, then there's a cost associated with that. Fair is fair, right?

[R Walling]

I used to have a car lot and one day I was showing a car to a person and a second person showed up that had been there the day before.

 I politely continued to show the car, and when the conversation slowed, and the guy was hemming and hawing, I excused myself to talk to the other guy.

 

 I then returned to the buyer and asked him if he was going to buy it, if not the other guy wants to but it right now.

 

 This really pi$$ed him off, but I did give him first option.

[60FlatTop]

My Grandfather had a used car lot and tire shop where my Dad worked part time a couple of evenings and Saturdays. When I turned 11 my Father bought me down on Saturdays to mow the lawn for my Grandmother. It didn't take long before I was filling in the rest of the day painting the tread on regrooved tires, trimming run flats, sorting casings, and dabbling in the cars. At 13 I was working for $1.00 per hour plus 10% of my sales. Then the deal changed. Margins on the cars were tight and I was reduced to 5% on the car sales.

At 13 I was selling cars to adults and was pretty good at recognizing the six basic personalities of mankind. Selling cars is a sport to some. I still look at as such. I never cared for football, baseball, any of that stuff, but I like grooming a sale. I watched the guys at the dealer auctions during my early teens and some the over serious ones and the sporting ones. I remember buying an auction car at around 16. A friend came up and said he didn't bid because he knew I liked those cars. I told him if he needed it give me $2 for my lunch and pay the auctioneer.

I have sold cars for over 10 times what I paid. And I have given away more cars than some people have owned. But it has always been a fun sport an I feel good about the deals.

 

My Grandfather had a firm policy of never taking a man's last dollar. I agree. He was always quite liberal about policy on all the dollars leading up to that last one. Me too. When I'm out with the big kids I use terms I can't write here about the "sport".

 

I have a favorite movie that was made in the 1990's. I love it and laugh every time I see it. You can Google it and find clips. It is called Suckers. An old HS friend says the sales manager reminds him of me.

 

I'll know who you are from 30 feet. And treat you accordingly. Probably better.

Bernie

Edited August 26, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This is why deposits are often non-refundable. If I just turned away one or two other guys because of you, then there's a cost associated with that. Fair is fair, right?

I understand that, legally, a deposit is refundable if it goes to court.

All my incremental receipts are written as "partial payment".

B

[benjamin j]

I had to laugh at this topic because it sounds exactly like something my wife would do. She would keep bugging me and saying you need to do something about this guy as if I really care to get involved with her bad car deal. I can’t stand going car shopping with her either because she come up with crazy ideas about how the new cars should be sold.  Good luck.

[60FlatTop]

So this guy, let's call him William, jumps on a car he wants, dashes off a check, and then admits to Mrs. William, just call her H, what he did. She has a fit, but later that night she says "William, if you turn off the light and get under these covers you can have the car." Oh, no,I 'm gonna lie; and he makes up the story about the restoration shop.

Well, he doesn't have the same abysmal feeling in his stomach as the guy who called me in the morning and found out the car was sold.

 

Life is not always easy among the over 60 car guys.

Bernie

Edited August 26, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 8/25/2016 at 4:01 PM, mercer09 said:

when they say, I have to ask the wife, I always hang up the phone and move on!

 

Sometimes with new cars, it's the other way around.

Women shopping for a car would say "I have to check with my husband."

So some salesmen didn't treat female customers with respect unless

they came with their husbands--and the salesmen earned a bad reputation because of it.

 

Interesting how it works both ways!

Edited August 27, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)