car pricing

[Joe in Canada]

I am taking my time looking for a pre 1916 project and finding a few cars that were taken apart like thirty years ago. Some have even changed owners one or two times and still in pieces with some restoration done . As time goes by I know parts can get lost being moved around or accidently thrown out. So my question is how do you price a basket case now a days. I would think that an assembled unrestored car needing a restoration would have a much higher value than one in boxes. But I am finding the prices seem to be equal in the two stages. Any thoughts on how to judge a basket case??? Anyone have a past experience in a basket case??

Edited June 6, 2016 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[PFindlay]

I think it will be pretty hard to come up with a blanket statement regarding basket case pricing.  Probably the value is whatever someone will pay for it.  All kinds of factors come into play including rarity, desirability, potential cost of restoration and final value of the restored car.  You'll need to have some idea of how much you're willing to put into the car to get it into the kind of shape you want.  This is also a factor with assembled cars, so maybe the difference between the two is not that great.

 

You may be wise to stick with the more common makes so that you can find parts and a network of owners.  Model T is an obvious choice.   I have a 1911 Cadillac and they're actually relatively common.  I have found some parts when I needed them.  Buicks are also fairly common.   Or, if you are so inclined, you may need to consider making some of your own parts.

 

So, to get back to the question ... for a particular basket case, I would try to get a sense of the restored value of the car and work backwards from there.  How much would it cost me (time and money) to get to that stage?  How much of the car is actually there now? 

 

My experience with a basket case was my 1913 Henderson motorcycle.  I bought it in 1989 and knew it was only about 60% complete.  I was able to connect with several other owners and three of us shared parts and fabrication costs.  Twenty-five years later (after raising a family and paying off the house) I was finally able to complete it and by that time there was a company making reproduction parts for it.  Almost any part is now available.

 

My final thoughts ... an assembled car is much easier to assess and also to re-assemble as the work is done.   If the prices are similar, you may want to look at assembled cars.

 

Peter, also in Canada

[R Walling]

 I had just purchased a 56 Chevy convertible in Dec, 2015. It was a basket case and I thought that it had most of the parts that were in good shape. I now have almost $20,000 in new parts that were either missing or in poor shape.

 

 Luckley, the car is worth investing the money in, or I would have lost my shirt.

 

 In my case, I was able to purchase every part that was missing, I wouldn't even think of doing that with a 1916 auto.

[John_S_in_Penna]

21 hours ago, PFindlay said:

My final thoughts ... an assembled car is much easier to assess and also to re-assemble as the work is done.   If the prices are similar, you may want to look at assembled cars.

Peter, also in Canada

 

I think that's excellent advice!

People may ASK the same for an apart-in-pieces car,

but if you consider all the extra time you'll have in

figuring out the jigsaw puzzle, you'll see that a car

that's all together should be worth more than a puzzle.

Edited June 7, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

There is a good chance the person you buy the car from will not be the one who took it apart. They will most likely attach a dream price compared to an unrealistic restoration cost, unrealistically low restoration cost. They are pretty close to the "make me an offer" misinformed.

 

When I do, rarely, try to negotiate with these people it is a discussion sitting on the back step with a tone of empathy for their predicament. Questions like "How did you arrive at this price?" "Have many people looked?" "Have you turned down any offers?" asked in a nurturing, coaching manner help. Don't forget, you are talking about relieving a burden with only an intangible value (unless you are buying by the pound).

 

My best results have been to ask "If you had some extra cash right now, what big ticket item would you like to buy?" If their house needs a $4,000 roof say "I'll buy that for you." I knew one guy with a brick house who needed three new wood windows. Target the value.

The first time I realized this concept was in 1984 when I responded to a Hemmings ad for a 1935 Nash at $3500. The owner was a computer VAX operator who really wanted a 30 meg hard drive for his Apple system but his wife needed a washer and drier. The $1700 I paid got both and I think they had an extra 50 bucks to go out for dinner on. (Remember how much a 30 meg drive cost back then. My office had a whole row of 1 meg Berouli Boxes I was proud of.)

 

The point is, there isn't much value and it is only subjective. Just be careful, in the moment, I once offered an owner a price for his Cadillac and spent a 90 mile ride home praying he wouldn't accept it. 

Bernie

[trimacar]

I'd vote for the assembled, unrestored, car also.  I always get a kick out of ads for cars for sale that state "hard work done, I've taken it apart for you"....HA!  That's the easy part.  You can take apart in one day what it takes a few years to put back together.

 

The only basket case you should consider would be an unusual or rare car, that you specifically went looking for in the first place.  Then you might be able to afford to put the money into it fabricating or finding pieces....

[Restorer32]

On the other hand, if you know a particular model car, and I mean really know that car inside and out, or have a friend who does, a disassembled example can be a real bargain.

[JACK M]

The ideas that Flattop suggests make sense.

I would also make sure that the wife is listening.

As also suggested the project can be viewed as a Huge burden that most should give away but wont.

[Restorer32]

I was once involved in a jury trial as an expert witness for another restoration shop. I tried to convince the jury that a disassembled car was closer to being a finished restoration than a car that had not been disassembled. While I was correct technically, the jury apparently didn't buy it since the shop lost the case.

[JV Puleo]

I am currently doing such a project... a 1910 car that was someone's unfinished project. There are parts missing, which I knew in advance. The salient factor for me was that I wanted a fairly large car and my means have always been limited, what was once called "a champagne taste and a beer budget."  But, I have the equipment, time and skills to make most of what wasn't there. The deciding factor was "are all the major castings intact and usable"? Obviously, a complete car is preferable. In my case, I made an offer that was substantially less than the asking price and the seller was realistic enough to know that the pool of people wishing to undertake such a project is very limited. I still paid too much... but that is the cost of entry. When its done, it'll never be a money maker but that is the last thing on my mind... I simply don't care if, after I'm gone, it sells for less than I had in it. I pretty much agree with Restorer 32... I don't think the car's disassembled state has been a serious drawback but I've been around early cars for a long time and don't have to rely too much on outside expertise. Disassembled may not effect asking prices but I'll bet it effects the ability to sell them.

Edited June 6, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

The amount of knowledge acquired by disassembling a car is immense.

[alsancle]

The scariest part of any restoration is when the car is fully dissembled because it has reached its bottom as far as value is concerned.  Unless it is something that is spectacular or super desirable I would avoid a basket case like the plague.

[Luv2Wrench]

I'll add that you need to know the car.  I bought a basket case that was 'all there' but it wasn't even close to being all there. I didn't know that at the time.  I figured it was probably missing a few things.  The problem was that the things it was missing were the things that everyone else that owned the 'collection' couldn't find.  Basically I bought a project that had reached a point where it kinda looked complete but couldn't really be moved forward without fabricating long lost parts.

I'll also double down on 39BuickEight's post that the amount of knowledge acquired disassembling the car is immense.  Otherwise it get close to being like assembling a jig-saw puzzle without the box cover showing the finished results...

 

Just realized I never answered your question:

 

I value a basket case way below an assembled car.  While it might be an exaggeration I'd say that 99 times out of 100 there's a really good reason that the car isn't assembled and it almost always isn't the innocent reason that is given.  In other words, the car isn't assembled because it is missing critical pieces... otherwise it would be assembled and the asking price would be even higher.  The reasons given for being a basket case my well be true... but the silent reason is that everything isn't really there.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Here's a little secret about me. Cars are discretionary things in my life, bought and maintained with extra money outside family requirements. I could walk away from any of the cars with no money and be happy with the total experience. I have given quite a few cars away to people who needed or wanted them; and the same has happened to me when I was a kid. Just be a little careful if you are a man giving a car to a woman...

 

So, when I put a price on a car it is objective and based on what the car will do; steer, start, and stop for basics. The price may be high because I value those attributes. However, when the sale is in progress I am in tune with the buyer and understand that they set the final price. If I get two serious offers that are close yet under my asking price, the car goes to the person who made the second offer. I only think I know what they will spend, they know.

 

Now you have a bargaining edge. If you see I have a car for sale send a friend first. I'll be waiting for you.

    I always ask the salesman or the buyer if they can play pool. When they answer no, I take the first shot.  Bernie

[nickelroadster]

A taken apart car with the (parts all there) is something that is advertised a lot but is usually quite rare.  Unless you are familiar with the model and check the parts closely it is probably going to take twice as long to put it back together then if you had disassembled it in the first place.  ARE the parts organized and labeled?  Be prepared to walk away unless you get a substantial discount.  The person selling the car may even think that the parts are all there.  Many pitfalls here.  

[danleblanc]

I'm in a similar situation with my 53 Fleetwood. I bought a complete 53 Series 62 sedan but after a lot of digging, found it was too rusty to repair (frame was good but body was bad in key structural areas).  I started looking for a solid body and found quite a few but the sellers were asking finished car prices for projects.

 

One day, I got a call from a restoration shop and they had a solid 53 Fleetwood that their client bought mainly to have the correct bolts and to disassemble to figure out how to put his 53 Eldorado back together and for a few parts. They put me in touch with their client and he said give me $800 for it so I can clear the yard before the snow flies. He paid  $3800 for the car plus shipping from Colorado the year before (that's a lot of money to have correct bolts)  

 

All the Fleetwood specific items were there and what wasn't I had on my series 62. It worked out well for both of us. He cleared his yard and I got a solid more desirable 53 Cadillac. I paid parts car money for it and project car money for my parts car and have to disassemble the Series 62 to figure out how the Fleetwood goes back together.

 

To date, I have found only one pinhole the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen on the entire car. Even the parking brake still works.  

 

If I didn't have the other 53 for reference, I would not have considered the car. 

 

Bottom line, be sure to have a good reference to reassemble a car in boxes otherwise start with a complete car. 

[JV Puleo]

The original poster specifically asked about a pre-1916 project car. These are not anywhere near as common as 50s Cadillacs or even 20s and 30s cars. The problems they present are often quite different. Unless you choose something extremely common, like a Model T, finding major missing parts (like a crankcase or jugs) is likely to be very difficult to impossible. At the same time, there are no plastic parts, pot-metal castings or elaborate stamped (and rusty) body parts. Almost nothing is welded. The challenges are much more mechanical. They also aren't anywhere near as complicated as a late 30s car, much less one from the 50s and many, probably most, used generic parts supplied in the trade. I've no idea what the OPs budget is, nor is it any of my business, but I would urge him to talk to a few people who have done such a job on an EARLY car. Sometimes, and this was the case for me, a dismantled, failed project is the only way forward and it does not serve our hobby to completely discourage undertaking such. I'd say that, if you have to go out for machine work, any early car could very quickly become a real burden unless it is in remarkably good condition and there simply aren't many excellent condition un-restored brass cars left at any price. About half the original parts that came with my car were worn beyond any realistic hope of saving them...

[danleblanc]

The point I was trying to make was that if you don't have a good reference to put it all back together, it's all a shot in the dark as to how it gets reassembled.  Furthermore, unless you know exactly what parts go into the building of the car, evaluating whether or not the car is complete is an insurmountable task when it's all in boxes, but much simpler when the car is assembled.  Doesn't matter if it's a "common" 1950's Cadillac or a brass era car.

 

BTW, when was the last time you tried to find a set of interior door pull handles for a 1953 Fleetwood - the ones you slide back to open the door?  I've been looking for months to no avail (I have all four, but two are missing the plastic).  What is viewed as "common" 1950's isn't as common as one may think.  The search can be just as frustrating for pre-1916 as it is for some obscure 1950's part, so don't discount the car and the rarity of it's parts based on era.

[JV Puleo]

Ah... but that is my point. A brass car won't have something "with the plastic missing". I'm not underestimating the difficulty of finding more modern parts, especially when they were made of perishable materials and go bad just sitting in a box. Nor am I saying that it's not easier to have the original car to dismantle... just that in the brass era many of the junk materials that eventually became part of automotive engineering simply didn't exist and that the cars themselves are fundamentally a machine. If you understand how a car works, it is possible, if not always easy, to reassemble one. I've done both types of jobs with brass cars and once reassembled a Silver Ghost RR from two trailer loads of parts. The complete car I disassembled and reassembled was, perhaps, a bit easier but it still had a host of worn out parts that had to be replaced if you wanted anything more than a trailer queen. Its also been my experience that many early cars incorporated parts that were not very good to begin with... wheel bearings come to mind. Whether you take it apart or not, you'll likely still have to figure out how to fit modern ones because the old "bicycle" bearings with loose balls simply didn't survive well and NOS replacements are effectively out of the question. That said, it can be done but it is a different set of problems from finding replacement parts for later cars. I strongly suspect that a lot of these projects get abandoned because someone dismantles the car and finds out that, even if he has all the parts, there are still major problems that can be insurmountable if you aren't equipped to deal with them, either mechanically or financially.

Edited June 7, 2016 by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

10% of the price of a fully restored car and that's only if you will be doing almost all of the work yourself...................Bob

[Luv2Wrench]

8 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

 I strongly suspect that a lot of these projects get abandoned because someone dismantles the car and finds out that, even if he has all the parts, there are still major problems that can be insurmountable if you aren't equipped to deal with them, either mechanically or financially.

 

This is the problem that gets you.  If you're like JV Puleo you just fabricate the parts from scratch.  If you're not, you box it all back up and try to sell it for what you can.   Fabricating parts, having castings made, etc, etc, works a good bit better on Brass Era cars for all the reasons mentioned above. 

[Rusty_OToole]

Parts car. Should sell for low end of parts car price.

[1912Staver]

I second everything JV Puleo and PFindlay has said. All the other postings are very good advice for everything other than a brass era car. Brass cars are a completely different animal from everything else. All the generalisations from the hobby car field go out the window, and exponentially so as a brass car gets higher in horsepower. An original ;unrestored , and even fairly poor condition 40 H.P. and up brass car is often $100,000.00 and up. If you want one and you aren't one of the 1% a basket case is often the only realistic option. Just don't expect it to be easy. Only 15 years into such a project myself, still a long way to go and a lot of money to spend. But it is the only game in town I can afford a ticket to.

Greg in Canada

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[smithbrother]

I personally wouldn't run from a basket case, IF it was a car I really really wanted, and the seller would put in writing what parts are missing. Couple that to the fact that HE must be the one who took it apart.   I am like many others on this site, I have the ability to do most of the work myself, hiring it would be a serious mistake, IMO.

 

Only 'YOU' can decide when to BUY, and when to RUN.

 

Dale in Indy

[JV Puleo]

And what happens if the seller doesn't know what's missing? My current car came more or less "assembled" although it was more like "thrown together to sell it". When I dismantled it, I found that the drive shaft (inside a torque tube) and one of the rear axles was missing. To my mind, it was a "so what?" situation. I expected that and anyone who undertakes a brass-car restoration, even if the car is "complete," that doesn't expect things like that is being hopelessly naive and setting themselves up for a serious disappointment. Once in a while, many car enthusiasts will have to figure out how something is made... because they can't find one. With brass cars, this is an every day event. You have to accept the fact that many parts simply can't be found because they don't exist or, if they do, they are as bad or worse than the ones you have or they are part of the only other example of your "190x whatever."

 

1912Staver is 100% correct. Brass cars, especially the larger ones, are an entirely different kettle of fish from even the most exotic Classic of the 20s and 30s — much less later cars. (More often than not, a fancy body on a bog standard, if expensive, chassis...) The days when you could get a brass "parts car" are long gone. The cars that are being rebuilt now were the parts cars... after they were stripped of the useful parts. As tough as that sounds, I'm not convinced that many "restored" cars are all that restored. Many were well preserved examples that were painted, upholstered and put back into use 40 or 50 years ago. No matter how good they were then, they are twice as old now and there are many mechanical parts that either are worn out or will be soon... perhaps that's why tours include a breakdown service. The whole emphasis in American collecting, from the beginning, has been cosmetic more than mechanical so I'm not at all convinced that, even if you bought a supposedly "restored" car, it would be mechanically sound. I've worked on a few of these... lovely to look at, but I really wouldn't trust them to go 100 miles without something coming loose.

 

With all that, I've found other brass car guys, the ones that do try to do these projects, to be nearly always helpful and happy to exchange information, ideas and, often enough parts. I'm making a set of timing gears for another collector who, in turn, is making me a cam shaft. That sort of cooperation is quite common. There are some turds out there... there are in everything, but so far my experience has been 99% positive.

 

edit: The above reference to the cam shaft and timing gears is a good example of what I (and 1912 Staver and Luvs2Wrench) are talking about. I have 2 cam shafts, and 2 sets of timing gears and most of the other parts, nearly all of which are worn beyond any practical hope of recovery. By the time I'm done, I will have made the entire valve train, including the valve cages. I don't think many folks restoring a 30s, 40s or 50s car are likely to be faced with such a problem and my only purpose here is to warn the OP that, if he'd like do do a brass car, he is likely to face similar situations regardless of whether he buys the car complete and running or in a pile of boxes. Personally, I'll welcome anyone interested in this sort of work to the club and do what I can to help.

Edited June 10, 2016 by JV Puleo
an additional thought... (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

On 6/6/2016 at 4:12 PM, alsancle said:

The scariest part of any restoration is when the car is fully dissembled because it has reached its bottom as far as value is concerned.  Unless it is something that is spectacular or super desirable I would avoid a basket case like the plague.

The first thing they do is totally disassemble it, and then stop working on it.  Once disassembled, you can't even quit and get it back.

 

[padgett]

I learned the hard way to never disassemble until the parts to put back together are on hand & if not very expensive buy two sets, one to use and one for the next time.

[JACK M]

22 hours ago, padgett said:

I learned the hard way to never disassemble until the parts to put back together are on hand & if not very expensive buy two sets, one to use and one for the next time.

 

I am kind of the opposite, for repairs anyway.

I usually don't know what it needs until I can take a look.

[padgett]

Whatever works for you but I generally have a pretty good idea what will be needed before I start & tend to stock normal spares like plugs, belts, hoses, water pumps, and gasket sets. Of course it helps to have several cars with the same drivetrain.

 

For instance the newbie with the LQ1 seems to have a vacuum leak at the intake manifold. Gasket set was like $7 so I ordered two - one for now and one for when it may not be available for $7.