ron hausmann Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 All,Thought that I would post a few pictures of a 1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster which I have "found" and will purchase and restore. I say "found" loosely, because this car has been known about by the 150 or so of us Kissel owners, but it has been sitting in a shed since, no kidding, 1954 when it was purchased by the then current owner. After years of discussion, he is selling it to me with the promise that I will restore this car to its former glory. I will. It is one of now 4 complete 1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedsters. It's the real-deal, with suicide seats, big Kissel 6-45 engine, Buffalo Number 5 wheels, and beautiful undented body parts. I already own the Ruger 6-45 Gold Bug, pictured, and there is one at the Fourney Museum in Denver (Amelia Erhart's) and one in Virginia (?) that won National AACA award last year. This new find has the correct "porthole" top. I have a spare 6-45 engine and any other parts necessary, as I purchased a 6-45 Speedster parts car which had burnt several years ago. Thos parts will now come in ver handy.I need to finish my 1918 Kissel Model 6-38 Sedanette restoration to get on with this beauty!Thanks, Ron Hausmann P.E. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Congratulations on a great find, Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Good to see more and more Kissels being restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Oh, and Ron, when we did the Gold bug we restored we had a batch of hubcap center medallions made. We only needed 5, we keep a couple here just as curiosities and we donated the rest of the 75 to the Hartford Heritage Museum. I assume they would still have quite a few. We had them made in Taiwan and they turned out great. Nickle plated with the black background silk screened in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 An amazing find. I'm glad that the gentleman decided to sell it so that it will get restored. I've seen too many like this (no Kissels though) that have sat for so many years, and the heirs just send them for scrap.Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motoringicons Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Congratulations. A great find indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 There are several Gold Bugs claiming to be Amelia Erhart's car. She called hers the "Yellow Peril" but apparently drove it cross country at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Ron,Congratulations - good to know that this 1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster is in a proper home, and will be properly restored and appreciated.Marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 There are several Gold Bugs claiming to be Amelia Erhart's car. She called hers the "Yellow Peril" but apparently drove it cross country at least once.Restorer,Haven't heard that but certainly possible. I do know that the Fourney Museum car, which is publicized to have been Erhardt's, is definately the wreck that was pictured in the Kissel archives before restoration by Fourney. I don't know how the wreck was tied to Erhardt. Coincidentally, I am going to Fourney museum this week and will try to get some provenance. Erhardt's Kissel Gold Bug is shown in one extant photograph and appears to definately be a 1923 Kissel 6-45, not a 1922 nor a 1924.Also, this barn find has the original "Deluxe" Speedster trimmings for 1923, while mine has the "Hollywood Option" package, which is different and more "pimped out", and gregarious.Thanks, RON HAUSMANN P.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 All,Just FYI, yes if you look close, the front axle on the barn find Kissel is wrong. so are the front wheels. They were replaced in the 1950's with a huge Cadillac axle, with Buffalo number 6 wheel and they mounted a V-8 in her. However, they had thankfully saved the original Kissel front axle complete with the Buffalo #5 hubs, wheels, and caps which I have with the car. Also, I am in the middle of restoring a 1918 Kissel Model 6-38 Sedanette, the only one that survives, from two cars, and have learned that very, very many Kissel Model 6-38 parts and Model 6-45 parts interchange. The planets seem to have lined up correctly for a change.Thanks, Ron Hausmann P.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 All of our leftover Kissel bits went to Joe Leaf out in Washington state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg H. Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 The "Amelia Earhart' car from the Fourney Museum taken this past August. I thought the mannequin was a bit creepy, but a really nice car. I don't know much about them, but I really like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Ron you are a lucky man. Most of us can only dream of a opportunity like this. You must have a special relationship with the Stars and Planets. I know you have promised the previous owner a full restoration but it almost looks good enough for a "preservation" You already have one restored Gold Bug , as a pair they would make a great study in the different approaches to vintage car conservation. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Thanks Greg. The pictures don't show alot of work that will need to be done to make this a show-winner, maybe a national winner. I plan on having it painted all yellow, except for the top and grey tires, like the Gold Bug on the cover of the Val Quant book. Many early Kissel Gold Bugs did have all yellow frames and fenders. Yes trouble to keep clean, but certainly striking!RON HAUSMANN P.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Sweet! Glad to see it is going to a good custodian. Our paths crossed last year as I visited the Eyes on Design show at the Edsel, and Eleanor, Ford estate. I was there this year with the Chartreuse Lady. Good times. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Thanks Dandy. We won first place there with our Kissel Gold Bug!Ron Hausmann P.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Simmons Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Ron, I am a practically no nothing about Kissels, so please excuse my ignorance in asking if these cars had paint codes from the factory? The color of the one in the pictures looks to be a blue or possibly a gray. If you restore it to original wouldn't that color be what should be on the car as original? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Mark,Kissels were "made to order" cars which also had a number of "standard" colors. You could order whatever you wanted, or just go with their standards. Most, but not all of the early Kissel Gold Bug speedsters were painted yellow - that is actually how they became commonly known as "gold" bugs. But many were painted tan, Holland blue, and even a deep red. I suspect that the "barn find" Kissel Gold Bug was a custom blueish gray color, as that seems to be the prevailing color after "rust'. The most common colors for Kissel Sedans, Roadsters, Speedsters, and their entire line from 1919 onwards were Holland Blue, Red, Yellow, Tan, and off-white. but you can find many other colors used. also, sometimes the fenders were black, sometimes notThanks, Ron Hausmann P.E> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Great find, congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Ron, weren't the original wheels Houk #5 rather than Buffalo or am I disremembering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Or are Buffalo and Houk two names for the same wheels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 Restorer,I really don't know the difference between the two. they are the same size.RON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I noticed that the Houk factory was located in Buffalo so I'm guessing they are one and the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisselman27 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Ron, Congratulations on a super find. The car looks to be in very original condition and almost too good to restore. All Kissel speedsters were deluxe models up until 1925 when the Standard speedster was offered as an option in both 6 and 8 Cylinder models.The B5 Buffalo wheels on the front of this speedster were used by Kissel on some of their 1927 Deluxe models cars with Timkin axles. The Buffalo wheels used from 1923 through 1926 were what I call the Jelly mould style and these were introduced with the new 1923 Model 6-55. The 1923 Model 6-45 models continued to use the HOUK style wheels until the end of production. In 1928 Kissel changed from Buffalo to Dayton wire wheels which continued through to the end of production in 1931. I look forward to reading the progress reports on the restoration.CheersJohn L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 Hey John,Good to hear from you in Australia. When are you going to be stateside again?If you know, what is the difference besides name, in Buffalo #5 wheels and Houk #5 wheels. Also, never heard of a B5 Buffalo. Educate us whenever you have a chance please. Also, this car is missing the steering column, with the triangular mounting bracket used on them. I have a spare column and steering gear, but not the control tubes within the shaft, nor the mounting bracket pieces, which would be nickel. Do you know where one might find one? Do you know what other cars may have used this settup?Take Care, RON HAUSMANN P.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Ron, I believe we shipped a steering column from a '21 6-45 to Joe Leaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 On 11/3/2014 at 7:42 AM, ron hausmann said: All, Thought that I would post a few pictures of a 1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster which I have "found" and will purchase and restore. I say "found" loosely, because this car has been known about by the 150 or so of us Kissel owners, but it has been sitting in a shed since, no kidding, 1954 when it was purchased by the then current owner. After years of discussion, he is selling it to me with the promise that I will restore this car to its former glory. I will. It is one of now 4 complete 1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedsters. It's the real-deal, with suicide seats, big Kissel 6-45 engine, Buffalo Number 5 wheels, and beautiful undented body parts. I already own the Ruger 6-45 Gold Bug, pictured, and there is one at the Fourney Museum in Denver (Amelia Erhart's) and one in Virginia (?) that won National AACA award last year. This new find has the correct "porthole" top. I have a spare 6-45 engine and any other parts necessary, as I purchased a 6-45 Speedster parts car which had burnt several years ago. Thos parts will now come in ver handy. I need to finish my 1918 Kissel Model 6-38 Sedanette restoration to get on with this beauty! Thanks, Ron Hausmann P.E. Ron, Any updates on this? Has it been pushed to the back while you work on finishing your other projects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 Al - this Gold Bug restoration was pushed back. However, I was VERY fortunate a couple weeks ago to locate a previously unlisted Kissel 6-45 parts car in California. I bought it and now I have a complete correct Kissel 6-45 engine AND complete, un-cut chassis for the unrestored Gold Bug . Kissel 6-45 frames are longer and 6-45 engines are bigger, and the 6-45’s have the rare suicide seats. In my opinion, these are the best of the Kissel made sixes. Below are pictures of the Gold Bug with its incorrect front axle and cut frame, and also the just acquired Kissel 6-45 parts car. Between the two, I now have 100.000% of the parts to do a perfect restoration of this Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster. I’ll do that after I finish my current restoration, the 1918 Kissel Model 6-38 Army Truck. It’s discussed under the Restorations forum. thanks, Ron Hausmann P.E. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 Kissel 6-45 engine. Rare as hens teeth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsmoke Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Great thread, first time I have noticed it, always enjoy topics on very specialized cars most of us will never see, let alone own. Too bad it typically takes 10-20 years to complete one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Hi Ron, I am curious on how the frame on the unrestored Gold Bug was cut ? Perhaps not good enough for a concours restoration like you specialise in but still salvageable ? I know it's not your point of view but roughish "preserved" cars are of significant interest to many. Just look at the case of the " Chasing Classic Cars " Stutz Bearcat. I think many people can relate more to a cleaned up ; made drivable, example of very desirable vintage cars than 98 point restorations. The condition you found the Gold bug in is also part of its history. You have almost enough parts for two cars, someone should have that in mind rather than one really nice car plus an even bigger stack of Kissel parts on your already overflowing shelving. Have you noticed the pre war parts supply thread. In the long run many loose parts collection end up getting scrapped. Greg in Canada 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 Thanks Greg, At some point before the Gold Bug was parked in its shed in 1956, (where I found it a few years ago) some idiot had split the front frame crossmember and welded a different front bar onto the frame, and widened the front of the frame, in order to put a V8 in it. And they disassembled the body. They put a bigger Cadillac front axle on with buffalo #6 front wheels on it. You can see this in the pictures. They never finished their Frankenstein. Although they saved the correct front axle and hubs, the frame was butchered. You could not use it to make a drive around car. As to the touring parts car, it has no wood. I do have an earlier Kissel 6-45 frame which is not suitable for a Gold Bug, and spare 6-45 engine block and parts so it could be restored with a hell of a lot of work. But it actually is a “Standard Touring” body style, which was Kissels cheapest one. I may just leave the rest of the Kissel Touring parts for a future decision. But using the frame and engine to complete a 100% complete iconic Kissel Gold Bug is for certain. Thanks, Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Too bad they were so ham fisted with the engine conversion. I agree that getting that sorted out has to be number 1. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I would certainly agree that this is not a preservation quality car. While it may be a "part of the car's history"? For so many cars, so is the crusher. There simply is not enough of this car still in decent original shape to judge the car as a true survivor. While I have always been in favor of preserving nice originals, and have long been disappointed by people restoring cars that SHOULD have been preserved and NOT restored, I have also always believed that once some faint line has been crossed, a car should be restored. It would require so much work to make this car appear to be a survivor that it in reality would not be one. Something I rarely actually say, because I really do not want to offend certain people? (Hopefully they won't see this here?) But I have never really been impressed by fake put-together "original" or "survivor" cars. (There is one exception. A friend that has restored several wonderful cars over the years, as he is getting older, found that he really enjoys taking the piles of parts he has and taking pieces that are bad enough that nobody would consider using them for a good restoration to put together a driver car that looks rusty. He truly enjoys doing it, and he is very open and honest about what the finished rust bucket is and is not! And enjoying it is what it is all about, a good thing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) I would have to see Ron's car in person before I reached any definite conclusion. It's quite possibly the only Gold Bug left that is not either a pile of parts , semi complete , basket case or a fully restored car. Are you familiar with the chasing classic cars Stutz ? If it was any better than Ron's car I have a feeling it wasn't by much. Not all survivors need to be 40,000 original mile , original paint, near mint, garage kept since day 1 cars. I know there is many different ways to live this hobby. But nothing in Ron's pictures jumps out at me as too far gone to preserve. If a person want's a restored Gold Bug there is probably a restored example for sale every 10 years or so. Ron's car might be the only one left that could conceivably be a preservation car. Once it is restored it is { no disrespect Ron, I am in awe of your restoration of the 1918 Sedanette. A car that absolutely needed restoration if it was to survive at all } " just " another restored Gold Bug. At select events it will could be in a line up with 4 , 5 or even 6 other restored Gold Bug's. Just my opinion; Canadian, so that is not even 2 cent's worth these days. Greg Edited February 22, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Ron, really interesting find. I love your work, and am looking forward to the restoration on you new Kissel . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Ron, is there a list of survivors by year.......cars, trucks, ect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 Ed - the Kissel Klub has a Kissel registry of every known Kissel car. This listing is not public but is accessible to all Kissel owners and their associates. It’s pretty complete but every so often another Kissel that’s unknown will show up. The two Kissels in this post string, for example, were previously not known to the registry. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Ron do you own the Gold Bug that was owned and restored by Leonard Jarvis was reportedly owned by Fatty Arbuckle? It was a super nice looking car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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