1940 show winner collector 4 door packard car for sale

[charlie hoffman]

My 90 year old friend has an original 1940 packard  show car for sale due to his health issues. The car is showroom condition inside and out and runs perfectly. the odometer shows 19,600 miles. Mileage is verifiable  by documents from all 3 owners. Original interior seats etc etc.  The car is stored in his garage in Florida and started daily.

My E mail is chashof@gmail.com   Vin # 316425   120 model 1801 The owner is 3rd owner. He has all documentation from new until present including all repair receipts and original owners manual. Original spare tire still in trunk. Original floor mats. Complete documentation dating back to original owner. Second owner had it for 40 years. All parts, hoses, bushings, tires, muffles, brakes, engine parts etc etc has been gone over and repaired or replaced as needed by a retired packard car club mechanic. All records since new has been kept. REDUCED TO $32,000 or best offer. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by charlie hoffman
price change (see edit history)

[suchan]

Nice car. Sorry to hear of the owner's health issues. The hupcap seems to indicate it's a model 120. The online value guides suggest that the asking price is quite optimistic, and since a quick sale seems to be the goal at a time of year when values can be depressed, he might consider getting the car appraised. If the cost of appraisal ($400 or so) is an issue, contact the Packard club for members in his area who might be willing to come by and offer a ballpark value, and may have contacts with a possible buyer.

Good luck with the sale.

[charlie hoffman]

Thanks for your input. the price is not firm. He is hearbroken about selling his car . Hope it goes to a person who loves it as much as he does.

 

Charlie

[alsancle]

Charlie,

 

Nice car.  Previous poster is correct.   As a 120 sedan, although a nice original, I'm going to say market is probably more like 15 to 20k (on a good day)  If the mileage is real and verifiable that will help a lot.

[George Smolinski]

I'm curious as to how he got into the car for $57,000. Since it's original, the money wasn't spent on restoration, so that leaves 2 other options I can think of. One is he overpaid when he bought it & now wants someone else to overpay so he can recoup his $$$$. The other is he may be mistaken about the money he has in to it.

 

Realistically, with failing kidneys & 90 years old, he maybe should be more concerned with finding it a good home rather than what he can sell it for. Don't give it away, unless there is an heir that would give it proper care, but be realistic about pricing it.

[charlie hoffman]

He bought it for high $40's. Put in another $7500 as follow;

Had radiator checked out and flushed entire system.  Heater core etc. Had brakes, checked out, all hoses lines, engine completely checked out, making sure that car would be roadworthy  being that it was so old.  He spared no expense in having every system gone through after buying it. I am sure he knows that he will take a loss. I think he would take $10k less than asking.  Otherwise it will go to his estate. He does have paperwork documenting the true mileage of the car  and owners etc etc and originality of the car..

His wife bought the car for him as a birthday present. 

[A. Ballard 35R]

Suggest that you make the members of the Florida Packard Club aware of the car if you have not already done so. Hope you find a good new home for such a nice Packard.

[daniel boeve]

As said before and everybody knows it is the buyer who dictates the price .When there is no buyer who will pay you a high price you have to keep it or listen better to the buying public .

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

Owner’s estate will get no more $$ letting it go to his estate vs. selling it now at a realistic price. I have an 88 yr. old friend who wants to sell me his 1926 Packard 243 for 30 K but told me to wait for “the auction” (you know, “afterwards”) and I will get it for 10K. He is right.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Jeff P. / Mn. (see edit history)

[charlie hoffman]

By him letting it go to his estate I meant his daughter and husband. He will leave it to them. They are young enough to keep it rather than liquidate it. the are financially well off and have lots of garage room.

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

Sounds like a “fishing expedition”.

[Matt Harwood]

Cash is a lot more liquid than a car. In an estate situation, it is nearly ALWAYS better to turn the car into cash, no matter how little, than to leave it to heirs that don't know about it or care about it. Saying, "Screw it, if I don't get what I want, I won't sell it and it can just sit in the garage," is leaving his loved ones with a very big headache. I deal with a lot of widows and children of collectors who are trying to get rid of dear old dad's cars, and without exception, they are having an awful time of it and are just miserable about the entire process. Not only do they feel overwhelmed by the whole estate situation, but they're now tasked with not only figuring out what the car is worth for the purposes of settling the estate, but they have to maintain it properly. And that's totally ignoring the emotional content that an old car carries. They feel like they're betraying their father/husband but they don't know what else to do. It's heartbreaking.

 

In many cases, they will have a bunch of buzzards flying around saying, "Well, you know your dad really wanted me to have this car when he passed, he knew how much I loved it. He once said I could buy it for $1500." There will always be two or three such guys following the death of most collectors with cars in their garage. If the heirs have no interest in driving and enjoying the car, what will happen is that they will either fire sale it just to have it gone, or they will hang on to it because of dad's memory, or because dad said it was worth $XX,XXX they will be terrified of getting ripped off and will refuse to sell it for less. So it sits and rots. Kids inevitably move away or grow to have other interests, including children of their own, and the widow eventually has to deal with a non-running, deteriorated old car when she sells the house. The car, of course, is now far less valuable than it was when he was alive.

 

If this is a wealthy guy whose heirs don't need this money to save their house or put food on a table, then he should sell it now for a market-correct price and leave the cash in his estate. Acting like he should get all his money back because he over-paid is a recipe for making big headaches for his family later. Why would you do that to them? Selling it and taking the loss is hard on your pride, but it is the adult, mature, responsible thing to do.

 

He over-paid by a factor of at least 2 when he bought the car. It isn't the next owner's responsibility to do the same and the only people being punished by holding out for that cash back are his family members. I sold an almost identical car last spring for about $28,000, which absolutely CRUSHED the price guides. If he can get $20-25,000, he should take it and let his heirs rest easy that this car will not be their burden. An old car, regardless of value, will weigh very heavily on them. Cash will not.

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

As usual Matt, your analysis is right on.

[Pluto]

Brilliant, Matt. Should be a side bar in the Standard Guide to the Car Guy's Last Will & Testament Preparation Manual.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Pluto (see edit history)

[scott12180]

Well said Matt. 

 

Its not always the old car guy who has an inflated value of a car’s worth. As suggested the family may also think a car is worth huge money which only makes it harder on everyone. 

 

Some years ago a dear friend many years my senior was selling his collection bit by bit. He had a Franklin which I really liked but being young I did not own a house and had no storage for the car. We agreed on a price, however, with the understanding that when I was ready I could acquire the car as we agreed. He gave me a written letter to that effect and had a copy in his personal papers. 

 

My friend died suddenly shortly after. Within a couple of years I had settled down and had a house with garage. When I approached the family I was turned away because they felt the car was worth more than we agreed to. They said I could make an offer but I did not because I felt our agreed to price was fair if not even more than the car was worth at market. 

 

I had nothing more to do with the family. Eventually the car was sold but I do not know to whom or the price. It took quite some time. 

 

So, an unfortunate end. I should have paid for the car and let my friend store it for me... but live and learn. 

[Restorer32]

It's a $20k  - $25k car and difficult to sell even at that price.  Owner paid way too much when he bought it or maybe not if he factors in the fun he apparently had with it. Do the family a favor and SELL SELL SELL.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Price issues aside, nice looking jr. Packard.  I think an hour online should yield a pretty good comfort level on price.  Having had and sold nearly the identical car (1939, but also a 120 sedan in good all around shape) I think $20 - 22K is spot on.  The miles are a plus, and I might look for a little extra for that.

 

I don't think passing it along to the heirs presents a huge headache in this case.  Owner might find that less painful than living with a big financial loss and it sounds like, in this case, heirs might not be pressured by time or finances.   Selling a nice, usable, fairly popular model is much easier than a half dozen projects.  Most dealers I think would be happy to take a car like that on consignment.  Easy if they can find a comfortable and realistic price.  

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Steve_Mack_CT
Typos (see edit history)

[suchan]

I'm guessing the seller's  children are closer to my age (65) and may have a more positive attitude towards inherited items, but the next generation generally seems to be less disposed towards heirlooms, preferring to buy new stuff. Unless a family member expresses great enthusiasm for something you've got, it's better to liquidate what you can before the "auction". Sorting through someone's belongings isn't a happy time for survivors, and trying to expertly dispose of old cars, dish sets, taxidermy, whatever, just makes it worse.

[suchan]

16 minutes ago, Imperial62 said:

re - passing it onto heirs.  How would that car be valued for taxes?  Both of my parents are still alive and I dread the day of passing and estate clean up.  Not only for the sentimental and loss factors but the distribution of assets and the government getting their share. 

 

So - back to the car. Purchased for say $49,000. Further $7500 is essentially not going to be in the equation for post passing valuation.  The wife and kids get it professionally appraised for $24,000.  The government says not so fast - what was it purchased for! $49,000?  That's what it is taxed on.  Maybe then kids don't want it so much because the net estate is less.  Maybe that is one reason among many that the next generation sell parent's cars. 

 

More reason to sell it now.  Maybe there is a tax loophole that allows a depreciation on a car like this? 

A great argument for writing a will. With the estate tax regs as generous as they've become, you can pass along a huge collection without taxes to your heirs IF YOU HAVE A WILL, at least in the states I've lived in. No will? Heirs need to find a good probate lawyer and expect to pay a boatload to both the state and the lawyer.

[Pomeroy41144]

17 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

 

In many cases, they will have a bunch of buzzards flying around saying, "Well, you know your dad really wanted me to have this car when he passed, he knew how much I loved it.

 

 

How to handle this?  I was almost one of the "buzzards", but my politeness and decency kept me in check. 

 

My friend's father had a nice vehicle that I was definitely interested in.  I knew the vehicle and the knew the owner and I also knew how good he kept care of  his stuff. 

 

The old guy was moved to a nursing home;  I held my tongue and did not become the "buzzard".  The friend's father then died after a few weeks in the nursing home. 

 

A couple weeks after the funeral, I asked my friend about his dad's vehicle.  "We sold it months ago. You should have said something sooner." 

 

Yes, I should have.  But not wanting to be the buzzard / opportunist, I held off and lost the chance to purchase the vehicle. 

 

I am good friends with this family.  Would I still be their friend had I asked right away?  Who knows. 

 

I think I did the right thing by waiting.  But I did not get a chance to purchase the vehicle. 

 

 

 

.

 

 

That Packard is a real beauty and I would be proud to own it.  

 

I always thought that the 40-41 Packards looked dated when placed next to 40-41 Cadillacs and Buicks. 

 

 

.

.

.

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

There was a convertible for sale within the last month in CT that was as nice.  Had even won some concourse trophies recently I believe.  I think that was priced under 50.  Somewhere in the 45 range.  I did some head scratching as it was close enough and very attractive but just couldn't come up with the green to purchase it.  With similar choices on the market,  other cars can be harder sales. 

I agree on a sedan that the 25G range seems right.  If you really want top dollar for low mileage,  you will have to auction it and hope. (of course if it's an auction house you need to figure in the fees and transportation costs.  That's the only way guys seem to roll the bank for originality. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Saw the convertible as well Seeker, thought it was a good deal.  Jr. Packards have to be one of the easier prewar cars to establisha value on.  What's interesting are those individual cases that blow past the generally accepted value range for a given car.  In this case seller probably should ask a premium for miles, assuming documented as he notes.  Not sure but 20% feels about right.  

A similar situation that might help the seller is the two 48 Buick sedans that happen to be for sale here as well.  One looks like a great start but very top end for a project in that model.  The restored one is also at a premium price, but what would it take to truly get the project car to that condition. If I were selling this Packard I might think about the restored Buick as a comparable unit.  It sure looks perfect but getting that price is taking patience for the right buyer.  Also assume dealer has built in some wiggle room also.  A bigger Buick isn't that far off a jr. Packard usually price wise.

Not saying any car being discussed here is or isn't  there with our looking at it, but the question I might ask is what is a reasonable premium over average good car prices for a spotless original and what is that premium for a true #1.  Those instances warrant a little more thought I think.  But your talking about 1% or less than the market.  Maybe food for another thread...

Edited December 28, 2017 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[charlie hoffman]

reduced to $39,900

[TerryB]

It's a shame such a great looking car is valued so low in today's market.   Sadly many things in the antique marketplace meet the same fate as time and taste march on. 

 

Terry

[charlie hoffman]

reduced to $39,900

At the end of the week an antique car dealer is taking the car into his very large showroom on consignment.  He will keep it there until sold. He sells worldwide. Spring and better weather brings out a lot more interest.

Great car for someone. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 1/8/2018 at 1:34 PM, charlie hoffman said:

At the end of the week an antique car dealer is taking the car into his very large showroom on consignment. 

 

Please have him price it accurately.

 

So many dealers price cars absurdly high--sometimes double 

or more the true value--thinking that someone will come along.

This practice, I feel, does a big disservice to our hobby, because

time after time people looking at the hobby from outside tell me

they had no idea that antique cars were affordable.  How many

more people might take the plunge if they only knew we enjoyed

an affordable family hobby! 

[victorialynn2]

On 12/26/2017 at 7:40 PM, Matt Harwood said:

Cash is a lot more liquid than a car. In an estate situation, it is nearly ALWAYS better to turn the car into cash, no matter how little, than to leave it to heirs that don't know about it or care about it. Saying, "Screw it, if I don't get what I want, I won't sell it and it can just sit in the garage," is leaving his loved ones with a very big headache. I deal with a lot of widows and children of collectors who are trying to get rid of dear old dad's cars, and without exception, they are having an awful time of it and are just miserable about the entire process. Not only do they feel overwhelmed by the whole estate situation, but they're now tasked with not only figuring out what the car is worth for the purposes of settling the estate, but they have to maintain it properly. And that's totally ignoring the emotional content that an old car carries. They feel like they're betraying their father/husband but they don't know what else to do. It's heartbreaking.

 

In many cases, they will have a bunch of buzzards flying around saying, "Well, you know your dad really wanted me to have this car when he passed, he knew how much I loved it. He once said I could buy it for $1500." There will always be two or three such guys following the death of most collectors with cars in their garage. If the heirs have no interest in driving and enjoying the car, what will happen is that they will either fire sale it just to have it gone, or they will hang on to it because of dad's memory, or because dad said it was worth $XX,XXX they will be terrified of getting ripped off and will refuse to sell it for less. So it sits and rots. Kids inevitably move away or grow to have other interests, including children of their own, and the widow eventually has to deal with a non-running, deteriorated old car when she sells the house. The car, of course, is now far less valuable than it was when he was alive.

An old car, regardless of value, will weigh very heavily on them. Cash will not.

 

Matt is correct. I am living this right now. My father had a dozen old cars and it is not only emotionally draining, but also overwhelming due to lack of knowledge, to liquidate them. Every point he made is something I am going through. Every One!

[charlie hoffman]

ttt

 

[charlie hoffman]

ttt

 

[scott12180]

On 1/10/2018 at 8:26 AM, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Please have him price it accurately.

 

So many dealers price cars absurdly high--sometimes double 

or more the true value--thinking that someone will come along.

This practice, I feel, does a big disservice to our hobby, because

time after time people looking at the hobby from outside tell me

they had no idea that antique cars were affordable.

Amen and Amen!

 

 I have been saying this for almost as long as I’ve been in the hobby. It is such a shame that dealers list cars and try to sell them for absolutely absurd prices and they just languish for sale for months and months if not years and years. Everyone can probably think of cars right now for sale at absurdly expensive prices yet the dealers will not budge on the price. It is a terrifically great disservice to the hobby and will hurt everyone in the end. 

[1935Packard]

8 hours ago, scott12180 said:

Amen and Amen!

 

 I have been saying this for almost as long as I’ve been in the hobby. It is such a shame that dealers list cars and try to sell them for absolutely absurd prices and they just languish for sale for months and months if not years and years. Everyone can probably think of cars right now for sale at absurdly expensive prices yet the dealers will not budge on the price. It is a terrifically great disservice to the hobby and will hurt everyone in the end. 

 

Enough dealers do this that I assume it works for them,  at least, right?  If their storage costs are low, they may able to afford to keep cars sitting around just in case someone comes along and doesn't know better than to overpay.   I agree it harms the hobby, though, and it's no way to develop a loyal customer base.  

Edited January 24, 2018 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[daniel boeve]

Absurd prices ?Not one dealer can have a showroom full of cars that are priced to high  .They will go broke in the end and this will happen one of these years when the prices will get in a downfall .I always  say its the buyer who sets the price and when no buyers show up for a to high priced car they will have to come down in the end .I cannot understand how certain dealers get their cars sold like a certain yman who's cars are always double priced .Those are also the dealers who will go to the auctions and will bid up cars till they see that they cannot make a profit anymore and then they let it go to the person  who would buy it for himself .But we are all in a certain way dealers and almost everybody will buy a car from for instance a person who has to sell it today for any price knowing that they can make a profit tomorrow .

[TheMoneyPit]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 12:47 PM, Imperial62 said:

re - passing it onto heirs.  How would that car be valued for taxes?  Both of my parents are still alive and I dread the day of passing and estate clean up.  Not only for the sentimental and loss factors but the distribution of assets and the government getting their share.

 

A good friend passed a while back and in his barn is an unrestored 1908 Ford S which he was trying to sell for an optimistic 40k before he passed. Flash forward - it was "valued" at 65k for the estate tax purposes and the executor is having fits since it would not sell anywhere near that money. I hate to admit it, but our hobby is over-pricing itself while values are on the decline. If you doubt this, look at auction results on e-bay for anything prior to 1930 (that isn't chopped) and any sedan made prior to WW2.

Edited January 24, 2018 by TheMoneyPit
fat fingers (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Jake the market is already doing what you suggest in post #36.  And that is a good thing I think.

 

That said we tend to forget every car is individual.  We may have valid arguments as to why A car sold for x and it should have been y, but if x was the number between those doing the transaction that seems to be the value, for that moment at least.  It gets redefined at the next point of sale.

 

Having had a 120 in very similar shape I know what this one would be worth to me, but next guy might be the one who just has to have this model, unrestored, etc.  Buyer is responsible, I think to determine if they get a fair deal at the e nd of the day.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, Imperial62 said:

1908 Ford model S as you know have a dwindling and specific fan base. 

 

Hard for me to believe that this is influencing prices at this point, early brass cars are expensive as they've ever been.  If brass cars (or the Model S specifically) has a "dwindling and specific fan base", then that fan base must be more affluent, because prices are solid.

 

I see two things happening.

 

One, someone who has no interest in early cars transfers their thought to ALL collectors, in other words, I don't like broccoli, so NO ONE likes broccoli.

 

Second, there's a brass car that has a known market value of $40K, and owner is asking $60K.  After it doesn't sell for a year, both owner and some observers say "See, told you there was no market for these cars".....

 

Yes, there are numerous brass cars on the market now, just as there are a lot of ALL collector cars on the market.  Good cars, fairly priced, sell easily.  Overpriced or project cars linger for a long time in the market. 

 

I know of one highly desirable car for sale now, at what appears to be a fair price, but owner won't start it nor let anyone drive it.  With those conditions of sale, the car is now a "project car", since the prospective buyer doesn't know what he's getting.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Just counterpoint Jake.  Makes for interesting car talk.  But David Coco speaks, well, I tend to listen to the master...  ?

[trimacar]

54 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Just counterpoint Jake.  Makes for interesting car talk.  But David Coco speaks, well, I tend to listen to the master...  ?

Oh my....glad there was a smiley face!  Yes, it's all interesting conjecture.

 

This Packard is a very nice car, but as has been mentioned, it's all too easy to set a price based on market for these cars.  At one time, Junior Series Packards brought very little money.  Now, they bring good money, particularly convertibles.

 

I hope this car finds a good home, but I also think the market is less for this particular car than the current asking price.  It's a shame that the family will lose money, but there are never guarantees that an old car will be worth what one has invested in it.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Dave I am glad it's a little more than I might value it at.  No need to overyjink then, how to make another one work...    I really like the 40s, but if we get another jr. I actually like the 115 club sedan or convert models a lot.  Seems like a cool little Packard and I have heard from more than one sr. Owner that the 6 is an outstanding engine.

 

And yes I do pay very close attention to your comments, always learn something!!

[trimacar]

Well, according to certain people in my family, one thing they seem to agree that they learn from me is how often I can be wrong, at least from their viewpoint!

 

I've driven a beautifully restored '37 120 convertible coupe, and I have my '38 Senior 1604 convertible coupe to compare it to.  The 120 is much lighter and more nimble, and is a pleasure to drive.  Plenty of power in a smaller car.  The 1604 is also a pleasure to drive, it's just, and I'm searching for the word, ponderous?  You know you have a lot of weight to deal with, and while the car handles it very nicely (center point steering and all that), it's an altogether different feeling.

 

It used to be that Senior cars brought 4 or 5 times what Junior cars did in the marketplace.  I'd say that's more down to 2 times now, and some very nice Junior convertibles are probably bringing over half as much as a Senior (so down to 1.5 times, if that makes sense)...