4-door convertibles

[kgreen]

Who was the typical buyer for a new, pre-war 4-door convertible?  These cars were low production units and generally phased out in 1940, except for Lincoln that made on in the early 60's.

[Larry Schramm]

As I have said, the car hobby is not for the faint of heart or wallet.

 

Typical buyer is someone that can afford to buy a particular car.  Usually saving up enough money to buy it as a particular vehicle is a priority in their live.

 

From a demographic profile I would say someone usually male over the age of 50 with an above average income.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Buick's last 4-door convertible was 1941.

[auburnseeker]

I think Caddy was 41 as well.  Ford might have been 1940.  If not,  39 for sure.  I think other makers dropped them in the 38-39 vintage.  Chevy was earlier I believe around 36? 

[nzcarnerd]

I know of two big convertibles that were sold here in NZ to wealthy landowners on adjoining properties about  two hour's drive north of Christchurch who both also had houses in the city. One was a 1930 Packard 733 and the other a 1934 Buick Series 60. Both were the only examples of their respective models imported to NZ and both cars have survived. That doesn't explain why in the 1930s they bought open bodied cars, I can only presume that people bought something which was just a later version of what they had previously owned.  Maybe it was coincidence that they bought convertibles as a big sedan would have been more practical. Remember that up until not too many years earlier - say the mid 1920s - sales of touring cars outweighed those of closed models.  In the 1920s touring cars were much less expensive than sedans (a 1924 Cadillac touring was about $3000 and a sedan $4000) but by the early 1930s the big phaetons generally cost more than an equivalent sedan.

 

As you say they were low production items. At the lower end, 1935 was the last Chevrolet phaeton, and that was in the carryover-from-1934 Standard series, and only 217 sold out of a total of well in excess of half a million sales.

Edited October 9, 2016 by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

[kgreen]

Larry, I mean who in 1940 would have bought that vehicle.  It's not sporty, could hold a family and possibly only a few of them would be chauffeur driven.  But even that is a guess.

 

If you could stereo-type:  The banker bought the Buick, the farmer bought the Ford.  The wealthy single guy bought the 2-door coupe, the family man with more than two kids bought a four-door hardtop.

Edited October 9, 2016 by sixseven (see edit history)

[kgreen]

12 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

 That doesn't explain why they bought open bodied cars, I can only presume that people bought something which was just a later version of what they had previously owned.

 

Being a holdover for the open bodied car is a very good point.  What other ideas were on that guys mind in the 30's when he bought that car?

[nzcarnerd]

Sorry sixseven I was still fiddling with the editing of my post. 

 

Re what were they thinking it is hard to say but it is important to remember that this was all a very long time ago.  These people were mostly born over 100 years ago and would have had a whole different way of thinking to what we have nowadays.

 

I guess you say that; "what was on their minds" - even today when you see some of the odd/unusual cars that actually sell.

[kgreen]

I should have used my name, sorry I didn't introduce myself - Ken.

[Thriller]

I think by use of the word "was", six seven may be asking about back in the day when they were new. 

 

I can't answer that question, but I know growing up in central Saskatchewan where winters are long and cold, there weren't very many convertibles around as they weren't very practical for our climate and in farm country, there wasn't a lot of extravagant wealth shown, except perhaps with a new tractor. 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Thriller
Correct typo (see edit history)

[38Buick 80C]

The original buyer of my Buick 80C was a lady by the name of Mary Ballard Duryee. She was a poet and president of the New York Women's Society at the same time Eleanor Roosevelt was also active in the women's society.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/01/obituaries/mary-b-duryee-92-poet-and-civic-leader.html

 

The actor John Garfield owned a 38-80C. There was also one in the Pillsbury (yes the hehe Pillsbury) estate.

 

At nearly $2000 in 1938 I would tend to believe buyers would be affluent and the car not their only car, but I am simply guessing other than the factual info above.

[jscheib]

As to the original post question, I would think that because cloth was cheaper than steel, early touring cars were more popular (and cheaper) than enclosed cars.  This held until the late 1920s. 

 

In the 1930s, through the 1940s the soft tops became more expensive as there was more industrial capability to form steel at lower cost for coupes and sedans with out a cloth roof in the center (as up to the late 30s).  Hence, the phaetons became more "glitzy" than the early touring cars and attracted more flamboyant buyers, those with money that want to be a bit flashy (as opposed those that wanted to appear more frugal (example a black Buick Roadmaster.

 

At least that is my opinion.

 

John   

Edited October 9, 2016 by jscheib (see edit history)

[john2dameron]

Surely appearance was a big factor and the 4-door convertibles in most cases were a lot more attractive than 4-door sedans were at that time.  People who could afford them probably bought them to flaunt their wealth and to make sure they were noticed when they motored by.

[Larry Schramm]

The buyer at the time the car was new would have been an upper income person.  Many times the town doctor, lawyer or another person that could show some of their signs of their success.  Buick was for years called "the doctors car"

 

If you know the matra of Alfred P. Sloan for the car business which was" A car for every purse and purpose".  Every car company copied the template he set up in the 1020's including the current imports from Japan and Asia.

 

For GM that meant that Chevrolet was the entry priced car, then Pontic, then Oldsmobile, then Buick, and finally Cadillac.  Chevrolet was at the bottom of the vehicle pricing spectrum and Cadillac was at the top.  The other brands were stair stepped between the two ends.  As a customer became more successful in life and had more money they would move up to the higher priced products.

 

The big thing that he also did was to price and content the cars differently so there was little overlap between the brands.  Example of today speak, you would be able to get automatic climate control on Cadillacs, but never on a Chevrolet. Chevrolets would only have manual climate/ AC/Heater if A/c at all.  In fact many Chevrolets at the time had heaters as an option or dealer installed accessory. 

 

I do not remember the breakdown on sales for each division, but Chevrolet was usually about 40% of GM Sales, then Pontiac would be maybe 25%, Oldsmobile 20%, then Buick maybe 10%, and Cadillac 5% or less.  

 

You would need to look into the GM historical records to confirm the actual % sales of each division at the time. The numbers above are just guesses.

 

 

[kgreen]

39 Buick, I did a search for "four door convertibles" and didn't see anything.  Love to read the other threads.  Can you share the search term please?

[John_S_in_Penna]

15 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

That doesn't explain why in the 1930s they bought open bodied cars...

In the 1920s touring cars were much less expensive than sedans (a 1924 Cadillac touring was about $3000 and a sedan $4000) but by the early 1930s the big phaetons generally cost more than an equivalent sedan.

 

Our A.A.C.A. region's newsletter recently reprinted a 1926 article

from the American Automobile Association.  The article discussed

preferences for open cars versus closed cars, and may shed

some light for us today.

 

By 1926, affordable closed cars were available, and open cars

were rapidly lessening in popularity.  The writer said that the

inexpensive makes were focusing on closed cars, whereas the

expensive makes were still successfully selling open models.

That writer said that more affluent owners could afford 2 cars--

a closed car for the lady to go about her affairs and still look nice,

and an open model for more sporty endeavors.

 

Interestingly, the younger people in 1926 were the ones gravitating

to closed cars;  the older drivers (especially men), accustomed to

open motoring, liked the outdoorsy feel of open models. 

Edited October 10, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

12 hours ago, sixseven said:

39 Buick, I did a search for "four door convertibles" and didn't see anything.  Love to read the other threads.  Can you share the search term please?

 

It was reported that you started four separate discussions on this same topic. I quickly found three of them yesterday and I have merged all of these separate discussions into the first one. If  I have now had some time to clean it up to remove some of the duplicate posts that were made in the multiple discussions and moved it to the General Forum. If there is a fourth one, if someone will report it, I will merge it too.

 

 

[kgreen]

4 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

It was reported that you started four separate discussions on this same topic. I quickly found three of them yesterday and I have merged all of these separate discussions into the first one. If  I have now had some time to clean it up to remove some of the duplicate posts that were made in the multiple discussions and moved it to the General Forum. If there is a fourth one, if someone will report it, I will merge it too.

 

 

Thanks MC Hinson.  Ken

[padgett]

As to "who", that is the same as now. When new they sold at MSRP to the "must have's" or those with standing orders. Any not sold  went for deep discounts. Same as many "halo" cars today.

 

As to why, media consisted of magazines and movies and what has always been the vehicle of choice for the glitterati ?

 

One factor might have been that in the sixties & seventies, tops were hydraulic, cylinders were located right where a rear door would go, & large cars (at least GM) all used a common convertible top that fit only 2dr B-Bodies (and another for As, & one for Fs).

 

The Lincoln continental was an exception and wonder if suicide rear doors were needed for either mechanics or ergonomics (think Caddy also had suicides).

[60FlatTop]

People tend to buy what excited them as a youth. The buyer of a 1930's convertible sedan was probably infatuated with the all weather convertibles in the salons and advertisements of the 1920's. Once the car aged to collector status the exclusivity of the cars gave them appeal. And then in the fact it was that model. I know of very few convertible sedans who would put the top down; at least the second time.

 

In the early 1970's a man in my town owned a 1939 Buick convertible sedan. He wanted to upscale it to a dual sidemount car. He bought this car from a collector car dealer in Wisconsin.

This series 40 had dual sidemounts. He swapped the front clip to his convertible and put it, plain fendered, in front of his house for $1,000 . That's me, 23 years old and the car was 34. It was originally a kind of special Special. Along with the sidemounts you can still see the streamboards. And just make out the Century stainless window trim. The car is out there and restored somewhere. The current owner may or may not have seen the sidemount attaching bolt holes in the frame. Someone has probably questioned the window trim.

 

Back to the convertible sedan owner, the person I bought the DSM sedan from was willing to reach pretty good to make his 30 year old car just a little more special.

Bernie

 

[Restorer32]

I have a friend who was a very active collector/speculator/restorer in the '60s. He specialized in Cadillacs and Packards. He told me he would buy accumulations of 1930s cars and would leave the sedans and 4 door convertibles behind.

[Rusty_OToole]

I should think the convertible sedans were mainly sold in hot climates. The buyers usually older men who were used to driving an open car and liked the cooling breeze and wide open visibility. And perhaps did not trust the safety of being surrounded by glass in an accident even though safety glass was used.

 

Another factor was road speeds. As speeds went up the open cars became more and more noisy and uncomfortable. By the thirties open cars were probably not the first choice of those planning long, fast trips. The convertible sedans of the time could be made reasonably weather proof with the top and windows up but that defeated the purpose of buying a convertible.

[Spinneyhill]

Once people realised they could go out in most weathers without getting wet and freezing cold in the wind, like they had for the last 50,000 years, they went for the practical closed car. The top also kept the sun off in hot places. Vertical windows don't heat the car like those 30 degree windows today do; a black car was not over hot back then. So a closed car was generally a much more pleasant thing to travel in. Also, you didn't get dirty when splashed in puddles, including with animal muck sometimes. Windows were a lot easier to put up or down than side curtains were to attach or detach with cold fingers. The visibility out was better too.

 

In the 30s, heaters came along. A closed car was easier to fill with warm air.

 

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I might speculate that some percentage of these low numbers cars may have been ordered by dealers for the simple prestige of having one on the show floor. That wouldn't be the case in many locations, but in more affluent areas it's a real possibility. In later years, the same thing could be said about having a Corvette or other high end model on the show floor. In terms of simple psychology, prestige often rubs off onto lesser models. After the model year was over, the dealer could afford to discount it enough to find it a home.

[C Carl]

I have heard that the percentages of open to closed cars reversed in the '20s. 90 - 10 in 1920 , 10 - 90 by 1929. Is this true ? I have one of each type , mid '20s. I realize , as Rusty' says , which one is more suited to the higher speeds and longer distances made possible by improving roads back then. I regard my pair as the "Summer Car" , and the "Winter Car". I figure that if someone had enough money for a Cadillac in pre-depression USA , they probably could afford two. Enjoy your droptop while the weather permits ! Back when I was young , we often drove top down in the snow ! Also I had a daily driver XK120 Jag with a roll bar. Couldn't get the top past it. Rain or shine , Summer or Winter ! Trudi and I would just bundle up ! Dumb kids , I guess. More sophisticated and older , the tops went up on our old Cad convertibles during the heat of mid day. Didn't want to be sun broiled on top of it. Do that a few times , and you'll learn. Evolution of thought , then as in the '20s.  - Carl

[Marty Roth]

MY 1937 BUICK ROADMASTER 80C:

 

Purchased new by the City of New York as Parade car for Mayor Fiorello (Little Flower) LaGuardia, the big Buick opened the 1939 New York World's Fair when LaGuardia shared the ride with President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The Hero's Canyon of Lower Broadway in the Wall Street Area of the Financial District was also the starting point for the famous Ticker-Tape Parades which transported Presidents Harry S. Truman, Dwight David Eisenhower, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

[kgreen]

That sure is a beauty Marty!

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Post WW2

The Kaiser Frazer was the only U.S. four door convertible before Lincoln's four door convertible (1961-1967)

Edited October 11, 2016 by JamesBulldogMiller55Buick
post WW2 (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

8 hours ago, C Carl said:

I have heard that the percentages of open to closed cars reversed in the '20s. 90 - 10 in 1920 , 10 - 90 by 1929. Is this true ? I have one of each type , mid '20s. I realize , as Rusty' says , which one is more suited to the higher speeds and longer distances made possible by improving roads back then. I regard my pair as the "Summer Car" , and the "Winter Car". I figure that if someone had enough money for a Cadillac in pre-depression USA , they probably could afford two. Enjoy your droptop while the weather permits ! Back when I was young , we often drove top down in the snow ! Also I had a daily driver XK120 Jag with a roll bar. Couldn't get the top past it. Rain or shine , Summer or Winter ! Trudi and I would just bundle up ! Dumb kids , I guess. More sophisticated and older , the tops went up on our old Cad convertibles during the heat of mid day. Didn't want to be sun broiled on top of it. Do that a few times , and you'll learn. Evolution of thought , then as in the '20s.  - Carl

The turning point came in 1921 with the introduction of the Essex coach, the first low priced closed car. Up until then the touring car was most popular and sedans sold for a large premium, 50% higher in most cases. Essex was only $100 or about 10% more, the next year the coach was the same price as the touring, and the next year it was cheaper.  Every other car maker jumped on the band wagon, Mass produced stamped steel bodies cut costs. By the early 30s tourings and roadsters were only 5 or 10% of the market. Mostly roadsters as they were the 'low price leader'. By the late 30s roadsters and tourings were passe. The open car was a convertible which was one of the most expensive models in any line and accounted for less than 5% of production.

[8E45E]

What probably killed it overall was the all-steel 'Turret Top' and other manufacturers who all went to an all steel roof.  This was the last major body panel/area that required regular maintenance to keep it weatherproof.  After 1935, convertible sedans became a 'glamor item' for those privileged enough to afford one, and didn't mind the extra maintenance over an all steel closed body.

 

As far as demographics, it would have been those who wanted to make a statement, be it a banker, doctor, airplane pilot, etc.  The same could be also said for 1960's Lincoln four door convertibles.

 

Craig

[emjay]

I look at the disappearance being due to the general design evolution.  As cars got lower the rear seat had to be moved forward in front of the axle and the rear seat area continued to get smaller and that made i difficult to mount the top bows.  As for the 60's Lincoln, the suicide doors allowed easier access to the back seat so either the seat was forward a bit more or the door could be shorter, which gave enough room to mount the bows.  There are some long wheel base models (limo style) that have the seat back a bit farther that could have been convertibles but they were not the standard model and would have made a long top.  Also note how egress to the back seat changed over time.  Originally, you walk through the much narrower door and then turn and sit.  Now you have gymnastics, insert foot, slide butt in, and then pull other leg in.  This requires a longer door.  The 60s Lincoln was much easier to get in.  A lady could sit and then rotate both legs in together.  They could get away with a smaller door with some of the seat slightly behind the door opening 

 

Drifting a bit off subject, the Checker had a better seat with it behind the C post so it was a walk in and sit down.  That was the way limos were made for years but now that most cars don't have two door model, they just simply stretch the B post and you get awkward ingress and egress.

[kgreen]

20 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

The turning point came in 1921 with the introduction of the Essex coach, the first low priced closed car. Up until then the touring car was most popular and sedans sold for a large premium, 50% higher in most cases. Essex was only $100 or about 10% more, the next year the coach was the same price as the touring, and the next year it was cheaper.  Every other car maker jumped on the band wagon, Mass produced stamped steel bodies cut costs. By the early 30s tourings and roadsters were only 5 or 10% of the market. Mostly roadsters as they were the 'low price leader'. By the late 30s roadsters and tourings were passe. The open car was a convertible which was one of the most expensive models in any line and accounted for less than 5% of production.

 

Follow the money, that's the economic history and sounds like the most viable reason for the change in desireability.  Thanks Rusty.  Ken

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, sixseven said:

Follow the money, that's the economic history and sounds like the most viable reason for the change in desirability....  

 

Ken, the cost indeed was a factor.

Please see also my Posting #16 which

gives first-hand knowledge from an

author who was actually there in those times.

[C Carl]

John , is that reprint from the 1926 AAA article in your AACA newsletter in a form which can be posted or linked to here ?  Thank you , Carl

[John_S_in_Penna]

Carl, our newsletter isn't sent or posted electronically.

I condensed the original article very much.

However, I could e-mail you a scan of the

original article (which I received from the local

A.A.A. office) if you wish.  It should be

almost entirely legible, but not all that pretty.

Send me a P.M. if you'd like it.