When purchasing an antique car, what if only a “bill of sale” is available?

[mrcvs]

And no title.  How does that work?

[JFranklin]

It can work but should be reflected in the selling price. You should see what your state requires and negotiate on that advice.

[EmTee]

Not all states issue titles for antique cars.  NY, for example, only issues titles for 1973 and newer.  1972 and older have a transferable registration slip.

[alsancle]

Totally depends on the laws in your state. If you happen to live in Massachusetts you would be screwed.

[mrcvs]

It’s Pennsylvania.  At an auction yesterday, some automobiles, including the one I was interested in, did not have titles.  Only a “bill of sale”.  How much does that affect the selling price?

[JamesR]

6 minutes ago, alsancle said:

If you happen to live in Massachusetts you would be screwed.

 

And in several other states, as well. A long time ago I reconciled myself to the fact that I will buy NO car without a valid title. There may be some very convoluted way to get a good title for such a vehicle in my state, but the process will be frustrating or infuriating...and life is too short for that.

 

Back when I l was looking at old cars online, I used to notice big price differences between cars with and cars without good titles. I presumed that to mean that a valid title is of great value to most buyers. Buying a car without a title might provide great instruction on why that is.

[ABear]

How it is handled varies by each State.

 

I believe you are in PA..

 

No title = not real good in PA..

 

They do not accept just a Bill Of Sale, you WILL need a title if you want to register and plate it for on the road use.

 

Do not go through out of state "titling" outfits, fair chance PA will reject any of those made up titles due to folks using them for washing titles clean.

 

For the most accurate and up to date info, you NEED to visit with your local Notary as those are the people you NEED to go through to handle titling, registration and plates in PA.

 

Personally, I would RUN not walk from any auto that the seller cannot provide a good clean properly signed title when dealing with PADOT especially if you want to register for on the road use.

 

1 minute ago, mrcvs said:

It’s Pennsylvania.  At an auction yesterday, some automobiles, including the one I was interested in, did not have titles.  Only a “bill of sale”.  How much does that affect the selling price?

Worthless, parts only.

 

You will spend a lot of money on the processes to get a title, can a long time before you know if the application was accepted or rejected. Mean while you have this new project that you don't dare spend a dime on until you get a reply that the application was accepted..

 

But your best source of info really is directly going to any Notary that handles PA Titling/registration and plates, not here on a forum.

 

Auctions are a horrible places to buy from, always end up paying more, most are basically pieced together like putting lipstick on a pig.

 

There are a few options but most will result in a new VIN issued with a unbranded title with the current yr..

 

My recommendation: DO NOT BUY WITHOUT A TITLE unless it is for parts.

[Bloo]

Up here in Washington the only thing it affects is who pays who. 🤪

 

[alsancle]

Btw,  something that I've only figured out in the last 5 years or so,  50% of all collector cars have some kind of title issue. 

 

1.  No title.

2.  Skipped title.

3.  Lost Title.

4.  Serial Number is wrong on title.

 

It is actually amazing and shocking.

[pkhammer]

5. Wrong year on title.

6. Incorrect body style on title.

7. Odometer reading wrong on title.

8. Wrong signature on title or signed in wrong place.

[BobinVirginia]

 

29 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Btw,  something that I've only figured out in the last 5 years or so,  50% of all collector cars have some kind of title issue. 

 

1.  No title.

2.  Skipped title.

3.  Lost Title.

4.  Serial Number is wrong on title.

 

It is actually amazing and shocking.

Yes, very shocking. The frequency of this especially with a deceased family members car is very common. 
 

[Glen Andrews]

As someone wrote: no title, no interest. The above post by "alsancle" I refer to item #4, if there is a valid title ask for it and compare it to the serial number tag or vehicle identification number tag and make sure there is a match before money changes hands. In 1974 I was stationed in North Carolina, bought a car with a Virginia title, and went to register in my home state of Pennsylvania, on the Virginia title one of the characters was incorrect, and it took about three months to get a corrected Virginia title, and then I could register the car in Pennsylvania. That was a lesson learned and ever since then I have compared the title to the car serial number, even did it when i bought new HD motorcycles, asked the dealer for the manufacturers paperwork so I could compare the numbers. If a seller doesn't want to comply, then forget that deal.

[JFranklin]

I have a Model T titled, but the engine was replaced in the far past so the title only matches the license plates. I probably should restamp the engine.

[pkhammer]

13 minutes ago, JFranklin said:

I have a Model T titled, but the engine was replaced in the far past so the title only matches the license plates. I probably should restamp the engine.

This is very common with early autos that the engine number was the serial number. The frame should have the serial number stamped on it as well so I'd maybe leave the engine number alone.

[Terry Bond]

Gee,another conversation about no title!  Imagine that!   Best advice to the OP is

1.  Learn and understand laws and procedures in YOUR STATE.

2. Try to search this forum for previous related discussions.

 

People here are very helpful but you'll discover this is one of the most commonly found questions.

And- despite pages of great info, those who post the question seldom bother to report back about how they resolved the problem.  Hopefully we'll learn more about how things work out.

Terry

[Trulyvintage]

To the OP:

 

Define " antique car ".

 

What exactly are you

referring to ?

 

Year - make - model - condition ?

 

State vehicle is located

and/or purchased or purchasing in ?

 

Jim

 

 

[Swear57]

Here in Oregon, when my dad passed away in 2017 I went down to DMV to put the titles in my name. He had Old Timer Plates & Historic plates on the cars and truck & I wanted year of Vehicle plates on them. I Took title, death certificate, my birth certificate, my license & proof of insurance. I had 6 titles and plates to do all 6. I new it was going to be $150 plus dollars. After waiting inline some 45 plus minutes. They wanted a power or water bill also. I told them I could go and put the plates on the cars and nobody going to know the difference and your going to be out $900 plus dollars. Thats what I did. Then last year I got a 67 Camaro with no title. I called Salem DMV and gave them the vin and license plate #. It had not been licensed since 1980. They sent a letter to last know address with no response. 95 days later I had a title in the mail. All they only wanted was my drivers license. Go figure

 

Jim S

[mrcvs]

4 hours ago, pkhammer said:

5. Wrong year on title.

6. Incorrect body style on title.

7. Odometer reading wrong on title.

8. Wrong signature on title or signed in wrong place.

My 1917 Maxwell was sold to me as a 1816 Maxwell.  A list of production dates by serial number did remedy that and I don’t recall it being too difficult.

[mrcvs]

It was this 1908?REO at auction yesterday.  Estate sale.  Bill of sale provided, the estate doesn’t know where titles are or if they even exist.  Applied to this and several other cars.  I guess it’s best I wasn’t the winning bidder at 23k, needs more work to get running, runs “when towed”, basically all there, but needs some refabricated parts.

 

[mrcvs]

And more photographs…

 

I thank everyone for this.

 

How much does it affect the value of this REO?

 

I did not know until attending there was this problem and the forum told me today what a big deal it is!

[Trulyvintage]

I think you are lucky you were not

the high bidder.

 

if that is the building, it was stored in. It does not look to be climate controlled, and whoever was towing it to start it and run it could have damaged the vehicle.

 

 

Jim

[mercer09]

an easy 40k car, of which I would have paid 35k wo a title.

[1912Staver]

It does look like a decent example. These Reo's are pretty desirable. One thing to keep in mind is that as far as I know { but please correct me if I am wrong } , no 1908 vehicle was issued a Title when new regardless of State. As far as I know vehicle titles just were not a thing in 1908, again please correct me if I am wrong. Over the years , State by State , most States went to a Title system.  But if this Reo was last used when it was say a 8 - 10 year old car and stuffed away in a shed , then pulled out by a collector in the 1950's - 1960's and renovated, but never road driven, at what point might it have been Titled ? 

Perhaps never ? 

 So when dealing with something as old as a 1908 vehicle there is a distinct possibility that you are not looking at a vehicle with a lost Title. But rather a vehicle that has never had a Title period. Surly there is a way to bring cars like this into the modern age and get it it's first Title .

 

 

Edited April 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Harwood's first rule of car acquisition: no title, no buy. Period.

[mrcvs]

1 hour ago, mercer09 said:

an easy 40k car, of which I would have paid 35k wo a title.

Most others seem to think no way no how without a title.

 

?????

[1912Staver]

From what I have seen here on other Title related posts there is also the question of what State is involved. And I suppose even the State of the buyer if not the same as the seller.

 Mat's approach makes perfect sense for someone like himself . A vintage car dealer. It makes no business sense at all to get involved with a car that might take months or years or possibly even never to get to the point where it can be sold through his business. I am not sure where he would stand on something like a desirable 1930's car from a place like New York State , because as I have been told by several sources New York State does not issue Titles for cars older than 1972.

 And I believe there are still one or two States that don't issue Titles at all. Cars from those States would be totally off limits as defined by the " No Title, no buy " rule ?

 Like I said above there has to be perfectly legitimate very early cars, in very long term storage that have simply never been issued a Title. Stored before Titles existed and missed out on the Title process when the practice of a particular State changed. I expect as States one by one started using titles the cars then currently on the road were then issued Titles. But I rather doubt anyone would have gone through the trouble of getting a Title for the old curved dash Olds sitting in a shed since 1917 on someone's farm circa 1940 or whenever the particular State first introduced Titles.

 Feel free to flame me to your hearts content. I am just a ignorant Canadian early car fan who for decades have been trying to get my head around the twisted and extraordinarily inconsistent topic of the United States vehicle Title system . Even more so when vintage cars are involved.

 

 

 

Edited April 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[ABear]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

no 1908 vehicle was issued a Title when new regardless of State. As far as I know vehicle titles just were not a thing in 1908, again please correct me if I am wrong. Over the years , State by State , most States went to a Title system. 

You are correct, I have a 1901 car, it would not have had a title originally, BUT it does now as domewhere between family ownership there was a change that required to have a title in order to register the car for on the road use.  So, when ownership was transferred from my Dad to me, we were able to walk into our local Notary, sign the back of the title in front of the notary, fill out some additional paperwork pay a transfer fee and walk out in 15 minutes with temporary ownership papers and registration.

 

Had we not had a clean title, we would have had more paperwork, more fees and a wait from months to years and the very real possibility of having the whole thing rejected by PADOT in Harrisburg. If rejected, you have to start the process over and pay the fees again and the possiblity that the serial number would not have been accepted and PADOT would have issued a generic home built title obliterating any value to collector car market....

 

SO, back in the early days of automobiles you would go to your local city and register the car and get a plate (early plates you were issued a number and had to buy a leather blank plate plus the numbers). In some states the plate also doubled as your drivers license at that time and you would remove the plate and hang it on another car that you wanted to drive.

 

The process in PA starts with going to a Notary that is autorized by PADOT to fill out and send paperwork to Harrisburg, Harrisburg makes the decisions, not the Notary. Notary can as long as you have a good title, transfer ownership and send to Harrisburg the paperwork to have a title in PA generated.

 

You cannot skip lines here like a carnival ride.

 

In PA, you are taking your chances and it can take a long time to get approved, having a good title makes it a 10-15 minute process.

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

The real point is that it is not the buyer's job to figure out a no-title situation. If the seller wants to sell it, HE should figure it out. If it's "easy to get a title" then the seller should do it, since he currently owns the car. Passing the buck to the buyer strongly suggests that he knows it's a goat-fark of a job and wants nothing to do with it. Why spend your money buying someone else's problem? The car just got a LOT more expensive for you, both in terms of time and money. Deals stop looking like deals when you stop to think about how much work you're going to have to do and how uncertain the result is, and that's before you even start turning wrenches.

 

There is no state in which it is "very easy" to get a title on a no-title car. Some states have processes that are less cumbersome than others, but it's always papers, legwork, time, and money that the buyer shouldn't have to spend. There's usually a way, but why subject yourself to the whims of the DMV if you don't have to? And it's not always a sure thing--you might run into a situation where the car is listed in the database as scrapped and they simply WILL NOT issue a title. The end. Now you "own" a car you can neither register nor sell. Good job. We've had that happen and it was a dead end where the seller had to take the car back because it was unsellable. I believe he is still stuck with it, despite floating it around on a "bill of sale only" ad for about six years. It's poison.

 

Unless you find a previously undiscovered Duesenberg J sitting in a barn without a title, I can't think of many cars that don't have alternatives that probably DO have good titles. Buy one of those instead.

[1912Staver]

Agreed Mat. But what about my example of a pre 1972 New York State car ? Or one from one of the other States which don't issue Titles for cars older than a certain year. Has to be thousands of collector cars in that situation. Just pretend cars from those States don't exist ?  I am not asking this question from a vintage car dealers point of view, just the average guy buying a vintage car. You are in a position to be choosey , you can I presume ship a car from anywhere as a legit business expense, the rest of us pay for things like that straight out of our pockets. So it only makes sense to deal with cars that a profit can be made on. 

 

 

 

Edited April 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[ABear]

Matt is spot on.

 

While it may not be impossible to get a title for a missing title car in PA, it can be a very long cumbersome expensive process which is done remotely in Harrisburg. Not unusual for paperwork to vanish into thin air in Harrisburg or Harrisburg digs up a lost detail like the serial number or VIN was scrapped, either way you have a large expensive paper weight sitting in a corner of your garage for who knows how long.

 

Titles in PA are issued by Harrisburg and unlike many States, Harrisburg REQUIRES the titles to be returned to them in the event of ownership transfer changes OR scrapping the vehicle.

 

This is far different from many States which the seller signs the back of the title over to the new owner and the new owner now holds their title. Even THIS can trip you up in getting a successful title transfer in PA if you do not do this properly. Often times in other States, seller does not sign the back and the buyer does not sign the back basically trading titles and now you have a really messed up dirty title especially if the original owners are dead or unable to be found..

 

Harrisburg actually takes back the old title with sellers name and address and will issue a brand new title with new owners name and address. So, to transfer ownership in PA, you NEED a good clean properly done title if you really want to make your life much easier..

 

Oh, yeah as Matt has mentioned, in PA, ANY serial number or VIN that has been reported as scrapped has zero chance of being revived with the original serial number or VIN. Those branded as scrap must only be used as PARTS to fix or build a new project and with those, you have to use the reconstructed or special build method to obtain a title. As I have mentioned, reconstructed or special build obliterates and historical and collector value..

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Agreed Mat. But what about my example of a pre 1972 New York State car ? Or one from one of the other States which don't issue Titles for cars older than a certain year. Has to be thousands of collector cars in that situation. Just pretend cars from those States don't exist ?  I am not asking this question from a vintage car dealers point of view, just the average guy buying a vintage car. You are in a position to be choosey , you can I presume ship a car from anywhere as a legit business expense, the rest of us pay for things like that straight out of our pockets. So it only makes sense to deal with cars that a profit can be made on.

 

I guess a more specific term would be "ownership documents." States that only offer registrations on cars over a certain age are not a problem at all. You can turn a valid registration into a title without much difficulty as long as it's current. I buy cars from Canada, New York, Alabama, and Georgia all the time, and those are registration-only places. Ohio happily issues new titles in my name when I present the signed registration paperwork along with a bill of sale from that same owner.

 

A current registration, while not a title, is much different than "bill of sale only," which is still reserved for fools or for vehicles that don't require titles, like race cars.

 

So instead of splitting hairs between "title" and "registration" let's instead say it's a mistake to buy a car without official, current ownership documentation, regardless of whether it's a title or registration.

 

Better?

[1912Staver]

Just now, Matt Harwood said:

 

I guess a more specific term would be "ownership documents." States that only offer registrations on cars over a certain age are not a problem at all. You can turn a valid registration into a title without much difficulty as long as it's current. I buy cars from Canada, New York, Alabama, and Georgia all the time, and those are registration-only places. Ohio happily issues new titles in my name when I present the signed registration paperwork along with a bill of sale from that same owner.

 

A current registration, while not a title, is much different than "bill of sale only," which is still reserved for fools or for vehicles that don't require titles, like race cars.

 

So instead of splitting hairs between "title" and "registration" let's instead say it's a mistake to buy a car without official, current ownership documentation, regardless of whether it's a title or registration.

 

Better?

 

 

Much better ! Thanks for the clarification. 

[DavidinCA]

NY State never issues titles for a car older than 1972, what they do is issue a transferable registration.  In NYS, for newer cars the registration is marked non-transferable.  A transferable registration for a pre-1972 car registered in NYS is proof of ownership and while not called a title serves that purpose.  I’ve bought cars from NYS and registered them in other states, CA, PA, and NC specifically, with no trouble at all.  I got a raised eyebrow when I explained that in NYS cars pre-1972 don’t have titles, they looked it up in a book which confirmed it to be true and I had no trouble at all.  

 

[DavidinCA]

I’m not sure why someone would want to buy a car from someone who doesn’t have proof of legal ownership. If the car was stolen, then the buyer is out the money and the car since the car will likely legally be owned by the person who it was stolen from or their insurance company.  The bill of sale will be meaningless.  I suppose the buyer could try to recover their money from the person they bought the car from, but there is no guarantee of success.  If the car really belongs to the seller, then as Matt has said, the seller needs to get proof of ownership prior to selling it.  

[ABear]

2 minutes ago, DavidinCA said:

NY State never issues titles for a car older than 1972, what they do is issue a transferable registration.  In NYS, for newer cars the registration is marked non-transferable.  A transferable registration for a pre-1972 car registered in NYS is proof of ownership and while not called a title serves that purpose.  I’ve bought cars from NYS and registered them in other states, CA, PA, and NC specifically, with no trouble at all.  I got a raised eyebrow when I explained that in NYS cars pre-1972 don’t have titles, they looked it up in a book which confirmed it to be true and I had no trouble at all.  

 

I am sure PA most likely has some way of dealing with a out of state transferable registration which would show some sort of proof of ownership of the former owner..

 

But, I suspect it may not be as easy as having an actual title of ownership. PADOT does not have that procedure info on their website so one in PA would HAVE to find a good PA Notary that has a lot of experience with dealing with that scenario. Not all Notaries are well versed in handling all aspects of the paperwork so finding one that knows the ins and outs is critical to getting the mission accomplished.

[DavidinCA]

PA had no problem with it at all.  It was the same as registering a car with a title.  CA had to look it up, since the person at the DMV hadn’t seen one before.  It’s not the same as trying to register a car which should have a title, but for whatever reason doesn’t.  The way to think of it is that a NYS transferable registration is all the documentation needed to prove ownership, there is nothing missing.  It’s not like trying to register a car with only a bill of sale and the past registration, when there should be a title.  

[Brass is Best]

The title and proper paperwork are more important than the car. Without proper paperwork you do not own the car. Always remember that.

[ABear]

1 hour ago, DavidinCA said:

I’m not sure why someone would want to buy a car from someone who doesn’t have proof of legal ownership. If the car was stolen, then the buyer is out the money and the car since the car will likely legally be owned by the person who it was stolen from or their insurance company.  The bill of sale will be meaningless.  I suppose the buyer could try to recover their money from the person they bought the car from, but there is no guarantee of success.  If the car really belongs to the seller, then as Matt has said, the seller needs to get proof of ownership prior to selling it.  

Which is why PA can be very difficult to deal with, they require a title which you must surrender at time of ownership transfer. Without establishing a valid chain of ownership anyone can simply steal a vehicle, write up a bill of sale on the back of a napkin and establish they are the legal owners..

 

No title, now it is up to the buyer to establish some sort of legal documentation that is acceptable to PA. A bill of sale is not a recognized form of ownership, the seller could have a stolen vehicle and sold it to you and given you some made up information like name, date, time and price on any old scrap of paper, but it is not a legal document.

 

Some States are very lax, one state I bought a car from doesn't require seller or buyer to sign off on the back of the title, they simply hand it over to the buyer and that is acceptable in THAT state.. The problem is the way that transfer happens may not be acceptable in all States.. So, I did my homework, contacted one of the Notaries I use and got the EXACT way on how PA needs the title to be handled. In my case, the SELLER had to find a Notary in their state and sign the back in front of the Notary in the seller spot. Notary in that state had to stamp the title with their seal. When I brought the car home, gave title to my Notary, signed the buyer section, and a few forms plus some transfer fees and done in 15 minutes.

 

I did that for a car that I was needing for parts, reason being is I CAN show proof of legal ownership at all times if ever questioned by authorities. Not to mention, it gives me a second option, if the car was in better condition or could be restored and resold I now have more value built in.

 

On edit, something else to consider, in PA, you show up with a Bill of sale they will use that to calculate the PA sales tax you will pay at the time of transfer..

 

So, OP was looking at a vehicle that sold for say $40,000 at auction, that isn't what the OP will pay to complete the sale, he will also pay all action fees on top of that price like buyers fees and such.. Now that Bill of sale will reflect say $45,000..

 

Yep, that means the OP will be paying 6% of $45K.. or $2,700 in sales taxes owed to PA on top of all other fees..

 

Now, if OP bought the car WITH a clean title, he can present the title and then give a fair market value as the sale price.. So, if one wasn't in a auction bidding war and no reserve OP could possibly win the car for say $35,000 they can save $600 or more in PA sales tax..

 

I would make a hard pass on no title and a hard pass on auctions..

Edited April 22 by ABear (see edit history)

[Scooter Guy]

23 hours ago, alsancle said:

Totally depends on the laws in your state. If you happen to live in Massachusetts you would be screwed.

That is absolutely at the heart of the matter: it 100% depends on the laws in your state. Some are evidently easy to navigate, while others make it impossible or nearly so. 

 

Buyers should also beware that loopholes are closing (i.e. using the lost title companies, running the vehicle through non-title states, etc.). 

 

Do your homework before you buy!

[61polara]

I'm in North Carolina where it is very difficult without a title.  Here a car without a title I valued as a parts car.