It was hard to service cars in the early 1900s - History repeating itself?

[Leif in Calif]

My 2018 Chev Volt plug in hybrid had a problem yesterday. It's been a wonderful car 'till now (98,000) miles but being a PHEV, it's very complex and since we are are hoping it's a warranty covered issue, we had to take it to the dealer.  They have only one technician trained on the vehicle (almost 160,000 produced) and he's pretty booked up.

   All of which made wonder about motorists in the early brass ear. Many years ago, I knew an old man who once owned a black smith shop.  He met his wife in 1910, when she took her car to him to have the brakes fixed, was unable to stop and smashed his work bench. I wonder how many black smiths were actually competent to work on cars, especially given that many manufacturers had novel solutions and nothing was standard. 

    I know my little town had 86 automobiles in 1909. No gas stations for a decade or more after that. Did they worry about getting gas the way today's EV owners worry about finding a charger? Here they got it from the pharmacy because they also sold other chemicals. I would imagine if you set off into the hinterlands, it could be a problem.  

[TerryB]

There is a Mercedes Benz video that recreates Berta Benz taking the first road trip in a car her husband was building in their greenhouse.  Ol’ Karl didn’t think it was road ready but his wife decided to use it to go visit family kind of without his blessing to do so.  Along the way Mrs Benz needs fuel so she goes into a tavern in a small town and asks where the drug store is.  She then goes there to get fuel for the car, dumps it in and keeps driving.  Then when the visit is over she drives back.

 

Every first adapter has a story to tell.  My employer, RCA, built widescreen TVs long before the widescreen media to show on it was readily available.  The early adapters plunked down big money to get these first units. The sales quickly dropped off until the high definition tv content became available.

 

Elon saw the need to invest in charging stations too so his business plan had both the new technology cars and a place to charge them.  Other manufacturers didn’t embrace the charging model as much so their sales lag behind Tesla.  Now they are paying to license charging technology to make their cars compatible with Tesla chargers. 
 

History does repeat.

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Leif in Calif said:

I wonder how many black smiths were actually competent to work on cars, especially given that many manufacturers had novel solutions and nothing was standard. 

FAR more than someone under "Electricians" in the phone directory would know about electric cars today!!

 

Craig

[TerryB]

17 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

FAR more than someone under "Electricians" in the phone directory would know about electric cars today!!

 

Craig

Not really, thanks to YouTube videos you can learn a lot in a short time.  Auto mechanics in 1900 didn’t have that luxury.

[60FlatTop]

About 70 to 80 years ago a doctor would pick up a new born baby, give him one sharp smack to the bottom and install all the knowledge needed to correct anyone's short comings. Don't believe me? Just ask one.

 

Other things take time to join the flow of how the world works.

[John348]

Blacksmiths did not have to have a license, all they needed was a sign and the needed tools. 

 

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, John348 said:

Blacksmiths did not have to have a license, all they needed was a sign and the needed tools. 

 

And an open flame.  (No permit required.)

 

Craig

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

Not really, thanks to YouTube videos you can learn a lot in a short time.  Auto mechanics in 1900 didn’t have that luxury.

Too many electricians, mechanics, plumbers, and other tradesmen still in business to believe that one!!    

 

Some may resort to YouTube for assistance, but the majority of people will never take it upon themselves to diagnose & repair something.

 

Craig

[PAV8427]

They YouTube it so they can tell the people that know how to fix it how to fix it. 
And why. 

[8E45E]

2 minutes ago, PAV8427 said:

They YouTube it so they can tell the people that know how to fix it how to fix it. 
And why. 

That's why there are no more Shop Manuals being printed for newer vehicles.  Instructional videos are online, and have been for at least two decades in CD-ROM format, and VHS tapes prior to that.   (I still have the VHS set-up and instructional videotape for my 1990 vintage Miller Cricket XL MIG welder.)

 

Agreed that it does in many instances eliminate guesswork and/or shows some shortcuts, thus saving time in the end.

 

Craig

[Leif in Calif]

On 11/29/2023 at 2:30 PM, 8E45E said:

Too many electricians, mechanics, plumbers, and other tradesmen still in business to believe that one!!    

 

Some may resort to YouTube for assistance, but the majority of people will never take it upon themselves to diagnose & repair something.

 

Craig

Youtube is great, but there are often examples of "doing it the hard way". I had to replace the coils on my grand daughter's Lexus SUV. It is a V6 with a traverse engine. The front 3 cylinders are exposed but the back three are under the intake manifold. Many Youtubes showed the complicated process of removing the manifold and all the attached sensors, but there was one by a female mechanic who just reached behind. She said you need small hands to do it that way. My hands are not small but I can endure discomfort, and I was able to do it that way. If there are several Youtubes on a given subject, be sure to check them all!  

[Dr B]

36 minutes ago, Leif in Calif said:

Youtube is great, but there are often examples of "doing it the hard way". I had to replace the coils on my grand daughter's Lexus SUV. It is a V6 with a traverse engine. The front 3 cylinders are exposed but the back three are under the intake manifold. Many Youtubes showed the complicated process of removing the manifold and all the attached sensors, but there was one by a female mechanic who just reached behind. She said you need small hands to do it that way. My hands are not small but I can endure discomfort, and I was able to do it that way. If there are several Youtubes on a given subject, be sure to check them all!  

Not sure how many of these response about YouTube videos are tongue-in-cheek versus sincere.  However, I agree the use of YouTube videos to learn a specific car repair has been extremely helpful for me (usually for repairing modern cars rather than collector cars).  We can't hang out at the corner gas station repair shop to "see one do one" training any more. I believe YouTube has become the replacement for that.  I also agree with Leif in Calif, check more than one video.  Frequently I have found ones that are either easier to follow, more simple, or just better.   

 

Robert

[60FlatTop]

I have found that designers and decision makers are work in the realm of conception. The role of the trades person functions in details.

 

When experience provides immediate insight into both concept and detail that person is branded as a misfit and malcontent.

 

I have done a lot of electrical work, mostly diagnostics. The great difference between a "real" electrician and me is that the electrician does their work with the power turned off.

[28 Chrysler]

My Grandfather was a farmer/black smith in South Dakota in the early part of the 1900s . He would repair most anything mechanical. My father told a story about pushing a 1913? Ford into a sink hole because it wasn't worth repairing a $5 car

[c49er]

Also after watching that oh so good repair U-tuber vid be sure to click the "Subscribe" button. Jeesh...

Soon the day will come these back yard U-tuber's training vids will have a subscriber fee just to watch.

 

[60FlatTop]

I subscribe to one that covers computerized engine diagnostics. Been at least a year now. $2.50 a month.

 

I hear a lot of old guys say "I will never" or "I would never". Whatever the case may be they just seem to being denying themself due to some 18th or 19th century values they heard from someone born on a kitchen table and their only source of protein growing up was a few squirrels.

 

Maybe it is a perspective thing.

[Rusty_OToole]

Remember a comment from about 1900 that a professional (blacksmith, mechanic) could make more nonsense of a car repair in a few minutes than an amateur would in a year. I think it was referring to the electric ignition on a DeDion Bouton tricycle.

[Dr B]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

someone born on a kitchen table and their only source of protein growing up was a few squirrels

Your comments continue to make me laugh.  Thanks.

 

Robert

[CarNucopia]

I'd say history is repeating itself, but there's no need to go back to 1909. GM continually kills a product once they reach the point where it's really good. I've no doubt the day after the Volt was canceled, dealers canceled paying for service training. Combine that with the normal attrition from technicians leaving/retiring and you're left with a small group trained to do the work.

 

With regards to service information online, I was pleasantly surprised to learn my library has a bunch of service manuals, including Alldata, availably through their website. It seems pretty comprehensive. 

[60FlatTop]

ALLDATA has a DYI level subscription for a single car. It goes back to 1982. One month is $20. When I bought the '05 Cadillac last year I took the one month to go over various procedures that I might need and to give me a general overview of the car. It was well worth the familiarization and I let it lapse. Many things are the same or similar to what I already know.

If a job comes up that is outside my comfort zone I would resubscribe.

 

With a firm knowledge of the basics the advanced stuff isn't really that hard. You can bet the burette in carburetor on that.

Edited December 3, 2023 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Leif in Calif]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

With a firm knowledge of the basics the advanced stuff isn't really that hard. You can bet the burette in carburetor on that.

HA! Never saw burette in carburetor before! Thanks for that!

[8E45E]

22 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

I'd say history is repeating itself, but there's no need to go back to 1909. GM continually kills a product once they reach the point where it's really good. I've no doubt the day after the Volt was canceled, dealers canceled paying for service training. Combine that with the normal attrition from technicians leaving/retiring and you're left with a small group trained to do the work.

The stillborn 1989 Fiero comes to mind!!

 

Craig

[West Peterson]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:59 AM, Dr B said:

Not sure how many of these response about YouTube videos are tongue-in-cheek versus sincere.  However, I agree the use of YouTube videos to learn a specific car repair has been extremely helpful for me (usually for repairing modern cars rather than collector cars).  We can't hang out at the corner gas station repair shop to "see one do one" training any more. I believe YouTube has become the replacement for that.  I also agree with Leif in Calif, check more than one video.  Frequently I have found ones that are either easier to follow, more simple, or just better.   

 

Robert

I 100% agree. I use YouTube all the time, and like Leif, I always check out every one on a specific job. Some of them are hacks, but you can still learn from them how "not to do it," or see if the "fix" is the correct solution. Perhaps the main reason I check YouTube is to see if it's a job I really want to try and tackle myself, and if it requires tools (and skills) that I don't have.

 

In regard to the snarky comment that one uses YouTube so that they can tell the mechanic how to do it.... well, I've had to do that several times, too!! Today, mechanics seem to rely on whatever the computer diagnostic reader tells them. I've had cars in a shop where it took them a good number of hours just to figure out where to start. That's $100+ per hour of research time. If I can research the problem on YouTube based on the symptoms that others have experienced, I'm a much smarter customer, and yes, perhaps I AM smarter than the mechanic... at least in diagnosing what the problem is. I don't blindly believe that mechanics know everything. 

 

So... as my dad always said, "Trust your mother, but cut the cards." Too many mechanics today are more into Removing and Replacing, vs fixing, so it's always good to go in with some knowledge.

[EmTee]

I was cleaning out the drain in the bathtub a couple years ago and had to remove the 'tip-toe' drain plug.  Well, as I was snaking the drain I heard a loud POP and discovered the drain stopper had exploded into a pile of parts.  After unsuccessfully trying about 5 different assembly options I decided to try Google.  Believe it or not, there was a You-Tube video showing how to reassemble it!  I was amazed...

[TerryB]

Many manufacturers are loading YouTube videos on how to use or install their products.  This has to be a an easier way to get information to the customer than hiring phone support people. Even on less technical subjects I’ve discovered some better ways or things to avoid when doing something, especially in a new hobby that I might be investing.

[zepher]

15 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Many manufacturers are loading YouTube videos on how to use or install their products.  This has to be a an easier way to get information to the customer than hiring phone support people. Even on less technical subjects I’ve discovered some better ways or things to avoid when doing something, especially in a new hobby that I might be investing.

 

I have watched many YT videos from appliance parts suppliers that show you exactly how to perform the repair using their parts.

I've used these videos to replace everything from simple door switches to replacing the bearings and seals on my washing machine.

[Porsche 68]

Years ago I brought a friends 1928 Whippet to a shop to have it safely inspected one of the wise ass mechanics asked what is that old piece of junk I said don’t worry about it you can’t plug your scanner into it so you would not know how to fix it ! John 

[rocketraider]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

Many manufacturers are loading YouTube videos on how to use or install their products.  This has to be a an easier way to get information to the customer than hiring phone support people. Even on less technical subjects I’ve discovered some better ways or things to avoid when doing something, especially in a new hobby that I might be investing.

I used Sears' YouTube channel to repair a broken blade clutch cable on my Craftsman rider mower. Figured surely the mfg would have the best way.

 

My gut said pull the steering wheel and remove the top of the cowl to get at the mechanism.

 

I wish I had gone with my gut, because after doing it "their" way and trying to remove the fuel tank for access to it, I ended up doing what my gut said do and the job went a lot smoother.

 

I did use YouTube to repair a broken shift tube on my 93 F150. Ford shop manual based the repair on removing the column from the truck and doing it on the bench. Using a Ford tech's video I figured it could easily be done in the vehicle.

 

The parts store had the redesigned Dorman repair part on the shelf if that tells you how common the shift tube repair is. The redesigned part has a lot more meat in the area these tubes break.

[PAV8427]

8 hours ago, West Peterson said:

I 100% agree. I use YouTube all the time, and like Leif, I always check out every one on a specific job. Some of them are hacks, but you can still learn from them how "not to do it," or see if the "fix" is the correct solution. Perhaps the main reason I check YouTube is to see if it's a job I really want to try and tackle myself, and if it requires tools (and skills) that I don't have.

 

In regard to the snarky comment that one uses YouTube so that they can tell the mechanic how to do it.... well, I've had to do that several times, too!! Today, mechanics seem to rely on whatever the computer diagnostic reader tells them. I've had cars in a shop where it took them a good number of hours just to figure out where to start. That's $100+ per hour of research time. If I can research the problem on YouTube based on the symptoms that others have experienced, I'm a much smarter customer, and yes, perhaps I AM smarter than the mechanic... at least in diagnosing what the problem is. I don't blindly believe that mechanics know everything. 

 

So... as my dad always said, "Trust your mother, but cut the cards." Too many mechanics today are more into Removing and Replacing, vs fixing, so it's always good to go in with some knowledge.

I agree,knowlege goes a long way when paying good money for repairs. 

No snarkiness intended, my experience comes from that caliber of people who YouTube something, and usually the first one they find, and bring their issue to me and say "Thats an easy fix" "All you have to do is......."

Then tell me how to set up,program my CNC, what to set my welder to and what clamps to use to machine/fabricate something. 
Then wonder why it took so much longer and $$$ then the YouTube they watched. 

[TerryB]

Yes that can be the case too.  I’ve watched hobby related YouTube videos and I’m sure that many edit out the parts where things go wrong or they must use ultra high speed drying paint and glue to get done in the time it takes them.  

[ply33]

As long as we are sharing YouTube video stories, the infotainment system stopped working on my 2004 Prius when it was 12 or 13 years old with nearly 200K miles on the car. Since the heater and air conditioning controls were part of the touch screen infotainment I really wanted to get it fixed. The dealer wanted to charge me about the Blue Book value of the car to fix it. Shopping around, there were some units in junk yards but no guarantees about condition, etc.

 

So I resorted to the Internet in general and YouTube and found that my early production car had a solder mask issue that led to early failure on many cars. I guess I was just lucky that mine didn’t fail during the warranty period.  

 

Anyway that led to the discovery that there was a single pin on a single connector between two boards that was the usual culprit. And some other YouTube videos showed how to quickly disassemble the dash. After watching those videos it took me about 1 hour total to remove the infotainment system, disassemble it, reflow the solder on the one pin, reassemble and reinstall the unit. Since I already own a soldering iron my material and tool cost was zero and an hour is, for me, much shorter time than most of my automotive repairs. Worked find for another year or two unit a truck totaled the car.

 

There are a lot of junk videos out there. But if you look around you can often find exactly what you are looking for on repair procedures on things that are new to you.

 

WIth respect to blacksmiths in the old days, it is my impression from reading literature of the time that many were very mechanically inclined. It would not surprise me if many did a pretty good job fixing the cars that came their way. But I am also pretty sure that, like now, there were some ham fisted ones who did not have a clue about how to fix a horseless carriage.

[Dandy Dave]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:13 AM, 60FlatTop said:

I have done a lot of electrical work, mostly diagnostics. The great difference between a "real" electrician and me is that the electrician does their work with the power turned off.

I resemble that remark. 🤪😜 The Important thing is to know when to shut it off before you touch something that may ruin your day. 😉

[West Peterson]

11 hours ago, ply33 said:

So I resorted to the Internet in general and YouTube and found that my early production car had a solder mask issue that led to early failure on many cars. I guess I was just lucky that mine didn’t fail during the warranty period.  

 

Anyway that led to the discovery that there was a single pin on a single connector between two boards that was the usual culprit. And some other YouTube videos showed how to quickly disassemble the dash. After watching those videos it took me about 1 hour total to remove the infotainment system, disassemble it, reflow the solder on the one pin, reassemble and reinstall the unit.

 

Been there done that. I had a similar problem with my 2005 Chrysler Crossfire where all power worked, but the starter wouldn't. Solder on one pin on a control board needed to be re-flowed. Checking with Mercedes-Benz, there were no answers, and Chrysler shops the same. Online I found the exact pin on the board that needed to be re-flowed. Instant fix. 15 minutes. It was a common-enough problem where every Crossfire enthusiast knew how to fix, but your local Mercedes dealer shop knew nothing. I'm just assuming, but it seems like those who work for the dealers are not permitted to do any research by Googling.

[Rod P]

Ignorance is bliss to some Dealers. There can be dozens of people with same problem on line, yet dealer swears never heard about it. 

 

At least if you find a 'good' YouTube you can have a realistic idea of time and cost involved, and if something is worth or possible to fix. 

 

Once we might have gone to the library to work out the same, but now libraries have give up fixing help to YouTube.

[EmTee]

53 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

It was a common-enough problem where every Crossfire enthusiast knew how to fix, but your local Mercedes dealer shop knew nothing.

 

 

The dealer does not perform that sort of repair; they want to replace factory authorized assemblies.

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, ply33 said:

it is my impression from reading literature of the time that many were very mechanically inclined.

I still remember a conversation back in the early 1980s when a coworker described one of the building mechanics as a "good figurer". I guess I looked puzzled because he added "You know, someone who is good at figuring things out".

 

My wife's father was the Chief Engineer of the local hospital power plant, something we shared in common. In the early 2000s I took my wife to an industrial maintenance conference to get out of the cold. She attended a couple of sessions with me. One was on the new technology of orthographic projections of building subsystems. She was attentive and impressed. She asked "What would my father have thought of that technology?". I told her he would have laughed a little like I did. Now, maybe, the boss could see what he envisioned in his head.

 

As a historical aspect, the formation of the large universities in Europe from 1000-1200 AD changed the world radically. Prior to that time there were genetic lineages in a person's career or occupation. The university gave anyone the opportunity to follow any path as long as they demonstrated compliance to the establishment. Today we live in a world that is the culmination of a thousand years of square pegs pushed into round holes. It is an experiment that has some definite shortcomings.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[EmTee]

8 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

The university gave anyone the opportunity to follow any path as long as they demonstrated compliance to the establishment.

That was then.

 

This is now:

The university gives anyone the opportunity to follow any path.

[Borough Essex]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:07 AM, West Peterson said:

" Too many mechanics today are more into Removing and Replacing, vs fixing, so it's always good to go in with some knowledge"

My brother has been a mechanic for 45 years and has been hearing the "mechanics are glorified parts changers" spiel from people our age since he was an apprentice. He can fix anything, and if he doesn't know something or encounters a problem he'll ask a friend who is a guru on that particular issue and then it will be fixed. The manual for a rarer car he hasn't worked on before is also appreciated and he is not averse to looking at a Youtube of someone who knows what they were doing advising on a repair. Mechanics do this with modern cars too. What a mechanic won't take kindly to is a customer lecturing the mechanic on how to fix a problem; a busy mechanic's eyes will just glaze over and they'll tell the customer to fix the car themselves then if they know so much.

[EmTee]

I remember a sign similar to this on the wall at the garage owned by my best friend's father:

 

[West Peterson]

16 hours ago, Borough Essex said:

My brother has been a mechanic for 45 years and has been hearing the "mechanics are glorified parts changers" spiel from people our age since he was an apprentice. He can fix anything, and if he doesn't know something or encounters a problem he'll ask a friend who is a guru on that particular issue and then it will be fixed. The manual for a rarer car he hasn't worked on before is also appreciated and he is not averse to looking at a Youtube of someone who knows what they were doing advising on a repair. Mechanics do this with modern cars too. What a mechanic won't take kindly to is a customer lecturing the mechanic on how to fix a problem; a busy mechanic's eyes will just glaze over and they'll tell the customer to fix the car themselves then if they know so much.

 

I'm sorry if I hit a sore spot. It sounds to me like he doesn't work for a dealer....