What are you first hand driving experiences with pre-1930 cars?

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, Jack Bennett said:

I rides on 4” wide by 21” in diameter tires, each inflated to 90 pounds, and, while the car is skitters on dry pavement, it is scary on the wet stuff.

40 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

90 PSI?!? Really? That seems like WAY too much. No wonder it's nervous and rides like a brick.

I agree with Matt.  I use 60 to 62 p.s.i. in my 33-inch tires.

[zepher]

After driving very large trucks and equipment in my 20's I am fairly used to shifting without a clutch and I actually have more trouble shifting a prewar car when I double clutch.

When you upshift, you have to really listen and feel for when the car is ready to be moved into the next gear.

The gearshift lever should just 'fall' into place when you put pressure on it.

Never just yank on the shift lever.

As others have mentioned, you must drive and shift these cars like one would a modern big rig.

Slow, methodical take offs and short shifts.

If I have spent enough time in the driver's seat, I can effectively downshift without too much issue and zero noise or grinding.

It's all about rev matching so it will just fall into gear.

Edited October 31, 2023 by zepher (see edit history)

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

When I teach people to drive pre war cars, I never teach double clutching........ever. Just shift early. Each cars has its own personality when you shift it. Also, I never down shift a pre war car.......ever. Only use a downshift for long grades, never to slow down like a modern car. 

 

Ed you have way way more experience than me driving.  But I'll take a video of downshifting the Stearns from 3rd to 2nd and 2nd to first with zero grind.   In fact,  I try very hard to be in first before the car comes to a complete stop, as it makes the shift much easier when the transmission is hot.

 

The key is timing the rev to the correct RPM on the downshift.  And that takes practice on that car.   First time in a car, even for an experienced driver is an adventure I would imagine.

[edinmass]

The Stearns shifts so well because of the guy who sorted it. Phil with the hands like George The Animal Steel adjusted that thing (clutch) ten times.

[Porsche 68]

First old car   1928 model 97 Whippet what a blast I was hooked Then I got m 34 Dodge coupe faster stops better rides nicer Next is the 41 Chevy special deluxe just got the brakes done tonight waiting for the radiator to be repaired. Oh and the 1925 dodge  depot hack slow as a snail turning radius of an aircraft carrier but fun nonetheless.  John

[West Peterson]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

... I had to make a journey in my 1931 car of 3 1/2 + hours , usually more on the + side. up and down long grades , across several bridges in the NY Metro area .  ...

 

Reminds me of my dad ... I used to travel cross country with him. He never owned a trailer. Driving the Packard not only hours on end, but days on end. He told of a story once of entering NYC with the Packard, through one of the tunnels. He ran out of gas in the middle and slowed to a stop. He said before he could think of a plan, a tunnel service truck pulled in behind him, and pushed him out!! The funny thing about him was that if you handed him a screw driver, he wouldn't have known which end was the working end. "Nothing that a credit card can't fix" was his mantra as he drove that thing 10,0000 miles during a one-month period. I'm glad I picked up my mechanical skills from my mother.

[sleeve-valve]

My 1921 Stearns-Knight has the 248 ci 4 cyl 57hp sleeve-valve engine, 125 inch wheelbase. It is comfortable up to about 35mph. It rode like a rigid frame Harley until I greased the springs, now its much smoother but no luxury lacht from the 60s. Steering was a workout until I removed the grease fitting from the steering box and filled it with steering box lube, now it's easy while moving but still a bit tough when stopped. It has the 3 speed with no synchros, shift to second early, if done right it almost pulls the shifter into second. Follow soon into third, usually easier. Downshifting to second is tough, if I haven't driven it in a while it takes time to re-learn. I don't drive when headlights are needed since they are less brilliant than my 4Dcell mag light. I really enjoy it for what it is!

[Jack Bennett]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

90 PSI?!? Really? That seems like WAY too much. No wonder it's nervous and rides like a brick.

You are right in one respect, and I am right in another. The tires are not 21 inches, rather they are 32”X4”. But, the inflation pressure, which is on the inside of the tire, and not the outside, so that I can take a photo,  is 90 psi. I always thought. that 35 or 40 psi was about right, but my shoulder replacement told me it was wrong. The car rode like it had no suspension at all, and, even with the bus sized steering wheel, was impossible to turn when stopped. I posted. the problem to the forum, and I was told to replace the king pin bushings with roller bearings. This seems like a good, and doable solution, but it just didn’t seem to be something a person would do to a new 1923 Dodge Roadster. 
So I “got down” on the problem and, during a crawl around, under the car, saw it right there on the tire that my problem was under inflation.
Did bringing the tire pressure up to 90 PSI solve the hard turning problem…….nope, but it sure added some power to the 4 cylinder engine and helped with the steering difficulty.

Maybe addition of power steering is a future consideration. But I think it will wait until I put in A/C, power seats, gps, auto dimming headlights, power, disc brakes and repower it with a 440 CI engine……..or not🤪.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

9 minutes ago, sleeve-valve said:

My 1921 Stearns-Knight has the 248 ci 4 cyl 57hp sleeve-valve engine, 125 inch wheelbase. It is comfortable up to about 35mph. It rode like a rigid frame Harley until I greased the springs, now its much smoother but no luxury lacht from the 60s. Steering was a workout until I removed the grease fitting from the steering box and filled it with steering box lube, now it's easy while moving but still a bit tough when stopped. It has the 3 speed with no synchros, shift to second early, if done right it almost pulls the shifter into second. Follow soon into third, usually easier. Downshifting to second is tough, if I haven't driven it in a while it takes time to re-learn. I don't drive when headlights are needed since they are less brilliant than my 4Dcell mag light. I really enjoy it for what it is!

I still use 600W in the transmission and differential of my 27 Willys Knight. But. I have disassembled, and refilled the steering gear box with CV joint lubricant. Maybe the improvement in steering is only mental, but that works for me too.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Ed you have way way more experience than me driving.  But I'll take a video of downshifting the Stearns from 3rd to 2nd and 2nd to first with zero grind.   In fact,  I try very hard to be in first before the car comes to a complete stop, as it makes the shift much easier when the transmission is hot.

 

The key is timing the rev to the correct RPM on the downshift.  And that takes practice on that car.   First time in a car, even for an experienced driver is an adventure I would imagine.

Kinda wonder about this downshift stuff. My DB Roadster is in the higher gear until it comes to a complete stop…….period! 
My Willys Knight is a tad more forgiving but it doesn’t have  a synchromesh transmission either and second to low is iffy, but possible. Third to low…..no way unless the speed of the car is equal to the speed you’d normally use low gear for. What this means to say is that there is no using a lower gear to reduce speed. Be going the speed, and the transmission will downshift.

Jack

[velostigmat]

This might be a trifle declasse, but I've happily driven a Model T Ford roadster since I was 14. The old motor was unrestored and very tired, but it could do an honest 40mph on level ground all day. The car handled beautifully at about 25-35mph. It could maybe do 45, but the brakes and steering definitely could not keep up at that speed.

In terms of handling, it is the most bicycle-like car you'll ever drive. Open Ts are amazingly nimble in gridlock--one time I drove through Los Angeles during rush hour--but they're the sort of car where you drive looking two signals ahead and drive defensively. They're also pretty reliable when sorted out, just most aren't. I also had a tired Model A coupe as a daily driver for a year, and I found the T easier and more enjoyable to drive, but the A is a night-and-day difference in terms of solidity.

Edited November 1, 2023 by velostigmat (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, Jack Bennett said:

You are right in one respect, and I am right in another. The tires are not 21 inches, rather they are 32”X4”. But, the inflation pressure, which is on the inside of the tire, and not the outside, so that I can take a photo,  is 90 psi. I always thought. that 35 or 40 psi was about right, but my shoulder replacement told me it was wrong. The car rode like it had no suspension at all, and, even with the bus sized steering wheel, was impossible to turn when stopped. I posted. the problem to the forum, and I was told to replace the king pin bushings with roller bearings. This seems like a good, and doable solution, but it just didn’t seem to be something a person would do to a new 1923 Dodge Roadster. 
So I “got down” on the problem and, during a crawl around, under the car, saw it right there on the tire that my problem was under inflation.
Did bringing the tire pressure up to 90 PSI solve the hard turning problem…….nope, but it sure added some power to the 4 cylinder engine and helped with the steering difficulty.

Maybe addition of power steering is a future consideration. But I think it will wait until I put in A/C, power seats, gps, auto dimming headlights, power, disc brakes and repower it with a 440 CI engine……..or not🤪.

Jack

The tires are not 21 inches, rather they are 32”X4”. But, the inflation pressure, which is on the inside of the tire, and not the outside, so that I can take a photo,  is 90 psi. I always thought. that 35 or 40 psi was about right, but my shoulder replacement told me it was wrong.…………And I was wrong again. I inflated the tires to about 50 PSI, not 90 PSI, as I said PSI, that must be what the recommended inflation pressure is as stated on the back side of  the tire…….but it still rides like a log wagon.

Jack

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

Kinda wonder about this downshift stuff. My DB Roadster is in the higher gear until it comes to a complete stop…….period! 
My Willys Knight is a tad more forgiving but it doesn’t have  a synchromesh transmission either and second to low is iffy, but possible. Third to low…..no way unless the speed of the car is equal to the speed you’d normally use low gear for. What this means to say is that there is no using a lower gear to reduce speed. Be going the speed, and the transmission will downshift.

Jack

 

Jack,  try this and see if it works.  You have to try to time the engine RPMs to the spinning of the transmission.    So for example,  if your car is very comfortable at 1200 RPM going 15mph in 2nd gear,   then when you are downshifting from third to second,  you need to be going slow enough for the downshift to be appropriate and rev the engine to 1200:

 

1.  Traveling in 3rd at 25 mph.

2.  Taking a turn, where you slow to 15 mph.

3.  At or before 15,  put the transmission in neutral.

4.  At 15 or lower,  rev the engine (I typically rev a little higher than I need).  You are still in netural with the clutch pedal up.

5.  While the engine RPMs are still elevated, push the clutch in and slide the lever in to 2nd.

 

If the engine goes back to idle before you slide to second the gears will grind.  This is because your engine is turning at 600 while the transmission shaft is turning at 1200.

 

It takes a lot of practice on the individual car.  I have seen guys where they barely rev the engine and you don't even realize they are double clutching.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yep the A instruction manual pretty much describes same.  They are specific on when double clutch is recomended and when one should or should not downshift.

 

Practice makes perfect and each car is different, even if it is the same model car to car..

[Walt G]

All of the people here who may take the time to read these comments and own post war cars with automatic transmissions or standard with Synchromesh are probably shaking their heads and thinking " so these guys enjoy that?"  " why"?  Same reason we like running boards, headlamps mounted on a bar, bumpers that are flat pieces of steel 3 or 4 inches tall and held in place by big bolts at each end and flat panes of glass in the windows.  Yeah I am "old school".  ( taught in an old school made of brick and mortar built in the 1920s  for over 30 years) 🥸

[Angelfish]

I misread the title of this thread, first glance I thought it was asking Where can I get firsthand experience driving these old cars.

 

The oldest thing I've driven is my 1949 Ford F-1.  Near as we can tell, my direct line ancestors bought the first car they ever owned in 1947, a long awaited brand new 1947 Ford sedan.   My Dad would have been 11.  They then proceeded to drive it many thousands of miles across the southwest.

 

But I would like to learn more about these older cars, especially how to drive them.  I have an abstract knowledge of priming, spark advance, hand cranking.  But if it came to practice the results would likely be unsatisfactory. 

[60FlatTop]

I guess I will go with the safe comment.

 

 

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Jack,  try this and see if it works.  You have to try to time the engine RPMs to the spinning of the transmission.    So for example,  if your car is very comfortable at 1200 RPM going 15mph in 2nd gear,   then when you are downshifting from third to second,  you need to be going slow enough for the downshift to be appropriate and rev the engine to 1200:

 

1.  Traveling in 3rd at 25 mph.

2.  Taking a turn, where you slow to 15 mph.

3.  At or before 15,  put the transmission in neutral.

4.  At 15 or lower,  rev the engine (I typically rev a little higher than I need).  You are still in netural with the clutch pedal up.

5.  While the engine RPMs are still elevated, push the clutch in and slide the lever in to 2nd.

 

If the engine goes back to idle before you slide to second the gears will grind.  This is because your engine is turning at 600 while the transmission shaft is turning at 1200.

 

It takes a lot of practice on the individual car.  I have seen guys where they barely rev the engine and you don't even realize they are double clutching.

Hi alsancle. This will work perfectly in the Willys because the transmission is geared to accommodate the six cylinder engine and added weight of the body. But, the Dodge Roadster is more of an open road car than a stop and go car. Getting to my house from the roads along Puget Sound entails going through the little, historic, town of Steilacoom. Steilacoom has no stop lights!

Rather, it has six successive stop signs spaced at one block intervals. The Main Street, leading North-South, through Steilacoom leaves the coastline, at waters level, and climbs up the embankment forming the shoreline for about a mile, at an incline of about 30 degrees.
For the Willys, going from 1st to 2nd gear, right after leaving the stop sign, and staying there during the drive to the next stop sign, a block uphill away. works great. 

The Dodge is a different story though because the transmission is geared so low in 1st, and so high in second, that the car can’t achieve any speed above a crawl in 1st, and chokes down, on the steep hill, in 2nd. While the noise and protestations of the Dodge are my greatest worry, the uncertainty that the Dodge is even moving causes following cars to instinctively close the distance between us.

I could go on for reams here but I think you get the idea…….the Willys is a good, all around car. The Dodge is a flatland car, and is totally comfortable at 35 MPH, in 3rd gear, on a flat, unpaved road. 
And, the Dodge having a upside down gear shift pattern makes smooth, spontaneous, gear shifts nearly impossible.

I will save going down the hill in the Dodge for another thread. 
Jack

 

[28 Chrysler]

Gus from 1925

As mentioned above about shifting, this way of shifting works well.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

1 hour ago, Angelfish said:

I misread the title of this thread, first glance I thought it was asking Where can I get firsthand experience driving these old cars.

 

The oldest thing I've driven is my 1949 Ford F-1.  Near as we can tell, my direct line ancestors bought the first car they ever owned in 1947, a long awaited brand new 1947 Ford sedan.   My Dad would have been 11.  They then proceeded to drive it many thousands of miles across the southwest.

 

But I would like to learn more about these older cars, especially how to drive them.  I have an abstract knowledge of priming, spark advance, hand cranking.  But if it came to practice the results would likely be unsatisfactory. 

Attention required but not impossible to master.  I taught Mrs. Mack how to drive the A in 30 minutes or so.  She got hang of it quickly with confidence and need to re-acclimate due to infrequent driving being her biggest challenges.

[arcticbuicks]

since my teen years of first starting to drive .......quickly caught on to driving all sorts of old cars and trucks pre 1930s etc......having driven may trucks with no syncro......pretty easy to just learn when the gears will mesh and other than starting off in first gear ......i do not even double clutch or bother with the clutch use in higher gears......and to down shift ......just bump the throttle up a little and you get used to knowing when the gears will mesh without grinding

[pmhowe]

The procedure that ArcticBuicks describes above is something I have wanted to learn, but not on my car. I think it is called “Floating” the gears. There are numerous YouTube examples of doing it with trucks.

 

Years ago, I was driving home when the cable connecting the clutch pedal to the clutch broke. I thumbed home to pick up my tools.  The gentleman who picked me up asked why I was thumbing. When I explained he laughed. He had one leg missing and drove his manual shift car by floating the gears. I was totally impressed. I made his day and he made mine.

[jpage]

My only experience is in my 1928 Model A pickup. The cab was quite tight, not made for a heavy or tall person, but they say folks were smaller then. It drove relatively easily, the tranny had to be double clutched on occasion but shifted well if done slowly and at the right speed. Brakes, if kept up, were adequate at 45 but a little dicey at higher speeds and you had to allow for stopping length. Acceleration was pretty good, and the lightness of a p/u added to that. A good deal of compression did allow for quick slowdown at normal speeds. The Model A tends to be a little noisy, especially the open versions and the truck being so light, and with the narrow tires, had a real tendency to jump around on rough roads and tight curves and wet roads if driving a little too fast. It wasn't a speed demon, 45 -50 being the best top speeds, but it did prove to be quite reliable. I did have a couple of minor breakdowns, but nothing that couldn't be repaired roadside. The Model A is not a car for the large modern highways but is a real pleasure to drive on the slower 2 lane roads. The original bulb type headlamps, on a dark night, on a very dark road, can be adequate but they don't illuminate very far and may be hard to spot by oncoming traffic. With old cars, one must realize and drive them like old cars, not like the modern cars of today! The Model A is also a car that is easy to repair with general mechanical knowledge, but as with many hobbies, the more you know and understand about the vehicle you have will add to the amount of enjoyment you can get from your vehicle. If correctly restored or repaired and driven properly ,the late 20's Model A, or any A, can be a very drivable and enjoyable car and a car that can and will last a lifetime and beyond! they are a very good first car for someone just getting into the hobby, both from a mechanical, driveability and  financial standpoint. 

 

 

 

[Grimy]

Hey, all you Paragons of Studliness who insist on floating the shifts as a regular practice, do it on your cars, not on mine.  My view is that the clutch is there for a reason, and I use it for its intended purpose.  My 1918, 1922, 1925, and 1930 cars all have crash boxes, and I am adept in their use, and so is my lady friend.  The only time I was forced to float shifts was 40 years ago at the base of the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge in the evening rush hour when the clutch gave out in my DD 1975 Datsun pickup with a 4-speed--and on an upslope, no less.  And I had 15 miles to home including 7 miles on that rush-hour bridge.  At each of the frequent rush hour stops, I shut the engine off with a lurch as the clutch remained engaged.  Started in first gear with a lurch for same reason.  As traffic eventually eased, I was able to float 1-2 several times, then 1-2-3, then (finally) 1-2-3-4.  It was not amusing under those circumstances.

[28 Chrysler]

Shifting without the clutch is no big deal to the clutch or transmission if done right.

I did it most of the time in my 160,000+ mile 1962 1/2 ton Dodge PU. never had a problem and gave it away with nearly 300,000 on it.

[arcticbuicks]

Yes true ,shifting without the use of the clutch is perfectly fine if a non syncro transmission .....it is technically ok for a sycro transmission except if you miss a shift and grind ......then the syncro gears can be damaged .

I still drive my dodge syncro diesel 25 years now without using clutch ( and by that I mean after first gear once moving ) but do risk damage if I was to miss a shift and grind.

there are so many comments and myths about double clutching and not to downshift a old transmission style car lol.

 

So much so that there are myth buster videos etc.

fact is ......listen to or read from professional instructors and read from manufactures etc .

There is enough information on the past vintage ones too.

Double clutching is not necessary except for down shifting with a non syncro car or truck .

Some argue that the car and truck are different ......hog wash .

Some say do not downshift a old car with non syncro transmission ever  .......lol ......

there is nothing magic or mysterious about vintage non syncro transmission shifting ......except maybe some like to boast about their abilities to do so ......as if we never can .....like they can ........it is really as easy to learn .......like ......as when to double flush the toilet ....

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here's an article right out of history, showing

how people used their cars.  In this survey from 1928,

90% of the people said they rarely exceeded 45 m.p.h.

This shows why cars of that time had the gearings they did,

and why their top speeds were slower:

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[marcapra]

I have very little experience in pre-30 cars.  I have never driven one, but my old friend Bob gave me a ride once in his 1908 Maxwell touring car in the streets of Pasadena.  What I remember was how high we were from the road, and the crash box transmission.  then, I went through a Model T craze where I was scouting for one to buy.  This one guy had a 26 coupe that was missing the front part of the floorboard, so you could see the engine.  It was also missing the seat, so we had to sit on apple crates.  The ride felt very primitive and uncomfortable, and the engine was so loud, you had to shout to the driver to be heard.  I remember his gunning the engine speeding up to about 40 as we were coming to a stop light.  I was scared at this, but at the last moment, he shifted the transmission to reverse which did a good job stopping the car in time.  AT least it wasn't a bit boring.  

Edited November 3, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history)