Are Chopped/modified cars from 70-90 years ago AACA eligible?

[CChinn]

I have read in a few recent forum posts of cars from the 1930s and maybe earlier which had their rear ends chopped off and customized or sedans converted into woodies (see recent thread on 1936 Chevy woodie).  It made me think and start this post to not highjack the other threads. These cars were original from the factory, but were quickly customized or modified a long time ago on a mass basis and some have survived 80+ years. What would happen if such a car showed up at an AACA event where the owner (and maybe the judges) were not aware of this history because it occurred so long ago?  This is in contrast to the hot rods and customized cars since the 50s where there is good documentation and enough knowledgeable surviving members. Any thoughts/opinions?

Edited October 26, 2023 by CChinn (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Don't know how AACA would handle for judging but lots of lower priced cars were cut up into pick up trucks in period as well as big cars like Sr. Packards - sometimes they became tow trucks.  They are certainly interesting at the very least.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[CChinn]

I like those old modified pickup trucks or tow trucks from a long time ago as well. It’s what one had to do during the hard times during the depression or living/working on a farm or rural area back then. My 53 Packard had a significant modification when its original Packard engine was swapped out for a SBC by the person who restored it. So I have no issue with modified cars. As an AACA member I fully understand the mission of the club and would never bring this car to a show. I have with my other fully original cars. It may just be a perception on my part, but adherence to the originality standard may be applied more strictly to the post war than pre war cars. Again, just a perception on my part. I’m sure AACA leadership will state the standard applies to all makes from all years. But the reality may be that there is a fondness for something that may have been done many, many, many years ago that was done in good taste and has survived the test of time 

[arcticbuicks]

I wonder about rebodied cars like big dollar packards etc that have been done up ,and they are on sites like this ,they are not even close to the original car that they were ,nicely done yes and big money .....but do they qualify and how ?

Edited October 26, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Bloo]

 

 

 

All kidding aside, I think I know the answer to this one, but I'll let others with closer knowledge respond. I will say that I doubt a perfect system exists in this club or anywhere else....

 

 

 

 

[CChinn]

Bloo,  I know by posting this I have potentially opened a can of worms or Pandora’s box and this topic may we’ll have been thoroughly discussed/debated in the past well before I became a member or found this forum. Just noting an observation I have made and also an opportunity for me to be better educated and help educate others like me. Hope this remains civil and thoughtful 

[alsancle]

It is actually simple.  A car modified or rebodied in period by a known body builder or coachbuilder should be completely fine.  Even a  prewar car modified postwar by a known coachbuilder should be fine.   I know you are asking what the AACA rules are, and I can't answer that.   But the rules should allow it.

 

 

[arcticbuicks]

That makes sense ,are there any recent rebodied ones in a high dollar car ? In the past I have seen some cars not just restored ,but where say nearly an entire body was remade for the car ,kind of goes way beyond a restoration ?

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

That makes sense ,are there any recent rebodied ones in a high dollar car ? In the past I have seen some cars not just restored ,but where say nearly an entire body was remade for the car ,kind of goes way beyond a restoration ?

Modern re-bodies are rejected by the best shows.   The CCCA puts them in a "special" class.  Not sure how the AACA handles them.

[Steve Moskowitz]

No can of worms for AACA.  Most of you have it right.  Since we have only a short period of time to judge a car we do not decode serial numbers.  We also have to judge virtually any car ever manufactured from the earlies of days to 1999 next year.  That makes it near impossible to get into a thorough investigation of every car on the field.  

 

The AACA guidelines state:  The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored o the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer.  So if someone shows up with a rebodied Packard and it is a style that was offered by Packard or a coachbuilder of the day then yes it would be suitable.  If someone shows up with a car that was rebodied incorrectly then that would be disqualified.  An example from many years ago was a stunning restoration of a early Packard brass car but the owner installed a body that was never offered.  Once that info was determined AACA asked for the awards back.  There are some exceptions to this policy in the classes for prototypes, movie cars, etc. but this is the general rule.

[CChinn]

Thanks AJ. I know in the pre war periods the manufacturer would build the chassis and engine and then a coach builder would construct the body for the owner. Beautiful cars were the result. And that was the norm for the time. I guess I must be referring to the changes outside of this system if it even occurred. Although Steve Mack referenced the cars that were converted to trucks or tow trucks. I see that Steve M has just replied. Look forward to seeing his take. 

[Fordy]

9 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

a body that was never offered.

I guess the onus would be on the owner to prove otherwise? There are body styles offered in Australia that differed significantly from what was on offer in the US - if one of these cars found its way back there, a lot of people would say "it was never offered". Some period sales literature would provide confirmation.

Steve

[CChinn]

Thanks for all of the replies 

[Steve Moskowitz]

37 minutes ago, Fordy said:

I guess the onus would be on the owner to prove otherwise? There are body styles offered in Australia that differed significantly from what was on offer in the US - if one of these cars found its way back there, a lot of people would say "it was never offered". Some period sales literature would provide confirmation.

Steve

100% CORRECT.  In the case of Australia we have had a couple of examples of that happening.  I particularly remember a very nice pick up that was not offered in the US.  Owner had documentation.

[8E45E]

7 minutes ago, CChinn said:

Thanks for all of the replies 

I'm NOT going down this rabbit hole!

 

Craig

[Tph479]

6 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

No can of worms for AACA.  Most of you have it right.  Since we have only a short period of time to judge a car we do not decode serial numbers.  We also have to judge virtually any car ever manufactured from the earlies of days to 1999 next year.  That makes it near impossible to get into a thorough investigation of every car on the field.  

 

The AACA guidelines state:  The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored o the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer.  So if someone shows up with a rebodied Packard and it is a style that was offered by Packard or a coachbuilder of the day then yes it would be suitable.  If someone shows up with a car that was rebodied incorrectly then that would be disqualified.  An example from many years ago was a stunning restoration of a early Packard brass car but the owner installed a body that was never offered.  Once that info was determined AACA asked for the awards back.  There are some exceptions to this policy in the classes for prototypes, movie cars, etc. but this is the general rule.

The Packard that Bob restored is a very, very nice car. Did he ever give the award back?  All the old car guys in the area knew the story and thought it was funny. Too bad the car is gone from the area. It did look nice sitting in the lobby of the hotel at the auction last year.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

The pick up/tow truck conversions I mentioned were often done when the vehicle had completed its first life as a passenger vehicle.  To me these sit in that grey area of being representative of a point in time, like a period hot rod that has historic interest but is not an AACA correct car.

 

 

 

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I've heard some re-bodied Model A roadsters have won AACA judging but they can't win the MARC or MAFCA judging

[Steve_Mack_CT]

5 hours ago, Dave Mellor NJ said:

I've heard some re-bodied Model A roadsters have won AACA judging but they can't win the MARC or MAFCA judging

A little astray but what an odd market.  A complete unrestored A roadster has a market value nominally higher than a Brookville unit but they continue to move them like hotcakes.  A large number of these steel replica bodies, A and 32, had sold signs on them at Hershey again this year.  Yet a lot of restorers and rodders alike do not hold those in much higher regard than the fiberglass cars.

 

I thought the early Ford market slowdown might impact these guys, if it has it didn't look like it earlier this month.

 

Dave you probably know this but A judges can tell the mfg. Minor differences w the Brookville cars good as they may be.  

[8E45E]

Isn't a Brewster a rebodied Ford?

 

Craig

[Steve Moskowitz]

9 hours ago, Tph479 said:

The Packard that Bob restored is a very, very nice car. Did he ever give the award back?  All the old car guys in the area knew the story and thought it was funny. Too bad the car is gone from the area. It did look nice sitting in the lobby of the hotel at the auction last year.

I am not sure if he gave the award back or not (pre-date my employment).  I liked Bob and yes, it did look great in the lobby. His garage was just up the road from the Ohlendorf's and of course he had a CDO so I had to like him.

[Leif in Calif]

11 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

The pick up/tow truck conversions I mentioned were often done when the vehicle had completed its first life as a passenger vehicle.  To me these sit in that grey area of being representative of a point in time, like a period hot rod that has historic interest but is not an AACA correct car.

 

 

 

My favorite: Service truck based on Model A Duesenberg

[arcticbuicks]

I will accept the ban and drive that !

[CChinn]

And it’s got black walls!😀

[Matt Harwood]

We've had lengthy conversations about this car and it's place on the hierarchy:

 

 

1940 Buick Roadmaster Model 76 converted into a pickup and used as a fire chief's car on the factory grounds.

 

One, is it actually modified? It was built by the factory, albeit from a coupe.

 

Two, as a 70 Series Buick, but not with a production body, is it still a Full Classic (the CCCA ostensibly bans cars with inauthentic bodywork)?

 

My opinion is that yes, it is a Full Classic with factory custom bodywork, but obviously there's room for discussion. This car lives in a somewhat gray area.

[edinmass]

The Buick pick up is very nice, as I was parked near it at Amelia..........I think the only issue is CCCA won't take it because it's a truck. Otherwise I expect any club would accept it as is. He had great history on it from new. 

[Walt G]

The late Don Carlson of Ct. had in his collection a Packard "service truck" tow truck converted ( I believe) pre WWII when the car was about 5 to 10 years old. Still in its original pre war paint and doors lettered to note the service station. I also think the car was done here on long island in Centerport, NY for Bob Bohaty who had a service station and was also a car collector.   It was a limousine that was cut off just aft of the division window. Where is it now?  It was never restored but remained as the conversion as a service car until at least 30 years ago.

More memories - gotta stay off the forums, to much information flowing in my head . Just was asked to write a story about the Wallace Bird auction in Oyster Bay and one of the cars that was there - yes I attended that auction - was about 12 years old and remember it vividly.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[Shootey]

The 1940 Buick Estate Wagon from the Wallace Bird estate currently resides at Vintage Motors of Sarasota FL. The proprietor has much history on that car. 

[46 woodie]

 I would like to see the A.A.C.A. allow a "Historic Hot Rod Class" as the Pebble Beach Concours, Amelia Island Concours and others allow. If race cars are historic in playing a part in our hobby, we can't deny that historic hot rod's from the '40s, '50s are also a part of automotive history. 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

We've had lengthy conversations about this car and it's place on the hierarchy:

 

 

1940 Buick Roadmaster Model 76 converted into a pickup and used as a fire chief's car on the factory grounds.

 

One, is it actually modified? It was built by the factory, albeit from a coupe.

 

Two, as a 70 Series Buick, but not with a production body, is it still a Full Classic (the CCCA ostensibly bans cars with inauthentic bodywork)?

 

My opinion is that yes, it is a Full Classic with factory custom bodywork, but obviously there's room for discussion. This car lives in a somewhat gray area.

It was built by the factory, then hands down, its authentic.  Same applies to those 6(?) 1949 Oldsmobile panel deliveries for 'in-house' factory use.   Remember, some GM station wagons at the time were not Fisher Body, but made by outside vendors, including Hercules, Ionia Body, and much later, convertibles converted by American Sunroof Corp.

 

And we can also mention the 1948 Nash tow trucks that were restricted to Nash dealers only.

 

Craig

Edited October 27, 2023 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

 I would like to see the A.A.C.A. allow a "Historic Hot Rod Class" as the Pebble Beach Concours, Amelia Island Concours and others allow. If race cars are historic in playing a part in our hobby, we can't deny that historic hot rod's from the '40s, '50s are also a part of automotive history. 

Perhaps they represent a history of what somebody did to the car.

Terry

[61polara]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:02 PM, 46 woodie said:

 I would like to see the A.A.C.A. allow a "Historic Hot Rod Class" as the Pebble Beach Concours, Amelia Island Concours and others allow. If race cars are historic in playing a part in our hobby, we can't deny that historic hot rod's from the '40s, '50s are also a part of automotive history. 

I believe AACA had "Historic Hot Rod Class" for a short while about 25 years ago.  If I remember correctly, the qualifications were much like the current historic race car class, in that there must be documentation that the conversion was done more than 25 years ago and it must be restored to reflect the car in the period documented.  Documenting the car was the problem for the owners.  Historic race cars must have documentation that the car was actually raced.  Generally there is some documentation available in the press or particular speedway documentation.  I believe the Hot Rod Class was discontinued because no one ever qualified for it for lack of period documentation.  

 

UPDATE:  Steve has clarified below that this was discussed but was never created as a class in AACA.  Thanks for the correction Steve.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by 61polara
Additional information (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

I was facing this issue 9 years ago when I purchased this 1931 Chrysler CD8 Roadster. I had heard about the car from my Dad in the 70's and 80's, a friend of his owned it and modified it in the early 50's, but the car had gone missing for about 50 years. Dad's mechanic friend had bought it in a scrap yard, rebuilt it with a 1947 Cadillac V8, LaSalle transmission and Auburn dual ratio rear end, chopped top mechanism and windshield by 1.5", Electroline (aftermarket) headlights, 1935 International truck bumpers, '32 Plymouth door handles, '32 Auburn front hubs, 35 Auburn rear hubs, 15" wire wheels in front, 16" artillary wheels in back. Classic 1950's hotrodding aproach, use what ever is avaIlable and compatible. Body at time was good and gloss black suited it. A classic 1950's hotrod.

 

When I found it in a barn in 1914, the drive train was with it (engine and transmission sitting at back of barn), in overall very rough condition. The decision I faced was whether to (1) rebuilt it as it was in early 50's hotrod mode, or (2) rebuild using a modern power plant (318/automatic) or (3) rebuild it something close to factory. Needless to say, no option would be cheap as Cadillac engine was in need of full rebuild, and frame had been modified in a manner making it weak and subject to twisting. I decided to rebuild the roadster to 1931 Chrysler CD8 factory specs within reason (I found a rough sedan donor car), but have always felt any of the 3 options should have been OK with most clubs.

 

I did manage to find some photos of the car from early 50's with Dad's friend sitting with it, and at a car show in 1966, shortly before it was "barned". Picture in primer is as I found it in fall 2014with a set of correct CD8 headlights I purchased at the time. Ironically, I paid $400 on eBay for the CD8 headlights, and sold the Electrolines without lenses for $650!

Edited October 29, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[TTR]

1 hour ago, 61polara said:

I believe AACA had "Historic Hot Rod Class" for a short while about 25 years ago.  If I remember correctly, the qualifications were much like the current historic race car class, in that there must be documentation that the conversion was done more than 25 years ago and it must be restored to reflect the car in the period documented.  Documenting the car was the problem for the owners.  Historic race cars must have documentation that the car was actually raced.  Generally there is some documentation available in the press or particular speedway documentation.  I believe the Hot Rod Class was discontinued because no one ever qualified for it for lack of period documentation.  

Having owned (& still do/drive/use) a period correct Hot Rod originally made in to one sometime prior to 1952 (and I do have some documentation/evidence of this), I didn't attempt to reconstruct it to that configuration, but after acquiring it (or what was left of it) in 1989, rebuilt it (during 1990/-91) into what I preferred while being true to its heritage(?) and using/utilizing only components/parts/technology available at "that period" (early-to-mid 1950s).

 

OTOH, I don't show my (personal) cars nor care about approval or other validations (in form of trinkets/trophies/etc) from others, so having a "classification" for any of them by some event or organization is irrelevant for me. 

Sort of like what Groucho said about not wanting to be a member* of a club or organization ... 😉

 

* I'm actually a member of several (and been for decades), but since most club activities don't really align with my interests, I'm not very "active" in them. 

[Steve Moskowitz]

23 hours ago, 61polara said:

I believe AACA had "Historic Hot Rod Class" for a short while about 25 years ago.  If I remember correctly, the qualifications were much like the current historic race car class, in that there must be documentation that the conversion was done more than 25 years ago and it must be restored to reflect the car in the period documented.  Documenting the car was the problem for the owners.  Historic race cars must have documentation that the car was actually raced.  Generally there is some documentation available in the press or particular speedway documentation.  I believe the Hot Rod Class was discontinued because no one ever qualified for it for lack of period documentation.  

Dave, we did not!  It was proposed but caused such a furor with some regions especially down your way that it was never approved.  First it was communicated horribly and second it was not well thought out.  People became apoplectic over it and did not understand the class.

 

I was at Pebble in 97 when they showed the three period hot rods.  Personally, I was thrilled to see the cars as I was a avid hot rod guy in high school and these cars were all featured in magazines.  Ken Gross has written the rules for showing period hot rods for Pebble and they are done well.  It is still a very touchy subject with our membership and so it has not been tackled again.  

[TTR]

While also a lifelong vintage hot rod enthusiast (and owner), I personally don’t think any non-factory/-dealer sanctioned modifications, especially “aftermarket” hot rodding of cars, no matter how (automotive) historically significant, should be eligible for any “traditional” concours showing, let alone judging, but knowing what egos & $$$s were behind the forcing of creation a class for such at P.B., etc, it is/was kind of inevitable and I wouldn’t be surprised if someday we see customized/decked out 1970s cruisin’ van conversions with mural paint jobs, ceiling mirrors, disco balls & waterbeds in a featured class of their own on that 18th fairway (not that there’s anything wrong with such vans. Just not my cup of …).

Edited October 30, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[8E45E]

6 hours ago, TTR said:

While also a lifelong vintage hot rod enthusiast (and owner), I personally don’t think any non-factory/-dealer sanctioned modifications, especially “aftermarket” hot rodding of cars, no matter how (automotive) historically significant, should be eligible for any “traditional” concours showing, let alone judging, but knowing what egos & $$$s were behind the forcing of creation a class for such at P.B., etc, it is/was kind of inevitable and I wouldn’t be surprised if someday we see customized/decked out 1970s cruisin’ van conversions with mural paint jobs, ceiling mirrors, disco balls & waterbeds in a featured class of their own on that 18th fairway (not that there’s anything wrong with such vans. Just not my cup of …).

Like big rigs which are sold 'cab & chassis only' to have a third-party builder to install a flatdeck or box of the back, GM, Ford, and Dodge sold "blank canvas" vans for outfitters to transform into sinbins in the late 1970's.  The 'Gaucho', Ford 'Cruisin' Wagon' and Dodge 'Street Van' were basically cargo vans with the high-performance drivetrain already installed and either the dealers or the buyer installed the finishing touches.

 

Craig