How can this car be an alleged "AACA Grand National Winner"?

[joe_padavano]

53 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

I think you missed my point. As I indicated, I don't know anything about the car in question. I am not suggeting that it was built with the options that it is listed as having. I neither know nor care about what options were or were not available on a "W31". I simply pointed out the judging rules. For AACA Judging, if an option was avaiable for any car of any brand for the year of production, they are acceptable under AACA judging. Unless you were sitting at the assembly point for the entire production run, it is impossible to know what may have been manufactured despite it not being officially offered by the manufacturer. A lot of things that were not supposed to be available actually got manufactured back in the day. The rules are not too specific because AACA can't know every combination that was built for every manufacturer for every year. Arguing about different options for specific models is best left to the marque clubs.

And again, those options were NOT available. They were mutually exclusive. The car is almost certainly a clone.

Edited May 10, 2023 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

32 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

Does Oldsmobile not have a way to verify how a car was built? Pontiac has PHS and Ford has Marti. This takes away any question. If not then as in any auction, buyer beware. Does the legitimacy of an AACA GN award effect the value of this particular car, I doubt it. Joe, I understand that this type of vehicle is near and dear to you and I have learned a bit about them through this thread, and I thank you and appreciate your knowledge.  But I dont think the guy plopping $100K+ could care less if it won or not. I do see your point as far as originality but it is also my understanding of the judging guidelines as I pointed out earlier and was re-inforced by Avanit Bill and Mchinson, that to me I would say this is 'over restored'. Adding factory appropriate accessories are not grounds for a point loss unless they are done badly. No different than adding a tissue holder on a 57 Chevy that may have not had one when it was new. Or even upgrading the internals of motor for better drivability that is not going to be seen. I would guess that there are and have been more than this car that have won major AACA awards that are not EXACTLY as they were when they rolled off the assembly line.

 

Maybe the new owner will be or become an AACA member and we can find out first hand what is up with the anomalies of this vehicle.

Sadly, the records for Oldsmobiles prior to 1977 do not exist, except for cars originally built or sold in Canada. All W-31s were built in Lansing, MI. These were paper records, and Olds just threw them away. The Pontiac records were on their way to the dump when they were saved by people who started PHS.

 

As for the people with more money than brains, I have no problem separating fools from their cash. One would hope that if a buyer were dropping the expected sale price on a car like this, that the person would perform a little due diligence, but not my problem. I'm with Glenn. The issue is using alleged AACA awards to justify the provenance of a one-of-none car. The overrestoring and loading up every option in the book when a car gets "restored" is a different issue. My problem here is the use of supposed awards to legitimize a clone.

[MCHinson]

54 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

And again, those options were NOT available. They were mutually exclusive. The car is almost certainly a clone.

I don't know much about Oldsmobiles. I am not that interested in that era cars. I don't really care who sells it or who buys it. I realize you are not happy with the AACA rules. I realize this car being offered at auction as it is upsets you, but you don't seem to be paying attention to what the the rules are for AACA Judging. If those options were offered by Oldsmobile on any Oldsmobile of that particular year, for AACA judging purposes, those options are acceptable for judging on ANY Oldsmobile of that year. I don't make the rules. I am only advising you what they are. AACA can judge a car. AACA does not have anything to do with the auction... and that is assuming the car actually received the Grand National Award, and that is assuming the car was equipped in the same manner when it was judged years ago. As far as auctions, buyer beware is always the best thing to remember... 

[avgwarhawk]

On 5/8/2023 at 5:46 PM, joe_padavano said:

Yes, I am absolutely certain of the points I made. The "special order" argument is the go-to excuse for one-of-none cars, but never is the special order claim backed up by any documentation. And contrary to what people like to say on line, the "you could get anything you wanted" claim is flat untrue. GM had to warranty these cars and support them in the parts and service networks. Any substitutions and changes were completely documented in the dealer service bulletins. As for the suggestion that the car was altered after winning the award, I considered that. While power brakes are pretty easy to retrofit, factory air conditioning is not. The A-body A/C requires completely different openings in the firewall, along with substantial, invasive changes to the car. It isn't impossible, but it it highly unlikely. And more to the point, the whole reason why these features were not available with the W31 package is because the engine was specifically designed for NHRA stock class drag racing. The cam did not produce enough manifold vacuum to operate the power brakes or the vacuum-actuated HVAC system (the heater-only system was cable-operated, not vacuum-operated).

 

 

 

 

 

All valid facts and observations.  Since this Olds W31 was manufactured for drag racing...weight reduction was on top of the list.   Not installing A/C and power brakes makes an awful lot of sense(besides a cam that could not provide enough vacuum to run A/C or power brakes).   

 

[Avanti Bill]

Perhaps the chief judge could weigh in on this topic, it is an interesting issue and I think we would all like more clarity.

[TAKerry]

34 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

All valid facts and observations.  Since this Olds W31 was manufactured for drag racing...weight reduction was on top of the list.   Not installing A/C and power brakes makes an awful lot of sense(besides a cam that could not provide enough vacuum to run A/C or power brakes).   

 

I would doubt this car was made for 'drag racing'. I would suspect that it more likely was built for pure performance that one could have by simply checking the right box on the order sheet. Also a streetable vehicle that one could drive on a daily basis if wanted or needed. If you could take it to the track on a weekend for a couple of runs then that much the better. And I would bet that more than one were bought for that reason. For a car that was solely manufactured with the purpose of going fast down a track the factory lightweight cars of the early/mid sixties come to mind.

[joe_padavano]

If I had to guess, it would seem that the most plausible explanation is that when the car did win AACA awards in 2009, it was a very nice Cutlass S with 350, A/C, and power brakes. A car like that in number one condition might bring $25K-30K at auction. Since that point, adding the hood, wing, aluminum intake, and stripes (probably another $10K-20K investment with labor and paint) to make it a "W31" increases value to the estimated $150K-175K using the AACA awards as "proof".

[TAKerry]

1 minute ago, joe_padavano said:

If I had to guess, it would seem that the most plausible explanation is that when the car did win AACA awards in 2009, it was a very nice Cutlass S with 350, A/C, and power brakes. A car like that in number one condition might bring $25K-30K at auction. Since that point, adding the hood, wing, aluminum intake, and stripes (probably another $10K-20K investment with labor and paint) to make it a "W31" increases value to the estimated $150K-175K using the AACA awards as "proof".

The perfect reason to know what about the car you are going to buy, especially at an auction. 

[joe_padavano]

1 minute ago, TAKerry said:

I would doubt this car was made for 'drag racing'. I would suspect that it more likely was built for pure performance that one could have by simply checking the right box on the order sheet. Also a streetable vehicle that one could drive on a daily basis if wanted or needed. If you could take it to the track on a weekend for a couple of runs then that much the better. And I would bet that more than one were bought for that reason. For a car that was solely manufactured with the purpose of going fast down a track the factory lightweight cars of the early/mid sixties come to mind.

One more time, the whole point of the W31 package was for racing, and it was not possible to check boxes on the order form to build this car. Here is the SPECS page that shows RPO C60 (A/C) and JL2 (Power disc brakes) as N/A with W31.

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

I would doubt this car was made for 'drag racing'. I would suspect that it more likely was built for pure performance that one could have by simply checking the right box on the order sheet. Also a streetable vehicle that one could drive on a daily basis if wanted or needed. If you could take it to the track on a weekend for a couple of runs then that much the better. And I would bet that more than one were bought for that reason. For a car that was solely manufactured with the purpose of going fast down a track the factory lightweight cars of the early/mid sixties come to mind.

Per joe_Padavano, the car/engine was designed for the track.  Joe has it writing.  As such, it makes sense the heavy items like A/C were not listed of options available for the package.  

Edited May 10, 2023 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

25 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

Per joe_Padavano, the car/engine was designed for the track.  Joe has it writing.  As such, it makes sense the heavy items like A/C were not listed of options available for the package.  

I'll add that the camshaft was so radical that the engine used a special Qjet carb that replaced the usual primary metering rods and power piston with fixed primary jets since the lumpy idle prevented the normal Qjet primary metering system from working properly.

[avgwarhawk]

31 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

I'll add that the camshaft was so radical that the engine used a special Qjet carb that replaced the usual primary metering rods and power piston with fixed primary jet since the lumpy idle prevented the normal Qjet primary metering system from working properly.

Everything you pointed out is logical/factual.  The car that is represented at this auction does appear to be not what it is advertised to be.    

[TAKerry]

Joe, I do agree with what you are saying, but you misunderstood my comment about checking boxes. I was referring to if someone wanted a new car, that they could take out and race right off the lot, they could have checked the W31. Not that they could add items to one. Not disputing that this was a factory built performance car, just the statement that 'it was built for drag racing'. I would think that all that were sold were able to be legally titled and tagged for operation on public streets in any capacity. IMO a car 'built for drag racing' would be a factory lightweight that did not meet highway standards and was purpose built for the track only. 

[drhach]

Could these have been dealer installed options? 

[rocketraider]

Maybe the power disc brakes but, with the low engine vacuum the W31 cam made, they wouldn't have worked well without a big-volume weight-adding vacuum storage can.

 

Installing a factory airconditioning system would have required major surgery on the car body to accommodate. And then, no matter how many vacuum storage balls were installed, the low vacuum would all but keep it from working reliably.

 

Look at the spec sheet Joe posted and you'll see there were certain options that precluded A/C installation. W31 engine package because of the low vacuum, low rear axle ratios because of possibility of overspeeding the A/C compressor, and the close ratio 4-speed for same reason. All of which were attractive options to someone interested in racing.

 

Sure, there were race sanctioning rules and insurance surcharge reasons behind the W31's origins. 442 had their own VIN designation and the insurance companies beat up on them. A W31 carried a Cutlass/F85 VIN, and until the 1972 engine code requirement in the VIN, it was an easy way to get and insure an ungodly high performance car.

 

Truth be known Olds had a 320hp version of their 330 which was an unsung hero in its own right, but it was a much more civilized engine than W31. Which should tell us the W31's 325hp rating was, shall we say, light?

 

Put a 330/320 car and a W31 side by side, running, and the difference will be readily apparent. Difference in a Tennessee Walking Horse and an unbroken bronc. 

 

I'd like to hear Steve Minore's take on this optioned-up W31.

[Chris Bamford]

5 hours ago, MCHinson said:

...what the the rules are for AACA Judging. If those options were offered by Oldsmobile on any Oldsmobile of that particular year, for AACA judging purposes, those options are acceptable for judging on ANY Oldsmobile of that year...

I'm not looking for an argument or to be difficult, nor am I addressing this to MCHH in particular, but it can be interesting to carry blanket statements out to their (potentially) illogical conclusions...

 

If I'm showing a 1965 Chevrolet Malibu at an AACA meet and I have equipped this car with the Chevrolet Corvette optional 427 ci 425 hp engine with side pipes and positraction rear axle, would this be accepted at the meet? 

 

How about my 1966 Plymouth Superbird into which I have swapped the available-in-1966 225 ci Slant Six from my old Plymouth Valiant?

[carbking]

This thread has brought out some good points, but there are others that have either just been touched upon, or not mentioned.

 

One that Mecum discards with their disclaimer is fraud. I am certainly not an attorney, but I think it would be interesting to see how the "we are just an auction company" would play in court.

 

The second issue to me is more important. We are the current caretakers of our hobby. If we allow a vehicle such as this (Joe's term "a one of none") to be legitimitized; then future generations will believe that the vehicle is actually a legitimate vehicle.

 

At the very least, a polite letter (hopefully from the AACA) questioning this vehicle, and even with a copy of this thread should be sent via registered mail to Mecum for their response.

 

Jon

[edinmass]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:31 AM, West Peterson said:

I have a close friend who worked for Fisher. The number of anomalies that left the factory would surprise you. I'm talking about cars that were built differently than what the build sheet says, and were done by accident, as opposed to any special ordering. Rather than stop the assembly line, these cars were set aside after they were built, then evaluated as to whether they could be sold (usually to a plant employee). Cars were being assembled in combinations that were not available, and today the authenticity of said vehicles cannot be documented, because the build sheet only tells of how the car was supposed to be built.

A good example of the not built to the factory build sheet specifications are all the 1932 Packards that were supposedly built as sedans, but were actually built as a Dual Cowls. Funny how the mistakes usually only go in one direction…..making the car more valuable and desirable…….and never the other way around. 😏

[8E45E]

5 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Funny how the mistakes usually only go in one direction…..making the car more valuable and desirable…….and never the other way around. 😏

Its the same for upside-down postage stamps.   An example:  Canada’s St. Lawrence Seaway Inverted Error Stamp to be Auctioned | Mintage World

 

Craig

[Avanti Bill]

Is it possible that this car did not come with the W31 package, this seems to me to be the easier fraud to perpetrate,  or does the data plate indicate the W31?  Again, this is an interesting debate and while AACA may never be able to fully prevent this type of situation I think this need more attention.

[TAKerry]

3 hours ago, Chris Bamford said:

I'm not looking for an argument or to be difficult, nor am I addressing this to MCHH in particular, but it can be interesting to carry blanket statements out to their (potentially) illogical conclusions...

 

If I'm showing a 1965 Chevrolet Malibu at an AACA meet and I have equipped this car with the Chevrolet Corvette optional 427 ci 425 hp engine with side pipes and positraction rear axle, would this be accepted at the meet? 

 

How about my 1966 Plymouth Superbird into which I have swapped the available-in-1966 225 ci Slant Six from my old Plymouth Valiant?

I am far from an expert but as I interpret the rule, IF the 427ci/425hp motor was available on a 65 malibu and the car was originally built with a 6 cylinder I would say yes it is accepted. IF that powertrain combination was ONLY available on the 'vette then NO. It should be an option available to that particular model, not a brand across the board. I dont think they made  superbird in 1966, LOL.

[TAKerry]

Any auction company will have a disclaimer that they wont guaranty the authenticity of a particular car. I dont think its deception, most likely they dont have the time and wherewithal to investigate every car put up for bid. 

[chistech]

Back in 78 my dad ordered a chevy K30 pickup with 4sp, 4:56 ratio, single wheel rear, painted Forest green. When the truck arrived it had a chevy emblem on the grill and Chevrolet on the tailgate. It had GMC 3500 fender emblems, a chevy bowtie on the horn cap, chevy hubcaps on the rear, (the fronts had no emblems because they were cut for the hubs), and a GMC Sierra dash badge. It also came with a factory dent in the hood rib! GM did not have lockouts available for the K30 and we installed Selectro hubs so we weren’t constantly turning the front end over. Today I wish we still had the truck as I would’ve restored it and showed it. I can just imagine what would happen during judging. I have no idea how i could prove all the badging was original.

[joe_padavano]

15 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Joe, I do agree with what you are saying, but you misunderstood my comment about checking boxes. I was referring to if someone wanted a new car, that they could take out and race right off the lot, they could have checked the W31. Not that they could add items to one. Not disputing that this was a factory built performance car, just the statement that 'it was built for drag racing'. I would think that all that were sold were able to be legally titled and tagged for operation on public streets in any capacity. IMO a car 'built for drag racing' would be a factory lightweight that did not meet highway standards and was purpose built for the track only. 

Yes, I was not trying to imply that these cars were in the same class as the lightweights that were sold in the early 1960s, but the W31s were marginally streetable and not intended a daily drivers.

[joe_padavano]

10 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

Is it possible that this car did not come with the W31 package, this seems to me to be the easier fraud to perpetrate,  or does the data plate indicate the W31?  Again, this is an interesting debate and while AACA may never be able to fully prevent this type of situation I think this need more attention.

Yes, as I noted above, after thinking about this a while, the most likely scenario is exactly as you describe. Unfortunately there is no way to "prove" a car was originally built as a W31 without original build documents. and those are pretty much nonexistent for Oldsmobiles of this vintage.

[chistech]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:57 AM, Steve Moskowitz said:

Any substitutions and changes were completely documented in the dealer service bulletins.

 

Joe, I hate to debate with a MIT graduate but this statement is false.  Dealer service bulletins contained a lot of the general info needed for technicians but did not document some cars that indeed got "special attention" if someone knew someone at the Divisions in GM.  Technicians in many cases never got even the info from Engineering Bulletins. Cars that were built on special order remained just that, special order and were quietly not really discussed.  It is not unlike how a few pace cars got into dealers hands.  I certainly got to see my share of skunk works results based on my time working for Olds and as a dealer.

 

All that being said I agree with your assessment of the air conditioning issue on this particular car.

Steve, many years back I remember seeing an add for a white 72 Chevy K-5 Blazer CST where the seller claimed to be a retired GM factory official who had this Blazer built for him from leftover parts they were able to source from all the plants. It was beautiful, and fully loaded with every single option available but the manufacture date was the early to late 80’s! I still don’t know if that whole thing was possible but t did seem legit with phone numbers and all. There was a picture of the title with the GM officials name and the odd date of manufacture. I can’t remember what that date was but it was way past 72. Was something like this possible?

Edited May 11, 2023 by chistech (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Anything was possible in those days!  At one time GM was not centralized so the Division Managers were gods and had plenty of power including some of their own parts plants, etc.  There were more than a few behind the scenes deals done for execs, friends and dealers who were ultra key and friendly with top officials.  However, this story is suspect to me as the time interval was too long.  Due to the yearly plant changeovers that would have meant that the Blazer would literally have to be hand built.  I would think there would have had to be some legal ramifications in regards to this as well.  The 70's were a different story but it is hard for me to believe that this was done in the 80's.  Hate to sit in the fence post as I try not to say never but again, this one seems too far fetched.

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, chistech said:

Steve, many years back I remember seeing an add for a white 72 Chevy K-5 Blazer CST where the seller claimed to be a retired GM factory official who had this Blazer built for him from leftover parts they were able to source from all the plants. It was beautiful, and fully loaded with every single option available but the manufacture date was the early to late 80’s! 

I doubt the manufacture date of the Blazer would have been completed in the 1980's.  There is no way a 1972 vehicle would have conformed to 1980's standards, and be legally sold; especially without a 17-digit Vehicle Identification Number that became law in 1981.  

 

What I could see happening into the 1980's was some dealers still having left over 1972 accessories and spare parts in stock in their Parts inventory, and perhaps it got 'optioned up' with these stale items.  

 

Craig

[chistech]

I thought that too but at the time I was looking at the add ( it might have been early eBay days) everything thing pictured added up. It would have to been hand assembled which I believe there was some mention of something like that and that the parts were acquired from many different plants because it was way out of production. The add did say it was specially made for that executive. 

[PWN]

 

[Dave39MD]

Very hard to believe but if the exec was at or near the top perhaps they were able to get the tech center to build one from parts from Warehousing and Distribution.

 

Dave

[TAKerry]

I would highly doubt that gm would have a body and frame for a 72 blazer laying around someplace waiting to be assembled into a new vehicle in 1980. I think that Craigs explanation would hold a bit more weight. I can see someone 'restoring' a 1972 vehicle with NOS dealer parts. I think its another of those a friend of a friend story that gets misconstrued, elaborated upon, embellished, facts forgotten etc. with the passage of time. More times than not if I dont know that the person was personally involved or know the story first hand myself I take them with a grain of salt.

[oldford]

It's been my experience that every car comes with a story. If the owner is not happy with the story he receives, he'll create on of his own...

 

Frank

[joe_padavano]

To close this out, this fake car brought $112K at Mecum. Someone is in for a very rude awakening.

[rocketraider]

And it will be held up as a standard of the breed by people who know no different or better.

[joe_padavano]

33 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

And it will be held up as a standard of the breed by people who know no different or better.

Sadly true. Kind of like how everyone today thinks all 68 442s came with the W36 stripes...

[EmTee]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:16 PM, joe_padavano said:

Someone is in for a very rude awakening.

I'll wager the person who bought it doesn't care.  He or she will probably flip it in a year or two anyway...

[rocketraider]

"Absolutely correct and restored to original SPECIAL ORDER W31!"

 

😏

[Ed Luddy]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:16 PM, joe_padavano said:

To close this out, this fake car brought $112K at Mecum. Someone is in for a very rude awakening.

With no recourse to get some or all of his money back. They will just tell him to read the bidding and sales contract. The auction houses are not really in the best interest of buyers or sellers. Just themselves.

[Ed Luddy]

On 5/10/2023 at 8:51 AM, rocketraider said:

Considering the marketing the auction house is giving this car, the expected high sale price, and the indisputable fact that someone, somewhere, down the road is going to try to present this car as the "correct" W31 restoration standard, the multiple AACA award badges aren't helping us as AACA members and judges.

 

Again, I understand that AACA judging can't possibly know the nuances of different carlines. Except for NCRS the marque clubs don't do much better even with PHS, Marti and Govier documentation.

 

The prospect of some unscrupulous owner or seller trying to pass off a car like this as a restoration standard is what bothers me.

 

I don't dispute the quality of the work. Given the constraints of W31 I do dispute anyone's claim that Oldsmobile Division built it as it's currently presented. It's basically the same thing as claiming a mid-60s Chrysler intermediate with a Street Hemi came with factory air conditioning. Didn't happen.

Now if this car had been sold and delivered new into Canada you can get the GM Vintage Vehicle documents that detail how it was built, what options, build date and dealership that ordered it. It's too bad they didn't do that in the USA. This is a partial sheet from my 1972 442 convertible