1909 Lambert Automobile

[Scott Lambert]

I recently inherited a 1909 Lambert Automobile which belonged to my father Jack Lambert who restored the car.  It has not been driven in twenty-eight years.  I am looking for suggestions on what to do with car.  It has to be moved from its current location by May 6th.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Scott Lambert
typo (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Scott, congratulations but you need to spell out to the folks on here what you mean by "what to do with car".  No one would know if you are meaning getting the car running, selling, keeping,  etc.

[Restorer32]

And where are you located?

[1937hd45]

That was a rather famous car along with the fellow that drove it. Hope you plan to keep it. Bob 

Edited April 11, 2023 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

Scott, I looked up Lambert in the Encyclopedia of Motorcars and along with the Lambert history, there is a picture of a Lambert. The picture looks like it was taken inside the HERSHEY stadium, at one of the early HERSHEY meets. The car has a New York license plate affixed to the front spreader bar and looks like the date of the plate is 1958. With the rarity of Lambert's, I wonder if this could be the same car as the one we are talking about?

[Scott Lambert]

The car is located in Amherst, NY in the garage attached to my late parents house.  My father loved this car and travelling around the country with it.  I would like to sell it to someone who has the same passion or antique automobiles.  I am not sure if it is the same car in the photo inside the Hershey stadium.  Dad's car had NYS plates and the plate name was LAMBERT.

[lump]

Like this one, perhaps? Gorgeous car!! 

Edited April 11, 2023 by lump (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

The picture in the Encyclopedia is in black and white, so it's hard to come up with a color, but the plate is not "LAMBERT" but 4E-728. Now, the license plate in the picture is dated 1958, so that was before NYSDMV allowed personal plates. It's hard to imagine two 1909 lamberts from New York as rare as they are, it might be the same car. Do you know how many Lambert's were in the area?

[old car fan]

Scott can you post some pics.

[Scott Lambert]

The car is located in Amherst, NY in the garage attached to my late parents house.  My father loved this car and travelling around the country with it.  I would like to sell it to someone who has the same passion or antique automobiles.  I am not sure if it is the same car in the photo inside the Hershey stadium.  Dad's car had NYS plates and the plate name was LAMBERT.

 

Yes, that is Dad's car.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Scott, I think the best place to advertise it for sale

is the website (and/or magazine) of the Horseless

Carriage Club of America.  That large club is the

friendly home for anyone who appreciates pre-1916

cars.  Many obscure makes can be found here.

 

Here is a link to their website and the for-sale ads there:

https://hcca.org/Classifieds/classifieds.php

 

It's often better to get a car operating well before selling,

but I would not recommend that in your case:  Knowledge

of early cars isn't common, and you can't trust its mechanics

to the average Joe's Garage.  A dedicated early-car fan

would be happy to buy it as it is, and take the time and

care to get it running;  and many such fans have that

specialized knowledge.

 

Don't sell it in a fire-sale to the first low-baller.  Price

it reasonably.  If you have to have it removed from its

current location, find another location where it will be

safe until it's sold.  It could be winched into a trailer

for transport if it's not running.

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

If your father has spare parts to the Lambert,

be sure to include them in the sale--and mention

that when you advertise it.  Parts like those are

likely unobtainable elsewhere, and they will be

appreciated very much by the next careful owner.

 

Also, all records--receipts, business cards, notes,

manuals, sales literature, etc.--that your father

may have should also be passed along.

People like to know the history of their car and its

restoration, and they may be very helpful for the 

next owner when working on the car.

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Scott Lambert]

Thank you!  This is great advice and I will follow it. There are spare parts and a tool box and everything, including some awards and the trailer will be included in the sale.

[John_S_in_Penna]

If you can take several pictures of the Lambert's

current condition, we might be able to suggest a

realistic value for it.  Exterior pictures from a few angles;

interior;  and engine compartment, will help us help you

further.

 

And, for ethical reasons, no one who appraises a car

must ever be allowed to buy it.  That would be a

conflict of interest.  "Widow Smith, I think your 1912

Packard is worth $10,000.  I'll buy it!"

 

But, with all the opinions and expertise here, you

shouldn't need an appraiser for selling it. 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Scott, you can also advertise the car on this site for free.  AACA has a large brass car family and several rare brass cars have changed hands through this site.  John Lambert won his First Junior in Waterloo, IA in 1962.  According to the class it was in that would make it a 2-cylinder and a Model A1 which is a 20 HP car.  I think this could be a relatively easy car to estimate its value based upon comparables of similar rare, low horsepower cars that have recently sold.

[gossp]

20 horsepower is a big 2cyl car. 1&2 cyl cars tend to be on tours of their own and this lambert would be one of the big cars. 
 

A large 2cyl, friction drive, Indiana built brass era car checks all the boxes for me, but I am not in a position to pursue. Two brass era cars is already too many for me in the child raising years. 

[wayne sheldon]

When early automobile hobbyists casually discuss "friction drive" automobiles, the two marques that first jump into mind are Cartercar and Metz. Among the early car crowd, those are the two best known.

However, there were actually dozens of others! In the early days technology, friction drive was a simple economical and easy to manufacture without the cost of expensive gears! A significant percentage of high wheel buggy type automobiles were in fact friction drive, as well as the Orient automobiles (forerunners to the Metz!). The Sears and the Schacht were friction drive, and a few high wheeler types offered an option or differing models with some friction drive and others not (usually a planetary type).

The Lambert, however, was a major (by measures comparable to the era!) producer of friction drive automobiles! And they built a large variety of models and styles from those same high wheeler farm types through small light "conventional" style runabouts, right on up to even a quite large high horsepower touring car!

A few years ago (what, four or five years ago now?), there was an estate sale that included at least five Lambert automobiles including one of those big touring cars! Most were mostly unrestored and needed quite a bit of restoration work. I knew someone that was doing some restoration work on the big touring car (for the new owner, although I was never told who the new owner was), but never heard where any of the others went.  The rest of the cars I have no idea where they went.

Including two from the old William Harrah collections, I have personally seen four or five Lamberts myself. Very nice cars for their original price range!

 

[Crusty Trucker]

FYI and reference, here's a 1913 Lambert 66C offered about a year ago. No price or history listed.

 

 

 

More Lambert automobile info:

https://www.google.com/search?q=lambert&rlz=1CAEAQE_enUS748US748&oq=lambert&aqs=chrome..69i59j69i57j0i433i512j0i131i433i512j46i175i199i433i512j46i131i175i199i433i650j69i60l2.16374j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edited April 11, 2023 by Crusty Trucker (see edit history)

[zeke01]

3 hours ago, Scott Lambert said:

Thank you!  This is great advice and I will follow it. There are spare parts and a tool box and everything, including some awards and the trailer will be included in the sale.

Scott, at the risk of going off topic, I well remember your father. A real gentleman. He , along with John Caperton, Tom Smith and John Stinger and others acted as my mentors when I first started touring. A great bunch of men, well remembered. Zeke

[modela28]

Here is an unrestored 1908 Lambert.

[wayne sheldon]

That is the big (said to be 40hp?) touring car! 

Here is an era photograph of one, harvested from somewhere on the net years ago. Sorry my photos program doesn't record proper acknowledgements.

 

 

[Trulyvintage]

Scott,

 

Welcome …

I hope you keep The Family Legacy alive

 

Have someone familiar with the car

disengage the drive - then try to gently

rock the vehicle forward & backward

to see if it rolls freely

 

See if it will easily turn but don’t 

force the steering mechanism

 

If the tires hold air - try to inflate 

them slowly with a low pressure pump 

 

Get an accurate measurement from

grade to the tallest point on the car

 

Make sure everything in the garage 

is collected & packaged for moving 

 

Save Everything - Discard Nothing

 

 

Jim

[mikewest]

I  had nice  friendly a visit today with the seller of the Lambert . I am 50 miles from the car and  was interested until I heard the price  of $50,000. I still like but I don't understand the price.  Maybe Im out of touch....

[gossp]

14 minutes ago, mikewest said:

I  had nice  friendly a visit today with the seller of the Lambert . I am 50 miles from the car and  was interested until I heard the price  of $50,000. I still like but I don't understand the price.  Maybe Im out of touch....

I think it would have to be a fairly fresh restoration (or a very well maintained older one) and running and driving to command a number like that, but if it were correct, shiny, and ready to enjoy that would be about the number. 

[mikewest]

28 minutes ago, gossp said:

I think it would have to be a fairly fresh restoration (or a very well maintained older one) and running and driving to command a number like that, but if it were correct, shiny, and ready to enjoy that would be about the number. 

It was restored in 1958 and hasn't run in 28 years. Its a 2 cylinder  , friction  drive car.

[gossp]

2cyl and friction drive are positives to me.  My father had a couple Cartercars in years past and I am more than comfortable with the platform. 
 

My guess is the price is about double or more what it should be with how long it has been static. Still a very neat car.  Did you happen to take any pics that aren’t from when the restoration was fresh?

[John_S_in_Penna]

If Scott is thinking of $50,000, I wonder where he 

got that advice.  Scott, you should realize that ASKING

prices these days are many times ludicrous, double

the realistic value, or even more.  I don't see that excess

so much among the early cars, but SELLING prices are

the real determinant.  Please don't be misled.

[playswithbrass]

That’s the asking price for Cadillacs and 2 cylinder Buicks of the same year  Not that way out

[Dandy Dave]

After sitting for 28 Years also getting it running would help in a sale. I'm sure the first thing it will need tires as they are old. There is a lot to take in account. If you want someone to look it over and get it running I may be game. PM me if so. My wife and I could look around Niagara Falls as I see you are close. I have a lot of experience working on early stuff. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

4 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

After sitting for 28 Years also getting it running would help in a sale. 

That's true, but I advised against it.

Scott doesn't have the knowledge to work on a brass car.

He would like to sell it fairly soon.  Can his father's friends

help him with expertise--and not trial and error--on a Lambert?

Restoration shops may be booked up for many months, and

the car may spend many months there, and Scott may pay

thousands of dollars for their work.  Maybe there aren't even

brass-era restoration shops near him, and the car will have

to be transported 200 miles to the right place.

 

Dave, if you can help, that would be magnanimous!

Otherwise, for his sake, I say sell it as it is, and let the next

careful collector lavish the love it needs.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Trulyvintage]

The OP joined to sell a car on short

notice that was owned by his Father.

 

The OP says the car has to be moved by May 6th (probably because the property either is being listed or has been sold).

 

The OP apparently has put a valuation 

on the car of 50K.

 

I would caution anyone against attempting 

to do any mechanical work on any vehicle

that has sat for 28 years in order to get

it in better condition to sell.

 

What is best for this vehicle is not

what the OP is attempting to facilitate 

by posting here.

 

 

Jim

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

From what I have seen (oh so many times!) over the years in this hobby? Is that probably nine out of ten times, Any significant effort or COST to "better" a car for the purposes of selling it, wind up costing two to ten times more than any increase in the selling price! (A fool's errand?)

Easily half the time, the work winds up being done by someone that knows NOTHING about antique vehicles or how to work on them! Nearly always those idiots end up doing more damage than anything good and charging many thousands of dollars for causing that damage! I have seen a dozen decent cars virtually destroyed by the mechanic or body man who was supposed to be helping the poor seller! (And the seller often paid more than the car was worth before it was ruined to wind up with something nobody would buy!)

 

Dandy Dave is of course an exception to the rule!

Edited April 13, 2023 by wayne sheldon (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Sorry. Stupid computer used a "magic swipe" and decided to post before I was nearly done!

 

Dandy Dave is of course an exception to the rule! A great deal of knowledge and tremendous amount of skill working on these things. And an ethic to give good advice before committing to anything.

There are several others that frequent this forum that would also be very good at bringing the car up to tour-ready! But the general rule still applies. The cost would far exceed any gain in selling value.

Keeping the car and making it ready to drive and enjoy is one thing. Trying to sell it whether due to necessity or lack of interest is something else.

 

As for value? I don't like evaluating other people's cars. However, in short, the Lambert is a rare and unusual automobile in an unusual area of the hobby (the friction drive!). But "rare and unusual" does NOT equal value in a dollars sense!

There are many desirability issues that affect dollar value way more than how rare it is! In value, size does matter, a LOT! And a car's particular place in automotive history is also very important! How many races did the marque win? What especial feature were they famous for? What famous people owned them (generally speaking, not necessarily that specific car)?

 

Another important factor is that people are herd animals. They like to "pal around" with their buddies that have a similar or same marque car! Go on some HCCA or CCCA tours. See the Maxwell owners hanging around together. The Reo crowd over there. The Pierce Arrow people are top of the heap and they know it( hey, I used to own one!😁)! Packard, Cadillac, Studebaker, or Nash. They all tend to buddy with like marques.

The model T and model A Fords are the most common antique cars one can find! And they are very popular, often selling for more money than much better cars of the same era.

Got a Lambert? Anywhere you go you will probably be the only one.

There are a lot of people, including ME, that are fascinated by the unusual cars. Over the years, I have owned a Fuller, and a Sayers, among several not really common cars. And a lot of people do appreciate the odd marques. They will be welcomed in many clubs and most non-marque-specific tours. But most people when it comes time to buy a car want something a friend has. And THAT does affect its dollar value.

 

Good luck! And I wish I could afford it.

[Paul Dobbin]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:52 PM, mikewest said:

I  had nice  friendly a visit today with the seller of the Lambert . I am 50 miles from the car and  was interested until I heard the price  of $50,000. I still like but I don't understand the price.  Maybe Im out of touch....

  Mike,

  Scott asked for help because he didn't know what it was worth today.   His informatio from his father was at least 28 years old and ,aybe even from

  1958 whrn the car was fresh, plus it was the proud fathers opinion which is always inflated.   I hope you were helpful but not mean or rude.  Maybe   

   he'll get more information and call you back.   

   I wrote a true story for Tom Cotter's book "The Cobra in the Barn", about a 32 Ford Roadster Pickup in the barn that took the buyer 50 years to       

   buy..  Somethims it takes quite a while for the seller to know what we know.   Sometimes they never know.

[mikewest]

5 minutes ago, Paul Dobbin said:

  Mike,

  Scott asked for help because he didn't know what it was worth today.   His informatio from his father was at least 28 years old and ,aybe even from

  1958 whrn the car was fresh, plus it was the proud fathers opinion which is always inflated.   I hope you were helpful but not mean or rude.  Maybe   

   he'll get more information and call you back.   

   I wrote a true story for Tom Cotter's book "The Cobra in the Barn", about a 32 Ford Roadster Pickup in the barn that took the buyer 50 years to       

   buy..  Somethims it takes quite a while for the seller to know what we know.   Sometimes they never know.

Paul, why the he'll would I be mean? I thanked him and said it was more than I would pay. I'm not a mean person,.  But 50k is  beyond a pipe dream

[alsancle]

Those of us that pay attention to all the stuff have a hard enough time figuring out values and we argue constantly. I can’t even imagine how hard it must be for someone who inherits a car and has no idea what it might be worth.

 

I think gently helping sellers with valuations is valuable and I know that if I was on the other side I would welcome any thoughtful advice. 

[46 woodie]

Scott, one suggestion if I may. You mention that the car needs to be moved by May 6th, don't let that dictate your sale of the car. I would try to find a "loner" or rental garage, to take the pressure off your removal date. I don't think your $50,000 sale price is too far out of line, but a car like yours will take time to sell. As others have suggested, you will need to contact several different club's and people and that all takes time. It's quite possible that the car might realize more than $50K if you take your time with the sale. It sounds like your Dad had a lot of friends and once word gets out that the car is available, you never know who might be a potential buyer.

[John_S_in_Penna]

19 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I don't think your $50,000 sale price is too far out of line, but a car like yours will take time to sell.

On the Horseless Carriage Club website, I have

seen realistically priced cars sell in just a few days.

I'm not an expert on Lamberts or 2-cylinder cars,

but asking $30,000 and accepting $25,000 for a

non-running car might result in a sale.  I've seen

over-priced cars sit for 4 years or more for sale, and

who knows how far the price finally had to come down.

 

If Scott had work done at a restoration shop, he might

not get the car in for 6-12 months;  the car might be there

several more months;  the cost out of his pocket might be

$10,000;  and, after waiting all that time, who knows 

whether he would even recoup the cost?

 

I recommend:  Sell it to a good home for a reasonable price.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[trimacar]

21 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

On the Horseless Carriage Club website, I have

seen realistically priced cars sell in just a few days.

I'm not an expert on Lamberts or 2-cylinder cars,

but asking $30,000 and accepting $25,000 for a

non-running car might result in a sale.

I agree.  A car that's not been on the road for a while takes some cash to recommission, and a seller has to figure that in the sale price.

 

As has been mentioned, rare doesn't mean valuable, it just means rare.  This is a neat car but the values mentioned above are closer to reality, in my opinion.

 

I recently bought a car at a "bargain" price.  I need a set of tires, 33x4, the ones on the car are 60 years old.  A set of four tires, with tubes, is $1500 to $2500, depending on who you buy them from (33x4 now right at $300 a tire from one  company, another brand is right at $500 a tire).

[John_S_in_Penna]

There's sometimes the temptation to set a high price

and think, "There will be someone who desperately

wants it.  I just have to wait for that person to come along."

 

But that is contrary to the laws of economics.  At a certain

price level, the quantity demanded is ZERO.  And it remains

zero.  People have many other options.