Dietrich Individual Customs - 32/33/34

[packard12man]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:31 PM, Matt Goist said:

I am just finding this thread now, I should check these forums more often. I'll contribute this one for now, as I do not think it has been posted yet. Pretty well known car. Ex-Otis Chandler

One of three 1933 Sport Phaetons ever built, currently receiving some long overdue maintenance by yours truly. 

 

I have heard that all three made appearances at major 1933 auto shows. I would like to confirm where this one potentially went, if anyone has history to share privately or publicly. 

For that matter, any history anyone has to share on this example or any of the 1933 Sport Phaetons is greatly appreciated. 

 

Briggs Cunningham owned a '33 Sport Phaeton, now in the REVS Institute, still in the same condition/restoration when owned by Briggs. This is the Blue one. 

I believe the third remaining one (painted green at one point) also lives out here in CA, sharing floorspace with the survivor '33 convertible runabout. 

 

Matt, congratulations on working on a big boy toy.   I am sending along a few photos you might enjoy.  If you are a member of the CCCA, and you go on their website, and search for Bayard Badenhausen in the bulletins, there is an interesting tale of the blue sport phaeton owned before Briggs Cunningham ownership.

 

[packard12man]

Looking forward to the upcoming Pebble Beach auctions.  Any expert guesses on the selling prices of the three Dietrich's?  

 

My 2 cents worth - Mecum's Brown Conv Sedan 800K,  Gooding Green Conv Sedan 600K and the RM 33 Victoria 2.6M 

[alsancle]

I'm mostly in agreement,  although the RM car is very nice and I could see it doing a little better than that.

[edinmass]

I’m not sure you can buy a split windshield Packard 12 for under seven figures all in today………I am not familiar with the cars or their condition & provenance. The Victoria has a long and interesting history. I liked it better in green. My preferred years is 1932, then 34, and lastly 33. All great cars to drive. Sure is a lot of good junk offered for sale this year at the Pebble auctions. It’s going to be an interesting week.

[alsancle]

10 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I’m not sure you can buy a split windshield Packard 12 for under seven figures all in today………I am not familiar with the cars or their condition & provenance. The Victoria has a long and interesting history. I liked it better in green. My preferred years is 1932, then 34, and lastly 33. All great cars to drive. Sure is a lot of good junk offered for sale this year at the Pebble auctions. It’s going to be an interesting week.

You can if it is a convertible sedan.

[Matt Goist]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

I'm mostly in agreement,  although the RM car is very nice and I could see it doing a little better than that.

I agree, I’ve seen this car in person multiple times. I think it will easily break 3.2, and wouldn’t be shocked to see it so high est.  

[Cadillac Fan]

Did Gooding’s lawyers get to the admins?   
 

The crash photo of the green car is gone.  

Edited July 18, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

29 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Did Gooding’s lawyers get to the admins?   

 

No

[alsancle]

Probably 90% of all cars are compromised in some way.  Prewar cars are almost 100 years old.  They have lived along life usually well before the current owner acquired them.

 

Sometimes the issues are not a big deal.  Sometimes the car is built from floor sweepings. 

 

When spending 100s or millions of dollars on a car you should know what you are doing.

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

No

I have photos of the car at the accident scene, in the garage wrecked, and the resurrection. It’s well known what happened to this particular car. The photos were sent to me by other members here……so they are fairly well known and public.

 

 

[edinmass]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:29 PM, alsancle said:

You can if it is a convertible sedan.

Im factoring in inflation over the last three years…………

[wayne sheldon]

31 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Probably 90% of all cars are compromised in some way.  Prewar cars are almost 100 years old.  They have lived along life usually well before the current owner acquired them.

 

Sometimes the issues are not a big deal.  Sometimes the car is built from floor sweepings. 

 

When spending 100s or millions of dollars on a car you should know what you are doing.

 

We need to understand this about our antique automobiles and accept and deal with that reality of them.

Cars of the 1930s are nearing the century mark, and most of the antique cars I have owned over the years are now over a century old. Any car manufactured before about 1930 had to survive nearly twenty of the toughest years in modern times. Between the great depression, World War Two, its aftermath and economic repercussions, common everyday cars were little more than tools needed for survival. Owners had much more serious things to worry about than keeping records of maintenance and past owner's names and personal profiles. Some of the great Classics were kept track of by manufacturers or other's maintenance records, owner's clubs, but even most of the (big "C") Classics ownership records were not kept forever.

 

I am an opinionated and often outspoken S-O-*, and have often been at odds with common popular belief. Quite frankly, even our hobby is guilty of way too much (the right word is) deception. In stead of restoring nice surviving sedans and limousines, good solid original bodies were literally trashed and replaced with copies of more desirable body styles.

Don't get me wrong. I think a lot of them are beautiful! And I most certainly am not against creating a copy of a desirable custom and placing it on a surviving chassis that the original body was somehow destroyed or lost to the ages and weather. Such copies, well done, create opportunities for more people to own, drive and show such wonderful automobiles to even more people. But THOSE cars are still partially or largely reproductions! Enjoy them? Yes. However they need to be known for what they are.

Even more importantly, such reproductions even on appropriate original chassis should not be allowed to devalue the true survivors it is like. "Value" is a judgement call. The market place needs to find reasonable valuation differences between very similar cars to recognize the difference between a very well restored 90 percent original car versus a 60/40 percent original/repro, and that against a 30/70 percent original/repro. In comparable quality of restoration, the more original of the car anything metal or wood and even hardware, the more the car should be worth! When getting into really "original" cars, that situation becomes much more complicated with condition issues.

With tires, consumable mechanical items, upholstery and even paint (actually a significant portion of the complete automobile!), 90 percent is about as much as can actually be original on a well restored car. Such a car properly restored, should be worth "all the money!" A car that has had most of the wood and a significant amount of the sheet metal replaced during restoration should be worth significantly less. Even if the car is otherwise a known original car. Exactly how much less such a car should be worth is debatable, and would vary based upon rarity and desirability issues.

Near the bottom end of the desirability ladder (for otherwise very nice good quality restorations?) would be the "floor sweepings resurrections". In most cases in high end Classics, a floor sweepings car should sell for about a quarter of the price of the best of the best. (My general amount opinion, open to debate?) And that greatly lower value is for a car that likely cost just as much or more to restore it as did the best of the best.

The "value" difference in more common Classics and common cars probably should not be as extreme as it should be for the high end stuff. However, similar ideals should apply. The more like original a collector car is kept, the more it should be worth relative to similar cars.

 

Most common prewar cars it may not be possible to have really good provenance. For most such cars of that era, most of that information was lost a half century ago. However, for all collector cars, the more (good?) that one can know and prove? The better.

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Im factoring in inflation over the last three years…………

So you think all collectible cars are following the inflation curve?

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

So you think all collectible cars are following the inflation curve?

 

I think the top 3 percent of the market is...............we will know next month after Pebble for certain. 

[Gunsmoke]

Any economist or financial guru will tell you that people with lots of money seldom make purchasing (or selling) decisions based on momentary factors like inflation, mood of the country, or similar fickle things. They buy/sell based on long term investment strategies, personal likes/preferences, or whim. Sometimes just so no one else (especially a rival) can have it. While the other 99% of us are fearful of making a bad investment/decision on old cars, these guys don't give it a second thought. Do you think for a moment that if Elon Musk, worth about $200B, went to a prestige auction and saw something he liked, he would be pondering if the car is worth the money?  

[Matt Goist]

38 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Any economist or financial guru will tell you that people with lots of money seldom make purchasing (or selling) decisions based on momentary factors like inflation, mood of the country, or similar fickle things. They buy/sell based on long term investment strategies, personal likes/preferences, or whim. Sometimes just so no one else (especially a rival) can have it. While the other 99% of us are fearful of making a bad investment/decision on old cars, these guys don't give it a second thought. Do you think for a moment that if Elon Musk, worth about $200B, went to a prestige auction and saw something he liked, he would be pondering if the car is worth the money?  

While I do agree with you, if two people want it, it must be "worth" it 

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Any economist or financial guru will tell you that people with lots of money seldom make purchasing (or selling) decisions based on momentary factors like inflation, mood of the country, or similar fickle things. They buy/sell based on long term investment strategies, personal likes/preferences, or whim. Sometimes just so no one else (especially a rival) can have it. While the other 99% of us are fearful of making a bad investment/decision on old cars, these guys don't give it a second thought. Do you think for a moment that if Elon Musk, worth about $200B, went to a prestige auction and saw something he liked, he would be pondering if the car is worth the money?  

 

Two things I don't agree with :

 

1.  That Elon Musk would have the time or care to hang around an old car auction.

 

2.  Using the word "investment" in the same sentence with old cars.

[Matt Goist]

On 7/19/2023 at 3:22 AM, alsancle said:

So you think all collectible cars are following the inflation curve?

I am still waiting on my Franklins to mature! 😆😆

[packard12man]

I just read the catalogue description from Gooding regarding the Green Dietrich Conv. Sedan - putting stock in an auction catalogue description to say the least is going out on a limb but Mr Bohmer makes mention of a 34 Sport Sedan parts car in Chicago.  The odds have to be pretty good that the parts car is the remains of the missing Maybelline car.  To bad Mr Bohmer is not with us any longer to ask the question!

[Rusty_OToole]

If someone like Elon Musk wanted an expensive classic he would be smart enough to hire the best expert to vet it. He might not mind paying top dollar but would be sure to get his money's worth. Those of you who deal in the top end of the market, probably know wealthy collectors like that.

 

Some years back I read a story about a man who bought a reproduction of a Duesenberg, built on a Dodge truck chassis, for twice what it was worth. Turned out he was a working man who go a large, multi million dollar settlement after being injured in an  accident. He saw the car in a dealer's show room, liked it, and paid the asking price without further ado.

My question was, where are people like that when I have a car to sell?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If someone like Elon Musk wanted an expensive classic he would be smart enough to hire the best expert to vet it. He might not mind paying top dollar but would be sure to get his money's worth. Those of you who deal in the top end of the market, probably know wealthy collectors like that.

 

90% of the wealthy guys that are new to collecting cars make incredibly poor decisions.   Many don't want to pay for independent advice because they think it looks easy.  Or their advisor is someone that doesn't necessarily have their best interests at heart.      Weird, because typically they are very smart in their world.  

In fairness,  if you are coming in cold it is hard to know who to trust if you are looking for help.

Edited July 21, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

32 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

90% of the wealthy guys that are new to collecting cars make incredibly poor decisions.   Many don't want to pay for independent advice because they think it looks easy.  Or their advisor is someone that doesn't necessarily have their best interests at heart.      Weird, because typically they are very smart in their world.  

In fairness,  if you are coming in cold it is hard to know who to trust if you are looking for help.

 

I might extend that to the not-so-wealthy guys too.   Lots of ways to screw up when you're buying an old car.

[EmTee]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

In fairness,  if you are coming in cold it is hard to know who to trust if you are looking for help.

This is true in general.

[West Peterson]

18 hours ago, packard12man said:

I just read the catalogue description from Gooding regarding the Green Dietrich Conv. Sedan - putting stock in an auction catalogue description to say the least is going out on a limb but Mr Bohmer makes mention of a 34 Sport Sedan parts car in Chicago.  The odds have to be pretty good that the parts car is the remains of the missing Maybelline car.  To bad Mr Bohmer is not with us any longer to ask the question!

 

The car WAS NOT a sports sedan. It was a regular production sedan. I knew John all my life, own one of his former Packards, and saw the car that became a parts car for the Dietrich. It was too bad it was turned into a parts car, as it was a really nice original car. Nowadays, knowing how valuable having all-original parts on million-dollar cars, the restoration would probably be done quite differently. 

[packard12man]

West, thanks for the reply on the Maybelline Dietrich.  I enjoy researching the history on the individual Dietrich's.  Between the Chicago connection and the Gooding Article (referring to a sports sedan), I thought I may have been onto something.  Needless to say  - the Maybelline saga continues.  My condolences in the loss of your friend John Bohmer.  

[edinmass]

To take any information from any auction catalog is from a factual basis a very bad idea. The story of the donor car is well known among the Custom Dietrich circles. There is now only one possible missing Dietrich Custom that can be documented as surviving post war and falling off the radar. I have sniffed at it, as well as many others. I have some creditable feedback that the missing car may still exist and a possible region where it is. It’s all conjecture unless proven. Who knows……..time will tell. 

[Gunsmoke]

Edinmass, I'm always annoyed when you, whom a lot consider a very knowledgeable and helpful old car guy, especially within the high end of the market place, make such bold statements as "To take any information from any auction catalog is from a factual basis a very bad idea". While I'm not sure just what you intend to imply, I am sure the vast majority of sellers (and Auction Companies) try their best to fairly and accurately describe the cars they are offering as best they know the cars. Yes, as in all sales pitches, some level of license may be used, and potential buyers need to do their own checks and inquiries, but to imply all such sellers (you did say "any auction") are a bunch of circus barkers or crooks is just not fair.

[Matt Goist]

On 1/21/2023 at 2:40 PM, packard12man said:

Another installment;

 

Lovely coupe - purchased new by John Mecom - Texas Oil Baron.  This car remained in the family for decades.  Only known one produced for 1933.  Upon updating my files & thanks to this discussion, I thought the red car was a reproduction but in studying the licence plate it is the same car.  Great studio photos of the car in its present state. 

 

@packard12man Would you be willing to share your file you have on this car? I am its current caretaker. What are the origins of the B&W Photo of the man standing next to it? 

A deep inspection of the underside reveals hints of what it was red. It is definitely the same car. 

[Ed Luddy]

On 1/7/2023 at 2:29 PM, edinmass said:

 

One of the greatest sins of mankind………..the true definition of obscenity.

 

 

Okay, who is responsible for that??? I know tacky when I see it!

[alsancle]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:00 PM, Gunsmoke said:

Edinmass, I'm always annoyed when you, whom a lot consider a very knowledgeable and helpful old car guy, especially within the high end of the market place, make such bold statements as "To take any information from any auction catalog is from a factual basis a very bad idea". While I'm not sure just what you intend to imply, I am sure the vast majority of sellers (and Auction Companies) try their best to fairly and accurately describe the cars they are offering as best they know the cars. Yes, as in all sales pitches, some level of license may be used, and potential buyers need to do their own checks and inquiries, but to imply all such sellers (you did say "any auction") are a bunch of circus barkers or crooks is just not fair.

They never will outright lie.  But if you don't know what you are doing you will 100% get screwed.

Edited January 10 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:00 PM, Gunsmoke said:

Edinmass, I'm always annoyed when you, whom a lot consider a very knowledgeable and helpful old car guy, especially within the high end of the market place, make such bold statements as "To take any information from any auction catalog is from a factual basis a very bad idea". While I'm not sure just what you intend to imply, I am sure the vast majority of sellers (and Auction Companies) try their best to fairly and accurately describe the cars they are offering as best they know the cars. Yes, as in all sales pitches, some level of license may be used, and potential buyers need to do their own checks and inquiries, but to imply all such sellers (you did say "any auction") are a bunch of circus barkers or crooks is just not fair.

 

Why don’t you ask some of the big auction houses how many cars they bought back in the last three years. And how many lawsuits they disposed of quietly with nondisclosure agreements. 

[alsancle]

Descriptions should not be trusted for one simple reason. 95% of the time they are simply whatever the owner states. Usually the description will use words that tell you that. If you think about it, researching the history, authenticity, condition of a car is a tremendous amount of work and guys get paid thousands of dollars to do that. It would be impossible for a company to research every car they are selling, even the boutique houses that are selling expensive cars.

[Walt G]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

If you think about it, researching the history, authenticity, condition of a car is a tremendous amount of work

I totally agree with this, not from any standpoint on auction catalogs etc just trying to get the period information at all or find the resources of that era that are indeed fact.

Even some history that was written about 50 years ago by "experts" can be questioned, as with many comments here there is a lot of "opinions" and guessing/assuming as to what the real story is. Myth becomes fact very easily if around long enough  - yes, I have repeated that often and will continue to do so.

I personally cringe when someone says I am an expert, will never ever agree to that. I have just been so very very fortunate to be able to see or talk to people who were there when the history happened or have access to the information/history in original documentation.

Hey, I let a good friend know that a car he owned was referred to as a "BOTHA" body style after he bought it , even had a sales piece on it by the company that built the body stating that. 🙃🤩 fact is often stranger then fiction............................

[60FlatTop]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:05 PM, 1935Packard said:

90% of the wealthy guys that are new to collecting cars make incredibly poor decisions. 

A person who collects cars for their own toys is wealthy. Some just don't compare it correctly.

[packard12man]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:24 PM, Matt Goist said:

@packard12man Would you be willing to share your file you have on this car? I am its current caretaker. What are the origins of the B&W Photo of the man standing next to it? 

A deep inspection of the underside reveals hints of what it was red. It is definitely the same car. 

Matt, I think I acquired the B&W photo off of Flickr.  Don't remember the date or place.  I don't have a whole lot of info on '33's, wish I was of more help.  Being as Pebble is featuring Packards this year, I can only assume you will be showing a car???  I am hoping to attend and will try and look you up.  

  

The above 2 photos came from the Book "The Classic Car" by Kimes

 

The below 4 page article came from Car Collector 1995

[8E45E]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:47 AM, alsancle said:

Descriptions should not be trusted for one simple reason. 95% of the time they are simply whatever the owner states. Usually the description will use words that tell you that. If you think about it, researching the history, authenticity, condition of a car is a tremendous amount of work and guys get paid thousands of dollars to do that. It would be impossible for a company to research every car they are selling, even the boutique houses that are selling expensive cars.

It is FAR easier to document the history of a car that was sold new in England and remained there all its life.   First, the registration remains WITH THE CAR, even when it changes ownership.  Second, a car in England is usually complete with a LOGBOOK, documenting all the owners from new, along with any service work it may have had.

 

Craig

[Matt Goist]

I really do enjoy this thread, its turning into somewhat of a timeline for these amazing Individual Customs. I thought you all may enjoy a few photos of the 1006 Dietrich Coupe we have here. I just finished some major repairs and refurbishments on it.

I had the hood off during the repairs, testing and torquing period for the head studs. We almost left it off 😆 This car needed some very invasive engine work due to sitting....DRIVE YOUR CARS!! 🙂 Catch it in Miami at the MODA Concours on March 2nd and 3rd! 

[packard12man]

Matt, thank you for letting us ride along with the comings and goings of the big boy toys that you have your hands on.  The car looks great with the black walls.  Enjoy the show in Miami.  I'm sure it will be a very good show as RM does everything first class.  Any more photos of your travels and the show would be greatly appreciated.  

 

Brian

[V16]

Here is another picture of the Badenhausen custom Dietrich he affectionately named Blueboy. He told me many times that this was his favorite of all classics he owned and he owned a lot of classic cars over the years. I have a hand written list he gave me listing all the cars, what he paid and what he sold them for. I should post this sometime, it is fascinating! I only wish Bayard had invested in a better camera because his photos leave something to be desired. I guess he had his priorities, and it was his cars!

[V16]

Here is the car after an accident in December of 1949. I believe this car is in the Collier collection today. If for some reason they think the car is now devalued because it was in a serious wreck I would like them to know that I will be pleased to take it off their hands for a greatly reduced amount.