Making Axles for a 1910 EMF.

[Dandy Dave]

Yup. Back at it. Machining new axles for a 1910 EMF. Recieved stock to turn to Axles. 4140 X 1-1/8 ground finish. Here's the old axles. The reason for replacment is there is wear in the area of where the roller bearings ride. Also one wheel would not tighten on the taper and ran loose. Tapers were made too small at some point.

[Dandy Dave]

Turning ends to thread diameter and cutting tapers. Threads are 7/8 -14 on the wheel end and 3/4 -16 on the pinion end. Wheel taper is 3/4 of an inch to the foot. This is always checked with a dial indicator on an existing axle that fits correctly. I turned the taper for both axles on the wheel end first to save having the set up time twice if I completed one axle at a time. I also spun these between centers to keep everything concentric. This is done on a South Bend lathe that is 13 inch swing X 42 inch bed with a taper attachment.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[George K]

We made many axles over the years. Built them out of 4140 and 1144 Stress proof. Never saw a dimes worth of difference. 

[Dandy Dave]

Axles set up between centers with a steady rest. Cutting thread diameter for the pinion gear end. 

[Dandy Dave]

Taper end cut on both axles. 

[Dandy Dave]

Turning the taper for the pinion gear end. These ended up being 8 degrees total. 4 degees on a side. 

[Dandy Dave]

Threading. Always like to thread on a lathe. I also do this between centers as I can remove the axle to check the threads with the nut. If it needs a little more I can put it back in in the same place and not loose the "Timing" required to get the threads right.

Still need to cut the key ways and drill the holes for the cotters. More later.

[George K]

You are rocking and rolling 👍

[SC38dls]

Dave, you do beautiful work. My problem is we have the same name but certainly not the same skills or tools. I just have to find a way to get your better half to agree to adopt me! Then I’ll at least have access to the tools and your expertise to teach me how to use them!  Think about it! I know how to use a broom to clean up! 
dave s 

[redbaron1930]

Attached is the Car Dave is making the axles for. Eventually I will also post some pictures of the other rear axle parts.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, redbaron1930 said:

Attached is the Car Dave is making the axles for. Eventually I will also post some pictures of the other rear axle parts.

 

  I don't know!   Are you certain they will take the load?

 

  Ben

[redbaron1930]

4 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

  I don't know!   Are you certain they will take the load?

 

  Ben

The originals lasted 110 years, These are the same size as the originals and made out of a much tougher material.

[cudaman]

Great work!  For times when the wheel slides on too far because of wear on the axle or hub taper, the Model T Ford vendors sell various thickness conical shims that can take up the gap and allow the hub to fit correctly. 

 

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2505SH.aspx

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2505SHB.aspx

 

 

[Mark Shaw]

28 minutes ago, cudaman said:

Model T Ford vendors sell various thickness conical shims that can take up the gap and allow the hub to fit correctly.

You can also use a tin or aluminum can to make a conical shim.  This is relatively easy to do on rear wheels.

I did this for a friend while on tour with only a pair of scissors and a box cutter.  Just cut a rectangle from the middle of the can. 

Butt the short straight edge against the key, wrap it tight around the taper until it butts against the other side of the key. 

Cut it even with the key and carefully install the wheel while keeping the shim tight against the taper. 

[TAKerry]

Nice work Dave. I have spun a wood lathe more times than I could count but never had the pleasure of working with anything like you have. I would love to try that some day. Its nice that you have a device to cut the tapers. Nothing like that on my chineseum wood spinner.

[DFeeney]

I admire your skill,  It's something not everyone has the "Knack" for.

[Dandy Dave]

19 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

  I don't know!   Are you certain they will take the load?

 

  Ben

That Christmas magic keeps it together Ben. 😉

[Dandy Dave]

18 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

You can also use a tin or aluminum can to make a conical shim.  This is relatively easy to do on rear wheels.

I did this for a friend while on tour with only a pair of scissors and a box cutter.  Just cut a rectangle from the middle of the can. 

Butt the short straight edge against the key, wrap it tight around the taper until it butts against the other side of the key. 

Cut it even with the key and carefully install the wheel while keeping the shim tight against the taper. 

I remember you doing that on one of the Tours we were on together. Used an old beer can. Dandy Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

14 hours ago, DFeeney said:

I admire your skill,  It's something not everyone has the "Knack" for.

There is a certain amount of feel for this work that cannot be explained to a beginner. Either someone has it. Or they don't. Extreme patients is a must as it is very slow and tedious work. Long tapers can be harder to dial in than shorter ones. If you do not have the threading timed right you can wipe them out in a moment. In some cases there is a certian amount of guess and by golly like making the valves for the Otto engine. The more you cut the taper for a valve, or for the seat, the farther the stem will drop down. Stem lengths can be critical. Better a little long than too short as taking some off is a lot easier than putting some back on. Remember I had to make the valve heads larger to accommodate the seats. I did not have the engine sitting by my lathe. It was 38 miles away and I did not have the exhaust seat ground yet. Cutting things like keyways need to be centered and on the "money" as we say in shop talk. It can't be 49 cents, or 51 cents or it won't work correctly. Fifty cents or nothing. Nothing can be done quick and dirty. No beating things with a hammer to make them fit or duck tape to patch things up. I never could stand to watch a quick and dirty hammer mechanic that forces everything.    

[TAKerry]

Awe, c'mon Dave, sometimes all one needs is a bigger hammer!  LOL

 

How do you cut the threads? is there a jig or done by eye?

 

I had to make about 70 spindles for an 18th century home that had burned. They were about 36" long with a taper across most of the length. Even after that many, the taper was the hardest part to keep consistent, AND this was wood! I cant imagine in metal. 

[Dandy Dave]

1 minute ago, TAKerry said:

Awe, c'mon Dave, sometimes all one needs is a bigger hammer!  LOL

 

How do you cut the threads? is there a jig or done by eye?

 

I had to make about 70 spindles for an 18th century home that had burned. They were about 36" long with a taper across most of the length. Even after that many, the taper was the hardest part to keep consistent, AND this was wood! I cant imagine in metal. 

Hammers have there place. Knowing when to use one and how much force to apply is another thing. Some people should never have one or handle one.

The lathe has settings for threads per inch. Also there is a thread chasing dial and a half nut lever to time the rhythm to. It is the operators job to engage these at the proper time. I'll have to take some photos next time I'm there.

[EmTee]

I always enjoy watching an artist (of any kind) work their magic. 

[Zimm63]

Curious:  What sort of threading tool are you using?  

 

I have a lathe, but have not tried to cut threads yet.  

[wayne sheldon]

There are a lot of people in this hobby that consider shimming axle tapers to be hack work, or tractor mechanic approach to repairs. I am not one of them. While it isn't the best way to fix something, AS LONG AS there are not other damage or wear issues to be concerned about, a good taper shim properly installed should be safe and reliable for many tens of thousands of miles! 

That said, in the photos above, I do see a couple potential issues that I would be concerned about. So new axles are likely the right answer.

 

My main reason for posting a comment, is another issue for tapered shims. While different alloys have significant differences in strength and wear characteristics, generally speaking, aluminum should never be used for tapered shims. And certainly not between an axle and a hub on a motor vehicle. 

While it MIGHT be okay for a roadside patch to finish out the day? It should never be trusted beyond a couple hours. Aluminum suffers from a "cold flow" in which under large amounts of pressure, it literally squeezes much like putty. Given the hammering and pounding between the axle and the hub, the shim will become thinner in a short amount of miles. Thinner then becomes more loose, becomes hammered even more, and before you realize it, you are in a dangerous situation. The potential for hammering the nut off and maybe stripping the threads off the axle is there. And loose hubs are the number one cause of nasty wear on keys and keyways. Enough miles loose, and axles will be ruined or break due to hammering and cutting due to looseness.

I once took a model T rear end apart to rebuild it? And found the hub was loose. When I removed the nut, and pulled the hub off, I found the axle key beaten almost ready to shear in half lengthwise, and a chunk of the axle alongside the keyway (and bigger than the key!) fell out having cracked and broken more than the length of the key!

 

I have known a few people that liked using brass shims there. While there are some advantages to that, I personally prefer steel shims. Either way, a new shim should be tightened, then run for a short amount, and tightened again. Even steel will "give" a little, and can result in a hub becoming loose in a few miles. It should be run and rechecked as many times as it takes for it to not loosen in a couple hundred miles.

 

 

That axle key I mentioned above? Looked really funny. It looked like a four inch long miniature hourglass!

[Dandy Dave]

2 hours ago, Zimm63 said:

Curious:  What sort of threading tool are you using?  

 

I have a lathe, but have not tried to cut threads yet.  

I ground my own. It is just a common cobalt tool bit ground to 60 degrees. I'll have to post photos. Next time I'm at the shop I will take some of the thread gage used and bit I have in the holder. 

[George K]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:40 AM, Dandy Dave said:

Hammers have there place. Knowing when to use one and how much force to apply is another thing. Some people should never have one or handle one.

The lathe has settings for threads per inch. Also there is a thread chasing dial and a half nut lever to time the rhythm to. It is the operators job to engage these at the proper time. I'll have to take some photos next time I'm there.

Speaking of hammers.

[redbaron1930]

I though I would add some other pictures of this 1910 Trans axle rebuild;

Below are the original ring and pinion gears, note the crack in the ring gear and the 4 broken teeth on the pinion. Believe it or not they were still working and are not the reason I took it apart. I took it apart because the outer axle bearings were making ugly noises!

[redbaron1930]

Here is the differential carrier with new bushings installed and sized. I also remade the 2 thrust washers that position the carrier between the axle housing (similar to a model T setup)

[MikeC5]

Very nice work!  I have an old (1933 vintage) 9" South Bend C model and just recently got a set of change gears so I can practice making threads.  

[Dandy Dave]

Threading starts here... Quick Change gear box thread count chart. You need to know how many threads per inch (TPI) you need. Chose the proper gear settings. The last photo is a thread chasing dial. If you select 16 TPI first lever must be set in B position and second lever set in the slot below the 16. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Nice! Been a long time since I had access to a good machine like that!

[Dandy Dave]

Here's a threading gage. This is used to check the angle of the bit that you intend to cut the threads with or check the thread itself. Also to set the thread cutting bit square to what you are threading. Also the tool bit I used to cut the threads on the axles.  Often these bits need to be hand ground to have enough clearence for what you are threading.

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[DonMicheletti]

Dave,

 

I, too, have always enjoyed making unobtanium car parts for friends. It can be a challenge but also very rewarding.

Another of the fun parts of this hobby

[Dandy Dave]

The compound on the cross feed needs to be set to the proper angle to cut the threads. 30 degrees in this case. Here is another style of thread cutting tool shown in the bottom photo. I did not use that on this job because there is not enough clearance between where the threads end, and the shoulder of where the taper starts.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

So basically the machine is set for 16 threads to the inch in this case. The lathe is set in the lowest belt and back gear speed as possible. Being it is an even number of threads per inch you can pick any slash on the thread chasing dial and have the timing correct. An odd number of threads will have less places it can be engaged. The carriage will move 0.0625 of an inch for each full revolution of the drive head to obtain 16 TPI. The lever below the thread chasing dial is called the Halfnut lever and is mainly used for threading. The thread depth will be around 0.081. Start with the cross feed set on 0. Start with the compound feed on 0 and set to 30  degrees with the compound. front slash Or 60 degrees with the carriage, side slash. My lathe is a 1 for 1 on the dials. If I set it for 1 thousandths it will take 1/2 of that on each side. Some lathes are 2 for 1. These will cut 1 thousandths on each side equaling 2 thousands total. Advance the compound around 5 thousandths on a 1-1 machine. Watch the dial and engage the half nut when the lines are in the correct position. This will begin to cut the threads. Go to the end of the run and disengage the half nut lever. Back the cross feed out and bring the carriage back to the starting position. Set the cross feed back on 0 and advance the compound another 5 thousands. Engage to end of run and repeat until the desired depth of the thread is obtained.   

  

Edited December 24, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

So Dave,

You used new material to make those axles?  I just got some truck axles out of a junk yard and cut them down for my fifteen Olds.  I expect any way you do it will make better than original ones.

[JV Puleo]

Dave, did you use 4140 pre-hard or the annealed material? I'm making an axle for my Mitchell and I'm using the heat treated which I think may be as hard, or even harder than the original. I'm going to test it after it's machined and if it is softer than the original I'll have it hardened.

[Dandy Dave]

14 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

So Dave,

You used new material to make those axles?  I just got some truck axles out of a junk yard and cut them down for my fifteen Olds.  I expect any way you do it will make better than original ones.

New material.

[Dandy Dave]

12 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Dave, did you use 4140 pre-hard or the annealed material? I'm making an axle for my Mitchell and I'm using the heat treated which I think may be as hard, or even harder than the original. I'm going to test it after it's machined and if it is softer than the original I'll have it hardened.

Just off the shelf annealed. Too hard and they snap off easier.

[37S2de]

I know that I should just let this slide by, but the machinist in me can’t do it.  In the photos above, there are two photos of the compound setting on the lathe.  The text implies that to make 60 degree threads that the compound should be set at 60 degrees.

 

This is not correct.  

 

The second photo shows the compound set at about 29 1/2 to 30 degrees. This is the correct setting to cut 60 degree threads and should probably be emphasized in the text.

 

Tom