Rewiring a 1930 Rolls Royce 20/25.

[Dandy Dave]

More photos. We are making progress. Wire rats nest removed and new wires installed in the harness that runs between the Switch Box and the Disturbution Box.

 

[Dandy Dave]

More photos. Another of the SB to DB flex harness. I marked everything with tape so I know which terminals the wires go to. Also, Covers off of the rear frame where the conduit runs and ends to feed the tail lights.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Could use a little help here. We have three fuse wire holders missing. Some of the wiring was cobbed in this car to bypass the missing fuses by a previous owner or his mechanic. Anyone have any? 

 

[Dandy Dave]

And another problem. In the wiring diagram is a ballast marked, "Field Resistances". I cannot find one on this car. The 20/25 book we have for the car is a few years newer that the car I'm working on. The car is a 1930, The book is 1932. If it is suppose to be on this car where is it suppose to be located? Or was this something used on later 20/25's and was never on this car? Looking at the switch from this car I do not have an R1 or R2 terminal. Which from experiance should be, "Resistance 1 & 2. This switch has numbers 1-7 and GL which feeds the courtesy lights. This, "field resistances" would be wired in with the Dynamo and Cutout.   

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Moving right along. The new battery cable to starter switch wire, and the main feed wire, is in the conduit on the left side of the car. 

 

[Dandy Dave]

Also we have some of these wiring nuts and horns missing. These connect where the conduit ends and then the wires continue to feed the lights. We need 4 nuts and 5 horns. There are 6 of each all together. 4 in the front and 2 in the rear. 

 

[Peter R.]

On 8/18/2022 at 2:57 PM, George Cole said:

I'm not trying to hijack your thread Dandy Dave, but do  your semaphores look like these on my Jag?  And yes, they are lighted for use at night.  A vintage Jag parts dealer in the UK has new ones for $500 per pair.  Regardless of whether they are NOS or repros, I'm sure they are in very limited quantity.  I probably should bite the bullet and buy a pair of them just in case some smart-assed kid (or adult) decides to grab one of mine and break it off, when I'm demonstrating them at a show.  And how often do you see all brass door hinges and pins with grease fittings?

George,

Maybe I can help you with some spare semaphores. I have a box full of different semaphores as well as some Lucas semaphore spare parts such as coils etc. Peter

[George Cole]

56 minutes ago, Peter R. said:

George,

Maybe I can help you with some spare semaphores. I have a box full of different semaphores as well as some Lucas semaphore spare parts such as coils etc. Peter

PM sent.

[Peter R.]

On 8/18/2022 at 2:57 PM, George Cole said:

I probably should bite the bullet and buy a pair of them just in case some smart-assed kid (or adult) decides to grab one of mine and break it off, when I'm demonstrating them at a show.

One of my workshop rules…..

 

[JACK M]

Crewe Cutters in Grants Pass Oregon may have the parts you need.

I bought a few parts for a Bentley I used to own.

 

[8E45E]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:54 AM, JACK M said:

WOW ! A whole box of em. 

I would have probably bought a pair or two just cuz.

I'm one who bought a pair "just cuz".

 

I do still have the vendor's card where I can pass along his contact info if one is seriously interested in a set.  

 

Craig

[Dandy Dave]

Here's photo's of one of the headlights with a "Dipper Coil" that tips the reflector. They both have it.

 

[Dandy Dave]

Lots of nice and new wire hanging everywhere. I have the headlight wires and side light wires running though the Conduit from the mid section forward. I find more often that taking the old stiff wire out is harder than pulling the new wires though. We still need to do the rear section to feed the tail and brake lights.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

On 8/18/2022 at 8:57 AM, George Cole said:

I'm not trying to hijack your thread Dandy Dave, but do  your semaphores look like these on my Jag?  And yes, they are lighted for use at night.  A vintage Jag parts dealer in the UK has new ones for $500 per pair.  Regardless of whether they are NOS or repros, I'm sure they are in very limited quantity.  I probably should bite the bullet and buy a pair of them just in case some smart-assed kid (or adult) decides to grab one of mine and break it off, when I'm demonstrating them at a show.  And how often do you see all brass door hinges and pins with grease fittings?

 

Just re-read this. No, actually no semaphores on this 1930 Rolls George. Signal lights were added at some point in the 1960's though. First set of semaphores I ever remember seeing was on a 1920's International truck a friend had. One pulled a rope in the cab to make the left or right arm work. He had them cut out like a hand and arm. As a young fellow I thought it was quite hilarious. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

To take a short break from the intensity of this job, here is the last article written by John Utz, long time RROC owner, Flying Lady editor and contributor. That's me testing the cut out on 201RY. I think that was in the 1995 or 1996 Flying Lady with three Silver Spurs on the cover.

 

The article generally says don't do the work as a Rolls-Royce mechanic, do it like an engineer. Assumptions from past experience can trick you.

[edinmass]

Just saw this thread since I’m still on the west coast. Dave……you ARE crazy. I spent a year of my life- one week doing a similar job. No amount of compensation covers the challenges that a job like this presents. I’m certain you will push through it. I would double my shop rate and require a lifetime supply of Crown Royal to take this job on. Your friend/customer is very fortunate to have you take on this project. In the end, pulling the wires are easy…….dealing with switches, fuses, and missing components are the real challenge. There are only five people in the world I will do under dash work for now……I’m just too old and stiff. It takes a week to recover after spending a few hours laying on my back with my feet up over the top of the front seat. I did a radio job on a 34 Packard two weeks ago, and I’m still not 100 percent. 
 

When it comes to this job……..”endeavor to persevere!”

Edited August 27, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

34 minutes ago, edinmass said:

”endeavor to persevere!”

Edinmass- even though Josey Wales (Clint Eastwood) had drifted off to sleep when Chief Dan George uttered the words "endeavor to persevere"- you said a mouthful.  Doing a job like this one is a matter for "True Grit".  

 

To Dandy Dave- You know why brits drink warm beer, right?  It's because Lucas made the refrigerator...

 

Seriously- great project.  I've done a few rewiring projects on old cars and boats and part of the hard work is just figuring out what the wiring looked like when it came from the factory.  I re-wired my 1931 Buick after the previous owner tore all the wiring out of the car.  The first step in the Harnesses Unlimited installation manual started with the words "Before removing the old wire harness note carefully how it is routed".  I lucked out because I was able to get original Buick wiring drawings, 5 pages of them, that depicted how the harness was routed.    An earlier project was re-wiring of a 1965 20ft Chris Craft Sea Skiff.  I was able to get a wiring diagram only from Mariners Museum in Newport News VA.  From the diagram I was able to separate the original wiring from all the bastardized wiring that had been added, and in many cases abandoned, and left on the boat.  The picture below shows what I found that was added and abandoned, and except for the tired switches also shown, had no effect on operation of the electrical equipment on the boat...

 

Dave 

[edinmass]

Lucas “The Prince of Darkness.” 
 

Lucas “ The inventor of the short circuit.”

 

Lucas headlight switch marked: Off-Dim-Flicker

 

[auburnseeker]

37 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Lucas headlight switch marked: Off-Dim-Flicker

I had never heard that one.  Love it.   

[1937hd45]

I don't understand electrical stuff, but always follow rewiring posts for some reason, like visiting the snake house in a zoo. I understand less with every reading, glad the world has people that can do the work. 

 

Bob  

[JV Puleo]

I find wiring like this a challenge. I have to be in the right frame of mind and if I'm the slightest bit distracted I lose my place. Years ago I worked with a gentleman who was fantastic at it...he'd just glance at the wiring chart and go right to the problem. I asked him how he did it. He look over his glasses at me and said "I was a radar repairman in the Air Force."

[wayne sheldon]

Ah, simplicity itself! Try building a headend for a major private cable television system with over twenty off-air channels and about fifty satellite channels!  Each off-air channel had at least four cables between splitters and combiners, the modulator, the filters and more. Some single channels could have eight or ten cables in its dedicated circuit! The satellite channels were worse! The whole thing took seven foot tall racks along thirty feet of wall! Hundreds of pieces of equipment! About five hundred cables! Dozens of them running twenty to fifty feet in length including cable trays and the top to bottom as well as the distance across the wall!

I had to know and understand each and every piece.

[TTR]

I find electrical/wiring jobs like this quite enjoyable and while I've done some pre-war boats and cars (mostly from scratch, including drawing my own color-coded diagrams), most of my experiences are on vehicles with much more complicated and comprehensive systems than found on anything pre-war.

 

Try wiring (from scratch) a '50s/'60s American luxury limousines with Italian made coachwork or early '70s V12 Ferrari models for which factory issued at least 4 different wiring diagrams during the models production timeline, but none are nowhere near complete nor correct, not to mention the cars themselves having been built with different wire colors and unexpected changes of them hidden somewhere in the loom, which in itself is almost entirely made into a single form and requires a large part of the car to be disassembled for removal and/or installation.

 

But like Ed pointed out, it's the broken, incorrect or missing components at the end of various wires that makes these jobs at times much more difficult and time consuming than one might think, especially if needed/required replacements are something close to unobtainium.

 

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I like wiring.  I find it easier to begin at the end!   Start at the item to which I want the power to go. Back to an/the origin of the power.  Works for me any way. 

 

  Ben

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Ah, simplicity itself! Try building a headend for a major private cable television system with over twenty off-air channels and about fifty satellite channels!  Each off-air channel had at least four cables between splitters and combiners, the modulator, the filters and more. Some single channels could have eight or ten cables in its dedicated circuit! The satellite channels were worse! The whole thing took seven foot tall racks along thirty feet of wall! Hundreds of pieces of equipment! About five hundred cables! Dozens of them running twenty to fifty feet in length including cable trays and the top to bottom as well as the distance across the wall!

I had to know and understand each and every piece.

The Rolls electrical engineers' descendants designed that!

 

Dave, you should have called Painless and converted everything to modern wiring! 🧐

 

JK. I enjoy wiring and electrical challenges myself, but I have never taken on anything as overengineered as a high end Britcar- and I worked in both nuclear and fossil electric plants.

 

The comment about "do it like an engineer" sums up the British and German approach to building automobiles.

[Larry Schramm]

5 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

as overengineered as a high end Britcar- and I worked in both nuclear and fossil electric plants.

 

The comment about "do it like an engineer" sums up the British and German approach to building automobiles.

 

My philosophy of much engineering work is Just because you can does not mean you should.!!

[60FlatTop]

12 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

My philosophy of much engineering work is Just because you can does not mean you should.!!

"The man with the briefcase said there was grant money out there and if there is it is going to be ours".

 

Two wind turbines and a cogeneration plant for my run down, poorly maintained city, please".

[rocketraider]

49 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

"The man with the briefcase said there was grant money out there and if there is it is going to be ours".

 

Two wind turbines and a cogeneration plant for my run down, poorly maintained city, please".

Since we can choose only one "like" option, guess I have to go emoji! It would have worked better in the 2035 thread, but well said and played, sir!

 

😺👍🤙😆😃👏

[Dandy Dave]

On 8/27/2022 at 1:34 PM, 1937hd45 said:

I don't understand electrical stuff, but always follow rewiring posts for some reason, like visiting the snake house in a zoo. I understand less with every reading, glad the world has people that can do the work. 

 

Bob  

It is like following a road map Bob. Make sure all the cross roads, bridges, and junctions are connected. If everything is right, and you turn on the switch, then the magic happens. 😁 

[rocketraider]

3 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

It is like following a road map Bob. Make sure all the cross roads, bridges, and junctions are connected. If everything is right, and you turn on the switch, then the magic happens. 😁 

And if you let all the smoke out, the magic goes away😫🤬

[60FlatTop]

Sometimes making a ladder diagram will help. Then you focus on three things; the conductor, the switch, and the load. I used to teach an apprenticeship program back around the time they had that Kibbles and Bits commercial with the dog. I taught the class to look at the diagram saying "switches and loads" the way the dog said "Kibbles and bits". It worked really well. Just doing something that makes you laugh can make the job go better.

 

We once built a $50,000,000 research building and I recommended the operations instructions be written in verse similar to the navigation songs of the South Sea Islanders. That wasn't in the engineering standards and didn't go over well. But a little 20/25 ditty might be just the thing.

[1937hd45]

39 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Sometimes making a ladder diagram will help. Then you focus on three things; the conductor, the switch, and the load. I used to teach an apprenticeship program back around the time they had that Kibbles and Bits commercial with the dog. I taught the class to look at the diagram saying "switches and loads" the way the dog said "Kibbles and bits". It worked really well. Just doing something that makes you laugh can make the job go better.

 

We once built a $50,000,000 research building and I recommended the operations instructions be written in verse similar to the navigation songs of the South Sea Islanders. That wasn't in the engineering standards and didn't go over well. But a little 20/25 ditty might be just the thing.

Thanks for adding another electrical phrase I never read before "Ladder Diagram". The more I read the less I understand. 

[Dandy Dave]

21 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Thanks for adding another electrical phrase I never read before "Ladder Diagram". The more I read the less I understand. 

I guess some old dogs just can't learn new tricks. It gets a little late in the game to learn all this modern tech, never mind what was done 100 + years ago.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

21 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Thanks for adding another electrical phrase I never read before "Ladder Diagram". The more I read the less I understand. 

 

 Damn, glad you said that. Now I don't need to confess!

 

  Ben

[Dandy Dave]

7 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Damn, glad you said that. Now I don't need to confess!

 

  Ben

It is the kind of thing either you understand it, or you don't. Most don't. Crazy thing is that I would do another one of these projects on a pre war Rolls. By the way, Did you fellows know that the electrons flow from Negative to Positive? And Model T Ford flywheel magnetos work on AC. 9 to 12 volt. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Ladder diagrams. Venn diagrams. Logic trees. Truth tables.😳😩😬🤪🤯

 

All have "logic" as a common denominator.

 

One of my favorite quotes, from musician Ian Hunter:

"There's no longer logic, so therefore no fear". 

 

Dave, have you lost your fear of a Rolls-Royce electrical system?🧐

[1937hd45]

3 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

It is the kind of thing either you understand it, or you don't. Most don't. Crazy thing is that I would do another one of these projects on a pre war Rolls. By the way, Did you fellows know that the electrons flow from Negative to Positive? And Model T Ford flywheel magnetos work on AC. 9 to 12 volt. 

Must be and Edison friendship based reason for the AC deal. Too late in life to try and understand something than can burn your car up and the garage and house with it. 

[George K]

Thought this chart could be useful in your quest. I’m working on rewiring a automobile myself. 

[edinmass]

George that’s obviously the wiring diagram for a White steamer.

Edited August 30, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

9 minutes ago, edinmass said:

George that’s obviously the wiring diagram for a White steamer.

I should of known as the second symbol is a tea cup. You guys in the trade are on the ball. I borrowed that chart for this guy.