1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster

[JV Puleo]

Might be. I've certainly seen that illustration. Heldt discussed the difference between hot and cold rivets. As you know, I'm inclined to use bolts, with the proviso that I ream each hole to fit precisely. Henry Royce called it "sewing" the parts together and never used a bolt bigger than 3/8". The originals have a square head and are not threaded to the head. Those are both features I can't reproduce but I am going to have a tapered reamer ground to make a hole .005 smaller than the thread dimension. That may distort the threads a little going in but the nut will still go on and be all the tighter for the slight distortion.

 

No snow today, thank G-d...but it was bitterly cold over the weekend and some of my pipes froze...oh well, I sort of expect that.

 

Also, rivets can loosen as well. When I stripped down my 1910 REO years ago you could lay the frame on the floor and pick one corner up 3"...the other three corners didn't move!

Edited January 18, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

All -

   Thank you for your honest comments urging the use of rivets in lieu of bolts to replace the originally riveted-in brackets.

   I went to several websites which deal with installing frame rivets. It looks like if I buy a few specialized tools, I should be able to use original rivets after all. I’ve never riveted, but if I can do some of the other more skilled restoration things I can do, I should be able to learn riveting. 
    I’ve just purchased a rivet air tool, a lot of rivets, rivet back bar clamps, and a bucking bar. Now i just need to figure out how to use an air hammer and heat the rivets. Any advice?

   Wish me luck.

   Ron

[HarryLime]

Use a rivet gun and not an air hammer . There is a BIG difference in how they perform . I would recommend a 7X rivet gun . Lots of power to shoot the rivet quick . An undersize gun will not upset the rivet , just worry it to death .

[ron hausmann]

All - Update as of January 22, 2022:

1. Decided to use rivets instead of bolts after much consultation. Went to several local frame shops and learned that nobody commercially uses frame rivets. So hiring somebody is out.

2. Shopped around and bought 60 rivets 5/16”, rivet tools, and a 7x rivet hammer. Not that expensive!

3. Finished bolting in all four front spring brackets and four engine mounts. Will remove bolts progressively once riveting commences.
4. Cleaned more parts including drive shaft and universals.

5. Selected paint shop for help painting large body panels. I will do chassis and small parts and assembly.

6. narrowed down yellow colors to use to a deep yellow by PPG. Or successor to DuPont.

7. Dropped off springs, wheel hubs, drums, steering arms, and front axle to sandblaster for blasting and powder coating base coat.

8. Picked up newly serviced rear axle/differential.

    This coming week we plan to;

a. Sand and paint rear axle/differential.

b. Pick up springs and chassis parts from blaster for me to finish paint.

c. Decide what finish paint color to use
D. Drop off four fenders, two side aprons, and hood to finish paint shop for long term concours level painting.

e. Do some test riveting and rivet heating.

f. Start cleaning and finishing steering column, water outlets, water pipes, and engine looms.

   Ron Hausmann  P.E.
 

[hursst]

Glad to hear you are doing rivets.  That is in the spirit of our club, it will be authentic, and you'll learn yet another new skill.

[ron hausmann]

All - Status as of January 28, 2022;

1. Received rivet tools, rivets, and rivet gun. Am practicing because I’ve never used a rivet gun.

2. Bought a small oxyacetylene torch setup and tools to use to preheat rivets. Buying a small furnace was the same money and I will get a lot more use out of the torch setup. Need to practice.

3. Picked up serviced radiator from radiator shop. Put unrestored radiator shroud on it to assure correct fit.

4. Continued painting brake, spring, and axle fittings yellow. Bold.

5. Started wood work reinforcement and repair on body. Wood is in pretty good shape but 100-year-old plyscore wood is delaminating so I am reinforcing it at stress points. 
     This coming week, I hope to 

a. Get riveting of brackets on to frame done. I’m a bit intimidated but will move ahead with this.

b. Sandblaster should be done blasting and powder outing axle, steering ,spring and other major parts.

c. Drop off rear axle to be sandblasted. I will paint it because it’s liquid oil cannot take powder coat bake.

d. Continue painting drive shaft and other small chassis parts. 
e. Continue body wood reinforcement and repairs.

[Luv2Wrench]

Rivet gun is a smart choice as they are much easier to control.  With an air hammer it is rather trivial to have it suddenly slip off and hammer your finger.  Don't ask me how I know. 

[John_Mereness]

Ron, thank you for all the help on the Kissel starter end plate !!!

[ron hausmann]

All - here is status as of Saturday February 5, 2022;

1. Continued painting numerous chassis parts yellow. Using Rustoleum JD Yellow which is a match to DuPont YS-379 which is being used for body and fenders. That color has been used on another recent Gold Bug restoration.

2. Spent several days carving the replacement base ledger timber for the body frame. Laminated several pieces of 3/4” oak together and used planer tools to recreate the part. Kind of proud of how it fits.

3. Epoxy glued new ledger timber in place and secured it with long lag bolts and thick metal plates. Nailed body panels undersides to timber. These plates and nails had to be placed carefully where they would not be visible and where they would not interfere with later Woodwork and frame.

4. Picked up rear axle which has been sandblasted

next week plans - - - - 

a. Pant and finish rear axle.

b. Start assembling steering knuckles onto front axle to be ready to mount.

C. Do sub-assembly of tie rod, drag link, and connections. 
d. Continue woodwork for front seat compartment and side panels.

e. Start fitment of side seats into openings and slides.

f. Maybe build up courage to start learning propanevyorch and heating hot rivets 

Thankyou. Ron Hausmann P.E.

[ron hausmann]

All - progress as of Super Bowl Sunday, Feb. 13, 2022.

     Making very steady progress on rebuilding wood! Since the car was stored statically in a dirt floor shed from 1956 until I bought it in 2016, (60 years) the dry body wood generally swelled in the damp darkness. Now that it’s in a heated garage, every original wood screw needs to be tightened. The drawer seats were gunked up and the interior slides were crusty. Now that these have been cleaned and dried, they slide well. Kissels had very meticulous wood worked frames and I’m tediously replicating every piece. Here’s progress:

1. Picked up rear axle from sandblaster and readied it for painting.

2. Removed non-stock drawer sides from side-seat mechanisms and cleaned everything left side.

3. Rebuilt left side wood on side seat slider. This involved infusing cracks and screws with epoxy. 
4. Finished rebuilding front seat base and under-seat compartments. Very detailed carved oak.

5. Finished painting all the loose chassis parts yellow. Now stored for future use.

6. replaced some interior body oak at the side seat lips and heavily epoxied these parts on.

     In the coming two weeks I will:

A. Finish rivet work on the bare frame

B. Transport bare frame to sandblaster to be blasted and powder coated.

C. Start sub-assembly of loose chassis components.

D. Continue resurrection of side seat slides and wood.

E. Start refinishing and clearning of two rear trunk compartments.

     Ron Hausmann P.E.

[1912Staver]

Something you may wish to re - consider is powder coating the frame. Powder coating isn't my favorite finish at the best of times . For a few reasons , number 1, it is completely incorrect for any vintage car as far as period correctness , color and appearance go. But more importantly on things like vintage car frames are concerned is that powder coat will crack and let moisture get between the plastic and the metal which in turn leads to a spreading of the broken bond over time. This is due to the fact that vintage car frame parts move slightly in relation to each other as the car travels over the road, and of course the rougher the road, the more the movement. This slight movement is the same reason you don't want to weld parts of a otherwise riveted together frame.  Regular paint will do this as well if it is applied too thick near where individual parts are riveted together. Most factory frame paint is reasonably thin and allows the parts to  " work " a bit without cracking.

 

 Powder coat is probably fine on something like a front beam axle .

[prewarnut]

+1 on above. I think powder coating can be good for parts without any real stressors, loads or friction/abrasion. Perhaps it is good for bolt-on accessories. My experience was powder coating rims on a high performance car with low profile tires. The first guy I had mounting new tires did the powder coating for me too so it all looked mint. After that, any time I needed tires dismounted and remounted I would get 1/2 to 1 inch chunks off of the lip of the rim. The force of the beaded tire going on/off was no match to original: age-old cured paint.

[pmhowe]

I'm intrigued, and I'd like to learn more. I have some rather shabby 19" Dunlop wire wheels that I was planning to have powder coated. Not a good thing to do? I thought that was the very best way to go. If not, what is the best wy to go?

PMH

[1912Staver]

Wire wheels with adjustable spokes like your Dunlop's are a really bad candidate for powder coating. In high stress situations like hard cornering the spokes will move at both at the hub and at the rim. You will end up with cracked powder coating and if anything even more corrosion over time where the spokes contact the hub and rim. And the larger the wheel diameter the more movement you are going to get, 19 in is a pretty large diameter wire wheel. Much more flexible than a 13 in. on a MG Midget or similar.  Adjustable spoke wheels need occasional truing and adjustment to maintain correct spoke tension . If you powercoat the wheel this normal wheel maintenance becomes impossible without stripping the coating. 

 Best thing to do with your wheels is dismantle, bead blast all the parts , re assemble , true and correctly tension. lightly paint them with silver paint as original. Probably no cheaper than new wheels, especially if your wheel guy insists on only using new spokes, but the quality of the O.E.M. , British made wheel is quite a bit better than the modern replacements that are often made in India.

 Welded spoke wheels like many vintage car wheels are probably OK for powder coat, Model A Fords, lots of cheaper early 1930's cars etc.

Edited February 14, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

All - Status of restoration as of February 25, 2022. Less progress as we took some time off to vacation with granddaughter.

1.  continued reinforcing, cleaning, and lubricating side seat openings. These were swollen due to moisture.

2. continued and completed rebuilding of side seats and frames. Had to replace some frayed oak.

3. Found the initials of the wood worked who carved the oak frame hidden within the side seat chamber. His initials were H. H. According to the Kissel museum who researched for me, there were two persons named Helmer Hanson and Herbert Hahn who worked in the bodywork section of Kissel factory in the 1920’s. whomeve4 carved these initials, he or she was very proud.

4. started finishing and painting the rear axle.

5. nailed and glued front steel cowl plate onto front of car. Made it 100% flush.

6. screwed and trued front seat retainer metal around front seat structure. Fit great onto my new wood.

    Note that most Kissel woodwork members are stamped with their “build number”. You can see it on many of these photos. This was needed because wood frames were hand built and the factory carpenters needed to keep track of matched pieces like doors, drawers, and the like. This cars build number is 15273.

    Next week I will get with a local welder guy to help me apply the rivets to the frame. I will also paint it then because transport now is too problematic now and I can paint it.

    I will also start assembling the brakes, spindle mechanisms, and springs with shakles.

    Thank you. Ron Hausmann P.E.
 

[95Cardinal]

Ron, you're really making excellent progress on this project.

Keep up the great work!

 

 

[ron hausmann]

Status as of March 4 , 2022

1. Side seat sliders have been finish primed and ready for finishin*.

2. Side doors have been fitted and readied for full final paint.

3.:first trunk compartment has been be4n cle@mec, scrub Ed, and door replaced.

4. Have lined  pro welder to help me install rivets next week.
5. Finish painted last of under seat wood caps and last of rear axle.

6. created new cove4 for hidden compartment with g trunk.

thank you.

ron hausmann

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by ron hausmann
Mistake (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

Ron, your restoration photos show us body construction details which is great. What covers this configuration against water intrusion or getting abraded by rubbing on it? Does the leather and padding just envelop over and around it?

- Dan.

 

 

[ron hausmann]

23 hours ago, prewarnut said:

Ron, your restoration photos show us body construction details which is great. What covers this configuration against water intrusion or getting abraded by rubbing on it? Does the leather and padding just envelop over and around it?

- Dan.

 

 

Dan,

     This is covered by several fabric and then leather layers which are finish nailed into that gray ash nailer. That nailer is critical so that’s why I strengthened it with “west system” epoxy wood treatment.

     Take care. Ron 

[ron hausmann]

All - here’s an update and status as of March 12, 2022.

   Spent most of this past week doing wood repair. The oak and ash crossmember frames underneath the trunk supports were dry rotted. Hinges mount there so I had no alternative but to carefully chip out the wood from underneath and carve new oak members to fit. This entails taking apart the trunk drain gutters and included fitment of hinge bodies. Also loosening the metal nails. All of this is tedious carving and careful work!

    In process, found that of the four SOSS 121 style hinges for the two trunks, one was damaged.  I’ll use it but will need to find a replacement. Kissel was a prolific user of SOSS HIDDEN HINGES, using different sizes in different models. SOSs discontinued these decades and decades ago.  I’m trying to getting replacements but those are hens teeth.

    This coming week I’ll finish fitting the trunk lids and hinges and re- nail all of the wood and metal around those lips. Then I’ll epoxy everything down permanently.

    Also thought I would attach a professional photograph that I had shot of my existing Gold Bug from last year. 
   Thanks you. Ron Hausmann P.E.

[hursst]

True craftmanship there.  You would make the original assembly workers proud.  Great updates, keep them coming.

[ryan95]

Ron, your work has been an inspiration to me with my restoration. I have been quietly following along on your project until now. Since you mentioned nails, can I ask what you're using for body nails? I am about to start adding sheet metal to the Moon body. I bought some body nails from Restoration Supply a while back, but I think they are too thick and will split the wood. I also have some thinner 16ga wire nails that I am thinking of using. It must sounds like a silly thing for me to be concerned with, but pounding in a thousand little nails is a commitment. 

[ron hausmann]

10 hours ago, ryan95 said:

Ron, your work has been an inspiration to me with my restoration. I have been quietly following along on your project until now. Since you mentioned nails, can I ask what you're using for body nails? I am about to start adding sheet metal to the Moon body. I bought some body nails from Restoration Supply a while back, but I think they are too thick and will split the wood. I also have some thinner 16ga wire nails that I am thinking of using. It must sounds like a silly thing for me to be concerned with, but pounding in a thousand little nails is a commitment. 

Ryan,

     I use the thinnest wire nails with the thinnest big heads that I can find at Lowes or Home Depot. 1”, 3/4”, 1 1/4” lengths depending on where. I actually drill the metal and pre drill the holes into the wood 1/4” or so to avoid splitting. I use a hammer and needle nose pliers to position the nails to drive them. Then I usually end up using a flat headed punch for the last whacks. That seems to set the nail deeper and is safer to avoid metal damage. Finally, I coat my nail work in risky areas with a fine coat of epoxy so that those nails won’t work free.

     Tedious but important work.

     Ron Hausmann P.E.

[ryan95]

Thanks Ron. That's exactly what I was looking for. 

[ron hausmann]

3 hours ago, ryan95 said:

Thanks Ron. That's exactly what I was looking for. 

Examples 

[ryan95]

What do you do about the zinc plating that is found on most modern nails? Do you leave it, strip it, or do you find nails that aren't plated? I think they should all end up with primer and paint covering them, but it's one other thought I have had.

[1912Staver]

Any of the original body nails I have removed in the past are surprisingly thick for their size. And often with tiny serrations to improve the grip.  I have never bought any of Restoration Hardware's nails , but there is a good chance they are quite close to what many body builders originally used. I am sure they didn't drill very small pilot holes in the old days, but there would be nothing preventing a person from doing so during a modern restoration if splitting the wood becomes a problem.

 Very interesting how Kissel made that trunk opening rain gutter. It makes me think the sheet metal on your body was largely hand formed at the factory. If Kissel had  used forming dies for the metal skin I expect that rain gutter would have been made as one piece with the trunk openings surrounding sheet metal.

 I have long admired Kissel's in general and Gold Bugs in particular. Your restoration thread is teaching so much I could never have learned any other way about these cars. { except actually owning one myself, but that is very unlikely I am afraid }

 Keep up the great work ! And the great documentation of the process!

Edited March 14, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Any of the original body nails I have removed in the past are surprisingly thick for their size. And often with tiny serrations to improve the grip.  I have never bought any of Restoration Hardware's nails , but there is a good chance they are quite close to what many body builders originally used. I am sure they didn't drill very small pilot holes in the old days, but there would be nothing preventing a person from doing so during a modern restoration if splitting the wood becomes a problem.

 Very interesting how Kissel made that trunk opening rain gutter. It makes me think the sheet metal on your body was largely hand formed at the factory. If Kissel had  used forming dies for the metal skin I expect that rain gutter would have been made as one piece with the trunk openings surrounding sheet metal.

 I have long admired Kissel's in general and Gold Bugs in particular. Your restoration thread is teaching so much I could never have learned any other way about these cars. { except actually owning one myself, but that is very unlikely I am afraid }

 Keep up the great work ! And the great documentation of the process!

1912 Staver - while Kissels were very finely made cars externally, the gutters are, to me, surprisingly sloppily made. They are sheet aluminum as the body. Made in three pieces and glued ends nailed in. My restoration is actually better quality on these than the original one as manufactured. Thank God the external body is excellently made.

ron hausmann 

[ron hausmann]

1912Staver -

     All Kissel bodies and fenders 1916-1927 were mandrel formed at the plant. They did not use stampings/dies. Each metal body piece. piece was hand fitted over a hand built wooden frame. Yes these were all supposed to be the same dimensions but because they were hand built, they DO vary. After a run of fenders, Kissel would match sets of left and rights because there were variations expected. And every wood subassembly like doors and trunks are stamp coded with a number to match the body to which they were made.

    This drives a Kissel restorer nuts!

Ron Hausmann

[ron hausmann]

4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Any of the original body nails I have removed in the past are surprisingly thick for their size. And often with tiny serrations to improve the grip.  I have never bought any of Restoration Hardware's nails , but there is a good chance they are quite close to what many body builders originally used. I am sure they didn't drill very small pilot holes in the old days, but there would be nothing preventing a person from doing so during a modern restoration if splitting the wood becomes a problem.

 Very interesting how Kissel made that trunk opening rain gutter. It makes me think the sheet metal on your body was largely hand formed at the factory. If Kissel had  used forming dies for the metal skin I expect that rain gutter would have been made as one piece with the trunk openings surrounding sheet metal.

 I have long admired Kissel's in general and Gold Bugs in particular. Your restoration thread is teaching so much I could never have learned any other way about these cars. { except actually owning one myself, but that is very unlikely I am afraid }

 Keep up the great work ! And the great documentation of the process!

1912 Staver - the gutters are to me, surprisingly sloppily made. They are sheet aluminum as the body. Made in three pieces and glued ends nailed in. My restoration is actually better quality on these than the original one as manufactured. 

[1912Staver]

Thanks for confirming. Seeing your detailed photo's , panel fabrication  such as you are describing is pretty much what I was picturing in my mind.

[ron hausmann]

All - here is status as of March 19, 2022. A lot of progress:

1. Gas tank has been body-worked and sealed and painted. Ready to go!

2. top rear trunk lids have been fitted and hinges have been glued into new wood mounts. They function well. 3. Trunk gutters have been straightened better than they were when new. Primed.

4. Hot rivets have been used to fasten the engine mounts and front spring mounts. For those of you who’ve never hot-riveted, it’s easy if you have a strong helper and the right tools. I’m kinda proud of how these rivets turned out and happy I used rivets instead of bolts.

5. damaged front frame where it had spring mount burned out has been carefully rewelded together and ground back all as new.

6. Cockpit floor boards have been cut, sanded, and shaped in readiness for the pyramid aluminum flooring material covering and aluminum ribbed edging. The spaces between the pieces are to accommodate the aluminum edge pieces not yet made.

7. a beautiful re- wound Remy Generator has been picked up for the car, after a two-year restoration !

     These coming two weeks will see the frame, which is now completely finished, taken to be sandblasted and powder coated. 
     I’ll also finish some of the floor covering work in the cockpit and finish wood repairs inside and under the trunks.

    Ron Hausmann P.E. 

[edinmass]

Looks great.........

[old car fan]

Awesome 

[ericmac]

I am greatly enjoying watching your progress on what will be a truly magnificent car. Your work is inspiring!

[ron hausmann]

Status as of March 28, 2022.

1. Floor plates wood for the cockpit have been cut and painted and ready to trim with metal.

2. Metal pyramid plate has been cut for each floor plate and epoxied on. Later I will cut holes for pedals, cables, gear shift, etc. From past mistakes, these plates are 1/4” set back from wood to accommodate edge trim strips which have an interior radius.

3. Metal ribbed trim strips have been back ordered from restoration supply 

4. Work on wood replacement for rear trunks continues. Cutting oak.

5. Have epoxied all joints in trunk covers and painted the wood. These later get painted body yellow, but I wanted to get the wood well sealed.

6. Have fitted trunk covers and hinges to rest dead-flush.

Ron Haysmann

 

[John Bloom]

Ron, thanks for posting your speedy craftsmanship and progress.  Every time I read one of your updates I feel like there is a pearl of wisdom I can grab for future projects I am thinking about.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Great thread, at this speed Ron's signature must be PE - Retired!!  No one moves this fast nights and weekends!

[ron hausmann]

All - Status as of April 10, 2022. (Took a weeks vacation in Florida so not moved along as fast as last few weeks);
1. Finished trimming and fitting floor plates and pyramid aluminum sheets. All set except for aluminum trim surrounds coming from Restoration Supply.

2. Received aluminum trim for floor surrounds yesterday. Will apply those this coming week.

3. Found that rear trunk floor, framework, and lower braces were dry rotted. This is a big deal to fix because these originally had sheet metal applied over them. I Chipped out rear trunk all rotted wood from underneath by hand. This took several days..

4. Hand cut separate oak sections to fit to recreate new trunk framing, bracing, and flooring from bottom of car, being careful to fit these into the existing sheet metal lips to renail.

5. As further to strengthen, I cut in new floor for rear trunk from maple wood sheets. As a result, all of this rear trunk is now very strong and sturdy.

6. Fenders, side aprons, and engine trim pieces have been epoxied and primed at paint shop. No pictures though. 
     Next steps will be to finish frame. This will entail fixing (re-pounding) a few of my rivets, and then having the frame sandblasted and powder coated yellow. Then assemble the frame so that painter can fit body and fenders correctly.

    Ron Hausmann P.E.

[95Cardinal]

Ron,

The pace of your progress on this car is absolutely amazing!

Joe