1923 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster

[ron hausmann]

Ok. Here are three different pictures of late 1921 to early 1923 Kissel Gold Bugs. As you can see there ar3 minor differences  between these pictures which I will have to resolve. One mystery is the step plates. Although Kissel showed a single, double indented step plate available in some period adds, we believe that it was never made. Double plates are what survivors have. As pictured. 

[JV Puleo]

Keep in mind that those are illustrations rather than photographs of existing cars. Given the time needed to produce them and print the brochures it is likely that some things changed between the instructions given to the artist and the production of the finished cars. Over reliance on period illustrations is a pet grievance of mine, having spend most of my working life in the printing industry and having a reasonably good appreciation of what was needed to produce much of the car-related printed material. It's often the best source we have but in any cases it is not infallible. This is even more the case with earlier cars. When you get back before WWI it's likely that many of the printed illustrations, and even photographs of cars, especially from small makers, cannot be taken as proof that all of a particular model were identical.

 

I suspect the step plates are just such an issue. It may have been intended to use one while the other was what was actually used.

Edited December 4, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

11 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Keep in mind that those are illustrations rather than photographs of existing cars. Given the time needed to produce them and print the brochures it is likely that some things changed between the instructions given to the artist and the production of the finished cars. Over reliance on period illustrations is a pet grievance of mine, having spend most of my working life in the printing industry and having a reasonably good appreciation of what was needed to produce much of the car-related printed material. It's often the best source we have but in any cases it is not infallible. This is even more the case with earlier cars. When you get back before WWI it's likely that many of the printed illustrations, and even photographs of cars, especially from small makers, cannot be taken as proof that all of a particular model were identical.

 

I suspect the step plates are just such an issue. It may have been intended to use one while the other was what was actually used.

I agree. My current restored 1923 Kissel Gold Bug, as well as the 1923 hulk Gold Bug I’m restoring, both have double flat cast aluminum step 0layes with foot braces. So I’m of the opinion that the flat plates are certainly correct and will be used.

    Ron Hausmann P.E.

[prewarnut]

...to that point and not to be nitpicky (simply asking out of curiosity) if the model was termed "Goldbug" and the illustrations have a gold color to them but yet many seem to be painted more yellow (both as noted above) could this be an example of where card printers and designers had one idea in mind but in practice availability of paint color was a different issue? Or is this the contemporary restorer's interpretation/preference of color? On the other hand is "Goldbug" not an official designation by Kissel and rather a spin-off from one gold-painted car?

[ron hausmann]

24 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

...to that point and not to be nitpicky (simply asking out of curiosity) if the model was termed "Goldbug" and the illustrations have a gold color to them but yet many seem to be painted more yellow (both as noted above) could this be an example of where card printers and designers had one idea in mind but in practice availability of paint color was a different issue? Or is this the contemporary restorer's interpretation/preference of color? On the other hand is "Goldbug" not an official designation by Kissel and rather a spin-off from one gold-painted car?

Prewarnut - good observations!

   These wonderful roadsters were officially advertised as “Speedster” types. The name “Gold Bug” was never  officially adopted by Kissel. That name came from a competition published then in the Milwaukee Journal newspaper to name that wonderful yellow car. From that contemporary competition, the popular name “Gold Bug” stuck.

   Kissel factory color schemes then were shown in some publications as “optional”. You could order whatever color you wanted, or take one painted with one of the factory spec. colors of yelllow, blue, red, or greenish. That’s why you can see Kissels in many different colors. The factory standard for the Gold Bug was originally all yellow, and then yellow with black undercarriage and fenders, (after a couple years or so of unfortunate experience with cars with yellow bellys).

   Gold Bugs were made 1919-1928 ish. No original yellow cars survive, so there is a fair range of different yellows on the 20 or so yellow Gold Bugs today. My restored 1923 Gold Bug is a pale yellow with tan top. Some others are a bolder yellow with black tops. Some in between. Some even factory blue.

   This restoration will be as exactly the same as the pictures above, in a medium all-yellow scheme. 
   Still looking for gray tires. 
   Thank you. Ron Hausmann P.E.
    Thank

[ron hausmann]

All - with Covid increasing here in Michigan, I’ve got more time to work on the Gold Bug. Here’s where w3 are at today;

1. Top bows have been stripped and ready to be filled and sanded. Got epoxy fille4 for wood. West System
2. top irons have been taken apart and ready for nickel plating.

3. Cowl lights have been taken apar5 and ready for nickel plating. 
4. front cowl metal plate has be3n taken off to be straightened and painted.
5 a hundred small fasteners have been tumbled clean. I use a bullet casing tumble4 with water and alcohol which does a fantastic job.

6. dash face has been freed up and is ready to polish.
RON HAUSMANN P.E.

 

[John S.]

This a a great project,Ron. You don't stop, and I appreciate your work.

[hursst]

Ron, how do you know where those fasteners go when you clean them up in a big pile like that?  My method has been to do them one at a time, or in small batches of associated parts, because I barely know where things go even when I bag and tag them.  Obviously, your method is much more efficient, but curious how you keep track of where each faster goes later on.

[ron hausmann]

Hurst - 

    Each batch comes from a separate body, trim fastener, chassis, etc. salvage task.

    After tumbling,  I then bag each batch separately and use them as I see fit. Usually I just use new period-correct wood screw and such, because the threads, especially on old wood screws, never clean properly.

    Hint - I use an ammunition tumbler/parts cleaner unit. But from testing, I use water and  “ bulk hand sanitizer” in equal parts, to liquidate the medium at least enough to create fluidity. Works great ! Coke soda works good too.

    Ron

 

[ron hausmann]

All,

    Here’s where we are at as of today, December 12, 2021:

1. Side seat drawers have been pounded and pried out of their “nest” after 60 years of being wedged inside.

2. Found that the original side seats have been removed in antiquity and replaced with drawers for storage.

3. Stripped entire seat and armrest upholstery down to wood framework. Five layers of leather.

4. Dismounted cast aluminum step plates front and rear. Good shape! Very very rare.

5. Removed side body aprons both sides. Also great shape with no dents.

6. Lifted entire body off of frame using pulleys. Now it’s hanging from the roof of my shop.

7. Found that drive side oak base frame is rotted at door and I’ll have wood replacement here to do. But other than that one area, ALL of the original wood is good.
8. Found that all doors, drawers, and sub assemblies carry an identical “production control number” stamped on the wood parts. No doubt these lids and drawers were hand fit to a specific hand built body and they put numbers on so that the correct lid or piece would continue to be matched with its parent body.

   Over the next week I will start actual restoration of parts. 
   I’ll also take the axles and springs off of both frames in order to create one good frame.

thanks, Ron Hausmann P.E.

[JV Puleo]

Ron's work on his Kissels reminds me of the other post where the idea is mooted that rare cars ought to be distributed between collections rather than concentrated in one place. It is largely Ron's specialization in this marque, his collection of a large number of parts and the expertise that comes from having done it before that will make this an outstanding restoration.

[ron hausmann]

18 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Ron's work on his Kissels reminds me of the other post where the idea is mooted that rare cars ought to be distributed between collections rather than concentrated in one place. It is largely Ron's specialization in this marque, his collection of a large number of parts and the expertise that comes from having done it before that will make this an outstanding restoration.

If I didn’t have spare Kissel parts cars and other complete Kissels for reference, I would never be able to do a restoration of this rare car. This will be like the one on the book cover above. Except for tail light. The car on the book cover I believe is a 1922. Kissel changed from round tail lights to a triangular stop - tail light combo in 1923. As all detail, but I want this to be perfect.

Ron

[stretch cab]

Thanks so much for sharing your build.

[Restorer32]

On 11/12/2021 at 8:14 PM, prewarnut said:

Can you school us? There's a certain Gold Bug, represented by a certain TV celeb/dealer shown on a certain exclusive show field (in yellow) which has a mother-in-law seat on the passenger side. Was this a factory option and/or what would the point of it be? It's almost like a motorcycle side-car but just a little more scary.

We restored the Gold Bug featured on that certain TV celeb/dealer's show and are still irritated that he screwed it up.  That car was restored exactly as original and had been thru AACA judging yet he made changes to it to "make it sell better".

[prewarnut]

That's unfortunate to hear regarding the modifications. I think he seems "personable" but after making a deal with an elderly owner or heirs to "add it to my collection" there seems to be the urge at the end of the show to just tune it up, inflate the tires and then without cleaning a thing putting it up for a major league auction.

[ron hausmann]

All - -

    Status as of December 19, 2021.

1. Parts stripping in tumbler continues. Hood latches and door handles stripped down to as new condition

2. Have taken Speedster body off of the pulleys and mounted it onto a wheeled industrial cart. This will make it much easier to maneuver as I restore the wood, and when it must be transported to the paint shop. 
3. Built and engine stand. Will dismount engine this coming week. Car dollies fit under it.

4. rearranged the two frames and discovered many more differences between the red 1921 donor frame and the 1923 Speedster frame. Consulted the parts manuals and there are two different frames listed, but the changes which I assumed t9 be small are large. The frames themselves are 7” and 6” -they won’t weld easily. 
    This coming week and next, I will dismount axles and springs and decide how to mate the frames to get one good one. I’ll also start true parts restoration and possibly have many of the medium parts taken to my sandblaster.
   Ron Hausmann P.E.

[edinmass]

The differences from year to year and model to model back in the day is substantially more significant than it is today. Basically it was simple for them to make a custom frame for just one particular model. Individual customization was still fairly simple even when going down the line back then.  I’m sure you’ll figure it out without too much difficulty. Looks like you got quite a bit of wood work to do. While the body style is simple, wood work in general is difficult; especially if you save as much original material as possible. It’s a good example of a car that looks like a “easy bard find” restoration that isn’t easy. The car is in good hands, and I’m certain it will be finished correctly and authentically as possible. Thanks for sharing the adventure. Merry Christmas, Ed Minnie.

[ron hausmann]

Weekly update as of December 24, 2021, Christmas Eve;

a. Axles front and rear have been taken off of frames. This coming week I’ll disassemble them further to be sandblasted and powder coated.

b. Springs front and rear have been taken off. They will likely be reused and appear in good shape. Kissel used different rear springs on Speedster models.

c. Engine has been taken off frame and placed on engine stand for transport to engine rebuilder and later testing. 
d. Brake crossmember parts have been laboriously taken off and restoration has started. These are unique to Kissel. Each mount has a brass collar and lubrication hole so that operation, when kept oiled, is smooth. All parts show very little wear so far. 
e. After looking at second and third series Kissel Model 6-45 frames next to each other, I’ve decided how I will mate them. THis is probably the only time in many many decades that two such frames are next to one another, as model 6-45’s themselves are so rare, and each series even more so. The front ends of these two second and third series frames are the same, but the middle side rails are different (5 1/2” and 7”) and the rear configurations are different. The heavier third series Speedster frame (rusty one) will be chopped off just ahead of the steering gear mounting holes. I will then cut off the front end of the lighter second series touring frame (red one) at that same point and weld them together and reinforce that joint. That joint will be hidden. 
 

over the next couple weeks I’ll continue disassembly on chassis parts for sandblasting and ready the frames to be mated as above. 
    Ron Hausmann P.E.

Edited December 24, 2021 by ron hausmann (see edit history)

[ericmac]

You certainly have piqued my interest. I'll look forward to watching your progress.  Thanks for sharing this most interesting restoration. 

[alsancle]

I like how you are going to restore an entire car in the same amount of time it takes me to flush the anti-freeze, lube and change the oil.

[ron hausmann]

9 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I like how you are going to restore an entire car in the same amount of time it takes me to flush the anti-freeze, lube and change the oil.

Easiest parts are taking it apart and assembling finished pieces together.

Hardest part is getting all the pieces finished.

Probably two years full time.

Ron

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I like how you are going to restore an entire car in the same amount of time it takes me to flush the anti-freeze, lube and change the oil.

That’s because you have moves like a statue, and it also explains why your covered in pidgin sxxt.

 

Merry Christmas! 😎

[ron hausmann]

All - Update as of New Years Day, 1-1-2022;

1. Cross shaft brake fittings have been taken apart, sanded, and painted to like new. 

2. Rear brake drums and clamping mechanisms have be3n taken apart and are being cleaned.

3. Front and rear springs have be3n dismounted and put aside to go to sandblaster.

4. Rear axle has been completely stripped and is put aside to go to rear axle service guy.

5.;Front axle is being disassembled. The kingpins aren’t coming out and are bound in. So will have to do some tender sledge hammering.

6. Cleaning of wheel bearings and axles is underway.
      This coming week,

a. Take rear axle to be serviced and painted.

b. Take front axle, front axle knuckles, brake drums, wheel hubs, and misc. pieces to be sandblasted.

c. Strip off front spring and engine mounts from red donor frame by knocking out rivets.

Thanks, Ron 

 

 

[keiser31]

"Tender sledge hammering"....I love those technical terms....

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, keiser31 said:

"Tender sledge hammering"....I love those technical terms....

“Beat on it like a red headed step child”..........

 

I prefer to put them in the press. Last month I made a kin pin puller/installer using an assortment of Snap On puller parts and some water jetted dogs and legs.......it was a lot of work, but in the end it worked out fine. Project is coming along fine........

[ron hausmann]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

“Beat on it like a red headed step child”..........

 

I prefer to put them in the press. Last month I made a kin pin puller/installer using an assortment of Snap On puller parts and some water jetted dogs and legs.......it was a lot of work, but in the end it worked out fine. Project is coming along fine........

In past estorations, these always have come out without an inordinate amount of force. Kissels work/tolerances were neve4 this tight. I’m thinking that these were never taken out in 99 years and they are probably encrusted with fossilized crud above and below the knuckles, which still turn. A press is a good idea. Ron

[Restorer32]

On the Gold Bug we restored the brake drums were literally "paper thin" and could not be used as is.  We ended up having them spray welded then lathe turned to the original dimensions.  Worked well.

[ron hausmann]

5 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

On the Gold Bug we restored the brake drums were literally "paper thin" and could not be used as is.  We ended up having them spray welded then lathe turned to the original dimensions.  Worked well.

Restorer,

   Luckily I have two very good sets and one fair set of brake drums for these 6-38 and 6-45 axles.

   It’s come in handy to have spent twenty or so years traveling across America to buy wrecked Kissel “parts cars”, since sooooo many parts have been able to be used on my good cars.
   In the past I have had one set of drums machined out of blocks of steel - pricey but perfect.

   Take care. Ron 

[ron hausmann]

All - status as of January 9, 2022;

1. Rear axle parts have been completely disassembled and axle is being serviced at local rear end shop. I’ll pain5 it when he’s  finished.

2. front axle has been completely disassembled and king pins driven out. Found out that the later series three model 6-45 front axles added the use of top bearings in place of bushings to carry the loads. Luckily mine aren’t damaged. 
3. Have disassembled all the brake mechanisms and springs. These show very little wear. Considering that the car was stored 66 years in a shed (1956-2022) it looks like it was not driven much from 1923-1956.

4. Have accumulated all the medium sized chassis parts (axles, drums, spindles, springs, etc.) to take to be sandblasted and powder coated. Next week. Now I need to decide color?..

     The correct Chrome Yellow color for a Kissel Gold Bug Speedster is iffy, as no original survive. My current 1923 Kissel Bug pictured below is a pale yellow, which codes to a certainLy non original Lamborghini yellow. That pale yellow looks great with a tan top but not with a black one as this car will have. The 1921 Pebble Beach winning Gold Bug pictured below is painted with a thought-to-be- correct PPG yellow DCC84877. Looks more bold. 
     Also, do I paint the chassis components grey or all yellow as some original were known to be. That would be nice but what a chore to keep clean. At this time, I am leaning to painting everything yellow to replicate the book cover picture exactly.

     Next week we will do the following;

A. Pick up serviced rear axle and paint it.

B. Take Chassis loose parts to be sandblasted and powder coated.

C. Paint loose chassis parts.

D. Start painting small brake parts, cross shaft mechanisms, shackles, etc.

E. Drill and knock out rivets from donor frame front spring and engine mount brackets which I need to transfer to the Speedster frame.

F. Prepare the speedster frame front spring shackle and cut cross member to be rewelded back to original configuration.

G. Visit “Detroit Deluxe” hot rod shop where I had my last car body and fenders painted to see if they can handle this Speedster to a concours level paint finish.

H. Continue looking for source for gray Speedster tires.

    Comments and guidance welcomed.

    Ron Hausmann 

[48fordnut]

Ron, I am not a restorer, but have enjoyed reading you post. Looking forward to the finished project. 

 

I saw your ign switch. Any chance of having one you will not be using? 

 Great project.

 

Thanks,

 

jim

[Luv2Wrench]

LOL, I saw the yellow car above and thought to myself... "yeah, typical, he's done already"

 

Love seeing the progress, thanks for taking us along!

[ron hausmann]

All - here is progress update and plan as of January 15, 2022;

1. Spent a week drilling and knocking out 38 hundred year old frame rivets which held motor mounts and front spring brackets to 1921 Kissel frame. Recall that these were removed from my 1923 Kissel frame. This was a very very hard job but it’s now accomplished. Tried several methods from internet videos, but best was to grind down the rivet head down to frame, center drill it at least one layer down progressively, soak it overnight with penetrant, @nd then whack it out the next day.

2. Mounted the cleaned off motor mount and spring bracket# on to the 1923 Kissel frame. The brackets are the same 1921-1823 but the frames are different configurations.

3. Confirmed with local rear end shop that my kissel rear end is in great shape. He is going to finish new seals next week.

4. rebuilt weird front axle ball bearings. Got new chrome rollers to replace old used ones. 27/64” weird size

5. Have readied frame to be rewelded where front crossmember was cut. Using front engine mount# to confirm alignment and spread. I’ll also put welds on my new motor mounts and spring knuckles.

    Other than that, soon body work and frame reassembly  will commence. This coming week:

a. Weld up frame.

b. Deliver frame parts to be sandblasted and powder coated.

c. Pick up rear axle and clean and paint.

d. Continue painting small brake and chassis parts.

e. Possibly pick up gas tank from rebuilder.

f. Possibly pick up radiator from rebuilder.

g. Decide which yellow to paint everything.

    Ron Hausmann P.E.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I see you used bolts to replace the rivets. Are you going to remove bolts and use rivets ? Mike

[ron hausmann]

27 minutes ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

I see you used bolts to replace the rivets. Are you going to remove bolts and use rivets ? Mike

Mike,

    I’ve no way to re-rivet so I’ll leave those bolts in and weld the sides of those brackets to the frame. Belt and suspenders.

    Ron

[Terry Harper]

Looks great Ron,

 

I am wondering if you can "fake" the rivet heads where visible. Use the bolts for alignment while welding than remove them and plug weld fake rivet heads in place.

This is common practice in railroad locomotive and equipment restorations. i.e. welded boiler with rivet heads tacked on for the aesthetics. 

 

As an example, here is our welded seam boiler with "fake" cone head rivets.

 

[ron hausmann]

11 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

Looks great Ron,

 

I am wondering if you can "fake" the rivet heads where visible. Use the bolts for alignment while welding than remove them and plug weld fake rivet heads in place.

This is common practice in railroad locomotive and equipment restorations. i.e. welded boiler with rivet heads tacked on for the aesthetics. 

 

As an example, here is our welded seam boiler with "fake" cone head rivets.

 

Thanks Terry, 

     Probably won’t go to that extent because those bolt heads won’t be much exposed or visible, and the nut ends will be inside the buried frame. Actually if you look, those bolt heads look rather nice. Ron

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Ron

 

I’m following your project with great interest.  You are making progress on a rare car at a rate 1000% faster than my current simple model T project.

 

As one engineer to another though, I would strongly recommend that you reconsider the use of bolts and welding for the frame repairs. There is a big difference in the function and behaviour of these two methods for joining metal.  Standard bolts provide compressive strength, but very little locational strength due to the slack space in the hole. Rivets however provide both very good compressive strength and positional strength at the same time.

When installed, rivets expand in diameter and lock them selves tightly in the holes and prevent any side-to-side movement between the two (or more) pieces of steel. And when installed properly they also provide high compressive strength under the rivet heads from a combination of being squeezed and deformed and if originally installed hot and pressed, then the metal shrinkage adds to the compressive strength.

Bolts in standard holes will not prevent the pieces from moving even when the bolts are tightened to the point of deformation. Vibration and cyclic forces will result in the parts moving and eventually fretting and wear of the bolt and nuts which can lead to later failure. For critical bolted joints in machinery, the joints are made with fitted bolts in reamed holes where the bolts are press fit into the hole to act as firm locational dowels before bolting.

Welding the perimeter of the parts can help, but it also changes the ways the forces move between the two parts, such as the frame rail and the forgings (or castings). The weak spot is the end of the welds that are still stress risers where the weld ends and where future cracking and failure can start as now the welds have to do all the work to hold the parts from moving “side to side”.

Replacing frame rivets is not as hard as it sounds and can be done in the home shop. Rivets, tools and advice are readily available from places like Big Flat Rivets. Rivets can be installed and still “hot riveted” using a welding torch. Placing the cold rivet in the hole, clamping or using a good backing bucking bar to hold the rivet in place. Then using the torch heat the other end red hot and start hamming and forming it with a rivet set and either a mallet or a air hammer tool. It can take a few cycles of heat and hammering to fulling form the rivet head. Using temporary bolts in the adjacent holes helps to hold the parts tight together while installing the rivet.

It does help to have two sets of hand though. One for the torch to heat the rivet, the other to do the hammering,

With help, two of us installed around 30 rivets in and early Cadillac frame in a back yard shop. The rivet diameters ranged from ¼” to 3/8” and we achieved a 95% first try success rate. A few had to be drilled and hammered out and re-done. And our tools consisted of an acetylene torch, a 2 lb. maul, home made rivet sets made from round rod on the lathe and an old section of tree trunk to mount one of the rivets sets in to provide a solid anvil like back up. We hung the frame from the ceiling on its side to help with the access, but that isn’t necessary.

The car frame and the quality of the suspension mounts and suspension installation is mission critical for the future drivability and safety on the road. Or as others would say, a house is only as good as its foundation.

Consider rivets. They are not as hard as they may sound and the results would be both more correct and more structurally solid than bolts and welds. There are lots of videos and tips out there to help.

Best of success with the Kissel project.

Drive safe and stay well.

Jeff

P. Eng. Mechanical

Nova Scotia

Canada

[mikewest]

Ron ,Bolting a frame together on a antique car that is going to be driven is not a good idea. Its not a big job to replace hot rivets with a few simple tools and another set of hands.  My 80 plus year old dad and I  completely installed  all new rivets in my Mitchell in about 8 hours. Its fine to bolt the frame together for the purpose of squaring it up during reassemble , but then remove the bolts one at a time  when replacing the rivets. Bolts will shake loose. 

[JV Puleo]

If you decide to use bolts & nuts, I suggest you adopt the method used by Rolls Royce. The holes were reamed slightly undersize — perhaps .0005 — so that bolts have to be forced in. Then the nuts and washers were added and each nut was "staked" to make sure it couldn't turn. RR chassis are put together this way. I have the same problem you do with rivets and this is how I intend to reassemble my Mitchell chassis. I will have to have a special reamer ground for this but I've found that the nominal 3/8" rivets are slightly smaller than a 3/8" fine thread bolt.

 

(Note:) The longstanding legend that RR used tapered bolts in tapered holes is just that, a legend. I've taken them out and measured them and they weren't tapered.

[mikewest]

Joe, I think this is the  illustration  you sent me many years ago  when i was  going to start putting my frame back together. Did you get snow today. We got way over a foot.