1938 Studebaker front end repair.

[SC38dls]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

I was thinking to myself this morning, Dave will have his car finished 9 months sooner than most restoration shops or body shops would have gotten it done in...............and I suspect a much more caring and purposeful effort. Dave, I need to stop by for a ride soon......👍

The invite is open and the bourbon is stocked.  You are more than welcome anytime you are heading up north.  When I get this done I may just have to take a day trip south to PB, I want to see the GREAT WHITE Shiver - I believe that is what a group of great whites are called. 

dave s 

[SC38dls]

It’s Friday Benny! 10/29/21. Got the right front fender flanges that were bend & ripped at bolt holes straighten and welded. Put it back on and only had to adjust two holes I made a little too small with my welding. I want to do a little more hammer and dolly work then start the skim coat and primer. I am not taking the fenders off to paint I’ll mask the grille and fenders instead and paint it assembled. I did sand, prime and paint all the hidden flanges. Then I can replace the hammer & dolly work with sanding!  Anybody that likes to sand is welcome to stop buy!  
dave s 

[SC38dls]

One more thing - this is Benny. My daughter is visiting and she brought her one year old Labordoddle (sp ?)

 

[TAKerry]

Cant remember where you stood with the filler, but you should at the least get a product called 'Rage Gold'. Its a higher end product but very good. Much better than the hardware store bondo. 

[f.f.jones]

Lots of discussion on Rage Gold on AutoBody101.com: Rage vs. Bondo, pros & cons, etc. They talk about cost, ease of application, techniques, results, etc. Might be worth reading before starting the finishing process.

https://www.autobody101.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22148

There may be other forums out there, too, if you have time to look.

P.S. Looking good - keep up the good work. Anxious to see the final product.

[60FlatTop]

That's Annie's dog, Sandy. Thought you asked her to stop by, huh.

[Paul Dobbin]

I sure hope you buy a quart of Epoxy primer for those fenders before you bondo them.   That's a way to have protection of the steel before the moisture in the bondo starts to rust your fenders and ruin the new paint too.

[SC38dls]

Paul now I’m confused more than ever. Are you saying the primer should go on before I do the skim coat? Then I use primer again? Then paint. Is expoxy primer different than sandable primer?  I appreciate suggestions but please remember I’ve never done this much body work before. I need a better explanation than just “I hope you are going to …..”.  
I have been offered a detailed process for painting the fenders from a very experienced member of AACA and I believe I will receive that soon. Hopefully that will solve my worry about the sequence of doing all of this. 
I have purchased a high quality skim filler that is suppose to be easy to use and sand. It is not a bondo product. 

If anyone wants to give me a list of the complete process I need to do from the point I’m at now — finishing the hammer/dolly process— to finished paint I would appreciate it very much. Confusion is very frustrating and worrisome. 
Thanks for understanding and the great help and encouragement all of you have given me

dave s  

Edited October 30, 2021 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I am certainly NO pro when it comes to bodywork! But sometimes I think I have good advice to offer?

No matter WHAT you do? WHO you listen to? HOW you wind up doing this? There will be people that think you did it wrong.

I have listened to experts arguing about priming before Bondo for more than fifty years! I do not claim to have the best answer. I have tried both ways numerous times. I usually end up altering between Bondo and primer in lesser and lesser amounts until I am satisfied with the final sanding. I have not yet seen anything to convince me that alternating them has bad results. I still don't know if the first application should be primer or Bondo. And I have had experts (?) argue both ways with me.

There are a few people on this forum that I would want to believe more than others. And you probably know them as well as I do, if not better. Listen to a few, choose what sounds best from one or more of those "most likely to know best". Then run with it and don't obsess about it. I might also suggest not letting anyone know which way you went?

[mike6024]

35 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Paul now I’m confused more than ever. Are you saying the primer should go on before I do the skim coat? Then I use primer again?

 

I did not want to say it, but yes that is the preferred method. Not everybody does it that way though. But yes I would put the non-sanding epoxy sealer on the bare metal before the bondo. I would suggest that 2K stuff i mentioned a while back.

 

 

[Bloo]

Epoxy primer over bare metal, then do whatever else you are going to do.

 

It is a 2-part catalyzed thing, and it is not the same as other primers, whether those other primers are 2-part catalyzed or not. Epoxy primer is not traditional mainly because it didn't exist in the past. It is your best chance of a good bond to CLEAN metal. Nothing else even comes close.

 

Either wear GOOD protection for your body and an air system for your lungs, or if that is too expensive, hire someone else to spray it. That goes for all modern paint, not just the epoxy primer.

 

 

[edinmass]

You can buy the epoxy primer in spray cans......expensive, but worth it.

[Digger914]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

Listen to a few, choose what sounds best from one or more of those "most likely to know best". Then run with it and don't obsess about it. I might also suggest not letting anyone know which way you went

I'm a replace the panel as often as reasonably possible, weld or adhesive in a new or fabricated section when needed and when repair decisions are influenced by time and money, Bondo is my buddy and fiberglass is my friend. 

 

Heat will help to shrink some of that stretched metal, but when it comes to beating this smooth; Nothing works this kind of crinkled compound curve better than a slap file and dolly, lead is the only thing that will fill dimples as deep as these on the right fender appear to be without shrinking or cracking. After you get this as close to original shape as possible read through all the suggestions that have been offered up here and use what will work best for what you have in front of you.

 

Of the suggestions I read here all have been good, but Wayne offered up the best "Listen to a few, choose what sounds best from one or more of those "most likely to know best". Then run with it and don't obsess about it. I might also suggest not letting anyone know which way you went"

 

 

[SC38dls]

Wayne, Mike, Bloo, Ed, Digger thank you. Advice from all sorts of angles can be very confusing. You all have been very consistent throughout this whole ordeal and that is appreciated as much as your help. I will proceed based on the above. There may be small differences in what you all have said so I guess my next steps will follow in Ed’s footsteps and be a bit of a mystery. I am not worried about the dollar factor I just want to get this done the best way for the car and as soon as possible. 
Again, thank you. 
dave s 

Edited October 30, 2021 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

12 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

No matter WHAT you do? WHO you listen to? HOW you wind up doing this? There will be people that think you did it wrong.

When you get the job finished delete this whole topic and if anyone points out a flaw tell them you bought it like that.

 

It also helps if you know of a semi-hidden flaw elsewhere on the car to point out and say "You think that's bad, you probably didn't notice this."

 

No one even knows this is going on. And I ain't tellin'.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

The Epoxy primer is on the way. I will keep on doing the hammer/paddle/dolly work until it arrives. Nearest place that had it was 48 miles away so I ordered a can. 
dave s 

[mike6024]

I painted my stuff outdoors with the epoxy primer not worried about any small amounts of dust, besides it seems to flash over real quick if you are spraying only light coats. So it's not going to be collecting dust for a long time.

 

So I think i only used like N95 mask, also have a respirator that is like mainly for particles. But mainly if outdoors and a light breeze and you upwind you won't be breathing it.

 

The seat pans had some deep pitted rust i just cleaned up real good, used the de-greaser metal prep stuff and painted right over and it looks good. Some of the smaller body parts i did had some surface rust type starting so i wanted to get that off and prevent it from coming back. i did a couple hoods.

 

     https://parcilsafety.com/collections/respirators/products/pd101-full-face-respirator

 

I think I'll get one of these with charcoal filter for organic vapors, for painting indoor the garage, but also leave windows open. I do not see the need for a sealed off paint booth. Not much dust in the air, especially since it has rained now.

 

It's critical you not breathe this stuff, so if you want to do it right, i think the way is a supplied air respirator system, with outside pump and hose supplying fresh air, but it looks like those are around $1k?

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I'll start by saying I'm among the last people to ask about the newest and best, or what process someone should use. In so many ways I still stuck in the 60's. In fact I would go so far as to say don't listen to me at all. But this thread has elicited visceral feelings from me on many different levels. From the model of car, to my over sixty years in the hobby and my own adventures in repair and restoration. It just speaks to me. 

 

It was about 1959 or 60 that I started playing with body work. It's funny how necessity and the stupid, fearlessness of youth allows one the freedom to do things that an older person might be afraid to try. The world just seemed so simple all I had to do was just do it. Bondo was new in those days. I looked it up and it became available in 1955. All of a sudden we could do body work in our backyard. Nobody seemed to know how it would work, or how long it would last and few seemed to care. I got by with things that if I had known what I was doing I never would have done it the way the way I did it, but it got done. 

 

In those days the common practice, at least in my world, was to apply Bondo over bare metal. The first time I extended it onto a painted surface it was a mistake, but I said what the hell and left it. I could always redo it later if it failed, but it never did so I just kept doing it that way. Now it's more or less accepted practice to apply over paint, but not the way I did it. 

 

I tend to keep my cars forever, so I have the luxury of reliving every hammer blow, every mistake made and conquest achieved by just  touching what I had done, a seeming lifetime ago. Some of my cars became show winners and some became daily drivers, but regardless all of them have held up very well, considering the decades that have passed. I must have had an angel sitting on my shoulder because nobody should have been as lucky as I've been. Or maybe it's just the case of there are more than one way to skin a cat. Just don't ask me how to do it.

[edinmass]

In so many ways I still stuck in the 60's. 

 

Hell, I'm stuck in the mid 30's!

[Paul Dobbin]

Dave,

 

Think of Epoxy primer as a seal between the old and the new.   There are still things like old paint and rust in the pores of the metal fenders.

The seal will keep the old paint and rust from having a bad chemical reaction with your new Rage filler and the modern primer and paint products.

Even the bet paint jobs can ruined from beneath.   Glad to her you ordered a Epoxy sealer..

Paul

[SC38dls]

It’s Sunday and I’m doing more hammer dolly work on the right fender. A while back there were suggestions of using a t-shirt or soft rag or bare hands to feel the dimples, bumps, pits, valleys and ridges. Both the rag & t- shirt slide over the fender easily without catching anywhere. My bare arthritic hand feels all kinds of bumps and valleys. So what does that mean? #1 Don’t let anyone touch the fender with out a t-shirt on their hand? #2 I need to do a lot more H&D work? Or number #3 enough H&D work the skim coat will cover them?  I’m hoping those in the know (or at least the majority of you that have helped me get this far) will say #3!! 😳😃😃😃😃

Let me know what your honest option is no matter what I’m hoping for please. 
dave s 

[Paul Dobbin]

I'm sure you'l be happy when it's finished and you are the only one who has to be happy.

I think you got a lol of good advice here as well as good wishes.

[SC38dls]

Paul I agree everyone has been great and encouraging. I am enjoying the process but will be happy when it’s done. I’ll get to take Gracie for a ride again and maybe Benny too!  

[Frank DuVal]

16 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

In those days the common practice, at least in my world, was to apply Bondo over bare metal. 

 

It was that way until epoxy primer/sealer hit the market and it was discovered plastic filler stuck better to the epoxy primer than bare metal! And it helped resist rust on the bare metal. Here in the rusty east, it seems as soon as I ground the paint off the rust started, even indoors. People out west don't understand this.😉

[wayne sheldon]

It isn't as bad now as it was years ago. However, my hands are unusually acidic. A long time ago, working on our cars together, one of my best friends and I discovered that he could run his hands all over the clean steel, and not leave any rusty trace. On the other hand, any place I ran my hands over would show a rusty streak within hours! I often use a rag when getting a feel for the work done for that reason. I would sometimes stop by as he was working, and he would ask me to place my hand in an area he wasn't working on that day just to see how long before my handprint would show up!

 

I am enjoying reading information and opinions presented by everyone here! Especially about the epoxy primer. I am still trying to learn more.

[SC38dls]

To date 43 of you have given me help, information, encouragement and insight on how to fix this front end. I do not have the words that describe how appreciative I am for all of you. You have been great in your patience and understanding when I’ve asked the same question more than once. You have taken time to explain the process multiple ways so I can understand. I went into this project with one goal, keep the 38 on the road when the insurance company wanted to total it.  Now I have new goals thanks to all of you. I want it fixed right and as close to original as I can make it. I tried to get a local body shop to do it with out success. No one wants to work on a car older than 10 years. I now feel I have a group supporting me that rivals any restoration shop working on old cars. That group is you, now if only the rookie hands doing what you are saying was a 10^th as good as your advice the Studebaker will be a good-looking car again.  When this is finished, I wish we could all get together and raise a glass to it being back on the road. My next project will be to figure that problem out, so it happens too.

Thank you you wonderful 43 people for having interest and the kindness to share your talents.

THE 43:

PMHOWE, CHUDWAH,WALT G, MATT HARWOOD, FRANK DUVAL, 60 FLAT TOP, TTR, BLOO, WAYNE SHELTON, PAUL DOBBIN, FF JONES, CARL LaFONG, JUST DAVE, TAYLORMADE, MR SPEEDYT,  58L-Y8, GEORGE ROHRBACH, FOSSIL, TA KERRY, MIKE 6024, 1932 PLYMOUTH PB SEDAN, GARY ASH,  1912 STAVER, EDinMASS, OREGON DESERT MODEL 45, JACK M, HUDSY WUDSY, EMTEE, FF JONES, GRIMY, ZIMM 63, DAVE 39MD, LAUGHING COYOTE, HAROLD, 8E45E, BEN BRUCE AKA FIRST BORN, ED LUDDY, GARY F, DIBARLAW, BHIGDOG, JIM SKELLY, DIGGER914, BUFFALOWED BILL.

 

Thank you all and I hope you will continue to help me (God knows I need it) with the rest of this until it is finished and driving.

dave s  

Edited November 3, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Oregon Desert model 45]

If you find it difficult to feel the dimples, bumps, pits, valleys and ridges, get a can of dykem and coat the area with blue dye, then quickly block sand it off. The low spots will stay blue, the high spots will be shiny.  You can see exactly where to hammer.  Below is one of my doors using dykem to spot the dents. Its pretty clear where the high & low spots are without having to run a hand over it. 

[wayne sheldon]

Your success will be due to your willingness to jump in and travel unfamiliar territory, doing hard work that many others have spent a lifetime in learning! You are/should be an inspiration for all.

When you post photos and tell us that the car is back on the road? I will be very pleased to raise a glass of A&W root beer or a very good apple juice in your honor! (I never drink alcohol!)

 

Similar to O D m 45, I use light coats of primer and sometimes alternating colors (red, gray, black) and block sanded to show areas that need more attention. It really helps. 

[Jim Skelly]

We're all cheering you on, Dave!  Keep up the great work.

[f.f.jones]

Just a thought...I know you are apprehensive about the final finishing stages of your repair project (prime and paint). The potential health hazards and/or cost of protective gear and special spray equipment can discourage one from doing this part of the job himself - especially if this is a one-time effort and expense.

If you are located within a reasonable distance from a community college (junior college), trade school, or even a high school that offers automotive repair classes, you might ask if they are open to doing "outside" work for members of the community. They should have all the  technical knowledge and equipment, as well as professional guidance, to do the job right. If they can't help you through the "official" school route,  the people you talk with (preferably the instructors) might recommend a well qualified student (or even a professional friend or another instructor) who is qualified and has access to the right equipment and is interested in a side job.

I have been able to take advantage of my local high school building trades program for a few construction projects over the last couple of years by having them do pre-fab work in their shop and final assembly on site. Upon graduation the top students go right on to full time professional work. 

I'm sure you're anxious to get back on the road, and this last word is a longer term solution, but you might even consider enrolling in an "automotive technology"

class (which I have done myself) to learn the best techniques and possibly bring your project in for a closely guided finishing help. 

Best of luck on whatever solution you choose.

[SC38dls]

I know the local high school does not have any auto classes. It’s a shame the way the education system has dropped the technical trades and the arts/music from curriculums. Not everyone is meant to go to college but that’s all the system seems to care about. I didn’t think of a tech school so I will check around. I learned the mechanical end working in a junk yard (my pay was parts for my 57 DeSoto small hemi and all the gas I could siphon from the wrecks they brought in) pulling parts and helping make one good car out of a couple wrecks. Kids don’t get that opportunity today with insurance rules. 
I’ll let you know what I find. 
dave s 

[EmTee]

Maybe a local community college?

[TAKerry]

Is your name really Arnie?, LOL  

 

Our county just built a phenomenal Tech school. But the primary goal is to teach 'technology' i.e. computer programming and the such. When I went to school it was called Vo-Tech, now its the School of Technology. When it was Vo Tech, they had carpentry, masonry, electric, plumbing, welding, auto mechanic, etc. I dont think they have half of the trades now.

[TAKerry]

2 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Maybe a local community college?

I see so many people say that they took a night class at their comm coll for auto trades, welding etc. Ours offers no such thing. Just book learnin'.  Not that theres anything wrong with that but what about something for the rest of us hobos?

[pkhammer]

Our local Technical Center offers high school and adult classes for welding, mechanics, diesel repair and collision repair along with drafting, carpentry, masonry, etc. The machine shop class did get shut down however for lack of interest and low attendance.

 

[SC38dls]

Been in the garage for an hour or so. Still waiting for epoxy primer to arrive so I thought I might as well weld up the old directional signal holes. I have the correct top of fender lights to replace the old aftermarket lights that were on it. Found some minor rust around the hole so cut that out and replace metal also. Different color due to grinder. 
dave s 

Edited November 4, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

It’s Friday Benny!  This is Benny in case anyone missed his previous appearance. 
I've filled in the aftermarket directional signal holes and did more hammer & dolly work on the right fender. Still waiting for the  epoxy primer to come. Hopefully today. It’s getting a little colder here each day. Usually Nov is high sixties low to mid seventies. But it is low 50’s to low 60’s for the last week. Suppose to get back to normal next week. I hope so as that would be ideal for painting I believe. I’ll keep doing more dent work until the primer arrives. 
dave s 

[GARY F]

Looking good. Waiting for paint.

[SC38dls]

Saturday 11/6. I would like to hear what you all think I should do. Below is a pic of the top of the right front fender. It is the only part of the cars original paint that is like this. There are minor cracks where they leaded curves near the back window but over all the original paint is in very good shape. When the car came out of the barn in PA it had been covered for pretty much of the 42 years it was there. I have to paint the front part of the fenders so my question is —. DO I PAINT THE TOP OF THIS FENDER or leave it as original as Is?  I know it’s my decision but I’m wrestling with which way to go. The car is only original once but with the repairs it’s not original any more. I know I can think of it as original except the lower front but is that really original?  All of you have been very kind to help me and encourage me throughout this whole process. I respect your opinions so please let me know what you would do. 
Thanks 

dave s 

Edited November 6, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Repaint the whole fender, are you using lacquer ?( nitrocellulose or acrylic) you will need to sand the fender and possibly use some lacquer primer ( black) to possibly prep any thin areas of paint or down to bare metal. If you don't want the fender to look "to new" , to shiny. After you paint it ( again in lacquer I am speaking of) and let the paint harden well - let it sit for a month . Winter is coming (so it can take a rest) and then when you polish it out if you want it to match the rest of the original paint then don't go crazy with the polishing( compounding and it will leave a less "in you face" shiny surface. Polishing out paint is a whole art to itself - assorted levels of compound as to how much "cut" it has - grit, there is really heavy cutting compound ( red) and lighter stuff for finish ( white ) .