Not Looking to Start a Firestorm...

[Guest]

I remember a while back there was quite a bit of discussion on which eras the terms "classic" "vintage" "antique" etc. were supposed to be used to correctly identify vehicles from different eras. I am curious if a definitive (or even a general consensus) type of answer was ever determined?

Appreciate any and all opinions. 

Greg

[padgett]

You left off Brass era. Antique cars are defined by Florida DMV as over 30 years old (but the plate is ugly). Chevrolet had a "Classic:" in 1979. Except where defined by a DMV all terms are really mutable and really unimportant.

[1937hd45]

Snowflake version or the ones set down in 1950-1955? 

 

Bob 

[46 woodie]

Greg, I don't think there ever will be a definitive answer. Everything from Model T Fords to Chevrolet Camaro's are called "classic cars". In reality, only the vehicles accepted by the Classic Car Club of America, are true classics. 

[Terry Bond]

Doubt it.  This is like asking 50 people to decide on what toppings to order on their pizza.  I've heard it suggested that these catagories should all be scrubbed -everything is an "old car."

Terry

[capngrog]

Greg,

 

Well that should certainly kick the top off of the old (classic, vintage, antique?) ant hill!  I goo-goled the term "definition of antique car" and came up with many varied definitions of the terms, "classic", "vintage" and "antique" as applied to cars.  I think that one of the oldest definitions of a "classic" car is that of the Classic Car Club of America (CCCA).  Their mission statement is thus:

"Mission Statement

he name of the Club, which is a non-profit membership corporation chartered in the State of New York, shall be: CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, INC.

The purposes for which the Club are founded are: for the development, publication and interchange of technical, historical and other information for and among members and other persons who own or are interested in fine or unusual foreign or domestic motorcars built between and including the years 1915 and 1948 and are distinguished for their representative fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship, and to promote social exchange and fellowship among its members: and to maintain references upon and encourage the maintenance, restoration, and preservation of all such Classic cars."

 

That mission statement is somewhat vague and open to interpretation.

 

As pointed out in above posts,  there are many varying definitions of the terms, and like the weather, will always be a subject of discussion.

 

For example, I have a bottle of somewhat mediocre wine that has been described as a "classic antique vintage".  Whatever that means.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

[mike6024]

This is what I've always heard:

 

How old does something have to be to be considered an antique?

100 years

 

The rule of thumb used by most antique dealers is that anything about 100 years or older is an antique. Items that are old, but not quite that old, are called vintage.

[padgett]

You mean I am vintage ?

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Snowflake version or the ones set down in 1950-1955? 

 

Bob 

??????  What is a “snowflake” version.?  Not familiar with that designation.  Doesn’t AACA use a 25 year ruler for antique autos?

[mike6024]

Bob is saying that the rule set down in 1950-1955 was the "real deal" not the snowflake version of modern times.

 

[TerryB]

In PA, the rule is the antique auto must appear as original as possible and be at least 26 years old, so 1994 is the current cutoff.  PA also offers a Classic auto registration for vehicles 16 years old from the current model year.  Again the auto must look original.  No hot rods or visible modifications.  The difference is the cars with classic registration have to get the annual PA safety inspections and the antique do not.  It’s been a while since I’ve been through the process for antique but there had been a requirement that you had to show proof you had another daily driver car to get approved for the antique registration.  Your “antique” registered car could not be your only auto.  This was done to keep people from bypassing the safety inspection requirement for their everyday car.

[TerryB]

6 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Bob is saying that the rule set down in 1950-1955 was the "real deal" not the snowflake version of modern times.

 

Ok, but it’s the year 2020 so how do you adjust for that fact?  1930 was a long time ago and not many survivors in both people and cars.  How is this snowflake designation, which I assume is some negative term to describe people born after a certain date helpful to the organization?  FWIW, I was born in 1952.  My interest is in cars up through the 1970s, after that I start to loose some interest.  Doesn’t Bob’s son in law own a 70s era Corvette?  Seems like mixed messages.

[TerryB]

2 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Funny how some states have safety inspections. Not the case in California, never heard of them here. you could get cited for bald tires if getting a speeding ticket and the officer happens to notice the tires.

Rust was the big driver of this obligation, at one time it was a semi-annual inspection so going to once a year was a big relief.  I guess CA is only done for emissions?

[Billy Kingsley]

I personally reject these made up classifications. The only name I care about is who made it, what they called it, and when. That is ALL that matters. 

[SC38dls]

Mine is a “classic vintage antique”. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. You should also know I liked what Teddy Roosevelt  said “speak softly but carry a big stick”. I’ve got the stick!  
 

Edited March 21, 2020 by SC38DLS
Not thinking straight must be the stuck at home syndrome (see edit history)

[oldcarfudd]

I thought that was Teddy Roosevelt's line.

[ply33]

Best I heard is:

Classic --> The car you wanted to own when you were in high school but could not afford

Antique --> Any car built before you were born.

New Car --> Any car built after your oldest child was born.

 

At present I have a "old car". In another 13 years it will turn 100 and I guess I can then start calling it an antique.

[SC38dls]

Oldcarfudd. You are correct. I corrected the post. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[charlier]

15 hours ago, TerryB said:

In PA, the rule is the antique auto must appear as original as possible and be at least 26 years old, so 1994 is the current cutoff.  PA also offers a Classic auto registration for vehicles 16 years old from the current model year.  Again the auto must look original.  No hot rods or visible modifications.  The difference is the cars with classic registration have to get the annual PA safety inspections and the antique do not.  It’s been a while since I’ve been through the process for antique but there had been a requirement that you had to show proof you had another daily driver car to get approved for the antique registration.  Your “antique” registered car could not be your only auto.  This was done to keep people from bypassing the safety inspection requirement for their everyday car.

 

TerryB, I agree that Pennsylvania HAD a good system. Unfortunately, when PA eliminated the photo requirement with antique tag applications the "rules" got flushed down the toilet by many people who have gamed the system to save some money or just take the easy way out. These "rules" are no longer being followed by a large  number of applicants. I see this CONSTANTLY on the roads and at cruise-ins here in Eastern PA. Countless numbers of vehicles that should have hot rod and other specialty PA plates have Antique tags on them.  Now-a-days, without photos, it is not uncommon to see vehicles with supercharger blowers protruding through the hood, 36 inch wide racing tires, roll cages and racing seats on cars with antique tags. I could go on and on and on with other examples but you get the idea.  So much for "rules" when it comes to antique tags in PA.

 

Trying to get people to agree on standard definitions for the terms "classic" "vintage" "antique" may generate a lively discussion but in the end  people will have to agree to disagree and just move on to the next topic.

[padgett]

Late 1970's Pontiac Alloy wheels were known as "Snowflakes"

 

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Late 1970's Pontiac Alloy wheels were known as "Snowflakes"

 

 

And who designed those wheels. One hint, it wasn't John DeLorean. Their span is 1977-1981

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

On 3/20/2020 at 12:54 PM, TerryB said:

??????  What is a “snowflake” version.?  Not familiar with that designation.  Doesn’t AACA use a 25 year ruler for antique autos?

 

Not only does AACA, but antique insurance and most motor vehicle departments are 25 years as long as the car is not modified

[Guest]

I might live in the California desert where triple digit temps are common but there are plenty of snowflakes here. 

 

 

[hidden_hunter]

Our state actually has definitions for it (that as far as I'm aware have not changed for a very long time) and it also changes the type of number plate you get (as well as not requiring a front plate)

 

A club permit can be issued to the vehicles in the following categories:

 

• veteran vehicles – manufactured before 1 January 1919
• vintage vehicles – manufactured after 31 December 1918 and before 1 January 1931
• classic and historic vehicles - manufactured after 31 December 1930, but more than 25 years before the date of the application for a club permit.

[playswithbrass]

Veteran goes to 1904

brass era 1905 to 1915

[Guest]

pwb,

           Do you have any idea why the break from '04 to '05?

I mean was there a noticeable change introduced in '05?

I'm afraid that, while I like them, I'm just not very well versed in brass era cars.

Greg

[60FlatTop]

On 3/20/2020 at 2:36 PM, capngrog said:

interested in fine or unusual foreign or domestic motorcars built between and including the years 1915 and 1948 and are distinguished for their representative fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship,

Except for the year, my 2003 BMW 760li meets every requirement of the CCCA, probably exceeds most. That thought was actually in my mind when I bought it. I just bought an old car early, by intention.

 

I have always been a participant in the hobby but never felt like a real fit because I really haven't bought "old" cars. My stuff is generally a 15 year old car that I bought and kept a long time.

 

My Nirvana came in a used car lot about 10 PM in Moline, Il. It was 1984 and I had been working on a 1946 Dodge for quite a while trying to make everything perfect and as new. I was staying in the Quad Cities and driving down to Keewanee for some initial boiler firing test at the old boiler plant. The other guys were at the hotel sharing the bar with a Marry K convention. I was looking at back row used car lots. I* saw a black mid-1970's Mercury, about 10 years old, and really sharp. That age and condition always appealed to me (the Mary K reps were somewhat different).

I thought "This is what I like". The glossy pictures in car magazines were fine, but just not for me. Then and there I decided to make the goal of maintaining my old cars at the condition of a nicely maintained 10 year old car. What a change in my perspective. I started buying better cars, doing less work, not tearing everything part, and smiling a lot more. One of the great, ongoing, small rewards is picking up a ratchet and finding it in the "tighten" position. It still warms my little heart.

 

So my cars are lumped into old cars. Rewards are small but frequent, usually when driving alone. I remember one very hot summer day coming back from the 180 mile round trip to the in law's. My wife said "This is really a good car to be so old and just drive like this". That was my '60 Electra and it was 55 years old at the time. The '60 is 60 now.

 

Well, back to the garage to drop the front reinforcement plate and get those O2 sensors in. I probably won't see it turn 60, but I have owned it two pleasurable years without a warranty. That would scare a lot of people. And I swear, it meets every requirement of the CCCA except the year.

Bernie

 

[JamesR]

On 3/20/2020 at 12:46 PM, GregLaR said:

I remember a while back there was quite a bit of discussion on which eras the terms "classic" "vintage" "antique" etc. were supposed to be used to correctly identify vehicles from different eras.

Greg

 

 

This is interesting. I've used the term "vintage" to describe my cars recently because I was under the impression it was just kind of a generic term that wasn't trying to be too specific, and therefore wouldn't upset anyone who tends to be easily upset by such things. (Greg's "Not trying to start a firestorm" title for the thread seems to indicate that there are such people out there.)

 

Apparently "vintage" is more specific than I thought, though, at least in terms of cars. The term is used pretty loosely for other sought after collectibles, such as guitars. I kind of hate using "collectable" as a generic term because it implies that I see myself in the same light as Duesenberg and Ferrari owners, when all I have are a few driver quality Fords. That'd be a little pretentious on my part. I guess I'll just have to go back to saying "old car" like I did when I was a kid!😄 Thanks for the education, Greg and others. 🙂

[padgett]

he 88 Reatta meets every test (have stock wheels but would not put 15x6s on anything).

 

 

 

•  

ps the London to Brighton rules say no newer than 1904 (and believe it celebrates the repeal of the red flag act). May be why "vintage" stops there.

[playswithbrass]

GregLar      Padgett hit then nail on the head,London to Brighton entry cut off date is 1904. Big difference in price as well between the two model years.

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Maybe I'm a little thick, I understand the L to B having a cut off year, but was there some change in the autos the following year that made them very different than the 1904 model, or is this more of an arbitrary date that's just "always been used"?

[Guest]

OK, being completely unfamiliar with the "Red Flag Laws" I had to look it up.

Among other info, I found this passage on Wikipedia which was just too good not to share here! 

 

"The most infamous of the Red Flag Laws was enacted in Pennsylvania circa 1896, when legislators unanimously passed a bill through both houses of the state legislature, which would require all motorists piloting their "horseless carriages", upon chance encounters with cattle or livestock to (1) immediately stop the vehicle, (2) "immediately and as rapidly as possible ... disassemble the automobile", and (3) "conceal the various components out of sight, behind nearby bushes" until equestrian or livestock is sufficiently pacified.^[3] The law never took effect, due to a veto by the state’s governor, Daniel H. Hastings."

 

Kudos Dan Hastings!

[erichill]

Read the subject line and figured the post would be about engine oil. THAT ALWAYS STARTS HEATED DEBATES

[JV Puleo]

It was a British law - the "Locomotives on Highways Act" passed, I think, in 1876. It was a method of forcing the early steam carriages off the roads sponsored by the horse interests. Actually, the red flag part of the law was revoked before the first London to Brighton run in 1896. The 1904 date was arbitrary...settled on by the Veteran Car Club at a later date.

Edited March 23, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[capngrog]

2 hours ago, JamesR said:

 I kind of hate using "collectable" as a generic term because it implies that I see myself in the same light as Duesenberg and Ferrari owners, when all I have are a few driver quality Fords. That'd be a little pretentious on my part. I guess I'll just have to go back to saying "old car" like I did when I was a kid!😄 Thanks for the education, Greg and others. 🙂

 

I like the use of the term "collectible" (var. sp. "collectable") when applied to cars.  I have a friend who collects Ferraris, Lamborghinis, high end customs etc. while I collect older low end cars picked up at yard sales and estate sales.  While his interests are different from mine, we both consider ourselves "Car Guys", and there is no social barrier between us at all.  My dedication to the hobby is not on the par of a Jay Leno or a Wayne Carini, or that of many of the participants in this Forum; however, I think we would all call ourselves "Car Guys" who enjoy owning, reading about, discussing or just looking at older or more exotic automobiles than those found on the average used car lot.   Newer vehicles that exhibit  "...fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship ..." also grab the interest of most "Car Guys". 

 

James R:  Whether it's Fords, Duesenbergs or Ferraris, they grab the interest of "Car Guys", which, I believe, is what we all are on this Forum.  If you're knowledgeable/passionate about your "driver quality Fords", I'll bet that the Duesenberg/Ferrari guys would enjoy talking with you about your cars ... especially if you listen to them talking about their cars.

 

I just consider myself a "Car Guy" who is interested in "collectible" (whatever that means) cars.  I'm also a "Gear Head" (if it's a machine, I like it), but that's a whole "nother story.

 

Cheers, Car Guys,

Grog