Idle Curiosity about the Lincoln V12

[Peter S]

I'm probably not actually about to take this on, but how difficult is rebuilding a Lincoln V12? Is it much worse than rebuilding 2 sixes? Are there a lot of unique parts besides the crankshaft?

 

Peter S.

[Real Steel]

The last of the vintage Lincoln V-12's was a very different animal than the earlier V-12's.  The early ones were built for very exclusive clientele, the later ones were not.  I am not an expert on these engines, nor would I rebuild any of them for someone else.  It may be a good idea to clarify your question.

[Peter S]

Fair comment. I've had some interest in a 1941 V12 that I believe is out of a Zephyr. It isn't running and I presume it needs a full rebuild. I'm wondering about the availability of parts - are these engines rare and is there much interchangeability with the 8's? Also interested in whether there is anything very special about them rather than just more cylinders? 

 

Peter s.

[John_S_in_Penna]

The Zephyr came out for the 1936 model year.  Here is a

quote from The Lincoln Motorcar:  Sixty Years of Excellence

by Thomas Bonsall:

 

"The engine was the main reason the Zephyr acquired a

checkered reputation.  Many owners and latter-day automotive

writers came to regard it as a bad engine, a real botch job.

It was not.  What it was was underdeveloped.  Ford engineers

simply did not do an adequate job of refining it for production.

The earliest engines were especially troublesome.  Some of the 

early troubles were eventually corrected, but some of the

flaws never were.  Crankcase ventilation was the most serious

chronic problem.  Due to the design, sludge was easily formed

in engines subjected to a lot of low speed driving.  It was really

a high speed engine, and owners who used their cars primarily

in urban driving and did not maintain them meticulously had

trouble.  Another serious problem was the inherently poor

lubrication of the engine. ... The fact remains, however, that

in the hands of a careful, meticulous owner, the Zephyr V-12

was a tough, dependable and economical powerplant."

 

I hope this gives you a good perspective on your prospective buy.

Edited October 25, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

The Zephyr V12 is like a Ford flathead with 4 extra cylinders. So, similar to a Ford but more of the same. I believe parts are a lot more expensive, and how available, I don't know. I do know that back in the day a lot of them were replaced with Ford or Mercury V8s which bolt in and are cheaper but not much less powerful, especially if you add high compression heads, cam, dual carbs etc. When OHV V8s became available many Lincoln Continentals got Cadillac or Olds engines.

[bryankazmer]

The Bonsall quote says it's not a botch job then goes on to explain all the reasons it is.  The good news is that being derived from the Ford engine it's less costly to rebuild than the luxury-intended engines including the earlier Lincoln V12.  Because of all those swaps back in the day, there may be a market for an engine for "un-swapping."  Can a more knowledgeable Continental person comment?

[Restorer32]

Parts are available. We recently rebuilt a '48. The '48 has a forged crankshaft, earlier ones do not. There is also a high capacity oil pump available as well as high capacity water pumps. If you buy it PM me and I will put you in touch with a V-12 expert who also can provide virtually any needed parts.

[Rusty_OToole]

OP asks about the crankshaft. It should be like a six cylinder crankshaft with longer crank pins to take 2 connecting rods. Best balance requires treating a V12 like 2 sixes on a common crankcase. Parts like pistons, rods, camshaft are similar to Ford but different sizes. Most parts are unique to the 12 but have a Ford family resemblance.

[Restorer32]

You need the same special tools to remove the valves on both Lincoln V-12s and Ford flatheads. 

[58L-Y8]

The H-series Lincoln V-12 was a badly compromised design for reasons mentioned, one not sited was the exhaust ported through the block to the lower outside which unnecessarily transferred more exhaust heat into the cooling system.  It was a major design flaw it shared with the Ford flathead V-8.

 

Also, buyers in the Zephyr and Continental price segment were accustomed to long-stroke, torquey cars that could be lugged in high gear, driven almost like an automatic transmission.  Driving a H-series Lincoln V-12 that way because it was a shorter stroked, higher rpm engine immediately magnified its compromised design mechanical problems.   

[John_Mereness]

24 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

You need the same special tools to remove the valves on both Lincoln V-12s and Ford flatheads. 

And, some specialized skills to get them all back in and properly adjusted so it does not sound like a thrashing machine. 

[Restorer32]

This is true.

[58L-Y8]

For comparison, here are the maximum torque rating the H-series Lincoln V-12 and major 1940-'41 competitors in its price segment:

Lincoln-Zephyr: 292 ci, 225 ft/lbs @ 1800 rpm

Chrysler eight: 323.5 ci, 260 ft/lbs @ 1600 rpm

Buick eight 320: 320.2 ci, 278 ft/lbs @ 2200 rpm

Cadillac 61: 346 ci, 283 ft/lbs @ 1700 rpm

[bryankazmer]

Packard eight:  356 in3, 292 ft-lbs @1800 rpm

[60FlatTop]

The time frame of the H series Lincoln V12 was not a good period to develop a reputation for service. Quite a bit of the time they were current the skilled service people were at war. After WWII there were a lot of less experienced young men in the job market. Some old guys won't like it, but the whole decade of the 1940's was at time of inexperienced and low trained service people. They were still around in the 1950's and '60's and I grew up surrounded by them. (one of my first reasons to buy books).

Today all the engines are well known. Predictable problems can be avoided, expenses can be planned, and reliability is a function of the mechanic not the designer.

For about 4 years I have been looking at V12 Continentals. I have thought about "unswapping" one of those early conversions if the opportunity arises.

Yesterday I was looking at a stack of The Way of the Zephyr magazines from the 1980's. I was thinking about putting them on Ebay. Technical articles are all through them, personal service experiences. The information is out there to study. Watch out for the hearsay and anecdotal experiences from non-owners. It will hold you back.

[padgett]

Any more anytime I consider a different car, first thing doneis to join/review the on-line forums. Nearly every make/model has one. Some are technical, others are Oh So Social. I tend to avoid the latter. Next thing is to look on eBay for service manuals. Many are electronic and less than $20. Some I have paid more for (Jeep and Crossfire CDs). It is all out there.

[Grimy]

From ancient memory:  A circa 1964 book by Ocee Ritch (yes!) called, I believe, "Lincoln Continental," has a section on improving the H-series V-12 engine including:

* modifying a later oil pump for higher capacity

* crankcase ventilation

* substituting  ca. 1951 Ford valves and one-piece guides for stock

* sleeving cylinders (increase to 331 cid) and running Ford V8 pistons and rings

* ..more...

 

I'm sure many of these techniques have been superseded, but the Lincoln Continental Ownrs Club (as padgett advises) is the best way to find out.

 

I've driven a couple, and they do need to be revved up through the gears, and perform quite nicely if you do so.  They are NOT the torque-at-low-RPM engines like Pierce, Cad, Packard, and Buick.

 

Where are our H-V12 folks when we need them?

[Peter S]

Thanks to all for a host of very knowledgeable and practical suggestions!

 

My takeaway is that a V12 is a problem child - it takes some special handling to be on best behavior.

 

There is also the issue of whether you think of your car as static or dynamic -- there would be nothing cooler than popping the hood and letting the crowd feast their eyes on a massive beast sprouting 12 spark plugs. On the other hand, there are many options to move it down the road smoother, faster and cheaper.

 

My situation is that a chum has a line on one that, not surprisingly, was pulled many years ago to be replaced by a Ford V8. The idea of bringing it back to life is intriguing but it sounds like it may be beyond my skills, besides which, I don't have a car to put it in.

 

If anybody is interested, I have become aware of a complete 1939 Zephyr with an 8 for sale in Northern VA that comes with a non-running extra  V12. The price seems a bit high. Check out ,https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2414074025352592/ to see it.

 

Thanks for all the help...

 

Peter S.

[1935Packard]

Really interesting thread.   I've long thought that the '38-'39 Zephyr was one of the most beautiful cars ever made.  I've fiddled with the idea of getting one, but the reputation of the engine held me back. So this is helpful info.

[Rusty_OToole]

16 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Parts are available. We recently rebuilt a '48. The '48 has a forged crankshaft, earlier ones do not. There is also a high capacity oil pump available as well as high capacity water pumps. If you buy it PM me and I will put you in touch with a V-12 expert who also can provide virtually any needed parts.

Can you tell us what it cost? Might be useful for those thinking of buying one or rebuilding one.

[58L-Y8]

As long as one understands the shortcoming and particular mechanical requirements of an H-series Lincoln V-12 and approaches with realistic expectation, ownership could be an enjoyable experience.   Fortuitously, the Continentals, particularly the 1946-'48 models have a high survival rate and hundreds were restored to a high standard.  For the individual who would enjoy one now, selecting the best one available for the money finds a wide selection to choose from.

[mercer09]

are you considering the Gullwing car? I looked at it myself but would consider another powerplant. I like original, but not headaches.

[Matt Harwood]

The rumors of the Lincoln V12's unreliability are greatly exaggerated. Don't be afraid to buy one because of the engine.

[Restorer32]

Earle Brown is the go to guy for Lincoln V 12 parts.

[8E45E]

23 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The rumors of the Lincoln V12's unreliability are greatly exaggerated. Don't be afraid to buy one because of the engine.

I agree that in good hands, it will serve one well, especially as it most likely won't be used on a daily basis.  There's a reason there is a high survival rate.

 

The ONLY V-12 that actually may be questionable is the 1942 model where the bore was increased to 2-15/16" from 2-3/4" to increase the displacement from 292 to 305 cubic inches.  It increased the horsepower from 125 to 130, but I believe it was the maximum possible bore for those engines, and not entirely certain if one is able to overbore a 305 because of that.  A Lincoln V-12 expert can certainly offer more information on it.

 

Craig

Edited October 27, 2019 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

15 hours ago, Peter S said:

there would be nothing cooler than popping the hood and letting the crowd feast their eyes on a massive beast sprouting 12 spark plugs.

 

V12's are kinda cool even when you can't see 12 plugs.

 

At this point there is nothing on the engine pictured that I would not fix if it failed, probably by myself.

 

[C Carl]

Yes, V12s are crowd pleasers. Owner pleasers too. My '98 SL600 has a wonderful V12 howl. Particularly around 2000 rpm. I have never driven, or even listened to a Lincoln 12 going through the rpm range. Being a higher revving engine, they may also sing a sweet song. Is this true ?     -    Carl 

 

 

[Ed Luddy]

8 hours ago, C Carl said:

Yes, V12s are crowd pleasers. Owner pleasers too. My '98 SL600 has a wonderful V12 howl. Particularly around 2000 rpm. I have never driven, or even listened to a Lincoln 12 going through the rpm range. Being a higher revving engine, they may also sing a sweet song. Is this true ?     -    Carl 

 

 

I love the sound of the Lincoln V 12, especially with rusted out mufflers! 

[Mssr. Bwatoe]

The H-V-12 is an engine that likes to run at high rpms, it did not breath well especially when lugged around town, which

amazingly it could do quite well.  It had hydraulic lifters after the first several years which rendered it almost silent in operation. Marginal oil quality,

poor maintenance and low speed driving contributed to the bad rap. I am a LZ owner/ driver for 40 years, and yes the 12 was not

a cheap overhaul, but when completed competently, with exacting tolerances, equipped with a Columbia 2 speed axle or

warner od it is an automobile that than travel modern highways with ease and comfort.  

[Mssr. Bwatoe]

https://www.lzoc.org/

 

Ck out the website, get some old issues of award winning "Way of the Zephyr  publication"

The club has nearly 1,000 members in every state and several foreign countries. We also have Regional Chapters to serve our members closer to home. If you have an interest in these cars, we'd love to hear from you.  Drop us a line or send us an e-mail, and we'll get a membership application to you by return mail. Or download and print an application and mail it to us. Within just a few weeks, you'll receive your first magazine and a list of all the items available from the club's "Lincolnalia" director, including back issues of our fine magazine.  As we update our biennial Membership Directory, you'll receive a copy.  Annual dues are as follows:

 

U.S. 3rd Class.................$50.00
U.S., Canada, Mexico 1st Class...$58.00
All Other Foreign Countries:
Air Mail...........................$68.00
 

For correspondence regarding membership transactions, send to:

LZOC, c/o Cornerstone Registrations, Ltd., PO Box 1715, Maple Grove, MN 55311, U.S.A.
Ph: 763-420-7829 Fax: 763-420-7849

      For general information and all other correspondence, send to:

LZOC, c/o Mr. Tom Brunner, 25609 N. Forest Rd., #10, Rio Verde, AZ 85263

      For items related to the club's magazine, The Way of the Zephyr, send correspondence to:

Mr. Richard L. Cole, Editor, The Way of the Zephyr, 200 E. Fesler #206, Santa Maria, CA 93454

      For correspondence relating to Lincolnalia and Back Issues, send to:

Mr. Robert Barr, PO Box 115, Sheboygan, WI, 53082

Edited October 27, 2019 by Mssr. Bwatoe (see edit history)

[Mssr. Bwatoe]

Zefferists are a passionate bunch, like others.. We understand they are not the machine that a Packard 12 , or Auburn, or Pierce..but

I fell in love at first sight..quirky but beautiful......