Electric cars and Tesla (PLEASE leave politics out of this thread!)

[TerryB]

14 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Well, if I'm driving 500 miles, it's doubtful I'm taking an hour for lunch in the middle.  So right there, this Jaguar cost me an hour.

 

Thing is, that hour is only part of it.  Can you imagine owning a car that you must constantly refuel, to the extent that several times a week you have to put your car out of commission for hours at a time?  Where almost every day you have to go through the exercise of plugging in and unplugging?

 

As they say, time is money.  And the EV uses a lot of your time.

 

IMHO, a better way to compare cars is miles per day.   As in, how many miles can you drive in a day at 60mph?   At 25 mpg with a 20 gallon tank and 15 minutes for a fillup, an IC car can go about 1400.  At 275 miles per charge with a 6 hour charge time, an EV can go about 720.

So an E V is not for you, ok got it!  There are many thousands of people willing to do this and don’t seem to mind the inconvenience.  Same argument goes for smartphones, computers, anything that is portable and runs on batteries.  Some will live with the inconveniences and just work around them.  I used to ride motorcycles with a guy who owned a Harley Sportster with a 2 1/2 gal gas tank good for 90 miles.  My Suzuki had a 5 gallon tank good for 200 miles.  I put up with his frequent need for gas. No big deal, it’s all in how much it matters to you.

Edited May 3, 2019 by TerryB (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

2 hours ago, ply33 said:

Many (most) people seem to be buying pickup trucks or SUVs. Apparently the price of a new pickup truck nowdays is close to 50K. Not really all that different than the price of a Tesla Model 3. Which of those two vehicles will get you to and from work, the gym and local stores more economically? My guess is the Tesla. (No, I don't own one nor do I plan on buying one.)

When you only have the resources for one, 50K is actually fairly cheap for a heavy duty pickup,  You don't want to be the guy with a Tesla when you have a Cord of Firewood to move,  A pile of scrap metal to haul, a trip to the lumber yard for anything from a pallet of pavers to a stack of 2 x 10 x 16's, or a piece of furniture or honestly just about anything that requires a real payload capability to move.   think of all the vendors you see at car shows,  not much would fit in a Tesla for most of those guys.  

I know i bought my truck used , paid less than half price for it 8 years ago.  It was 4 years old.  I know I wouldn't be buying a 4 year old Tesla. I don't want to be the last guy holding the bag when the batteries crap out and the factory has since dropped any support for that old clunker,  in favor of the latest models. 

  As you said to each their own.  I always wonder about the whole carbon footprint.  from the beginning of the production of the car and it's components to the day it is finally junked,  just like it's fossil fueled competitors.   Do we have real honest numbers on that,  or are they fluffed a bit.  That includes the production of the power to charge the Tesla over it's life.  I won't even mention the footprint of improving the grid to handle the added draw. 

[TerryB]

If it’s not for you, it’s not for you!  It’s simple, if you need a truck get one, if you don’t want an EV, don’t buy one if it doesn’t meet your needs.  The arguments presented show what works for some doesn’t work for others.  Nothing new there, if that wasn’t the case we would all be driving the same thing.  The technology behind automobile development will continue to change and all forms of choices will be available.  GM has announced its popular truck line will include electric choices.  Others will follow with what they feel meets customer demand. 

[maok]

Log the miles you do every day, for most, I would bet that an EV fits, and the running costs, fuel and servicing would be hellava lot cheaper. Once or twice a year you MAY need hire an ICE vehicle.

[KongaMan]

Say you need to hire a vehicle two weekends a month (not twice a year, unless you're just homebound).  Say it averages $50/day, with a mix of passenger cars for long-distance travel and larger vehicles for hauling.  That's another $2500/year that needs to be added on to the cost of owning an EV.  At $4/gallon and 25 MPG, that's the fuel cost for 15,000 miles of driving.

 

An EV works for those who go nowhere, do nothing, and don't value their time.  For everyone else, they're cool toys with dealbreaking shortcomings.

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

Harley Sportster with a 2 1/2 gal gas tank good for 90 miles

 

Time to refuel the Sportster........Maybe 2 minutes.

Refueling stations.........Can't swing a dead cat without hitting one.

Present day EV.........Maybe an hour

Present day refueling stations...........Do a search and hope no one's in front of you.

 

Unless the range is generously increased and charging time/stations vastly increased every trip other than local will be a logistical adventure.

 

Reminds me of when I first started flying jets with gas guzzler engines and limited range. Every trip over 1400 NM was iffy. We calculated and recalculated fuel burn and time remaining constantly. Adjusted and readjusted altitude and airspeed based on the head/tail wind. Checked and rechecked the weather at destination and calculated remaining fuel. Sometimes we made it and other times we had to make a fuel stop rather than run out.

But whenever  we did have to stop we radioed ahead, requested a "quick turn around", and were met by an idling fuel truck waiting to top us off ASAP.

 

I think how that now relates to the guy and his family in his EV pushing the energy envelope trying to get to grandma's on time. He calculated they could make it but the kids are getting whinney and the wife is asking if they will have to stop for "fuel". The guy  is looking at an expected head wind and calculating the juice remaining. His wife looking at her phone says there's some snow ahead. How the Hell will that affect his mileage? Maybe if he drops from 65MPH to 60 he could increase his range. He asks his wife to check the "book". She asks "why what's the matter?".  "Nothing, just curious" he lies. Pressing on making it non stop looks iffy. The thoughts of running out of juice with the wife and kids is out of the question. He tells her "we're going to have to stop for fuel". She say's "but we'll miss NaNa's birthday cake". Then... "I thought I told you to charge the car before we left". He says we didn't have time and it didn't need it, the gauge said almost full charge. Fixing him with a steely glare she says "you men are all the same".

Hoping to salvage the trip and not miss NaNa's cake she consults her phone and after several blind alleys and dropped calls finally finds a recharge station in range. She calls ahead hoping to arrange a "quick turn around" recharge. The attendant says he can help her recharge but the forecasted snow has everyone nervous and there is a 4 car wait it line........

Instead of NaNa's birthday cake the guy ends up getting a generous serving of hot tongue and cold shoulder.

The next day his EV mysteriously catches fire at the curb. No one is injured and the fire marshal can't help but question why the remains smell of gasoline. Nothing comes of it and his insurance pays for the car.

Last seen his family was riding around in a new Lexus....................Bob

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Nice EV story Bob!  Yes, the Sportster could find gas except when we were in rural West Virginia or the real backwoods of PA.  The gas panic started at 80 miles and by 90 miles it was sheer panic if no gas station was close by.  My Suzuki tanker actually held 5.25 gallons so I was the back up emergency refueling station.  We got by with a few close calls and a lot of unnecessary panic on his part.

 

Buy what you like and enjoy its good points and deal with its shortcomings!  That’s true if it’s 10 months old or 100 years old.  Nothing is perfect.

[billorn]

It seems there are two schools of thought here. One that is going to hate electric cars no matter what and find ways to say their wrong for they're life and poke holes in all the positives. No matter how good it gets it will never measure up for them because they have personal reasons to be against it. Thats ok.

 

Then there are those who keep an open mind to technology and see that if the masses are driving electric cars we who truly enjoy the feeling of owning and driving gas cars will be able to do it for longer. Theres an understanding that no technology is perfect and electric cars are about where the Model A was in terms of development and it will get better and wont be the end of gas cars.

 

Readers can see who is who pretty easy.

[auburnseeker]

4 minutes ago, billorn said:

Then there are those who keep an open mind to technology and see that if the masses are driving electric cars we who truly enjoy the feeling of owning and driving gas cars will be able to do it for longer.

Careful though as those that drive electric cars will also be those that institute policy then law to eliminate the use and possibly even ownership of any non electric vehicle as since they are fine with their's why should we need one.    I could see it happening quite easily with a stroke of the pen in the dark of night,  tucked into some other urgent legislation.  It's been tried and sometimes successfully with other things.   We all know not all legislation is drafted through careful thought and debate but often in feel good sessions where one person can say they eliminated those foul vehicles to save the planet.  

  I don't smoke and never have but I see smokers getting pushed around pretty well to the point of making it nearly illegal.  While I think smoking is bad,  I don't like seeing the rights trampled on because I can easily transpose that battle over to old cars.  Surprised there already hasn't been a harder push to get our archaic vehicles off the road in the name of safety . 

I told my son today when he was questioning me about some car stuff while i was prepping my truck for a run to Rhinebeck tomorrow and told him no matter how safe you try to make a new car a bad driver will always be a bad driver. 

Good intentions often get hijacked along the way. 

[Bhigdog]

23 minutes ago, billorn said:

It seems there are two schools of thought here. One that is going to hate electric cars no matter what and find ways to say their wrong for they're life and poke holes in all the positives. No matter how good it gets it will never measure up for them because they have personal reasons to be against it. Thats ok.

 

Then there are those who keep an open mind to technology and see that if the masses are driving electric cars we who truly enjoy the feeling of owning and driving gas cars will be able to do it for longer. Theres an understanding that no technology is perfect and electric cars are about where the Model A was in terms of development and it will get better and wont be the end of gas cars.

 

Readers can see who is who pretty easy.

I have no opinion on the merits or negatives of evs. But i do think its important to play the dsvils advocate from time to time to damp the almost cult like following....bob

[TerryB]

Just now, Bhigdog said:

I have no opinion on the merits or negatives of evs. But i do think its important to play the dsvils advocate from time to time to damp the almost cult like following....bob

Psst, computers and portable communication device usage is on the rise, time to put a word in on them before the cult wins!  I get a lot of grief for saying I like my IPad over a conventional computer, it’s the anti Apple gang out to change my mind. Same thing as these conversations.

[Bhigdog]

15 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Psst, computers and portable communication device usage is on the rise, time to put a word in on them before the cult wins!  I get a lot of grief for saying I like my IPad over a conventional computer, it’s the anti Apple gang out to change my mind. Same thing as these conversations.

Well, electronic devices and the over use of them does have some negatives but thats a story for another forum.....bob

[mike6024]

https://plugintothepresent.com/#home 

The new "electric for all" ad campaign scheduled to launch next month comes from a new non-profit organization, Veloz, made up of automakers, government agencies, non-profit advocates, utilities, charging networks, and others.

Charging network Electrify America, a major backer of Veloz, already used the tagline under license from Veloz in its "Jetstones" ad campaign.

 

They have also been running these ads on TV that actually show the cartoon characters Fred Flintstone and then George Jetson. You are supposedly one or the other. Can't find a version of that advertisement online though, only this one.

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

15 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

no matter how safe you try to make a new car a bad driver will always be a bad driver. 

Indeed. The national highway authority in NZ has adopted a policy that bad drivers exist, as do distracted very good drivers and they crash. The result is the same. But you can mitigate that result by attempting to make it so they can't hit anyone coming the other way or a pole or a bridge abutment or run down the bank or hit a bank or a tree. (But is there a distracted very good driver? If distracted, they are not a good driver?)

 

I don't think many of the posters here understand the dire state we are in. Insurance companies and now refusing to insure people against weather in some places because it has become more extreme in those places. In some places in NZ, they will not insure people against earthquake, or at all. The weather one is about climate change and it is affecting us and at an increasing rate, no matter what the deniers say. Island nations in the Pacific are being flooded by king tides now; they never used to be. The Arctic and Antarctic ice is melting, fast. The sea temperatures around this country are the warmest for many many years. Tropical whales are appearing here. Polar bears are moving into the towns in the north to find something to eat - there is no ice for them to hunt off. If we all continue to run our gas guzzling SUVs (which now have a large proportion of the new car market), we are hastening our demise. Why are cities and countries now demanding low or zero emission vehicles?

 

There are some here that are clearly vehemently against EVs. Just wait a while. Tesla's Model X has a good range, but it is a heavy beast. You are forgetting the demands in Europe that all new vehicles will be EV in five years. Yes, 5 years. Expect things to change fast over those years.

 

Range anxiety? Think about our old cars. Mine has a 10 gallon tank and will go 100 miles on a tank, or 130 with the bigger tires I used to have. I have to think carefully about where I am going! Was that the case back then? I suspect it was the same. Little fuel stops popped up in out of the way places to make a dollar. That is happening now too. The odd rural café has fitted a charging station I'm told.

[Locomobile]

I'd like to see Mr Jetsone pull this to the lake and down and back up the ramp with his Tesla.

 

It weighs about 8000 pounds. My old Silverado 1500 with 5.3 litre and 330 horses hauls it and it's 1500 pound trailer, no problem at all, walks over mountains like they aren't there. I pull it from Detroit to Waterford NY 750 miles in about 15 hours.

The tug is steam powered and runs on firewood.

-Ron

Edited May 4, 2019 by Locomobile (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

8 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

I'd like to see Mr Jetsone pull this to the lake and down and back up the ramp with his Tesla.

 

 

Close enough?

 

 

[maok]

Its a myth that an electric motor combined with a battery pack cannot out perform an ICE engine.

[Locomobile]

5 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Close enough?

 

Not really, one man can pull a semi on smooth pavement with a rope around his shoulders or in his teeth? or some silliness. I think his name is Magnus Magnusson? Moving it and towing it long distances at highway speeds are two different things.

 

No one has ever answered my question about how Tesla states that their batteries can last "the life of the vehicle" or eight to ten years etc, when ANY other source states that Li-Ion batteries have a life span of only 2-3 years and around 300 charge cycles. Is Tesla using some special battery technology?

 

Auburnseeker is quite right, people need to educate themselves on the wild claims that Musk and his ilk are making, so when they start trying to pass legislation to force people over to electric vehicles, people will know what is fact and fluff and make responsible decisions whether or not to reject their plans.

 

Myself personally, I wouldn't take an electric car if someone gave it to me, it would be utterly useless for my transportation needs. If someone else wants one, that's their business, but I would do some research and read the fine print as they say.

 

Tesla warrants the batteries for 8 years, as I mentioned in another post, this is just a big smoke and mirrors show with Musk at the controls. He figures the gig will be up in about 5 years and the battery warranty will be null and void,. because him and his tent will be back in Germany or wherever. Seriously, who sets up a multi-billion dollar auto manufacturing business in a tent? The Detroit Packard plant is still standing. (or just was recently) That is the clue right there, he knows it isn't going to last.

 

-Ron

 

[zepher]

34 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Close enough?

 

 

Traction is everything.

I've seen video where horses pull big rigs out of ice patches.

And do you honestly believe that Tesla could out tow a big rig?

 

[1912Staver]

The performance potential of electric's is not in question by many of us.  Much more important in my opinion is if they are really better for the environment than non- electric vehicles. And if so how large is the margin ? Enough to justify a substantial change in peoples lives?

 

 

Slightly off topic but still pertinent is the question of  recreations like the ever popular Cruise Ship industry.  These things are floating Climate Change factory's. I know they plug in to shore power when berthed in ports that have the plug in facility's but most of the time are consuming many tons of Diesel fuel each day, each ship. How can people expect us vintage car people to stop spoiling the planet if recreations like this are a growing industry ? They accomplish nothing, transport no one anywhere.

 

Greg

Edited May 4, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[maok]

Maybe a hybrid is a good option for some until they are convinced.

[CarNucopia]

23 hours ago, ply33 said:

 

When were those photos taken? That looks like a temporary setup. Last time I stopped at Harris Ranch was a few years ago and the Tesla charging station there was permanently installed without local generators. So my guess is the pictures were taken when they decided they needed something quick which was then replaced with a "real" charging station. A bit like the portable cell towers with generators that are sometimes rolled out into areas that have been hit by big storms and the grid power has failed.

 

Since two of the four pictures are with Model 3s, they can’t be much more then a year old.

 

The Harris Ranch picture is likely @ 3 years old. It was taken by a journalist who was there checking out the fake battery swap station.

[Locomobile]

I agree an electric car is powerful and fast. Early steam cars like mine were the fastest thing on four wheels when they were introduced. The I/C powered cars did well to achieve half the speed of the steamer, a 30 hp Stanley set the land speed record of 127 mph in 1906, but it was the tortoise and the hare scenario, same for the electric, The steamer was only faster for a short duration until it ran out of head pressure. The steady continuous power output of the I/C engine would outrun it in long distance races.

 

Lear tried to run Indy with a steam powered car and it was a failure, I don't think it ever even qualified.

 

 

[Frank DuVal]

31 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

ANY other source states that Li-Ion batteries have a life span of only 2-3 years and around 300 charge cycles.

 

Hmm, so why are people so intent on buying battery powered tools? Most are Li-Ion nowadays. Ni-Cad and Ni-Mh are so 1990 and 2000......😁

 

I use the drill 300 times and have to buy a new battery?  In a regular mechanic shop that would almost be buy  batteries every year for all the battery operated tools! 

 

I suspect your source is incorrect!☺️

 

The people driving Teslas 70+ miles a day to where I work seem to have no issues with them. And there is no charging station at work, they charge them at home for next day's use.

 

And just try to catch one of those model X ones accelerating away from you!

Edited May 4, 2019 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

3 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

And just try to catch one of those model X ones accelerating away from you!

 Oh just keep driving, it can be caught

 

-Ron

[ghostymosty]

I read this thread as I sit at home after driving my (bought used) Nissan Leaf to work for a whole week. As for battery life, the Leaf is a 2013 and is still using its original battery packs with 10 out of 12 bars of battery life remaining, 52000 miles. 2013 is the year the Leaf used a newer type battery made in Tennessee that is light years ahead of the 2011 and 2012 versions, an even better version came out in 2015 and again in 2018. Each new battery version lasts longer and gets more range than the one before. Right now I can go 72 miles on a charge but only count on 60 to be conservative, lasts me a whole week of getting to work and back with a 4 hour charge at work (240V)  that costs me nothing and weekend driving is from charging maybe 3 hours to get store trip miles added to the batteries using 120V at home. I can add charging for a few more hours at home if I need to go somewhere special. When I didn't charge for free at work because of daytime rain, I charged at home a few hours when I could and my electric bill went up by a whopping $10 in the month to get 200 miles of driving range.  Needless to say, I thumb my nose at gas prices (over $4 a gallon right now) quite often. The only drawback for me is that I can't drive long distance to look at old cars I might want to buy for a fun car when I don't want to drive my transportation appliance or when I want to drive long distance for something special. Yes, the Leaf is an appliance, I still like and would like to have an older gasoline powered automobile for a fun car but really wouldn't want to drive one everyday to work or the store just because of maintenance time and cost. I have lived the future and I really like it, a lot. Would I have even considered the Leaf if I drove 60miles a day commuting to work, not a chance! The Chevy Volt would have been my choice. 

[Locomobile]

5 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

I suspect your source is incorrect!☺️

 

I guess every search result on Google is incorrect?

 

And yes battery drill packs, li-Ion last about 3 years, we use them regularly at work and that's about what we get out of them. That is the reason I'm asking, we don't get 8 years out of a battery pack used daily. We've had Ni-cads and Li-po's etc, the only difference I see is the Li-po packs are lighter and smaller. Charge life, battery life looks to be about the same.

[mike6024]

That IS what I want, a steam powered car that can be run on firewood. For me firewood is free, and I'm all about free. Why try to heat my home with natural gas and get a $300 bill in the winter and still be cold? Use a wood stove, more heat and free. They are trying to ban wood stoves BTW. You can easily get fined $500 for using one on a winter day, that lacks a breeze to clear the air of your smoke, unless it is your only source of heat, and in that case it needs to be a modern one, EPA certified, and probably with a catalytic converter.

[Locomobile]

16 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

You can easily get fined $500 for using one on a winter day, that lacks a breeze to clear the air of your smoke, unless it is your only source of heat, and in that case it needs to be a modern one, EPA certified, and probably with a catalytic converter.

 

That must be a California thing.

 

Steam power is really clean, note the stack emissions on my tug, there are close to none because there is near complete combustion of the fuel. I/C engines cannot do that. My Locomobile running on kerosene is the same way. The fuel is burnt completely and there is very little pollution. That is why the car companies make the occasional foray into steam powered vehicles, the mileage kills it though, a typical steamer comparable in size in weight to modern car is lucky to get 10 mpg.

 

The tug is able to do that because the engine steam exhaust is routed out the firebox exhaust up the stack. This increases exhaust velocity and increases firebox draft air velocity, its essentially a supercharger.  Extracts the BTU's per pound of wood at a faster rate.

 

I've ran that tug thousands of miles and I've spent very little doing so. I'm a machinist and I do favors for a tree service and they give me as much wood as I want for free.  I originally built it as a novelty, but it's a pretty good boat. Handles well, dry in the rain, warm in cold weather, cheap to operate.

 

-Ron

Edited May 4, 2019 by Locomobile (see edit history)

[Kevin M]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

The performance potential of electric's is not in question by many of us.  Much more important in my opinion is if they are really better for the environment than non- electric vehicles. And if so how large is the margin ? Enough to justify a substantial change in peoples lives?

 

 

Slightly off topic but still pertinent is the question of  recreations like the ever popular Cruise Ship industry.  These things are floating Climate Change factory's. I know they plug in to shore power when berthed in ports that have the plug in facility's but most of the time are consuming many tons of Diesel fuel each day, each ship. How can people expect us vintage car people to stop spoiling the planet if recreations like this are a growing industry ? They accomplish nothing, transport no one anywhere.

 

Greg

The cruise industry is a very small sector of the maritime industry as a whole. It makes up less than 1% of the industry. The International Maritime Organization(IMO) has implemented that in 2020 all ship must have less than .5% sulfur content in their exhaust. Most companies are already On track by switching to low sulfur fuel oils and installing scrubbers in their ships. The maritime industry has been getting increasingly regulated ever since the grounding of the Torry Canyon in 1967 which caused the IMO to pass MARPOL 1972. The first real maritime pollution act. This mostly dealt with oil. Now it has six annex’s that the most recent is air pollution. Moving things by ship is far more efficient than anything else.

My ship I’m on now is a car carrier with about 900,000 sq feet of cargo space. We burn a barrel a mile, more or less. Most of the container ships that come into the states are between 5000 and 12000 box ships. They also burn about a barrel a mile. A hell of a lot better than that many tractor trailers. While cruise ships have a fairly large impact visually and culturally they aren’t a huge factor in worldwide pollution with only about 300 ships total. I agree cruises are a waste of time. I’d much rather have loner services again. But thanks to planes that won’t happen. 

[1912Staver]

On the 18,000 GT Ro-Ro ferry I recently retired from we also used roughly 3/4 of a barrel of fuel per mile . At 18000 Gt we were quite a bit smaller than a typical box ship. And we spent  aprox 3 hours a day pushing into the dock while loading and unloading so raising the fuel burned if calculated on a bbl. / mile basis. We have been  burning  normal low sulfur highway diesel for several years. However just after my retirement the ship was converted to run on dual fuel, diesel pilot and maneuvering, LNG while underway. I don't know the fuel consumption of the new arrangement.

 That still added up to a 50,000 litre load of fuel , 5 nights a week. That's a lot of emissions however you slice it. Scrubbers are still a long way off as a retrofit on most existing vessels. And the existing world wide fleet of heavy fuel ships puts a tremendous quantity of exhaust emissions up the stack. 

 Scrubbers would definitely help, however as retrofits they are quite problematic. If nothing else due to their size, not much room in the uptakes of many ships. And they require some maintenance once installed. Many third world ships suffer from lack of qualified engineers and maintenance personnel as it is , just one more system to neglect.

 

World wide the emissions from ships is quite staggering. The future outlook is improving due to newer regulations as you state, however it will be quite a few years at the soonest before a significant number of the existing fleet is retired and "greener" replacements take their place. 2020 is just the projected end of the data gathering stage. The date for full implementation is much further away.  Much of the deep sea fleet is on shaky ground financially and emission reduction equipment just adds another cost to an already troubled industry.   I know in many parts of the world a 20-25 year old ship is still considered to be a commercially viable proposition so it will be some time before all of todays ships are withdrawn from service. 

 Even with low sulfur fuel and scrubbers ships are far from "clean"

 

Greg

Edited May 4, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[mercer09]

 That still added up to a 50,000 litre load of fuel , 5 nights a week. That's a lot of emissions however you slice it. Scrubbers are still a long way off as a retrofit on most existing vessels. And the existing world wide fleet of heavy fuel ships puts a tremendous quantity of exhaust emissions up the stack. 

 

ships pollution is far worse then the automobile, but some on here think they will save the world with an electric car or two.............. so be it. everybodys mind is on what they want to think. Its a "feel good" situation.

 

My son sails as a 2nd engineer, he laughs when we have these discussions. He says, you should see the "shiat" we burn once we get out to sea. alls fair game in love and war!

[1912Staver]

And if you bunker in a Asian backwater port anything goes. Toxic waste, and Buda knows what all else. To call it bunker C is a definite complement .

 

Greg

[Locomobile]

This is the SS Badger one of the (maybe only) steamships left in the US still in commercial service (other than tourboats). It is a car ferry/passenger ship operating between Ludington? Michigan and Manitowoc Wisconsin on lake Michigan. The environmentalists have been going at them for years to convert to diesel. Their beef is not air quality (yet), but the dumping of ash in the lake. Than they'll be complaining about the diesel.

I really think some of these folks won't be happy until everyone is living in a tiny government furnished apartment and riding government furnished "light rail" transportation to get to and from their job if they feel like having one - willing to work for their universal basic income, and cars - electric cars will be luxury items for the rich elite ruling class. I think that is their ultimate goal whether they are aware of it or not.

 

Speaking of climate, there is still ice 30 inches thick right now on the north side of lake superior, very unusual for this time of year.

 

-Ron

 

[TerryB]

What you really have in the world is a whole bunch of people who don’t want the world and it’s environment to go to pot on their watch.  They are typically much younger than us and more in tune with global developments like Spiney mentioned in his post and are not content to sit back and do nothing.  

[auburnseeker]

Well if you want to really solve the problems,  start in third world countries and China.  When they reach our current level, of conservation, recycling and research/invention, then we'll talk.

Young people in general haven't had alot of real life experience on how an economy works.  Especially with the global market.  If you strangle your economy in the name of the environment,  your country will fail and eventually be taken over by another that didn't strangle theirs. There is a necessary balance that needs to be kept to survive between new and proven technology and energy / the production of  to exist.

[TerryB]

I’ve been to China multiple times, they know the problems they face and are doing something about it. They are seeing the degrading environment, especially air and water pollution will do nothing but destroy their future economic growth.  For them to be the power they want to be they have to fix that now.

[TerryB]

18 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

 

Young people in general haven't had alot of real life experience on how an economy works.

You might want to impart your wisdom on how the economy functions to the large number of young tech multimillionaires who have become exceedingly rich early in their lifetime.  Imagine how much money they would have if they actually knew what they were doing!

[zepher]

90% of the plastic in the ocean comes from just 2 areas.

Asia and Africa.

Let's start there before we do some meaningless things like ban plastic straws.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/

[1912Staver]

10 minutes ago, TerryB said:

You might want to impart your wisdom on how the economy functions to the large number of young tech multimillionaires who have become exceedingly rich early in their lifetime.  Imagine how much money they would have if they actually knew what they were doing!

 

A classic case of the right place at the right time. No special "super intelligence " just a decent idea at a very opportune time. Many of us would be in a similar place if the stars and planets aligned at the right time in our otherwise miserable lives .Lots of us actually do know what we are doing, just not with all the other external factors working in our favor. Some of us are destined to simply  be cogs in a very big wheel.

 

Greg

Edited May 5, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)