But Is It Really A Blight Issue?

[Guest SaddleRider]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:58 PM, Matt Harwood said:

. These particular cars, regardless of value, have been discarded and are now rotting......... Old doesn't mean valuable or interesting......... It's the hoarding sickness, plain and simple.....

 

Outstanding posts, Matt.    If anything,  Matt...you are being too kind to this guy. 

 

Those of us like  Matt who have been involved in old cars, their history, and trying to preserve them recognize the phenomena -  MENTAL ILLNESS.  

 

Matt is right - this guy isn't interested in a cars collection as such...he gets some emotional value from in his sick mind, the status of  having these cars. 

 

I am not aware of any signs he has engaged in any effort to preserve and/or restore to operation ANY of them.  The fact that these cars are rotting away and creating potential health hazards means nothing to the poor demented soul.

 

Yes, I do "have a dog in this fight".  Well...I did....so many times down thru the years I have seen vehicles destroyed by others of this guy's type,  to satisfy their mental sickness.

[poci1957]

17 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I was probably about 25 years old and stopped everywhere I saw a roadside collection of cars.....The owner was friendly and.....had a shoebox Ford convertible, very rotted, no top, and a shot interior.....been there close to a decade. .....I remember the quote "I saved it." coming from the owner.

 

He didn't "save" anything. He just owned it. Same as a lot of open air museum owners. The guys affliction.....make(s) me think "Whew! That could be me if I had worse social skills." Bernie

 

As a young man I also loved nothing more than seeing a hoard of old cars like this until I too realized that such cars sitting outside were not being "saved" but were destined to become a rusty eyesore.  Many such places were in the country where no one cared to complain, I suspect this one was too until the suburbs grew up to it.  200 cars is hoarding and hazardous for all the reasons the township stated, I agree with those who say he should have a big auction ASAP to get his maximum return and fastest liquidation. 

 

[1912Staver]

SaddleRider, next time you encounter one of these "poor demented souls" send them to my wife, she is a mental healthcare  professional.  Her schedule is pretty busy however , our local hospital ER sees 5 -10 actual mental health cases a day.  Not much capacity in the system for tax paying , property owner, car accumulators. I guess it all those pesky homeless, substance abusing, etc. people making all of the rest of us us suffer the horror of old cars on rural acreages.

And no we didn't meet on the job.

Greg in Canada

[60FlatTop]

Something I have written about before (not much comment, but a few squirms, I bet) is the legal ownership of cars. It has been my practice to take legal ownership by licensing every car in my name and receiving title whether I sell or disassemble. I never know what the final outcome will be.

Those particular 200 cars, bunches around the country like it, and even the onesy some hobbyist has been sinking time and money into need proof of ownership and 200 bills of sale from the same pad of paper with the same pen might not make it.

Imagine the local government removing those cars and billing the expense to to last legal owner on the VIN records.

 

I have been in this hobby for close to sixty years and have fairly acute powers of observation. It is a hobby full of people who "ain't quite right". I can say that because generally Buick owners think they are smarter than most people (see). I can run down the list of car manufacturer's names and give a pretty good personality profile of the collectors of each type of car. And the secluded hoarder with MB cars would be right up there with the oddest. I entered the hobby when having an old car was more of a social stigma than a sign of a wise collector. In fact, I was quite uneasy about the shift in image during the 1980's when a true value starting becoming attached to the hobby. I would be willing to bet that most of the traits I have developed over the years have come from trying NOT to be like car hobbyists I have observed, rather than following a role model, those are scarce. Writing this is making me smile

 

I have my truck for work and a car that I drive, my Wife has her car, and my Son lives with us. If I run out of shelter for old cars I rent a storage unit. It keeps me in control.

Look.

 

Bernie

[Xander Wildeisen]

I see all sides on this, and everyone is right in their opinions. I have a real rub with cities who use laws and codes to force people to do things. I had a shop at my house in the county. You would never know what I did there, no cars out. That area was going to be annexed into the city. I got on the committee and exposed fraud big time in the State. And I have been hammered for it. And now people are covering it up. This story out here will be told. NBC,ABC,CBS and the states largest news paper have a lot of info on all of this. I also love hearing about safety, safety, safety. DEQ did not mind messing with the well report, to dump a water system on people. Sometimes codes are needed, sometimes they are used to force people to do things, for the benefit of others. At this point with the crap I have seen out here with abuse of power, I say his land, his cars. 

[poci1957]

12 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

.....I can run down the list of car manufacturer's names and give a pretty good personality profile of the collectors of each type of car...... Bernie

 

I think I would like to see that Bernie, you should do a post on it, Todd C

 

 

[trimacar]

13 minutes ago, poci1957 said:

 

I think I would like to see that Bernie, you should do a post on it, Todd C

 

 

If you collect multiple types of cars, does that mean you have a multiple personality?  I'm starting to see a book coming together on this topic!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I always thought a book on the people in the hobby would be interesting.   Lots of quirky folks, lots of great people as well. Some who are both.   One would have to be able to laugh at ones self though, to not be offended I think. 

 

David, I am adding the comment that we essentially said the same thing at once, great minds think alike....

Edited September 21, 2017 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[poci1957]

Just now, trimacar said:

If you collect multiple types of cars, does that mean you have a multiple personality?  I'm starting to see a book coming together on this topic!

 

Exactly what I thought.....I have old Pontiacs but also an early Miata and previously Fiat and Alfa Spiders.  I suspect I may be covering more psychological ground than the norm, Todd C 

[auburnseeker]

I want to know what mine says.  I had a 57 Tbird, which I traded for a 48 Plymouth convertible, that became a 49 Chevy pickup, which then became a Hudson Pickup.  36 Cord, 40 Ford coupe, A 1956 Olds 2 door hardtop, 32 Ford Hot Rod, a 49 Merc coupe which I sold to buy a mini excavator to build a bigger garage. 36 Chrysler Convt.  39 Buick Conv't.  I have even been pondering a 2007-2009 Saturn Sky redline.  Had a 60 Corvette.  Kind of owned a 2009 Porsche Boxster.  The trail of cars above have been in the last 10 and most 5 years. 

Analyze away.  I actually would like to know how the cocktail mixes up. 

I know what they say about dogs and owners and sometimes boy they are spot on. 

[1912Staver]

Since several of the above posts have mentioned the health and safety aspect of old cars I am given to wonder if many of you have any experience living in a mixed Ag. / hobby farm / rural residential area ? I have for the last 25 years and I can assure you there is more concern from a well water / rodent , noise etc. point of view about normal Ag .practices that a bunch of old cars. My property was part of a large { for these parts at least} working dairy farm until it was subdivided off the large parcel in the early 1960's. The farm is still there however it is now producing Blueberry's rather than Dairy products. As well I am more or less surrounded by working farms , hobby farms, and horse properties.  There are pockets of rural residential 1 and 2 acre plots as well.

  The farming operations contribute an astonishing quantity of herbicides , pesticides, antibiotics, manure, spilled diesel fuel, noise , dust etc. to the environment every year.  Some of my residential neighbours complain; at times loudly to city hall and the media , but no I don't. I moved here knowing it was a farming area and am happy to live with all the drawbacks. And some of the farms have a pretty sizeable collection of old trucks ,tractors, implements etc, as often as not in very plain view. But in the eyes of everyone ; Township council included , that's just part of a farm.  I moved here to have room for my hobby, and paid a premium  price for the land to do so. No different than the people a few properties away with about 20 horses. 

I just don't buy the Idea that 100 old cars poses a dramatic risk to health. Most of them don't look to have rotted to anything near the point where they will be gushing automotive fluids.  If these cars represent a serious health risk the city 20 miles to the west of me with its million or so cars of all descriptions must be a true death trap.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Auburnseeker they are all substitutes for the elusive Auburn.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[cahartley]

This world would be a far better place if people simply minded their own business....... 

[C Carl]

Yeah. I think they should leave the old man (my age) alone. He is rural , and hurting no one. You really have to go out of your way or be a nosy busybody to even see his junk. One car a month , and it is all gone in 9 years anyway. No one complained when he only had 210 cars.  - Carl

[John348]

1 minute ago, C Carl said:

 No one complained when he only had 210 cars.  - Carl

 

How do you know that no one complained?

[Matt Harwood]

37 minutes ago, C Carl said:

Yeah. I think they should leave the old man (my age) alone. He is rural , and hurting no one. You really have to go out of your way or be a nosy busybody to even see his junk. One car a month , and it is all gone in 9 years anyway. No one complained when he only had 210 cars.  - Carl

 

So merely being old should get him off the hook? Wow. Carl, I love you man, but wow.

 

There's no way, left to his own devices, that he will actually sell any of those cars. Zero percent chance. And what happens when he dies after being "left alone" to continue to build his "collection" for a few more years? Whose problem are the cars once he's gone?

 

My 80-year-old father collects rare first-edition books. I told him just today at lunch that he needs to find a home for them now because I don't want the responsibility of caring for them properly since I don't know enough about them to ensure they find the right home. He agreed that it "shouldn't be my children's problem," and is going to send most of them to an auction in New York. That is the responsible, adult, reasonable thing to do, and they're just books that will fit in the back of a pickup and don't cause his neighbors grief and don't pollute the land. This guy, on the other hand, has almost a MILLION POUNDS of steel, glass, and plastic to dispose of before he dies, all of it half buried in the mud and ensconced by vegetation.

 

They already tried leaving him alone. Look what happened.

[C Carl]

I don't. But he is up to 218 at this point , and has been adding to this wrecking yard at an average rate of a dozen cars or so a year. Built it up at an approximate rate of a car a month. If he had been public enemy number one around there when he had 210 , or 209 , or 180 , or 175 , or 163 , or 162 , or 161 , or 156 , or.................................................................. , or 3 , any of which would still violate the letter of the statute , he could have been served at that point. He wasn't. See where I am going with this ? I agree with C.A. It doesn't make this world a better place to come down on this sick old man this way.

 

I have a city house where you may park your cars on the street only if you drive them every three days. I have a little ranch a couple or three hours away. By law , I must drive back and forth every three days to pollute the air and congest the roads. Or fly back from Spain. Or leave the cardiac ICU. That is the letter of the law. I own beautiful , insured cars , licensed , sometimes parked in front of my house. Leave me alone. I have contributed more to the well-being of my neighborhood than parking enforcement has or ever will. (Oh , I only saved a neighbors life on one of my many late night neighborhood patrols - on my time and my dime , by the way). That neighborhood is in a city with well-meaning , but for the most part , small-minded very provincial unsophisticated people. For the MOST part. O.K. ? Folks buy a cheap house near the airport because houses near the airport are cheap. Some people like to watch airplanes , even like the sound of them. Even suddenly realize that the Boeing 247 is taking off by the sound of its engines (sure doesn't happen often) , etc. 'Course when some of the other folk , non aviation types , move in , by and by they realize why their house is cheaper than an otherwise equivalent view house sited on high-bank waterfront. So they bitch about the noise , and want the airport moved. Same thing when people in that goofy city move into the flight path of the world's busiest seaplane base which has been serving for twice or three times as long as the rescent arrivals have been alive. I think you get the idea. Right ? I mean this guy doesn't have weekend long beer busts with loud music , nor barking dogs , nor run a stockyard or stinky slaughterhouse. No one can even see his junk unless they go out of their way. And he is not exactly  living in the well manicured neighborhoods of , say , parts of Beverly Hills , The Highlands , Port Washington , San Marino , or Carmel.

 

Judge not .......... Leave the old guy alone. Let him divest at the rate he accumulated. "Sometimes we ride on your horses , sometimes we ride on our own". Sometimes old men just listen to songs of their own. "Wake up to find out that you are the Eyes of the World". This does not require a Solomonic solution.   - Carl

[C Carl]

Oops. I made a mathematical error , as I often do. He needs to dump at a rate of 2 a month. Sorry.  - CC

[60FlatTop]

Here is a quote from the town code in question

"Sec. 36-702. - Parking and storage of vehicles.

 

 

(a)

Operative or inoperative automotive vehicles or trailers of any kind or type which are unlicensed shall not be parked or stored in any recreation-conservation, agriculture, residential, office, or RTM zoning district other than in completely enclosed buildings."

With this notation (Ord. of 7-22-2013, § 60.05)  2013, considering how many years he has been gathering the cars, that's kind of short notice with no mention of pre-existing situations.

Aside from the car issue, this is an example of the petty, pick pocketing, municipal money grabbers many communities, counties, and states the United States have become.  Where a warning may have been sufficient in the past, a ticket for violation helps fund the government today. Not just the local jurisdiction, but in many areas the county or state jumps in for a cut with "surcharges".

Playing the reverse question game: What lies between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans?" At first glance, one would obviously answer "Sherwood Forest". The government has more petty extortionists than Robin Hood had Merry Men, and they are all cashing in. You get those mailer community updates bragging that fines and penalties are supporting XX% of our budget needs.

I don't have a lot of empathy for someone who gets into a mess like that guy has, but I think a lot less of our elected extortionists.

I'll bet someone in town got ticketed for that updated 2013 code and pointed out this guy's collection saying "What about him?"

Please don't construe this as political. It is about money and the spirit of Robin Hood. You know, the term "connivers" just isn't used frequently enough these days.

Bernie

Edited September 21, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:58 PM, Matt Harwood said:

Since we're in the AACA, we often feel that all old cars must be saved. That's a mistake. These particular cars, regardless of value, have been discarded and are now rotting. That's not to say they can't be saved, but there are good versions of these cars all over the place for not a lot of money. Nobody's going to grab one of these for a restoration project (don't give me that "poor kid just starting in the hobby" crap--it's a fallacy). They're only going to sit and sit and sit until they return to the earth from which they came or this guy's heirs or the city have to come in and spend a small fortune to clean them up for him after he's dead. That's not fair. 

This! Exactly! I'm pretty sure if I would have walked in to this with my dad, rather than the dozen or so that I did, I would have tried to torch it all. For an heir with no experience, especially one who lives 2200 miles away, even a dozen well cared for cars required a huge sacrifice and much expense to deal with. 

[Stude Light]

5 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Since several of the above posts have mentioned the health and safety aspect of old cars I am given to wonder if many of you have any experience living in a mixed Ag. / hobby farm / rural residential area ? I have for the last 25 years and I can assure you there is more concern from a well water / rodent , noise etc. point of view about normal Ag .practices that a bunch of old cars. My property was part of a large { for these parts at least} working dairy farm until it was subdivided off the large parcel in the early 1960's. The farm is still there however it is now producing Blueberry's rather than Dairy products. As well I am more or less surrounded by working farms , hobby farms, and horse properties.  There are pockets of rural residential 1 and 2 acre plots as well.

  The farming operations contribute an astonishing quantity of herbicides , pesticides, antibiotics, manure, spilled diesel fuel, noise , dust etc. to the environment every year.  Some of my residential neighbours complain; at times loudly to city hall and the media , but no I don't. I moved here knowing it was a farming area and am happy to live with all the drawbacks. And some of the farms have a pretty sizeable collection of old trucks ,tractors, implements etc, as often as not in very plain view. But in the eyes of everyone ; Township council included , that's just part of a farm.  I moved here to have room for my hobby, and paid a premium  price for the land to do so. No different than the people a few properties away with about 20 horses. 

I just don't buy the Idea that 100 old cars poses a dramatic risk to health. Most of them don't look to have rotted to anything near the point where they will be gushing automotive fluids.  If these cars represent a serious health risk the city 20 miles to the west of me with its million or so cars of all descriptions must be a true death trap.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

I just moved off an 80 acre hobby farm that I owned for 21 years. I used it for farming, like it was zoned for (rural residential)....along with my neighboring farmers. I had my two project cars and a couple of tractors in my barn. Looked like a farming community around me, not a junkyard. I do feel for the guy and maybe a few folks on the forum can help him out but he did create his own problem.

 

I'm suprised this thread has been so active and garnered this much attention. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, Stude Light said:

I just moved off an 80 acre hobby farm that I owned for 21 years. I used it for farming, like it was zoned for (rural residential)....along with my neighboring farmers. I had my two project cars and a couple of tractors in my barn. Looked like a farming community around me, not a junkyard. I do feel for the guy and maybe a few folks on the forum can help him out but he did create his own problem.

 

I'm suprised this thread has been so active and garnered this much attention. 

I am not saying all the farms in my area look like junkyards , probably less than 10% . However the AG. runoff contamination of the groundwater in my area is a significant  concern with residents and government agencies alike. And it is on a scale that is thousands of times larger than contamination from vehicles. I don't drink my well water, and neither do quite a number of others in the area ,the bottled water venders in the area seem to be doing very well. 

 Actually the biggest "blight" in my area is the {as often as not offshore} investors that buy acreages and let them go to rack and ruin. The houses and outbuildings slowly dissolve here in the rainforest . And the whole place is completely taken over by blackberry vines within 5 years or so. Probably 20 property's like this with in a 2 mile radius, and when they sell it is for several  million $ and up. Not much chance of 90 % of the area residents coming up with that kind of $. Seems like many of them just become another commodity of global wealth. I doubt many of the owners spend any more time on the property than the 1/2 hour it took deciding to buy it.

 

Greg

Edited September 22, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

6 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

............... It is a hobby full of people who "ain't quite right"............ I can say that because generally Buick owners think they are smarter than most people (see). ...

 

I have my truck for work and a car that I drive, my Wife has her car, and my Son lives with us. If I run out of shelter for old cars I rent a storage unit. It keeps me in control...

 

Thank you for your opinions,  and the air shot of your property. 

 

I agree with you about Buick collectors,  but that's a separate issue.

 

You state you keep your collector cars (and presumably your various other mechanical devices)  under cover.    The air shot of your property  suggests you are a neat person with some respect for the land.

 

The above being the case,  can you explain to me how you feel your opinion is relevant to the issue raised in this "thread"....with this fellow  and his outdoor disposal of a mess of rotting automobiles .

[auburnseeker]

I don't like government forcing anything on anyone. I just went through the whole roundy round with them on my project in the woods.   My perspective is more a consideration for your neighbors as we all have to exist together.  I try not to impose on them or create what could be deemed an eyesore by the average person, in return I hope they extend the same courtesy and try not to impose something I might dislike on me.   Usually it works, unless you get that new person from the city who moves to the country and expects to change it to what they had in the city.  That's a whole different story.  

It's good to have a plan for stuff. 

I always told friends that wanted to drop cars at my shop for a while to store them,  they had to have a plan to sell it or work on it.  I wasn't going to store something out back to only watch it disintegrate into a valueless hulk. That's doing no one a favor and especially not them. They were usually the same type of guys who could use the money for self betterment in a different way.

Storage units are great for this type of person,  because they have to pay every month and most usually have to pay in cash in person, so to see that money just disappear in front of them,  puts it all in perspective for most.  The free storage route they tend to abuse. 

[victorialynn2]

7 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I have been in this hobby for close to sixty years and have fairly acute powers of observation. It is a hobby full of people who "ain't quite right". I can say that because generally Buick owners think they are smarter than most people (see). I can run down the list of car manufacturer's names and give a pretty good personality profile of the collectors of each type of car. 

 

Bernie, I have to ask... what about Ford guys and Corvair guys? This is really interesting and I wish you WOULD write about it. 

 

On another note, reading this thread it occurs to me I enjoy reading this forum because, even though some of you disagree about your viewpoints, the level of communication and tact is far superior that what I find with the younger generations and sites such as Facebook. There is a maturity I miss seeing in the modern communication style and you all just plain are so very informative. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

6 hours ago, cahartley said:

This world would be a far better place if people simply minded their own business....... 

That would grind government to a stop.

[nick8086]

One more . He could just donate 20 cars to the  township and take the tax write off..It would be their dime for clean up.. 

 

[60FlatTop]

12 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

Bernie, I have to ask... what about Ford guys and Corvair guys? This is really interesting and I wish you WOULD write about it.

 

I would hate to taint your personal observations with any preconceived notions I might tell you. I am sure you are getting to know them well by comparing your Dad to the people you have been getting acquainted with. Nothing is hidden deeply below the surface.

 

A ghost written guide would be entertaining. I have another identity, Owen Cornelius Dalton, that might be safe to use. But he doesn't get much done. Maybe it's in the initials.

Bernie

[95Cardinal]

If I knew this guy and cared about his situation, I might help him quickly sell enough of these vehicles to raise about $28k. That should be enough to pay the registration fees on the balance of the "collection".

 

Would the township then demand access to inspect the vehicles to determine if they were operational? 

 

It would be an interesting experiment...but not one on which I want to waste my time.

Edited September 24, 2017 by 95Cardinal
clarification (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

22 hours ago, nick8086 said:

One more . He could just donate 20 cars to the  township and take the tax write off..It would be their dime for clean up.. 

 

Their dime is really his dime, and the  neighbors that caused all of this.

[Xander Wildeisen]

He should just call for an environmental impact study, on how the cars have affected the local squirrels. That will ensure that the cars will not be moved for the rest of his life, while everyone waits for the results.

[John348]

33 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Their dime is really his dime, and the  neighbors that caused all of this.

 And he is not a neighbor? only they are? two way street my friend. 

[nick8086]

3 hours ago, John348 said:

 And he is not a neighbor? only they are? two way street my friend. 

 

 

I had a neighbor that would let it's dog run around with out a leash.. I pulled a kaiser out of storage and the car 

burps antifreeze. I told the neighbor the side effects of that stuff. I do not see the dog any more running in my yard.. 

It is now on a  dog leash..

 

I think if it will cost the township money.. They would of just left the guy alone.. Donate it to the township..

 

That is how we got rid of our warehouse.. It cost us 2K in fees to walk way from a 80K of  demolition costs...

Edited September 23, 2017 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

So who paid the $80,000?

[nick8086]

24 minutes ago, DAVES89 said:

So who paid the $80,000?

 

 

They did..  I think they applied for a federal grant also.. I did not get involved once they had the deed to the property..

 

 

[padgett]

Aside from the fact that it is 1400 miles away and each "free" car would cost at least $500 to import, I have to wonder abut the floors. For five cold years I went to school in Flint and cars there rot from the bottom up. I had a '67 Eldo in 1974 that said "No parking" on one floorboard and "School Zone" on the other.

 

Even if just driven one winter the salt they use on the roads gets everywhere. So really what we need first is an inventory and a condition rating. That will attract more people  than political discussions.

 

Can understand how this might get out of hand particularly if locals start treating it as a free junkyard which brings up another issue: how many have a clear title in the guy's name ? Dunno about Michigan but in Florida, many will not touch a car that does not have a clean Florida title in hand, often takes over a year and a lawyer to get a good title if not (though in Florida, you can insure and license a car you do not own).

 

Wasn't there something about a sawmill in DC ? Was there for years but when the Watergate was built they tried to have it declared an eyesore. Kinda backfired when study declared it a "historical site".

 

Does sound somewhat like the guy was railroaded into an unmanageable agreement and a fast lawyer could have fun with "duress". (IANAL)

[60FlatTop]

Warning: Cars dissolve in water.

 

Rain counts.

[John348]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

Warning: Cars dissolve in water.

 

Rain counts.

 

Only to be accelerated by rodent poop

[60FlatTop]

When entering a car parked outside for a long time don't step on the accelerator..

 

Is a raccoon a rodent? They'll make your eyes water.

 

 

[Guest SaddleRider]

POLLUTION

Couldn't agree more about pollution issues raised by several of our posters.    The damage being done to our planet by industrial farming methods is obscene.   Spreading salt on the roads of the north-east ( because people want to drive irresponsibly when the roads get slippery) is obscene.

 

Nothing changes the fact that if you start hoarding,  sooner or later someone may find out and complain.  If you havnt applied for and been granted permission to continue your hoarding,  government, sooner or later,  is going to come after you.

 

Living on a planet where there are governments can be annoying, especially if you have "your own way" of doing things.    

 

Given the conflict between an individual who wants to do things "his way"  and government.......only solution I can see is go to someplace where there is no government.