1925-25 Frustration

[dibarlaw]

I have been commenting and posting about my 1925-25 "Beulah" over the 4 1/2 years I have had it. All on the forum have been of great assistance on my issues. If it were not for Leif Holmberg I would not have the few golden moments to actually enjoy the car. To me it has been a lesson in patients and resignation to the Murphy's law philosophy. Staring with the chronic overheating that was finally cured with a re-cored radiator. So after 2 years of that issue we attempted to drive it to our Mason-Dixon meet 50 miles away. Down again, this time the clutch went out. Another summer gone pulling the rear axle and relining the clutch myself. Then rebuilding the Marvel carb and checking the bearings which were minimal then. I had hoped to get at least close to 1,000 miles of driving with it since we bought it.  I knew sooner than later we would need an engine re-build. But we have been able to drive it almost every weekend and we did finally get it to the Mason-Dixon show in 2015. I felt that we had at last gotten things sorted out. I felt confident enough to register it for the VMCCA's Nickel Tour this year. It did not make it.

 Since last November I have been trying to get the car in a little better shape to go to the National in Allentown and the Nickel tour. Any positive on the cosmetic application seems to beget a negative on the mechanical side. I have not posted much lately on the problems I have had since I felt I could finally locate and solve the issues.

Over the winter it was barely running with out backfiring so I went back to the carb. Along the way I did the following.

I had to refit the swollen die cast parts that I did before according to the Marvel book. Effect.....Same problem.

Fitted a new nitrophyl float from Gregg Lange. Viton tip for the needle and had to

make a special pilot lap to clean up the seat. (I was afraid to destroy the brass seat).  Effect.... Same

Checked the heat riser the second time for leaks and found none.                                Effect.... Same

Found shorted new condenser and replaced with an 80+ year old original.                  Effect... Ran better but not much longer. The carb was touchy and less power longer it ran.

I thought that this was the culprit. At least for a minute until the operation degraded again.

Re-checked compression. Which was better than when I first checked in 2012.           High, 65lbs low 60 lbs.

Re-timed (twice).                                                                                                             Effect ... Same

Changed out the coil. Rechecked wires. Touched up and checked points. Again!         Effect.... Same

Checked operation of the vacuum tank and no backing into the intake with fuel.           Effect.... Same

Yesterday I installed another 1925 Marvel Carb from Hugh in Texas hoping that would be my salvation. While I had the heat riser off again I thought I would check for leaks. AGAIN! At the very top where it bolts to the intake and the sleeve should be flush with the casting I did find a tiny gap of light. This would explain the fuel that would spill out from above the gasket when I removed the carb. I have plugs and blocking plates eliminating all heat access to the riser. I sealed this 1/16" step and gap with JB weld. I installed the carb from Hugh...                                                  Effect.... SAME!

 I now even have the correct metering pin link that I copied from the one Hugh lent me. Mine was 1/8 shorter.

I changed out the longer reach Champion plugs that I thought would work better since the 3077 Autolites are not available and went back to the 3076s.                                                                                                                             Effect....Same

Today I went to the garage to try another new distributer cap and found coolant all over the floor. The water pump had not leaked a drop for the last several months and decided to make up for lost time. (I knew before I could drive it again I would have to add more packing) but this just added insult to injury. I did change the cap and installed a new condenser making sure the lead was insulate from the plate.         Effect.....Same

What is happening....

 The car starts immediately and seems to run smooth as I push in the choke. Within 15-20 seconds the engine idle will slow a bit. Then it seems to start "rolling'. Then if I give it a bit of throttle it will back fire. I adjust the needle until it will accelerate with out backfiring and it may be ok for 30 seconds. Then it will try to slow again and I re-do the adjustments. This is the exact same behavior for each carb.

 My last thought was a statement the Terry W mentioned that I may have a stuck or burnt valve. This will be my next item to check. I have run out of options. 

My goals have been changed from driving the car to Allentown, to just be able get it on and off a trailer to the show field.

 I had to get away from the garage so I did not do something drastic to Beulah.

             

Edited July 21, 2016 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

Larry,

    I sent you an email....

[Leif Holmberg]

 Larry.

I have to ask you what type of vacuum canister do you have,is it a Stewart Warner ?(same type as Hugh?) if so take a real look as it inside,I wrote about my both 4 cyl.cars last year on this forum and had 2 different fault on those vacuum canisters.

Leif in Sweden.

[ROD W]

Larry,  

You have probably already done this,  try bypassing the vacuum tank with a container of fuel straight to the carb.  Take the float chamber lid off and is it full while the car is running. I was thinking maybe the float needle is sticking,   One car I had would not keep running unless I kept jiggling the float button  and sure enough the float pivot pin was worn and was sticking.     But then you changed carbs so you would,t  expect it to happen with both.  As Leif is saying, it sounds like it is starving for fuel. Just a couple of ideas.

Rod

 

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Boy I do understand Larry! Sometimes you have to just walk away for a bit.

 

Have you ever used a ColorTune? i have one and it is a truly neat gadget. You can see what kind of a burn you are getting inside the cylinder, it will tell you the fuel mixture as it fires.

 

http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/G4074

 

It's a UK product but you can get it on Amazon or fleaBay.

 

Cheers, Dave

[dibarlaw]

I have a glass inline ceramic filter below the vacuum tank and I can see that it is always staying full while things are running. I can hear the tank cycling so I believe things are OK.  I took Beulah out for a couple of mile drive. It started out alright but the longer I was driving it was running poorer (no power in 3rd gear). As I was getting her back in the garage it was popping again and shut off. Started immediately and was ok to back in the garage. I checked the valve operation and it does not appear that any are sticking.

Edited July 22, 2016 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Larry,

   I like the thought about making sure you are getting fuel. 

- Tapping on the carburetor float pin should make a temporary rich mixture, and you should notice something different in the way the car operates when you do this.  Hold it down long enough, and gas should come out the top of the carburetor and you can tell if there is sufficient fuel coming from the vacuum tank.  Does it look like plenty of flow if you hold this pin down.

- If you take the vacuum hose off the top of the vacuum tank,

     a) Can you push on the vacuum tank float with a coat hanger to ensure it is floating, and that you have fuel to the carburetor.

      b ) Can you put a vacuum gauge on the vacuum pipe with a rubber hose.  You should be able to tell a lot about the condition of the engine from the vacuum gauge readings. It should indicate stuck valves, timing issues, vacuum leaks, and the like.

- Have you sprayed carb cleaner around the intake manifold to look for air leaks while the motor is running?  A change in idle will indicate an air leak.

Trying to think of a good way to ensure the exhaust does not have a restriction.

- Have you used an induction timing light, and not just set static timing.  I am wanting to make sure the coil is firing enough voltage for the timing light to pick it up.   

- even using a dwell meter can tell you that the points are really working correctly.  Not sure what the dwell should be for your 25-25

    Bummer that the carb did not solve your problem, but it should also help you narrow down the list of culprits. 

Hugh

[Terry Wiegand]

Leif, in the top photo that you posted with the Red circled ? - what exactly are you telling us here?  In the photo of the vacuum tank float - again, the same question - please tell us what we are supposed to be looking at.  I had the vacuum tank rebuilt on my 1920.  Got it back and it seemed like it ran worse than before.  I ended up sending it back to the rebuilder and we discussed the possibility of a hairline crack in the die cast cover.  That was not the problem.  The culprit was the two long springs that was supposed to close the needle into the seat and shut off the vacuum from the manifold.  The needle was not seating and this caused the tank chamber to overfill and suck raw gas into the manifold on top of the carburetor.  Remember, my car is a 1920 and does not have the heat riser tube like Larry's '25 has.  The engine coughed, belched, backfired, and just generally ran like crap.  I pulled the plugs and they were dripping wet with fuel.  After getting the vacuum tank to operate as it should these problems went away.  We have talked this thing out until those proverbial cows came home and he still cannot get the engine to run properly.  I am at a total loss as to what is going on with the fuel system on his engine.  I have advised him to get in touch with John Wolf out in Ohio who rebuilds the Stewart-Warner vacuum tanks and tell him what is going on.  Maybe he can help him.  I am at a loss here as what to tell him.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

[dibarlaw]

Terry:

 I called John tonight and left a message.

[Matt Harwood]

I'm sorry to hear about these problems and I can totally understand your frustration. My father owned a 1925 Model 25 touring (well, it was a 25A but someone installed a folding top at some point) throughout my childhood and every single one of my bad experiences with old cars are tied to that particular car. It's why I expect to be stranded every time I go out in an old car and why I think my 1929 Cadillac is such a miracle simply because it gets us home every time. A lifetime of driving reliable old cars will never overcome the bad karma that Buick introduced into my life.

 

My father bought the car to use on the 1978 Glidden Tour. It ran properly about 20% of the time, but on that tour, he found that most of his problems were related to the vacuum tank. By retrofitting an electric fuel pump that did nothing more than refill the tank periodically, he got the car to run pretty well and finished the tour. But after a few years, it started showing the symptoms you are experiencing, particularly the loss of power. It would start and idle great all the time, but it would just lay down in high gear. Compression showed pretty normal, the carb was rebuilt and replaced a few times, and I can recall helping him time the engine late at night--he'd turn the crank and I'd look for the mark on the flywheel. None of it really helped and the car was a source of constant frustration. In fact, the worst moment of my entire life came when that car left us stranded and my father conned 10-year-old Matt into helping him push it off the road. Stupidly, I figured we were going to try to push start it and leaned into the bumper. In short order, it was obvious that my father had no intention of getting in the car to pop the clutch and he instead aimed it for the ditch, where it crashed with a sickening crunch, then he abandoned it. I called my mother to come get me (and the car--she called a flatbed and had it towed home for my sake).

 

The car sat unused in the shed for a few years until I could talk my father into giving it another try. He ultimately had the engine rebuilt and when he did, they found that the cam was nearly wiped out. That's why it would idle and why it would give up at speed. It's why it would backfire and spit sometimes and run perfectly other times. I don't know where they found another cam, or if they had one made, but afterwords it ran well enough to at least find a buyer and get rid of it. I drove it a few times and never had problems and it made plenty of power to cruise at 40-45 MPH. It was unlike it had ever been.

 

I also personally owned a 1924 Master Six Model 48 opera coupe two years ago. I got it in a trade and had no real desire to own it, but it was a package deal. When I got it, it would start but not run very well, again showing the same symptoms that you're describing. I took it to an old-school mechanic friend and had him give it a go. He rebuilt the carburetor and did a bunch of other little fiddly things, and I was able to successfully drive it home from his shop, a trip of about 25 miles. I was really impressed by how well it ran. Plenty of power. When I got home, I threw my two sons in and we decided to go for a ride. It died at a red light not 500 yards from our house and wouldn't re-start. My young sons and I were able to push it into a parking lot (believe me, I had flashbacks of helping my father push his car into the ditch), where it stayed for the next week while I tried various cures while working on the pavement. Ultimately, it turned out that the points would not stay in adjustment because the distributor shaft was shot. It wobbled around so much that the gap would change radically and knock everything out of alignment. Again, similar symptoms to what you're describing--it would start and idle but any speed or power would result in backfires, coughing, and death. I had the distributor shaft re-bushed and it seemed fine after that, but I hastily sold the car for a loss just to be rid of it. Bad karma again.

 

So I totally feel your sense of discouragement, Larry. My experience doesn't say that the fix will be cheap or easy, but both of these things are worth checking out. I've had the exact same symptoms with very similar cars, with two different problems that were not readily apparent during normal diagnostics. I will never, ever own a '20s Buick again, but maybe these experiences will help you get your car back on the road and help mend your heart. Believe me, I know how you're feeling all too well.

 

Good luck!

 

PS: I'll vouch for John Wolf--he does excellent work. I use him often.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Daves1940Buick56S]

"In short order, it was obvious that my father had no intention of getting in the car to pop the clutch and he instead aimed it for the ditch, where it crashed with a sickening crunch, then he abandoned it."

 

Horrifying, and yet sadly funny at the same time. I think we've all been there at one time or another.

 

Cheers, Dave

[Grimy]

A few suggestions for your consideration:

 

1.  Consider substituting a *known* good coil, such as from your 1937. As previously suggested, coils often will initially perform correctly, then fail as they warm up. I think you said you had "checked" the coil, but I'd prefer to substitute a known good unit from another car.

 

2.  Try a different condenser for the same reason, especially if you have an obsolete-style old condenser with wax paper insulators inside the "can"--these deteriorate on the shelf, so ancient NOS is no guarantee of function.  Or you can wire a modern condenser in addition to the one inside the distributor with the lead attached to the distributor side of the coil, but be sure to ground the condenser's case, perhaps temporarily with a jumper wire.  I carry a spare condenser in each car for just that purpose.

 

3.  Does the point adjustment "hold" or does it need to be adjusted frequently? Ten years ago, I had a major head-scratcher with my 1925 Pierce 80 in which it would idle well but would sputter terribly (1) above 800 rpm and (2) when any load was applied by beginning to engage the clutch. The point adjustment would not "hold."  This was a Delco 6-cyl distributor similar to yours.  I finally found that the vertical pivot post for the points was loose and wobbled, so that the point adjustment could not be maintained.  I was used to the points' vertical pivot being pressed into the distributor plate, but on removing the plate I found that the pivot was secured underneath the plate by a lock washer and nut.  The lock washer had fatigued over the years, allowing the nut to loosen.  A new #8 lock washer solved the problem! 

 

Best wishes for success in finding the problem!

[Leif Holmberg]

Terry.

The problem is that the nozzle should be staying in the head of the canister.If not the fuel goes thru the vacuum line to the engine as well as it going thru the carburetor at the same time.The same things happends when the float is "broken"(as in the picture earlier) and the gas also goes the way thru the vacuum line and the carb.at the same time.

Leif in Sweden.

[Leif Holmberg]

Larry.

Sorry to hear about all the problems on your "beluga".But the problems needs to be fixed in some way!

If I remember right you have fixed the tube inside the carb.heater?.But to be sure it really works,remove the heater and close the holes as in the picture and fill up with some liquide as "gas"or something like that.And to be sure it is close from the outlet you have to close all the hole as in the pictures.

I think that the lequage can be from the heater to the inlet when you are loosing power after driving a few miles.

I wish I could explain in a better way,but as you know my English language is limited.

Leif in Sweden.

[Terry Wiegand]

Matt, what you related to us about the camshaft in your father's '24 Buick is interesting to say the least.  This is the first time that I have ever heard about a problem with that area of the engine in relation to the fuel system operation.  What I can say is that I experienced the very same symptoms with my '20 as Larry is having with his '25 and once we got the vacuum tank squared away, life with this car suddenly became great again.  This is what is leading me to think that there is something going on with the vacuum tank on his engine that nobody is seeing or catching.  The only other thing that has not been mentioned very much is the fact that I run 100% pure gasoline in my car.  Do I think that this is the total answer to problems like he is having? - definitely not, but, I think it COULD contribute to an engine performance problem.  This blasted alcohol in the fuel is horrible in any engine old or new.  A perfect example of our government that has run amuck.  It is good to hear others have had great experience with John Wolf over in Ohio.  He is a good guy.  Very knowledgeable on these old Stewart-Warner fuel systems and a former old Buick owner on top of it all.  I hope that he can help Larry get to the root of the problem(s).

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

[Larry Schramm]

Larry,

 

Look at the bright side of things to come.  With you bringing the car to the meet, you will have a large group of knowledgeable persons to look at your car with fresh eyes.  Just be sure to bring enough tools for us to tear things apart and maybe put it back together. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

6 hours ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

"In short order, it was obvious that my father had no intention of getting in the car to pop the clutch and he instead aimed it for the ditch, where it crashed with a sickening crunch, then he abandoned it."

 

Horrifying, and yet sadly funny at the same time. I think we've all been there at one time or another.

 

Cheers, Dave

 

  LOL.  I have had to lock my sledge hammer up and "lose" the key a few times.

 

  Ben

[Brian_Heil]

With 60 psi you don't have a burnt valve. 

 

Also a stuck valve 'claps' like heck with about 3/4 of an inch lash .  You would hear it.

 

It's the first cycle of fuel from the vacuum tank not getting delivered correctly as Leif states since both carbs had identical issue.

 

Try a fuel can and hose and bypass the vacuum tank pump to confirm.

 

Best I can suggest Brother.

[Brian_Heil]

also is the vent line on the vacuum tank clear so the tank can drain?

 

vent in gas tank open too?

[dibarlaw]

Wow! Thanks to all for their contributions to the trouble shooting seminar. To address Leif's suggestion on checking for leaks in the steel sleeve  Leif told me about this process when I first got the car and have done all that he suggested. The fill up of the heat cavity of the riser showed no leaks. Since one has to make a blocking gasket for the top of the heat riser and the exhaust manifold port then thread in the bolts with sealer. The assembly is then turned upside down filled with fluid then watch for leaks. I did this in 2013 and again this March. I only caught the tiny gap at the top where the sleeve press fits 2 days ago I was puzzled why there was fuel spilling down from above the carb when I removed it. Apparently the blocking gasket I made for checking for leaks kept this sealed. (I mentioned my fix in a previous post.)

 

I have made plugs and plates so all heat access areas were blocked.

I have done all that has been suggested. I enjoyed Matt's description of his fathers car. He did not mention any of this when we first discussed my car on the forum years ago. Possibly did not want to discourage me? I had replaced the original die cast distributer with a cast iron one with really good bushings. I remember being able to stop the engine by applying slight finger pressure on the side of the case. It was really cobbled up. As one can see from the photo of the distributer on the right the bushing they made to fit in the housing allowed no access for grease. Plus a stack of copper crush gaskets for spacers.

 I had already checked my gas cap. (I used to love to mess with the kids in my Small Gas Engine class by putting a bit of tape under the gas cap.) I will try looking at the vacuum tank again today.

[27donb]

12 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

they found that the cam was nearly wiped out....

 

the distributor shaft was shot. It wobbled around so much that the gap would change radically and knock everything out of alignment...

 

That story Matt was interesting, but somewhat sad that you and your family had such poor luck with Buicks.  I wish that was not the case!

 

The only thing I can add is that the two problems you describe as the culprits were major.  In my opinion, chasing an intermittent problem, the worst thing that can happen is to take everything apart, adjust everything, and find nothing wrong. 

 

In some ways it would be a relief to say, hey the cam is worn out, or hey the distributor shaft is wobbly!

 

It's actually good news when something is found to be wrong.  Maybe these basic major things are playing a factor in Larry's problem.

 

Let me also say that I love using original parts and original systems, but I draw the line when it makes the car undrivable or this much unenjoyable and unreliable.

 

I use Carter BB1 updrafts, and electric fuel pumps, and have no issues.  Others have gone even further, flipped the manifold and used a downdraft carb too.

Edited July 22, 2016 by 27donb (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Update on todays activities. Last night I felt it was running well enough to get it on and off a trailer so leave it alone. So I decided to do some more clean up. Went over the upholstery. Started storing the tools, jack, tire pump, spare stuff etc. (Remember my statement that every upgrade cosmetically resulted in a downgrade mechanically). After reading all of the suggestions I decided to re-check the vacuum tank. I drained to check for sediment( just a bit) and had over 1 Qt. of gas drained out.  I then took off lines and made sure they were clean with no leaks or obstructions all the way back to the tank. The inlet screen was clean.  I removed the downstream ceramic filter in case it was dirty and restricting gravity fuel flow and replaced with a straight hose.  When I went to start today it was not cooperating. Had to make several attempts.  Up to this time it started instantly. Once it was running the adjustment game started again. Only one very narrow margin allowed it to run without backfiring. Of course the throttle was dead. Each time I drove it last night I had to snug up the newly added water pump packing until all was finally seated. While it was running I went over to the ignition side to make sure all plugs were firing properly. I felt like it was missing. That is when I saw the water pump wobbling trying to give up a chunk of the new packing. Yes. I did wind the new packing in the direction of the shaft rotation.
More Fun More Often.

[Brian_Heil]

If it were raining money, you'd get hit by a sack of pennies.

[Hubert_25-25]

Larry,

 

Have you tried putting a tachometer on the engine to record the speed, then removing one plug wire at a  time to see if any cylinders are not doing their fair share?  I know your car sounds like it is not just an individual cylinder miss, but you indicate an individual miss as one problem, and if this is resolved, it may lead to the bigger overall problem fix as well.  I am also still curious as to what your manifold vacuum reading is.  It should be a steady 17-21 inches, at least on a modern car.  Not sure what is "normal" for these lower compression engines.  I sure wish mine were up to the state of running so I could provide more assistance.     Hugh

[Dandy Dave]

Say, You don't by chance have an exhaust leak that is blowing the hot fumes into the carburetor. I have had that problem on different engines before. Even had one catch on fire because of it. ( Luckily it was an old 3/4ths swing Power Shovel so there was not much to burn other that a little fuel.) Tom Black also had a Buick that was doing just that a number of years ago. This will really make them run like crap and do just what you are saying. Just as a test, Put something between the exhaust pipe / manifold and the carburetor intake just to be sure that a leak in the exhaust isn't pre burning some the fuel some of the time before it gets in the engine. The hotter the engine gets and the faster you go the worse it gets. Dandy Dave!  

Edited July 24, 2016 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

And here are another thing than can be in wrong possision? And here you can see in what possision  it`s closed.

Leif in Sweden.

[dibarlaw]

Before I put in all the plugs, blocking plates and such to cut off all heat I did check that the exhaust heat valve was open. Since it was rusted (stuck open) the linkage has no control at this point since there is no set screw locking it. Just the rod set into position.

 The car seemed to at least run better yesterday so I was confident that today we could make at least a mile to church. Not! Within a block it lost power and started its popping and backfiring again. We were able to limp it back to the garage and then the water pump gave up a chunk of packing again. I threw the drain pan under the car and went to church to pray for forgiveness for my evil thoughts.

[unimogjohn]

Larry, I really acts like it is running out of fuel.  Like others suggested, I would rig up a small plastic gas container above the carb and let it gravity feed the carb and see how it does.  I think you should remove the vacuum fuel tank out of the mix.  Also could the line from the tank to the vacuum tank be restricted?  Might want to take an air gun and blow back into the main tank from the inlet pipe where it attaches to the vacuum pump.  

[Dandy Dave]

14 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Say, You don't by chance have an exhaust leak that is blowing the hot fumes into the carburetor. I have had that problem on different engines before. Even had one catch on fire because of it. ( Luckily it was an old 3/4ths swing Power Shovel so there was not much to burn other that a little fuel.) Tom Black also had a Buick that was doing just that a number of years ago. This will really make them run like crap and do just what you are saying. Just as a test, Put something between the exhaust pipe / manifold and the carburetor intake just to be sure that a leak in the exhaust isn't pre burning some the fuel some of the time before it gets in the engine. The hotter the engine gets and the faster you go the worse it gets. Dandy Dave!  

 

I hate being the last post on a page. Often it gets over looked. Dandy Dave! 

[midman]

Larry,

 

I'm sorry to hear that she still is not cooperating. As you know I am having similar problems with my 31. A different engine I know, but similar issues (maybe it's this crappy Pennsylvania gas ?). Try not to let it discourage you, it's a hobby and we don't need these bucket of bolts to get to work and feed the kids ( though I have to admit the car in the ditch idea has crossed my mind though I was thinking a cliff would be more suited to my car).

I think that you might get some answers in Allentown as someone mentioned.

I am really starting to lean towards vapor lock on mine at least as a contributing factor. Is there such a thing as partial vapor lock where it will still run but act fuel starved? Mine runs fairly well until fully up to temp and then I'm right back to backfiring at the carb unless I choke it.

Don't give up, you'll find the problem.

 

Chuck

[dibarlaw]

Chuck :

 Today I am trying a vacuum check . Since I am running a vacuum tank. I will disconnect the vacuum line from the tank and insert my gage at the manifold.  The quart + of fuel should run the engine long enough to get me some readings. Also I can refill the tank from the electric pump I left in line. I had been running non ethanol fuel.

 

[Restorer32]

On 7/22/2016 at 7:50 AM, First Born said:

 

  LOL.  I have had to lock my sledge hammer up and "lose" the key a few times.

 

  Ben

Back when we did all our own sandblasting we had an older Ingersol Rand gas air compressor that was so tempermental it would make the Pope cuss. Finally I took my 38 pistol and shot the radiator full of holes just so I wouldn't be tempted to fool with it any longer.

[tblack]

Larry...being a former multi-buick owner I can sympathize with your plight. As Dandy Dave mention I had a 23 buick model 38 cylinder that acted the sameway..it had a partial exhaust leak to the carb but the real culprit was a tired set of points. New points if you do not have them is a good starting point. Another issue I had on another buick was a coil that would break down as it heated up.  Electrical problems can mask themselves like a car not getting gas.

 

Other buicks I owned that at one point or another that were intermitantly cranky, were as Leif pointed out a bushing on the vacuum side loosening and then you get raw gas to the manifold. I also had a bee block the vacuum atomsperic vent not allowing the inner tank to gravity feed the carb.

 

If you suspect fuel set up a pony tank it that soves it you have trouble in the vacuum tank or tubing back to the main tank.  If the car still runs bad it is your carb or electrical.

 

Good luck

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Larry

Have you verified the Metering Pin is actually opening when it should ?

I made a Metering Pin and Link for my Master carb. Hugh provided dimensions for the Link which is same for both Master & Standard, and I sized the Metering Pin length to plug the MP jet when the carb butterfly was fully closed.
My limited understanding of Metering Pin function is that it stops fuel flow to High speed Jet when the throttle butterfly is closed and the engine is idling. 

Any change to thickness of 2 Gaskets in the Carb assembly can affect timing of Metering Pin lifting off the MP jet by changing the distance between MP jet and upper Link attach point on the throttle lever.  Slop in the pin joints may also delay opening of the MP jet, or a Link that has been straightened out could also delay opening.
 Opening and closing of MP jet can be observed by removing the float from the bowl and opening the throttle by hand and verify that it opens when it should, and stays open.

The carb pictured does not have a .060 copper clad gasket, just a partial fiber gasket that I added to determine the MP length.
The bowl assembly I am working with was from a Standard, so the MP jet is smaller than for Master so I will end up making another longer pin after the jet is drilled out to correct diameter for Master jet.
I need to find out the correct MP jet diameter for Master if anyone can check this.

 

Kevin

[dibarlaw]

Kevin:

 I have also made a new metering pin link from the one Hugh lent me. The one I had was 1/8" short. I installed his link onto his carb (that is on my car now).

[Hubert_25-25]

So we may need some help on this one.  Attached are photos of my carburetor assembled with all the correct gaskets, metering pin and metering pin linkage.  The first photo is of the throttle closed with the metering pin as low as it will go, and the 2nd photo is with the throttle fully open, and the metering pin is way out of the hole.  The metering pin has to be pulled out of the hole almost 1/4" (.230) from the bottomed out position just to be able to put the pin in the metering pin linkage when the throttle is closed.  So my metering pin linkage seems rather short from what I expected.  Larry I expect that you will see this problem on your carburetor too??  My metering pin has a "2" stamped in it near the linkage attachment point.  Any tips on how this metering pin should operate, as this does not seem right.  Thank you.   Hugh   

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Larry,

     This is a photo of the butterfly valve that is in the exhaust manifold of our cars.  Because my manifold is off, this photo is taken from the back side of the manifold that a person can not normally see.  This is at the front of the exhaust manifold.  I have labeled the positions of the butterfly O for Open and C for closed.  The valve has to be in the fully open position.  That means that the lever arm needs to be 45 degrees from vertical and pointed toward the rear of the car, and not the front.  If pointed 45 degrees toward the front, you will get no airflow to the muffler, especially with all the carburetor heating blanked off.  I also assume that your butterfly valve is not stuck internally.  I am just following up on one of Leif's comments.  Hugh

[old buicks]

dibarlaw,   I have been watching this thread and trying to figure out what is going on here.  I am having a similar problem with a 1910 model F Buick right now.   Tracked it down to a sticky lifter on the front cylinder.  I removed .002 from two adjoining sides of the square lifter and it cured the problem.  Question is,  how are the valve guides?   Looseness in the guides will cause all kinds of problems too.    As many of you know, I deal in NOS ignition parts for older cars.   Someone mentioned a new set of points.  I can't tell what distributor you now have on the car, but if you send me a picture of the points,  I will send you a new set free gratus to see if that helps.   my email address for the pictures is     tsvanmeet@gmail.com

[dibarlaw]

Thanks Tom:

 My distributer (on the left) is shown on post #20 on this thread. The 2 piece points are used. I had an other set of points which I re-dressed. I changed out 3 different condensers to try to keep the points from burning. My engine, as I originally stated is very tired.  I was just hoping to be able to get a few more miles from her before the big plunge into a rebuild. My new objective was to at least be able to get it on and off a trailer drive it around at the Allentown meet. My big issue is if I can drive it the 10 miles to the Wingate where we will be for the Pre-War After tour. (We will be driving our 1937 all week.) That will be where my friend Pete will have to pick it up with his trailer on Tuesday after the tour so we can come home together. Since it could not be left at the Bulgari compound.

 Hugh:

 While I had the carb off AGAIN yesterday I pulled the plug I made for the damper assembly just to double check since Leif mentioned it again. It is open.

 Yesterday after installing a new gasket on the heat riser to manifold things improved. No backfiring. Then I went to check on the ignition side and heard a snapping sound I pulled the spark plug cover and found the #6 wire at the 90 deg. boot had spark jumping to the block. (The first time this has ever happened) I had made all new wires and used modern 90 degree boots and connectors. (so everything fits under the cover) I added some of the plastic wire loom to cover the wires for extra insulation and re-routed them. No sparking now.

 We will see what new thing it decides to do today.

[Matt Harwood]

You know, there's still the ditch option...

 

 

I'm really pulling for you. I can't imagine that I'd be able to keep going back to that car and trying again the way you have. Your patience is extremely admirable! I hope to meet you and hopefully see the car in Allentown.