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1925-25 Frustration


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My distributer (on the left) is shown on post #20 on this thread. The 2 piece points are used. I had an other set of points which I re-dressed. I changed out 3 different condensers to try to keep the points from burning. My engine, as I originally stated is very tired.  I was just hoping to be able to get a few more miles from her before the big plunge into a rebuild.

 

Larry ..I too redressed points but once you lose the the hardened top coat the car will start and within minutes it runs like crap. I had the same thing on the short lived ownership of the 21 touring (bought and sold last spring before moving) It ran to the gas station and quit within a mile. I remembered the 1923 model 38 experience and ordered a nos set of points. End problem period .Sometimes the easiest solution is the least obvious. Good luck

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I have never heard of points being case hardened.  With so little mass/material, it would be very hard to do so, and then thinking about it, why case harden in the first place?  Harden all the way thru, OK I'd buy that.  I know they are very hard because is takes my honing stone to dress them.  Soft core?  Hmmmm.

 

I have seen points get too hot and also spark because of a lack of ballast resistor or too much voltage going thru the points with wrong ballast resistor.  My points have been dressed and ground for decades, they may even be original.  I had to make a new rubbing block on the point and since the original crumbled one day.  That was 12 years ago.

 

Not sure why all the discussion on carburetor.  I thought Larry did an A to B back to A carb. swap and the problem was identical.  That rules out carb.  These Buicks only get 10 mpg.  The vacuum tank holds less than a quart.  You might get 2 miles on one vacuum tank's worth of fuel and that's the distance your issues start except at idle when the fuel demand is much lower and it will idle well or may even be able to keep up with idle demand.

 

What about this electric fuel pump you mention that is not on all the time.  Does it free flow when off?  Have a ball check bypass?  No restriction? You should be able to put a length of hose on the fuel line just before the carb., suck on it and put the hose near the ground and get a strong syphon stream to show open vent on tank and no screens plugged.  You said you have been thru the vacuum tank.  I'm still waiting for you to hang a gas can and hose and bypass it with a gallon of gas.

 

Someone mentioned wiped out cam lobes.  A steel scale or dial indicator at the rocker would give an indication (this is possible but way out there on the probability distribution tail).  All 12 bad at once?  Not a chance. 

 

Stuck valves either stick closed and bend a push rod or stick open (the only way I've seen my Buick stick) and they clap like heck with 3/4 of an inch lash gap.  Even with one stuck, it will run on 5.

 

I'm very anti electric fuel pump as posted many times before.  You only need 1/3 of a psi of head pressure, that's what the distance is from the vac. tank to the carb. is and there is no pump that you can regulate this low and the carb. neddle/float was only designed for the 1/3 psi.  and when off, most cause a restriction.

 

I've seen 2 total loss fires due to these pumps and this issue on early cars.

 

 

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Larry /Brian.....the points are tungsten...very hard but eventually with repeated stone  redressing and after repeated burn pitting you get thru the tungsten in spots and the burn pit cycle gets worse.  The points I replaced on 2 different cars were at that point a fresh set cured my problems in both cases. The tale of woe on my 1923 model 38 was as long as this one and embarrassingly at the end it was simply a case of points replacement.

 

I pulled the quote from Larry that said he changed 3 condensers to stop the point burn.  That in my mind at least is signal that maybe something else is the problem...best running buick I ever owned was 1941 with pertronix ignition eliminating the pesky points all together.

 

Best of luck

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Agree with not having an electric fuel pump. I don't have one on the Chartreuse Lady. I never have to put any fuel in mine even when the car sits for a long time, like over the winter. And you have seen it perform Larry. A lot of old mags had Platinum points. These last for many years until the platinum wears away. And then they burn, like others have said, they just keep getting worse. Some old points can be replated using silver solder. I used a condenser from an 9N, 2N, 8N, Ford tractor because I did not trust the original and corroded 100+ year old original. Worst problem I had while recently on a Tour in Orange, Va was when a Spark Plug Wire came loose from the clip that held it to a Spark Plug. It happened on the hottest most Miserable day just before we stopped for Ice Cream. I was so Dehydrated that I was not my usual self and I opened the hood and overlooked it at first. Then Larry Schramm standing next to me with Brian Heil also looking on say's, "I see what is wrong." It was that obvious that I spotted it after he said something. Put it back together and get some much needed water and Ice Cream. It ran good and got us though the entire tour this trip. Will see how thing go on this next trip. Will look over the bugs in your car also in-between all of what is going on. A new set of eyes on things can make a difference often. Dandy Dave! 

Edited by Dandy Dave (see edit history)
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fwiw dept......the top of the vacuum cannister, when removed & flipped over, shows a very small vent hole.....somewhere......I've forgotten exactly where, thinking its in a casted boss......

That hole in my friends car was plugged right shut with the (hardened) sealant that had been previously used on the gasket. If I'm remembering correctly, that little vent hole aligns with another hole in the top of the body of the can requiring it (the top) to be in the correct radial position when re-assembled.

'25 Master 6 that now starts, runs & goes down the road like a champ......check my previous posts....all 6 pages......if you're interested, in reviewing what we did to get it to where it is now......don't give up.....ya gotta be "smarter the the car"

gpdc

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10 hours ago, gpdc said:

fwiw dept......the top of the vacuum cannister, when removed & flipped over, shows a very small vent hole.....somewhere......I've forgotten exactly where, thinking its in a casted boss......

That hole in my friends car was plugged right shut with the (hardened) sealant that had been previously used on the gasket. If I'm remembering correctly, that little vent hole aligns with another hole in the top of the body of the can requiring it (the top) to be in the correct radial position when re-assembled.

'25 Master 6 that now starts, runs & goes down the road like a champ......check my previous posts....all 6 pages......if you're interested, in reviewing what we did to get it to where it is now......don't give up.....ya gotta be "smarter the the car"

gpdc

 

One of the manuals (I think it might be the owners manual for export cars) actually tells you that you may have to hit the side of the vacuum tank to loosen any dirt that may be stuck in the valve 

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Larry:

 Thanks for the reference. This afternoon it seemed to run fine around the Bulgari complex as I was going to cover it before the impending storm. By the way, it is now sitting next to your truck in the garage. I asked Kieth Flickenger and he said that I could put it in. So Beulah is now in good company.

Edited by dibarlaw (see edit history)
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Larry, we are here with the 23 McLaughlin Buick.  Still in the trailer.  We will get it on the show field sometime early afternoon on Friday.   Glad you got inside, it rained hard all night.  Hope it clears for today and tomorrow.  

 

I had a thought re your running issues.  I once left my ignition retarded and the car ran terrible after it warmed up.  Went to full advance and she ran great for the rest of the tour.  Could you be running retarded?  I mean ignition timing :)

Edited by unimogjohn (see edit history)
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John:

 After spending the night amongst the (2) Model Fs, the 1909 Model G and Larry's Truck, I think they all got together and told my car "kid, straighten up and fly right". We drove Beulah around the grounds for about 15 minutes and she cooperated with no issues. We had many visitors to discuss our Buicks and share information. Several from New Zealand and Australia. By the end of the day we had 10 cars in the 20s group. 2 1923s, 2 1925s, 3 1927s, a 1928 and 2 1929s.

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Hi Larry, this is Frank Freda from long Island,(1925 standard six 25-20) we spoke at length about our marvel carbs; I had to leave when the wife could no longer stand the temp/sun. I went to Bob and got the two buick books you recommended. It was a pleasure to meet you and the others as well. I hope you got home safely as the weather turned from bad to horrible. Look forward to speaking with you again and thanks for the info.

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Frank:

Nice talking with you also. I know that things started to get busy. And then the rains came!!! If you wish I can send the copies I made from the Marvel MODEL T series carb booklet with the complete parts breakdown diagrams. I have to make new copies since the ones I had at the show were soaked. Even though I had a tarp on the car the rain still blew in. The rear carpet is still dripping from the line. 

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On 26 July 2016 at 3:27 PM, gr8success said:

So we may need some help on this one.  Attached are photos of my carburetor assembled with all the correct gaskets, metering pin and metering pin linkage.  The first photo is of the throttle closed with the metering pin as low as it will go, and the 2nd photo is with the throttle fully open, and the metering pin is way out of the hole.  The metering pin has to be pulled out of the hole almost 1/4" (.230) from the bottomed out position just to be able to put the pin in the metering pin linkage when the throttle is closed.  So my metering pin linkage seems rather short from what I expected.  Larry I expect that you will see this problem on your carburetor too??  My metering pin has a "2" stamped in it near the linkage attachment point.  Any tips on how this metering pin should operate, as this does not seem right.  Thank you.   Hugh   

 metering pin throttle closed.JPG

metering pin throttle full open.JPG

Hugh,

Not sure if anyone else answered your question so here I go anyway. I took the top off the bowl of our carburettor yesterday and our metering pin on the 26-25X does exactly the same as yours. On full throttle the pin is clear of the seat and with the throttle closed the pin has about 1/2 of its length inserted into the seat. Looks exactly the same as your great photos show. Of course this is no guarantee that this is correct but it gives a little more confidence that what we see is right. I didn't see a number stamped in to the pin but I'll take a closer look this weekend. I guess the other variable is at what point in the throttle movement does the pin actually start to clear the seat as that will be driven by the length of the linkage and the placement of the fulcrum so a modified linkage could in theory still allow the car to idle but it would be trouble under higher speed.

 

While trying to measure and look at the metering pin I made my own discovery. Our pin was not quite straight and had worn the seat in to a nice oval and the pin wasn't a good fit any more so I would guess it didn't shut off the fuel to the high speed jet properly and there would always be some fuel flow. Soldered the seat up and rebored it to match the pin diameter so can't wait to get back out on the road and see what this latest tweak has done

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Hi Larry, I need a wheel puller for my 1925 standard six and was wondering if you know the specs for such tool as there are three listed on ebay.  Any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated. 

Best regards, Frank

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Neil,

    Thank you for looking at this so that we can have a better understanding of what a marvel these carburetors are, or maybe it is a marvel that they work at all.   Attached are drawings of the 1925 standard metering pin and the connecting link.  The actual fuel metering pin section is 3/8" long.  I think the point on the tip is just to make sure it will not catch on the sides of the fuel hole.  It seems that it almost works as an on/off valve, where the high speed jet does not get all of its fuel until the pin is out of the hole at a little higher rpm range.  I like your solder fix, and I am curious regarding how it operates after you try it out.    Hugh 

 

1925 Buick Standard Metering pin.JPG

 

metering pin link.jpg

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Frank,

   I have a 1925-25, same as Larry's only in many more pieces.  Some puller dimensions first.  The wheel threads are 2.80 OD.  The hubcap is 2.760/2.770 ID. The threads are UNF 16.   I found a 2 3/4 -16 NF puller on Ebay.  It had a split with a bolt thru it in the threaded area to make the threads tight once screwed on, but the gap would not separate enough to even begin screwing it onto the wheel hub.  In frustration, I sent it back.  The next size up is 2 13/16, but that is an odd size too.  I am curious if there is a really special tool for these.    Hugh  

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We were at the Macungie PA. car show and flea Market today and did not get home till 10:00. I will dig out my sketch that I worked from to make mine. It is nice having a lathe. If you can not find one I can always make another for you.

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Hugh,

I agree this pin can only be regulating the fuel going to the high speed jet and in that it is either on or off. With the throttle wide open at low speed the air flow must not create sufficient vacuum to draw fuel through the high speed jet otherwise it would drown in fuel. I was surprised to see that it doesn't sit the shoulder of the pin on the seat to improve the seal but we'll call that another Marvel mystery. 

Started up the car yesterday for the first time since soldering the metering pin seat. The first notable change was it needed an increase in the fuel mix to get it to run so I'm thinking that the metering pin was allowing fuel past at idle and therefore was making up the shortfall, which after the seat repair it was no longer doing. An easy adjustment but I'm thinking I've been a little heavy handed as it might be a little fuel rich at the moment, but not too bad as its idling smoothly. Only plugged around the suburbian streets yesterday so could only test pick-up and it seems to be working well. We have a 200 mile rally in a few weeks which will certainly test the high speed jet as it is country miles

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On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 0:05 PM, Mark Shaw said:

Frank,

   WHEEL HUB PULLER: George McMurtry, PO Box 112, Bayard, NE, 69334, USA. Tel.: 308-586-1930 Email: gmcmurtry@embarqmail.com

 

Buick Hub Puller.jpg

 

All you need to do is send him a good hub cap so he can do the dimensions, etc. and he will make one for you that will fit perfectly. 

 

He made one for me a few years ago and it works great.

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  • 2 months later...

A bit of an update on the 1925-25 frustration. After the Allentown show we drove the car occasionally with still some of the same issues. No power and still popping a bit, constant adjustment of the carb etc. We have been getting familiar with the 1925-45 we brought home last week. Even though it still needs a through going over it is a much more powerful feeling car than the 1925-25. It really wants to get up and go! The owners son thought that the spark advance was a bit limited so I thought I would see how much play there was in the linkage. Oopps!  the whole distributer was loose. Their father had adapted an International distributer (Delco unit similar to a Chevy one) to replace the crumbling die-cast one. It has a screw adjustable clamp which is how it was mounted. That made it nearly impossible to get a wrench on the nut to hold while tightening up the screw on the distributer cup clamp. (S/G in the way). I thought ... Now how will I re-time this? I could not use the same steps as with an original set up. No nut to loosen and turn the distributer cam shaft. Only the case can be turned. I will at least go over the procedure where I was familiar ... with the 1925-25. Also for those of you who have done so, the service book illustrations have no bearing on reality. What I found on my 1925-25's flywheel was upside down and backwards of what the illustrations show and no defined mark. Barely visible on the opposite side of the illustration of the timing sight opening (illustration's left side shows defined mark) nothing on mine, there was a slight nick on the right side. That was what I assumed to be the timing mark.. I brightened up the 7 Degree garbled letters (no nicely scribed perpendicular line) and a slight nick in the flywheel with some yellow crayon. Well, I tried to re-time the 1925-25 again my self. Checking # 1 valve closing on compression stroke.. while bump hand cranking and trying to check flywheel position with a flashlight and magnifying glass. Then resetting cam position .... Result ... It ran worse.... I employed  my son Alex to help me with better (younger) eyes. After another session we finally got the distributer cam in position to open points when the backlash rocked forward and closed when rocked back.. Closed all up and went for a ride......Wow!. The car actually had some power and pick up! Not like the model 45 but very pleased with the performance.

Now tomorrow to tackle the model 45. It still starts and runs. I have yet to find a legible mark on the flywheel. I did a quick light sanding with a bit of 150 grit sanding belt fabric and a dowel at the timing hole while the flywheel was spinning. Again, does not look like the illustration. More Later....

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I may be "a day late and a dollar short"  but I recall a comment about the fuel sediment bowl having a stone filter in it.   I believe  that it should NOT be in the bowl.   That is a sediment bowl and not a fuel filter housing.   Since the carb is fed by gravity and not by a pressurized fuel system, that stone filter could be restricting the fuel just enough to be causing all sorts of delivery problems.   Take it out and give the car a good test drive.   Might be an easy fix. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Reading this I saw the comment of a new coil. Use any new 12 volt coil as a test replacement to see if this

is the problem as it reminds me of the same mystery running problem which occurred with my first 1940

Special and the coil was the culprit. Easy fix as 12 volt coil works perfectly on 6 volt systems. Jim

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