January BCA Bugle Letters to the editor regarding show field parking at national meets

[Mark Shaw]

Today I received my January 2014 issue of The BCA bugle. My letter to the editor is the second letter on page six. I believe it is no coincidence that it is immediately followed by a letter to the editor from the BCA National Meet Committee Chairman. I encourage you to read both letters and inform the BCA Board of Directors how you feel about the proposed change in parking policy for "All Together Parking" for all future BCA National Meets.

I also ask that you take time to follow the forum link below and read the comments made by other Buick owners who posted their thoughts about BCA parking arrangements for the 2013 BCA National Meet in South Bend IN. And note that these posts started over two months before the South Bend meet, in plenty of time to avoid these issues.

(Parking posts begin with Post 69 from Bill McLaughlin on page 3)

http://forums.aaca.org/f115/2013-bca-national-meet-south-bend-336752-3.html

[old-tank]

It is my understanding that "All Together Parking" is in place for the Portland meet, and in discussions with with the 'powers that be' that they ARE listening to these concerns. Maybe it is time to let this rest, but watch 'em closely.

Willie

[Mark Shaw]

Willie,

I disagree. Although Alan Oldfield did issue a statement to include: “As a one year trial, Buicks entered for Display and those in the Driven class will be parked together with the traditional 400 point judged classes.” He also stated “The decision for 2014 in no way impacts how the show field will be laid out in future meets”.

In my opinion, “All Together Parking By Era” needs to be a board decision and made part of the BCA Standard Operating Procedures for all future meets. It simply does not make sense for the BCA Chief Judge to segregate cars that are not subject to his judging.

[Centurion]

Mark, I read your letter to the editor after I received my Bugle yesterday, and I thought that your comments were excellent. For the record, I agree completely with your position on this matter.

Because of the proximity of the 2014 meet, I've seen this as an opportunity to generate new BCA memberships in my area. A national meet is a great recruiting tool for the BCA, and we need to ensure that the experience is as rewarding as possible. Frankly, I had concerns about inviting new folks to participate, knowing that their enthusiasm would be diminished by an unfortunate parking layout that left them feeling like second-class citizens. I know that it is no one's intention to communicate that the display-only or driven class cars are less worthy than the beautifully-restored or preserved examples, but a segregated parking lay-out robs a lot of the potential for enjoyment for all of us who have no appetite or suitable car for formal judging.

The most gratifying aspect of a National Meet has for me always been the camaraderie among fellow collectors in the parking lot, enjoying the cars together. I firmly believe that this element of the Meet is best served by parking the like-era cars and models together on the showfield.

I applaud the decision to suspend the recent practice of segregated parking for the 2014 National Meet.

[NTX5467]

(I'll admit that I haven't read Mark's letter or the other comments prior to this post.)

In the earlier days of the BCA, there was only ONE car show, the 400 Point Judged Show. These were supposed to be "The Best Buicks", so they received top billing and prominence at the event--as it should be. There was also "The Twelve Year Rule", which I've commented on many times, previously.

By observation, the BCA National Meets have become a big circus, to me. I don't mean that in a negative manner, but just to point out how much things have grown over the decades. Still, the main thing many people came for was "the car show", which became car shows as things grew with Modifieds (a show separate and unique from the existing 400 Point show, in those earlier times) and then the expansions to include the Driven Class, Archival, Modified Division, Reatta Division, etc. These additional classes/divisions also put more strain on the site selection operatives to accomodate the additional show cars--a daunting task. Still, the premier show was the 400 Point Judged Show.

Granted, the BCA National Meets are great marketing opportunities for the organization which also display the great diversity of Buicks to all that might care to look at them. I would also hope that spectators would stroll though the whole show to fully understand what Buick was and became in the various transitions over the decades . . . until more recent models. BUT, we all know that some people might get bored doing that, er rather, some would have greater tolerance levels of seeing cars they weren't interested in in order to get to the ones they were interested in.

Unfortunately, I suspect that as long as meets are held in hotel-area venues, the parking issues can become more troublesome. As we found out in our first Plano meet, although the respective hotel operatives might "have control" of an adjacent parcel of land, they have NO say in what corporate operatives want to do with that land--period. The hotel having "ownership" of the particular area is important, but also takes many chain-properties out of the mix really quick. Not unlike local managers having no control over when rennovations to their properties are scheduled . . . after any lodging contracts might have been signed by the appropriate BCA operatives.

To me, the ideal show field would be a huge, contiguous parking lot. Many hotels don't have those, as many downtown convention centers might . . . as Flint '88, for example.

Also, to me, the BCA National Meet show should showcase the "family aspect" of the parent organization and those who are members of it. I really don't like the "segregation" word when applied to non-400 Point Judged Buicks! I can also certainly understand how that word could be applied, considering some unplanned issues at the 2013 meet ("the fence"). Not to forget the alleged lack of sufficient signage and maps of the show fields being available for meet spectators and participants in 2013.

That being said, I still feel that all 400 Point Judged cars should have a special place to signify their additional prestige in the event. Or perhaps a special place for the returning/recertified Senior and similar-status cars? To me, these need to be the "high status" vehicles and should have some special place to recognize their significance.

Past that, there would be the regular 400 Point Show Field, as the "next tier down". Next would be what I'd term "Survivor" cars and "Archival" to demonstrate what good, unrestored Buicks are . . . to show their great durability and also to serve as "reference standards" for restored vehicles. The next transition would be the Driven Class, which can have "some changes" to make them more enjoyable through various upgrades to the base vehicle. This would then transition into the Modified Division area. Other speciality-type Buicks could be adjacent, in their own groups (Reattas, race, etc.).

Yes, such a show field would consume quite a bit of real estate! It would also allow the spectator to stroll through the whole gamut of Buick and Buick owners' orientations toward their cars. It could also allow spectators to gravitate toward Buicks of their liking, without having to "wade through" many they weren't that interested in. Certainly, we don't want the spectators to become bored and leave early, not having found cars they like to look at! The other key component of such a show field would be an accurate map of what's where! Such a show field could also make any judging operations more efficient, I suspect, such that judges would not have to walk the entire field to find cars in the class(es) they are judging. This might raise the question . . . "Are we more interested in serving the alleged interests of spectators rather than easing the steps walked by the show judges?" Certainly, in any "mixed-field" judged show situation, the information card on the cars should denote which judging criteria they are registered for . . . possibly using different colors for each group -- NO margin for error in this situation, either. More items for the circus ringmasters to ensure are orchestrated correctly?

When we did the Plano meets, some of these same discussions were had, but the answer from the BCA operatives was "No" each time -- the 400 Point Judging must be separate from other groups of non-400 Point Judged cars. Personally, I like "segmented" show fields, NOT "segregated" show fields -- there is a difference.

I know there are many different ways to approach the various show field(s) orientations at national-level car shows. The "transitional show field" I outlined above would, to me, be ideal from sevaral viewpoints . . . spectators, judging operations, marketing aspects . . . while also placing "prestige of attainment" vehicles where they can be better noticed by all.

In any show field, there can be many dynamics at play. For example, might a "strict originality" owner desire to be parked next to a Modified or Driven Class vehicle? Might a Driven Class owner, who might be a little skittish about putting their car in a show to start with, feel comfortable being next to a 400 Point Judged car? Or the freshly-restored 400 Point car being next to an Archival Class car with all items which are correct, but might not have been exactly and correctly restored . . . away from the un-molested original car, things would look fine, but next to a correct car, difference would be very obvious.

And then, you have to consider the reactions/comments of the spectators, who don't really know what they're looking at, all of the time. They could easily talk about how much more correct that Driven Class car might be (shiney paint where GM never put it, for example) than the correctly-restored car sitting next to it. For some, these things can grate on their nerves to no end . . . knowing they did it "right" and "others" don't recognize that as they have an incorrect orientation of what "right" really is.

End result is that there's a LOT more at play here than just seeing, for example, all of the '55 Buicks in ONE row on the show field. MANY considerations that might not be completely evident on the surface, but which can also greatly impact the participants and whether THEY want to participate in the future! This brings up the orientation that we have to market these events NOT just to spectators and potential new members, but ALSO to current and future show participants . . . that "Intention to Return" thing.

I know there have been many who have advocated for the "mixed-field" show, for quite some time. Now, all of the various aspects can be viewed up close and personal. I might suggest that all participants (and secondarily, the judging staff) be surveyed "after the fact" for their feelings of how things went, how they liked it, and if they want it to continue into the future . . . or should the segmented-field be reinstated? As with all surveys, how the surveys are worded and configured can possibly affect the answers received!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited January 16, 2014 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

There is something that is really bothering me about this last posting by NTX5467. Why can't you sign your full name like everyone else so the readers know who you are? I think that most readers will come to the conclusion that NTX5467 is in favor of treating some members and their cars like red-headed, left-handed, step children. In my opinion the thing that is being overlooked in this whole situation is the dividing up of the classes and putting the different groups in different places apart from one another. What is the point of having a National Meet and having different groups of vehicles scattered all over? I personally can see where this creates hard feelings amongst members and puts a burden on the viewing public to make sure that they have seen everything there is to see. What is so hard about putting everyone together in one spot at least?

The one point raised in the last posting is the finding of a facility with big enough grounds to accommodate 400+ vehicles parked in ONE area. That point makes a whole lot of sense. Anything else is just setting the meet up for confusion and ill will amongst members especially. I am calling for NTX5467 to come back on this forum thread and identify him or herself to the readers instead of hiding behind some moniker and trying to justify division of club members with a 'By God My Car is Better Than Yours and I Don't Want To Be Parked Next To You' mentality. What say you NTX5467. I am not looking for an argument and I am not posting this in a mean spirited way. I just feel that the readers of this forum deserve some common courtesy.

Just My Thoughts

Terry Wiegand

Doo Dah America

[ol' yeller]

There are lots of reasons why posters do not want their identities exposed to everyone on the world wide web. This should not diminish the importance of their opinions. NTX5467 has over 5,000 posts on this form and is well known to many of us who have been here for awhile. I am not defending his position, just his right to post it as he sees fit. If you look around this website, you will find that "everyone else" does not always post their name here.

I truly don't have an opinion about this topic and I will be showing my car at Portland.

[1953mack]

.....There is something that is really bothering me about this last posting by NTX5467. Why can't you sign your full name like everyone else so the readers know who you are?......Terry Wiegand

Your statement is bothering me. It's apparent that you lack the knowledge of navigating this Buick Forum. Check out NTX5467's profile and then check out your latest Buick Membership Roster. Enough said.

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

[Guest my3buicks]

Separating cars is a common practice at single marque meets as well as AACA National meets. I would like to see the Archival cars along side the 400 point judged cars though. I have no issue for driven class and modified class separate from the 400 point show cars. That said, they shouldn't be off behind some fence like an after thought. They need to be grouped right there with the rest of the show.

While this is going to come off sounding bad, many of the driven cars are just that, driven cars, and I mean by that many in the class look like they just came off the highway no cleaning up, no detailing, etc. Call me snobby or what you will, but if I bring a show car to a national meet that I've spent countless hours detailing and cleaning I honestly don't want to be parked alongside someone's driver that just wanted a good parking place. That said there are many beautiful drivers that show up at the meets and I don't want to put down the majority of the driven cars, but anybody that has been to the nationals know there are rats in the driven class every year.

I think the only reason this is an issue at all is because of the situation at last year's national.

The remedy is to make sure that never happens again.

[NTX5467]

"NTX5467" rather than my name? I have several various involvements in the car hobby and the North Texas Chapter, BCA. When I use "NTX5467", that means that my comments are MY OWN and they can't be transferred or construed to be related to "speaking for" my other involvements, as some might want to do. It also means that I don't need to put a disclaimer on my comments, as "I make these comments as a free-standing member of the BCA", which I've done in other posts in here. I hope that might explain that situation.

Mr. Wiegand, it appears that as you progress into your post, you tend to agree with me about "one place for all cars", which is what my post certainly mentioned and advocated for. My "transitional show field" would allow ALL cars to be in one place, at one time, for all to see and enjoy. It would also tend to streamline all judging activities, which can be a VERY big thing to those doing the physical judging of the vehicles. In the present 400 Point Judging scheme, cars ARE divided as to model year, as it's been for many years.

From my observations of being in and around many car shows over the years, there certainly ARE some people who feel their car is better than another car in the show, in their class. At one ISCA show in Wichita Falls, TX (about 20 years ago), I saw one owner request his classification be changed 4 times, as he saw which cars came in later and which ones his car would not show well against. After another show, one owner complained that he'd spent $5000 on his truck and didn't get a trophy, as if spending money would guarantee him getting a trophy of some kind (which it didn't, due to "the competition").

At a regional meet we hosted three years ago, there was a great car which came to the event. If you walked up to it, you'd be impressed with the NOS radiator hoses (including the paper tags on them!) and how well the car was done, then walk off to enjoy the other cars. Only thing was that it had serious issues with the correctness of the interior fabrics. That's the type of thing which would become extremely obvious when a restored (nicely-done, but incorrect) car is parked next to an Archival car. Which also brings up the issue of just which rules you restore/build a car to . . . what looks good with available resources, which can play well in general shows and weekend cruises, or what's supposed to be there from the factory (as a BCA-level show would require for authenticity).

Yes, the things I've mentioned, as to "dynamics of the situation", I've seen at car shows I've attended or have been involved in, over the years. Perhaps your observations have been different, which I respect.

The reason I might suggest the Senior and similar cars who are recertifying that status be placed in a different location, apart from the normal show field. These ARE and shold be "special cars", in many respects. Especially if they've been recertified a few times AND have seen "the streets" some. That doesn't necessarily make them "better", just that they've attained a high standard and have maintained it, which can be a huge accomplishment in itself. It also might make it easier to explain, to the spectators, what all of those grille badges mean and why some have them and others don't. I make this as a suggestion, no more, no less.

The reason I like "one big show field" is that it lends more of "a family" aspect to things. Of the cars and of the owners. Yes, there will be various groupings of cars within the one big group, that class thing, for judging purposes. But everybody will still be physically together in one place at one time, as it was in the Flint meet I mentioned. Yes, there were a few segments of vehicle types along the perimeter of the large parking lot, but it was obvious they were a part of the event, rather than otherwise.

Personally, I don't feel that ANY kind or type of Buick produced/powered vehicle of ANY model year should be excluded from any BCA National Meet, so long as the owner/displayer meets the BCA's criteria for being in the show (i.e., BCA membership or otherwise). But that's just me.

I believe that if my description of my "Transitional Show Field" is re-read, how that concept can work will become apparent. All cars in one place at one time, transitioning from the "high-level judged show cars", to the other divisions of the BCA, and back to the start. On ONE parking lot. Unfortunately, not all hotel-type venues can accomodate such a show field, as we've seen in many past BCA National Meets . . . yet it seems that BCA-ers desire to have their national meets at a host hotel venue with the show field at the same physical location. Be that as it may.

Now, for that disclaimer . . . I make these comments, and those in the original post, as a free-standing member of the BCA -- no more, no less.

Regards,

NTX5467

Willis Bell 20811

Edited January 17, 2014 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest BJM]

I know from past experience that forum posts noting a hot button political topic usually do not accomplish anything. I would go with the one year rule, and then when the BOD is seated and present at the Portland meet then bring it up there. THAT is what that opportunity is all about. We read time and again that few attend that BOD meeting.

Get someone, likely the President, on record as saying an action will or will not be taken, then if there is nothing done or the can keeps getting kicked down the road, then hold those members responsible by voting them on or off the BOD. Rather then voting for BOD members that wax poetic about loving Buicks and the hobby and kids and dogs, look for BOD bio-essays where the candidate states specifically what he will or will not do and how he/she will vote.

On the other hand I am 100% sure that every BOD member is lurking on this post and has read your comments. I don't understand why these topics can't be dealt with with phone calls, PM's and emails since virtually every member with an interest is among the brightest, smartest and most accomplished in the hobby.

FWIW. Have a nice day.

Edited January 17, 2014 by BJM (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Portland parking is set. Let's be sure this issue is on the agenda of the BOD meeting in Portland. Those with an interest in this should then address the board. I addressed the board last year and had so much fun that I may do it again .

Willie

[Mark Shaw]

The Chief Judge and the National Meet Committee answer to the BCA Board of Directors. Portland parking is only set in the mind of the Chief Judge. However, if the BCA Board of Directors quit dragging their feet to make a ruling on making All Together Parking BCA Policy, it could still change for the BCA National Meet in Portland this year.

[Guest my3buicks]

I think it is a subject the board needs to take it's time on and get lots of feedback. It's a tough decision. I think in the end it would hurt the attendance of point judged cars. Those that go the extra mile to bring their car to show standards really will not be thrilled to have the family wagon sitting beside them with 5 kids and a dog in and out of it all day. 'There is a driven class for a reason.

[adoldfield]

One of the joys of attending a BCA national meet is that it moves to a different location from year to year, giving those attending an opportunity to enjoy many different parts of the country.

With that, each venue presents its own challenges. Each year, the goal is to find a suitable host city with the right combination of hotels, attractions, and parking.

With the BCA National meet in Portland next year, BCA members will enjoy a beautiful part of the country, with a large hotel and a sizeable parking lot.

At this meet, Buicks entered in Display and in the Driven class will be parked together with the traditional 400 point judged classes. Some members have requested such an arrangement. This is a complete change from the beginning of the Driven Class, when the founders envisioned Driven cars as a unique class, separate and distinct from any other classes, complete with its own unique recognition of participants.

I have personally spoken with Driven Class Chairman Brian DePouli, who supports this decision.

Parking Driven Class cars with the traditional 400 point classes in Portland presents its own challenges. It will require dramatically more volunteers to staff the showfield than we had in South Bend. It will necessitate that registration deadlines are adhered to. Integrating the traditional 400 point, Driven, and Display cars together will require meticulous planning to lay out the showfield.

The decision for 2014 will help inform how the showfield will be laid out in future meets. Because each national meet presents its own unique parking situation, it is the decision of the Chief Judge of the Meet to lay out the showfield, as stated in the BCA judging manual. This is BCA policy, as approved by the Board of Directors years ago.

Obviously, the experiences of Portland will be weighed in planning for 2015 and beyond.

Now, a personal note. For those vocal few who make a hobby of inventing conspiracies where there is none, I beseech you to see this for what it is. This move is honest, and straight forward. Some people in the driven class asked for “all-together” parking, and we’re going to try it in Portland. It’s that simple. If it works well in Portland, we’ll have that experience to draw upon for future meets.

There are people on both sides of “all together” parking. Not everyone feels as Mr. Shaw. I have heard from many of them, too.

Every meet has to be laid out considering the facility, and the space we have for the showfield.

For anyone who’s been involved in some national meets, I know you can appreciate that setting up the showfield takes time, planning, and people. There are many other areas that depend on reliable volunteers to make it work for all participants. Perhaps you would consider volunteering to help at the national meet, and being part of the solution to making it run well?

I hope to see many of you in Portland, which will be a great meet!

Please believe me when I say that I have talked to many people with different opinions on the parking issue. If you have genuine questions or constructive comments, feel free to contact me. I would be delighted to hear from you. If you just want to grind your ax some more, I’ve probably already heard that.

Respectfully submitted,

Alan D. Oldfield

BCA National Chief Judge

adoldfield@aol.com

[JohnD1956]

I'd be interested in knowing more about the need for a dramatic increase of volunteers to accomplish this parking scenario. Not that I doubt we need more help, but more along the lines of what tasks these volunteers are needed to perform. And what problems they might encounter doing their requested tasks.

[retirednow]

I think the ones that "go the extra mile" are those that actually drive their cars those extra miles .Buicks were made to be driven

I think it is a subject the board needs to take it's time on and get lots of feedback. It's a tough decision. I think in the end it would hurt the attendance of point judged cars. Those that go the extra mile to bring their car to show standards really will not be thrilled to have the family wagon sitting beside them with 5 kids and a dog in and out of it all day. 'There is a driven class for a reason.

[Guest my3buicks]

Dave, I drive mine to every meet they go to, so don't give me that sermon.

[retirednow]

That's great! Wasn't giving a sermon, just my opinion

Edited January 19, 2014 by retirednow (see edit history)

[38Buick 80C]

I have personally spoken with Driven Class Chairman Brian DePouli, who supports this decision.

I do fully support the decision and am thrilled we are open to trying this because the complaint most frequently heard (by me as DC chairman) from driven class participants is that they do not like being separated. I for one am interested to see the feedback we get from members.

As for 2015 and beyond I am certainly in favor of all together parking, but it's not my decision, it's the membership's decision...IT'S YOUR CLUB!! If you respectfully make your opinion known to the BOD, the BOD will listen to the membership. But if you feel the BOD isn't listening to to your desires, vote in a different BOD, elections are coming up in April with 1/3 of the BOD eligible to be replaced. Or better yet, run for BOD, bio's and a picture are due to Pete by Feb 20th you simply have to be a paid up member in the BCA to run.

It's your club!

[dship]

Alan & Brian...very well said...just my opinion...

[Mark Shaw]

My intent here is not to "grid the axe", but to clarify the point in light of some of the comments made here....

I find it interesting that some avoid using the term "Segregated" when that is exactly what the National Meet Committee and the Chief Judge did to most of the non-judged cars at our last National Meet. There is no question that non-judged cars are in the minority at BCA National Meets. And if you are not in the minority, you are not inclined to change the policy.

In my letter to the editor of The Bugle I have encouraged members to submit their opinion on the All Together Parking issue. Before the publication deadline, BCA Board members, National Meet Committee members and the Chief Judge repeatedly asked me not to publish my letter. However, none of the BCA leadership has yet initiated a poll of the members to determine what parking policy the membership wants. I wrote the letter because I was so disappointed with parking arrangements at South Bend and my complaints and suggestions were either ignored or dismissed. So, I wonder if anyone in the BCA leadership is counting how many members wrote emails and letters that are for or against All Together Parking.....

Edited January 20, 2014 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[38Buick 80C]

Also I should note I support Mark as well he is making his case for change and encouraging other to voice theirs. Some agree some don't and that's fair.

[adoldfield]

Mr Shaw

Let's be clear. I never asked you not to publish your letter. I suggested that since you got your way, you might not need to. Clearly, your opinion has been neither ignored, nor dismissed.

Alan Oldfield

[buick5563]

Dave, I drive mine to every meet they go to, so don't give me that sermon.

FWIW, I drive mine also. Senior car included, so all drivers are not "ugly". I know that Keith's car is gorgeous.

I am on the Driven Class committee and I personally want to try and give Driven Awards at registration so that you get the plaque (if that is what you want), the BCA gets some additional money from entering different categories, and then be able to park within your class either as a judged car or display only. I have seen some heinous cars get judged, so what is the difference between that and a very nice display only car?

I vote for all together parking.

Y'all already knew that

[MrEarl]

Firstly I support some form of all together parking, I just think there needs to be more discussion and research into it and the results of the upcoming trial period in Portland used to determine the final process.

Although a lengthy read, I encourage everyone to take the time TO read or re-read Willis's / NTX5467's posts. He makes MANY good past show field observations and offers some good thoughts and comments of how it could work. In my opinion his ideas make for a "perfect show field". My personal version of it would go more like... as the judges and spectators walk by....400 Point - Archival - Driven - Modified - Display.

I applaud Willis for taking the time to think through all the scenarios and summarize and post his thoughts here. Perhaps a little more "summarizing" could make it more presentable to the BOD.

(I'll admit that I haven't read Mark's letter or the other comments prior to this post.)

In the earlier days of the BCA, there was only ONE car show, the 400 Point Judged Show. These were supposed to be "The Best Buicks", so they received top billing and prominence at the event--as it should be. There was also "The Twelve Year Rule", which I've commented on many times, previously.

By observation, the BCA National Meets have become a big circus, to me. I don't mean that in a negative manner, but just to point out how much things have grown over the decades. Still, the main thing many people came for was "the car show", which became car shows as things grew with Modifieds (a show separate and unique from the existing 400 Point show, in those earlier times) and then the expansions to include the Driven Class, Archival, Modified Division, Reatta Division, etc. These additional classes/divisions also put more strain on the site selection operatives to accomodate the additional show cars--a daunting task. Still, the premier show was the 400 Point Judged Show.

Granted, the BCA National Meets are great marketing opportunities for the organization which also display the great diversity of Buicks to all that might care to look at them. I would also hope that spectators would stroll though the whole show to fully understand what Buick was and became in the various transitions over the decades . . . until more recent models. BUT, we all know that some people might get bored doing that, er rather, some would have greater tolerance levels of seeing cars they weren't interested in in order to get to the ones they were interested in.

Unfortunately, I suspect that as long as meets are held in hotel-area venues, the parking issues can become more troublesome. As we found out in our first Plano meet, although the respective hotel operatives might "have control" of an adjacent parcel of land, they have NO say in what corporate operatives want to do with that land--period. The hotel having "ownership" of the particular area is important, but also takes many chain-properties out of the mix really quick. Not unlike local managers having no control over when rennovations to their properties are scheduled . . . after any lodging contracts might have been signed by the appropriate BCA operatives.

To me, the ideal show field would be a huge, contiguous parking lot. Many hotels don't have those, as many downtown convention centers might . . . as Flint '88, for example.

Also, to me, the BCA National Meet show should showcase the "family aspect" of the parent organization and those who are members of it. I really don't like the "segregation" word when applied to non-400 Point Judged Buicks! I can also certainly understand how that word could be applied, considering some unplanned issues at the 2013 meet ("the fence"). Not to forget the alleged lack of sufficient signage and maps of the show fields being available for meet spectators and participants in 2013.

That being said, I still feel that all 400 Point Judged cars should have a special place to signify their additional prestige in the event. Or perhaps a special place for the returning/recertified Senior and similar-status cars? To me, these need to be the "high status" vehicles and should have some special place to recognize their significance.

Past that, there would be the regular 400 Point Show Field, as the "next tier down". Next would be what I'd term "Survivor" cars and "Archival" to demonstrate what good, unrestored Buicks are . . . to show their great durability and also to serve as "reference standards" for restored vehicles. The next transition would be the Driven Class, which can have "some changes" to make them more enjoyable through various upgrades to the base vehicle. This would then transition into the Modified Division area. Other speciality-type Buicks could be adjacent, in their own groups (Reattas, race, etc.).

Yes, such a show field would consume quite a bit of real estate! It would also allow the spectator to stroll through the whole gamut of Buick and Buick owners' orientations toward their cars. It could also allow spectators to gravitate toward Buicks of their liking, without having to "wade through" many they weren't that interested in. Certainly, we don't want the spectators to become bored and leave early, not having found cars they like to look at! The other key component of such a show field would be an accurate map of what's where! Such a show field could also make any judging operations more efficient, I suspect, such that judges would not have to walk the entire field to find cars in the class(es) they are judging. This might raise the question . . . "Are we more interested in serving the alleged interests of spectators rather than easing the steps walked by the show judges?" Certainly, in any "mixed-field" judged show situation, the information card on the cars should denote which judging criteria they are registered for . . . possibly using different colors for each group -- NO margin for error in this situation, either. More items for the circus ringmasters to ensure are orchestrated correctly?

When we did the Plano meets, some of these same discussions were had, but the answer from the BCA operatives was "No" each time -- the 400 Point Judging must be separate from other groups of non-400 Point Judged cars. Personally, I like "segmented" show fields, NOT "segregated" show fields -- there is a difference.

I know there are many different ways to approach the various show field(s) orientations at national-level car shows. The "transitional show field" I outlined above would, to me, be ideal from sevaral viewpoints . . . spectators, judging operations, marketing aspects . . . while also placing "prestige of attainment" vehicles where they can be better noticed by all.

In any show field, there can be many dynamics at play. For example, might a "strict originality" owner desire to be parked next to a Modified or Driven Class vehicle? Might a Driven Class owner, who might be a little skittish about putting their car in a show to start with, feel comfortable being next to a 400 Point Judged car? Or the freshly-restored 400 Point car being next to an Archival Class car with all items which are correct, but might not have been exactly and correctly restored . . . away from the un-molested original car, things would look fine, but next to a correct car, difference would be very obvious.

And then, you have to consider the reactions/comments of the spectators, who don't really know what they're looking at, all of the time. They could easily talk about how much more correct that Driven Class car might be (shiney paint where GM never put it, for example) than the correctly-restored car sitting next to it. For some, these things can grate on their nerves to no end . . . knowing they did it "right" and "others" don't recognize that as they have an incorrect orientation of what "right" really is.

End result is that there's a LOT more at play here than just seeing, for example, all of the '55 Buicks in ONE row on the show field. MANY considerations that might not be completely evident on the surface, but which can also greatly impact the participants and whether THEY want to participate in the future! This brings up the orientation that we have to market these events NOT just to spectators and potential new members, but ALSO to current and future show participants . . . that "Intention to Return" thing.

I know there have been many who have advocated for the "mixed-field" show, for quite some time. Now, all of the various aspects can be viewed up close and personal. I might suggest that all participants (and secondarily, the judging staff) be surveyed "after the fact" for their feelings of how things went, how they liked it, and if they want it to continue into the future . . . or should the segmented-field be reinstated? As with all surveys, how the surveys are worded and configured can possibly affect the answers received!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

"NTX5467" rather than my name? I have several various involvements in the car hobby and the North Texas Chapter, BCA. When I use "NTX5467", that means that my comments are MY OWN and they can't be transferred or construed to be related to "speaking for" my other involvements, as some might want to do. It also means that I don't need to put a disclaimer on my comments, as "I make these comments as a free-standing member of the BCA", which I've done in other posts in here. I hope that might explain that situation.

Mr. Wiegand, it appears that as you progress into your post, you tend to agree with me about "one place for all cars", which is what my post certainly mentioned and advocated for. My "transitional show field" would allow ALL cars to be in one place, at one time, for all to see and enjoy. It would also tend to streamline all judging activities, which can be a VERY big thing to those doing the physical judging of the vehicles. In the present 400 Point Judging scheme, cars ARE divided as to model year, as it's been for many years.

From my observations of being in and around many car shows over the years, there certainly ARE some people who feel their car is better than another car in the show, in their class. At one ISCA show in Wichita Falls, TX (about 20 years ago), I saw one owner request his classification be changed 4 times, as he saw which cars came in later and which ones his car would not show well against. After another show, one owner complained that he'd spent $5000 on his truck and didn't get a trophy, as if spending money would guarantee him getting a trophy of some kind (which it didn't, due to "the competition").

At a regional meet we hosted three years ago, there was a great car which came to the event. If you walked up to it, you'd be impressed with the NOS radiator hoses (including the paper tags on them!) and how well the car was done, then walk off to enjoy the other cars. Only thing was that it had serious issues with the correctness of the interior fabrics. That's the type of thing which would become extremely obvious when a restored (nicely-done, but incorrect) car is parked next to an Archival car. Which also brings up the issue of just which rules you restore/build a car to . . . what looks good with available resources, which can play well in general shows and weekend cruises, or what's supposed to be there from the factory (as a BCA-level show would require for authenticity).

Yes, the things I've mentioned, as to "dynamics of the situation", I've seen at car shows I've attended or have been involved in, over the years. Perhaps your observations have been different, which I respect.

The reason I might suggest the Senior and similar cars who are recertifying that status be placed in a different location, apart from the normal show field. These ARE and shold be "special cars", in many respects. Especially if they've been recertified a few times AND have seen "the streets" some. That doesn't necessarily make them "better", just that they've attained a high standard and have maintained it, which can be a huge accomplishment in itself. It also might make it easier to explain, to the spectators, what all of those grille badges mean and why some have them and others don't. I make this as a suggestion, no more, no less.

The reason I like "one big show field" is that it lends more of "a family" aspect to things. Of the cars and of the owners. Yes, there will be various groupings of cars within the one big group, that class thing, for judging purposes. But everybody will still be physically together in one place at one time, as it was in the Flint meet I mentioned. Yes, there were a few segments of vehicle types along the perimeter of the large parking lot, but it was obvious they were a part of the event, rather than otherwise.

Personally, I don't feel that ANY kind or type of Buick produced/powered vehicle of ANY model year should be excluded from any BCA National Meet, so long as the owner/displayer meets the BCA's criteria for being in the show (i.e., BCA membership or otherwise). But that's just me.

I believe that if my description of my "Transitional Show Field" is re-read, how that concept can work will become apparent. All cars in one place at one time, transitioning from the "high-level judged show cars", to the other divisions of the BCA, and back to the start. On ONE parking lot. Unfortunately, not all hotel-type venues can accomodate such a show field, as we've seen in many past BCA National Meets . . . yet it seems that BCA-ers desire to have their national meets at a host hotel venue with the show field at the same physical location. Be that as it may.

Now, for that disclaimer . . . I make these comments, and those in the original post, as a free-standing member of the BCA -- no more, no less.

Regards,

NTX5467

Willis Bell 20811

Edited January 19, 2014 by MrEarl (see edit history)

[Guest my3buicks]

If they are going to be in class as display only then why spend money to give them recognition for having driven to the show, if that's the case then I want a plaque also for my point judged car because I drove it to the show as well, where does it end, really. If a plaque, award, recognition is that important then do the work And put it in the judged class.

[Guest BJM]

Why do the people wanting to be included in the parking area with the 400 point cars want to be in that same area? Bill?

I remember specifically Rochester MN. What a nice setting. The drivens were seperated but their area was under trees and well presented.

Again this is NOT about the differences between the factions here but about the factions getting together in a common area and hearing each other out. And this may not be able to happen until the National meet, unless someone on the BOD shows some leadership and gets a teleconference go to meeting in place.

Forums are limited in their ability to solve these issues and place comments into context with emotion.

[Guest my3buicks]

I think everyone agrees we never want to see a situation like last year - so we all have that in common.

[Bill - 29 Buick]

Mr. Oldfield:

I certainly hope you don't think Mark Shaw "got his way". Until ALL cars are parked together, by era at Buick Nationals, Mark and a number of others will keep pushing for what the Membership wants.

Bill McLaughlin

BCA 7160

Member of the All-Together-Parking By Era Movement

[BUKE]

For my two cent's. I definitely agree with Mark and Brian. I love to drive my buick and to show it at our nationals. In my opinion I to pay the same amount of dues as everybody and should be treated as such. Last year may have been a mistake(closed fence) but other years I have felt left out . As for drivers who drive their buicks thay have to endure quite a good deal of trouble to get to the meet no matter how far. (flat tires,heet brakdowns, inlaws,and the future buick's drivers. that being said I do not feel bad about being forced to park next to a trailer queen.My full support is in putting all buick's on the field side by side.I am also proud to say I do volunteer at the meets and enjoy it.

have a great BUICK day

Frank (Buke)

[TxBuicks]

Alan,

I read your post about the decision to park the Driven class and Display cars among the 400 point cars for 2014. I will make the changes to the windshield cards so that the Drivers class cars know what class to park in, and you will know how many spaces to allow for each class.

Edited January 22, 2014 by TxBuicks (see edit history)

[old-tank]

I do not feel bad about being forced to park next to a trailer queen.

Frank (Buke)

[Bill - 29 Buick]

BJM:

The greatest number of cars (especially in the Pre-War segment) are usually in the 400 pt. class. Therefore, if you're in a Class with only 1 or 2 others of your vintage (in my case Archival - with a 1929), you want to be with your friends and like cars. Each year, registering in Archival, I'd find myself parked in Class 'U' out past the Reattas - with nobody to talk to. I'm sure there are other reasons but that's mine.

I'd also like to comment on the Parking option of the "perfect show field being 400 Point - Archival - Driven - Modified - Display." Personally, I'd rather see two 400 pt. 29's next to / near an Archival 29, next to / near a driven 29, etc. rather that two 400 pt. 29's mixed in with all other 400 pt 1914-1935.s and then way down the row an Archival 29, etc. (recognizing that parking on the show field is not guaranteed). My opinion….

Bill McLaughlin

BCA 7160

1929 Mclaughlin Buick (Archival)

Why do the people wanting to be included in the parking area with the 400 point cars want to be in that same area? Bill?

I remember specifically Rochester MN. What a nice setting. The drivens were seperated but their area was under trees and well presented.

Again this is NOT about the differences between the factions here but about the factions getting together in a common area and hearing each other out. And this may not be able to happen until the National meet, unless someone on the BOD shows some leadership and gets a teleconference go to meeting in place.

Forums are limited in their ability to solve these issues and place comments into context with emotion.

[Pomeroy41144]

At South Bend 2013 the Driven Class was so far away from the main event that it did not feel like we were part of the show. Some people were really put out by this and complained loudly, and the fact that an iron fence prohibited free movement from driven to show areas really drove home the isolation. After our Drivens were judged and signed off on we were allowed to park our car on the main field, which made many of us very happy. Modified Buicks, were even farther away. Since I am not in favor of modifieds I didn't shed any tears for them, but I would bet that they felt as isolated as the Driven Class folks did. My first Buick National. I was happy to be there.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[Guest BJM]

Thanks Bill, and Pomeroy41144.

Perhaps the national meet site for 2013 was simply not the best for accommodating all the classes. To my knowledge, nobody has provided that "bird's eye view" of the Portland site we saw last year, which helped clarify parking for last year's meet.

Whomever runs for the BOD this year should let the membership know where they stand on the issue of all inclusive parking. Not that their mind can't change, but that's a specific issue rather then a vague platitude, and the membership outside a certain state can decide if they want to elect for purpose rather then popularity and inclusion.

Just a thought.

[JohnD1956]

One reason I belong to the BCA is because I have intense fondness of the Marquee, and everything that is in it. Last year I originally registered for the Driven class. But when I discovered it would be too far away for my wife to get to the car on show day, I switched to Archival. Then I joined the judging process for the 400 pt mid 50's cars and show day I was no where near my own car. I think I spent maybe an hour or two around my own car and talking to those around it. I learned a bit about others and other Buicks. It was fun. But I never got around the rest of the show field for the 400 points, driven, or display. I missed so much. If it was alltogether parking I think I would have been able to see much more of the cars in attendance.

I remember hearing similar comments at Danvers, when the Drivens were parked on top of the mountain. I never got up there that day. In Charlotte I only got to see the driven class after the Judging process. The show was shut down early because of the heat and I never got to see any of the other cars. In Batavia, with the first driven class, I know of two people in the class who said they never got out of their field and saw any of the 400 pt cars.

Clearly there has to be a better way. Thankfully there are the evening tailgate "shows" in the parking lots, which are a great experience BTW, and which makes it more important than ever to get to the meet on the first day.

[dmfconsult]

I thought I may weigh in being a relatively new member who has been to exactly ONE national meet in the past. I brought my Electra to Seattle in 2007 and entered it in the Driven class, mostly because I didn't want to go through the 400 point judging, but I can tell you I did spend hours detailing the car before the show and after I arrived in Seattle. I would not have appreciated being parked away from the show field or in a spot where "a family wagon" with kids and dogs getting in and out would have parked. In Seattle, I didn't think twice of the layout. I was in the adjoining hotel parking with other cars participating in the show, not in the main hotel parking but I could easily wander the rest of the show field, which is the real reason why I went. I see my own car as often as I want, it's everyone else's car I want to see.

I plan on bringing both my Buick's to Portland and entering one in Archival and was planning on entering the other one in Driven again, although that may change depending on how the cars are organized. As a member, there are really two things I want in a car show, and that is to be able to look at the other cars in attendance and talk to other owners with easy access from my own car, and to ensure my car is in a safe location. The last part means I want to get back to it quickly if I need to. In Seattle, that worked great, hopefully it does in Portland as well.

I don't care if my cars are judged, at this point it's more interesting to me to see how they do. However, if I were to enter them in Driven or Display only and then found out I would be in some obscure out of the way corner of a hotel parking lot that was not obviously a part of the show field, I would not bother bringing the cars to show at all.

A pic of my car in Seattle. I had cars in Driven class around, the 400 point judging and Display only. Although I'm sure somewhat difficult for the judges, no one around me was complaining about where their car was.

[ted sweet]

it will still be a problem as long as part of the showfield is isolated from the main field

[Guest my3buicks]

So why have a driven class????? Oh yeah, that's right, to get patted on the back for driving your car to a show that you chose to attend - I remember when the driven class was first set up it was a huge stink/problem - tons of time wasted on it at BOD meetings, etc. Now if the DC wants parked with the 400 point cars, then what's the point in having a "Driven Class" - stick DO NOT JUDGE on the car and enjoy the show. I guess the grass wasn't as green on the other side of the fence as originally thought. Really, the BCA is like a dog chasing it's own tail sometimes.