Can I still afford this hobby?

[FUHRMAN71]

I'm working on a $2000 project car thankfully with lots of free help from friends and club members, plus so far I've found some real deals on parts and a few other things.

My sticker shock at what things like paint and plating, and labor hours for things my volunteer band and I can't do is pretty frustrating.

I've been 'in the game' officially since 1986 and have had the good fortune of owning several nice cars. (I sold most everything due to a major move with my company.) Starting over has been fun but still a challenge. Maybe I should have stayed on the outside looking in. Any encouraging words out there??

[r1lark]

In my opinion, the high cost of a 'total restoration' has led to the wider acceptance of 'drivers', 'survivors', and cars with 'patina'.

Get it mechanically reliable and safe...........and drive it! Plating can wait. If you do the trim removal and prep, a decent (not talking show here) paint job can be done at one of the chain paint places for not too much money. One of mine has a Maaco paint job, and it looks really good at 20 feet.

Just my opinion and my 2 cents worth.

Edited November 23, 2011 by r1lark (see edit history)

[Mark Huston]

I have experienced similar issues – can’t afford a perfect car, and cannot afford to do a full restoration. Instead of focusing on what you cannot do, look at what you can do. Buy the nicest car you can afford and then live with the imperfections you cannot afford to change. As time and money allows upgrade those items that are within your budget. In the mean time, enjoy the car, and the hobby, drive it as much as you can.

[J3Studio]

I have experienced similar issues – can’t afford a perfect car, and cannot afford to do a full restoration. Instead of focusing on what you cannot do, look at what you can do. Buy the nicest car you can afford and then live with the imperfections you cannot afford to change. As time and money allows upgrade those items that are within your budget. In the mean time, enjoy the car, and the hobby, drive it as much as you can.

Absolutely!

There is always someone with (far) more funds. That doesn't mean that you can't have far more fun.

[Guest steve283]

If you look you will see I just got a fixer upper.I have no plans to show this car so i will make it as nice as I can and drive it.After reading the post from most of the people on here I get the impression that these cars take years to sort out.Dont be in a hurry.It will work itself out.A lot of info is right here,read as many post as you can,get parts and just enjoy the trip.and let me know how you solve your problems and i'll post how i solve mine with all these people posting how they solve their problems we learn.

[knobless]

I'm working on a $2000 project car thankfully with lots of free help from friends and club members, plus so far I've found some real deals on parts and a few other things.

My sticker shock at what things like paint and plating, and labor hours for things my volunteer band and I can't do is pretty frustrating.

I've been 'in the game' officially since 1986 and have had the good fortune of owning several nice cars. (I sold most everything due to a major move with my company.) Starting over has been fun but still a challenge. Maybe I should have stayed on the outside looking in. Any encouraging words out there??

if you are like most of us you enjoy it and to get it to a point of running and driving ,keeps you interested in bringing back a working piece of history....as in any hobby relaxing and enjoyable, self satisfying (sas)

[JV Puleo]

I've had the identical thought. I owned a number of cars in the 70s - all brass cars or classics, none restored but all drivable as they were. Despite not having a substantial income I was able to own some very nice things. Now I'm back after a hiatus of 30 years and finding it a challenge to make progress with my current project without spending money like a drunken sailor. That said, I'm sure it can be done. As one of my friends commented when I was compelled to dispose of much of my collection "They can't take the knowledge." I endorse the comments above... if I was doing a 20s or 30s car I'd just skip as much of the cosmetic stuff as I could. In the end, if you work all the bugs out of the car you can enjoy it and there will be time for that later.

[1937hd45]

What is your goal with the car, that's the first question you have to ask yourself. Having the project is just as much fun as having a finished driver. Nobody ever said having a finished car was required. Registration an insurance for 10 hours of yearly driving can be better spent on parts and supplies in some cases.

[Terry Bond]

Do as much as you can Andy, but stick with it. It took Susan and I 14 years to restore a MG. Got some help from club members just like you are doing. About the only thing we paid some bigger bucks for was the paint job - just wanted a driver but did it as nice as we could and ended up with a Senior. We drive the heck out of it and it's harder to keep clean but still presentable. Had it at Hershey this year and it was a joy to drive through the crowd onto the show field. Doing the same right now with another one, and the 67 GTO patiently awaits its turn for some body work and paint. No serious bucks involved here, but we're having lots of fun. Main thing is to never worry about what it's worth. I'm convinced they are all going to cost far more than they are worth. What price fun?

Terry

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I'm working on a $2000 project car thankfully with lots of free help from friends and club members, plus so far I've found some real deals on parts and a few other things.

My sticker shock at what things like paint and plating, and labor hours for things my volunteer band and I can't do is pretty frustrating.

I've been 'in the game' officially since 1986 and have had the good fortune of owning several nice cars. (I sold most everything due to a major move with my company.) Starting over has been fun but still a challenge. Maybe I should have stayed on the outside looking in. Any encouraging words out there??

Hard to make a good comment without knowing what kind of car you have. Some are obviously more expensive to get everything fresh chrome than others. Paint is another issue. If you stay away from single stage urethane and base coat / clear coat and use good old acrylic enamel or acrylic lacquer your actual paint cost will be considerably less; and if a pre 1980 or so car the paint will look more period correct.

A bit more about plating: Small parts can often be re-plated or re-anodized by companies that cater to the electronics industry. You may find them less expensive than the guys that do bumpers.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Do as much as you can Andy, but stick with it. It took Susan and I 14 years to restore a MG. Got some help from club members just like you are doing. About the only thing we paid some bigger bucks for was the paint job - just wanted a driver but did it as nice as we could and ended up with a Senior. We drive the heck out of it and it's harder to keep clean but still presentable. Had it at Hershey this year and it was a joy to drive through the crowd onto the show field. Doing the same right now with another one, and the 67 GTO patiently awaits its turn for some body work and paint. No serious bucks involved here, but we're having lots of fun. Main thing is to never worry about what it's worth. I'm convinced they are all going to cost far more than they are worth. What price fun?

Terry

This is off subject but while I have you on the line, Terry, I was wondering if you're hosting the marines again this year for thanksgiving and I applaud you if you are.

[DAVE A]

As Jim Edwards said, it is hard to say without knowing what kind of car you have in mind. I have enjoyed the hobby for 15 years now by devoting my efforts to a more affordable brand than most. As such, for less money than some have spent for their paint jobs, I have restored a number of cars, some that I have shown and won awards at the concours level and in AACA. If you gear your car to your wallet, you can still experience success. I will speak for Crosleys since that is what I know. For 5-7,000 TOTAL, (which includes initial purchase price) you can still find and restore an award winning Crosley auto. Obviously that takes a lot of work, but they are simple to work on and parts are readily available. My DPC Hotshot, which has won National Crosley awards, a number of Concours awards, and countless local shows, has 2 years work and less than 7,000 invested. My Farm O Road, which has won its AACA first Junior and a couple of concours classes has even less invested. In both cases, a large portion is in the paint job, and if I can continue to learn more about that, I will invest even less in the 48 panel delivery I am working on now!!. You can do it too and if you are interested, feel free to contact me.

[Guest billybird]

I have a car right now that I call a "rolling restoration". When something jumps out at me as an "eyesore" on the car I fix it on a pay as you go method. I may buy a good piece of chrome one month, a couple of nice window handles the next month,etc. I must confess, the car had a very good pait job on it when I bought it, but thats about all. After eight years, it's almost ready for a First Jr. Some things don't cost much money such as cleaning and painting the underside, it's just work. I always remember something my daddy told me years ago before he died. He said "son there ain't never been a tree so big that if you keep chopping at it sooner or later it'll fall" I've accomplished many things in increments over the years by heeding his words. Hang in there my friend, don't give up, one day you'll be glad you pressed on.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I know that everyone's economic circumstance is different, but there are truths that cannot be avoided when getting into a project car.

The first is regardless of how enamored you may be with what you have acquired you will find surprises that may make it an impractical project for you. That is the time to sell the sucker and wait for a better one of the same year and make.

The second truth is the longer a project takes to complete the more it is going to cost to complete it. It is always in one's best financial interest to attack the project aggressively even if you have to borrow to get it done.

Third truth, if you believe you can do it all yourself you are in for a rocky road unless you have a shop equipped with literally thousands of dollars in tools and equipment. Even then you will likely find it necessary to acquire more tools with some vehicles.

Fourth truth, makes no difference how knowledgeable you may be or how many tools you may have there will always be aspects of your project that will require you to outsource some things. That will obviously vary with the nature of the project and individual skills.

I have a rule of thumb I try to go by: If I can't see a path to having a car in the condition I desire it to be in within a year or less, it's time to pass it up and find something better. Owning a garage queen on the way to becoming a parts car for someone else is not rewarding.

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

Its a project, a hobby, it wouldn't be either if you raced to finish it in a month. Enjoy the car, work on it when you have time, when you have the money, and when you have the parts. Drive the car ( if you can) and that will help motivate you to work on it & enjoy it..

[MCHinson]

When I got started in this hobby, I was a young police officer with one young child. My first car was a Model A Ford. I started with a Model A Ford because I realized it was going to be more affordable than what I really wanted. I can't seem to get over the Model A Ford bug, as I still seem to always have a need to own at least one Model A Ford. I found that borrowing money from my credit union enabled me to buy antique cars that were drivable. Buying a project and trying to finish it on a cash basis would have cost me more time and money in the long run. I am now a retired Police Lieutenant, and I still have found that my friendly local credit union enables me to buy cars easily.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Its a project, a hobby, it wouldn't be either if you raced to finish it in a month. Enjoy the car, work on it when you have time, when you have the money, and when you have the parts. Drive the car ( if you can) and that will help motivate you to work on it & enjoy it..

What starts out as a hobby can also become a frustrating second career if it lingers on and on. Working on a vehicle for some may make for good therapy so to speak. However, the working on a project car is only one aspect of this hobby. Some never turn a single nut on any car they may own, while others may get a thrill out of rebuilding an engine and seeing it come to life again. It's all different strokes for different folks, but I suspect there are more than one might think who have jumped in over their heads in one respect or another and became totally soured on the idea or wound up in divorce court.

I don't view this hobby as being one for the faint of heart.

[budd28]

I'm one once the car is restored I really don't want it any more you know the old saying getting there is half the fun secondly you have to enjoy the car and the hobby when this great club started in 1935 they didn't care about trophies they just got in their cars drove them and showed them off to other people

[Dwight Romberger]

I am going to downsize from a "collection" to one car. Not a happy thing to do, but the economy has made the decision for me. Since the 2008 recession, income from stocks and bonds has not been as I planned.

[earl e rizer]

What brand of car is it? Studebaker as in your avatar? If so there is a good supply of original parts available for reasonable prices. I can put you in touch with a person here in Canada that could probably help you.

[Rusty_OToole]

I used to know a guy who participated in the old car hobby on less money than anyone I ever saw.

He was crippled by tuberculosis of the spine as a child and lived on a small disability pension.

From time to time I would see him at old car events with his car, a late 40s Buick sedan. He bought it a long time ago when it was nothing but an aged used car. But it was always clean, polished and ran nice.

It was his only car. In winter and bad weather he used his bus pass.

He had a library of old car books and magazines, bought in second hand stores. He also read all the old car books in the public library.

A very knowlegible guy on the history of any car you could name. Due to his health problems he could not work on his car, some of us would help him from time to time.

I think of him when I hear someone say "the hobby is too expensive for the little guy". Well maybe it is but he wasn't a little guy. He was as big as you are, whoever you are.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

What starts out as a hobby can also become a frustrating second career if it lingers on and on. Working on a vehicle for some may make for good therapy so to speak. However, the working on a project car is only one aspect of this hobby. Some never turn a single nut on any car they may own, while others may get a thrill out of rebuilding an engine and seeing it come to life again. It's all different strokes for different folks, but I suspect there are more than one might think who have jumped in over their heads in one respect or another and became totally soured on the idea or wound up in divorce court.

I don't view this hobby as being one for the faint of heart.

I agree, I was just saying no pressure, take your time, move at your own speed, working it the best way for them... Unless of course they decide to sell it.. Everyones situation is different..

Edited November 25, 2011 by Kingoftheroad (see edit history)

[keiser31]

That's why they (whoever THEY are) call it a hobby. You get a little money, you spend a little on your "hobby". That's the way most hobbies are. That is how we can afford them.

[Bob40]

When I started in the hobby most guys were like me.Had a driver that needed work but we drove them everywhere and they were rolling platforms with all the new work out for display.

As the years have passed it seems now that many vehicles dont see the light of day until they are finished, I think in these times we are seeing a resurgence of enjoyment of driving a vehicle while it still is a work in progress.The main point is to be out there driving it.Paint has long been a major siphon of cash but plating can be accomplished by getting a second set of items and doing them one at a time as cash flow dictates.

[Dandy Dave]

The main Question, "Can I still afford this hobbie???"

The answer, If your wallet is fat enough!

Ever watch the movie, The Money Pit. Old cars resemble that tale of a fixer upper. Dandy Dave!

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

When I started in the hobby most guys were like me.Had a driver that needed work but we drove them everywhere and they were rolling platforms with all the new work out for display.

As the years have passed it seems now that many vehicles dont see the light of day until they are finished, I think in these times we are seeing a resurgence of enjoyment of driving a vehicle while it still is a work in progress.The main point is to be out there driving it.Paint has long been a major siphon of cash but plating can be accomplished by getting a second set of items and doing them one at a time as cash flow dictates.

Yup, that is indeed the way a segment of the hobby was and still is. I think it depends largely on where you may be geographically and the specific area of interest one may choose. If you live in the Sunbelt states and particularly in the South and far West driving your work in progress may be more common than elsewhere. Of course the hardcore restoration "purist" is probably never going to drive a work in progress or fully restored car anywhere anytime; anymore than they are likely to have personally turned a single nut on a single bolt of their trailer queen. Of course those folks are not hobbyists, they are show piece owners. There is a difference!

I would also think that the prices of drivable or easily made drivable vehicles has also had a major influence on the driving of a work in progress. Let's face it forty years ago one could find a car now considered a much desired collectable for a song and you could probably drive it. Today we see cars from that same era that you wouldn't even think of attempting to drive anywhere going for often insane prices and they become the cars described as "never seeing the light of day until finished" or as I described eventually the parts car for another's project.

I recall back in the 1950s when car enthusiasts gathered on a somewhat informal basis (there really weren't that many local clubs then anywhere) someone might actually show up at the drive-in burger joint with their 1930's or 1940's something with no seats and sitting on a wooden crate or a lawn chair. Ain't going to happen today! Pointing to the fact safety awareness and laws have had a great influence on just how much of a big a pile of running, rolling "junk" you may actually put on the road today as a work in progress. Yes, many of the cars we took to those gatherings were really nothing more than a running, rolling pile of junk, but to us they were our work in progress.

Today I personally find more satisfaction in getting a car finished and then putting it on the road to enjoy the craning of necks and the "what is it" questions at the gas pump or charity car show than having a never ending work in progress. Actually I get a lot of satisfaction out of locating and staging all the parts, etc.; necessary to just get a car done as soon as humanly possible. Obviously I don't give a flip about judging beyond that by those that go to a car show to see rolling vintage automobile history.

[Guest rsd9699]

My 2 cents worth.

Check the local prices of a really nice original or one claiming to be restored car like your project

Add about 40% and a couple of years worth of time.

You now have an estimated budget as to how much you will spend when you you have it completed to your satisfaction.

Is it worth the money and time - yes!

Is it simple - no.

If it were a cake walk - then there would not be any old cars on the roads.

If your doing the restoration to break even or turn a nickle profit - then you would be better off spending money on a car that has value when restored like some convertible rather than a car where there were millions made just like it like a 4 door sedan.

In either case - it is your money and your time - Just go for it!

Ron

[FUHRMAN71]

Thank you guys - I'm feeling much better now, a little encouragement makes that old wreck look better and better. To answer the big question - it's a 1940 Nash Lafayette model 4010.

[Guest Caribou]

Yup, that is indeed the way a segment of the hobby was and still is. I think it depends largely on where you may be geographically and the specific area of interest one may choose. If you live in the Sunbelt states and particularly in the South and far West driving your work in progress may be more common than elsewhere. Of course the hardcore restoration "purist" is probably never going to drive a work in progress or fully restored car anywhere anytime; anymore than they are likely to have personally turned a single nut on a single bolt of their trailer queen. Of course those folks are not hobbyists, they are show piece owners. There is a difference!

I would also think that the prices of drivable or easily made drivable vehicles has also had a major influence on the driving of a work in progress. Let's face it forty years ago one could find a car now considered a much desired collectable for a song and you could probably drive it. Today we see cars from that same era that you wouldn't even think of attempting to drive anywhere going for often insane prices and they become the cars described as "never seeing the light of day until finished" or as I described eventually the parts car for another's project.

I recall back in the 1950s when car enthusiasts gathered on a somewhat informal basis (there really weren't that many local clubs then anywhere) someone might actually show up at the drive-in burger joint with their 1930's or 1940's something with no seats and sitting on a wooden crate or a lawn chair. Ain't going to happen today! Pointing to the fact safety awareness and laws have had a great influence on just how much of a big a pile of running, rolling "junk" you may actually put on the road today as a work in progress. Yes, many of the cars we took to those gatherings were really nothing more than a running, rolling pile of junk, but to us they were our work in progress.

Today I personally find more satisfaction in getting a car finished and then putting it on the road to enjoy the craning of necks and the "what is it" questions at the gas pump or charity car show than having a never ending work in progress. Actually I get a lot of satisfaction out of locating and staging all the parts, etc.; necessary to just get a car done as soon as humanly possible. Obviously I don't give a flip about judging beyond that by those that go to a car show to see rolling vintage automobile history.

Well if it makes you feel any better I'm under thirty and starting my first car. It looks like I'll be driving it during the summer months, rust and tatters and all. I just need to do enough work to get insurance on the thing. That'll hit my bank hard enough.

I want a perfect car, sure, but I don't want to wait until I'm retired to drive it. Money and time are issues, and this is going to have to be fun.

[Matt Harwood]

For many years, I was a perfectionist, and would actually lay awake nights worrying about how to make/keep my cars perfect. I'm doing a frame-off restoration on my 1941 Buick, which WILL be as perfect as I can make it, but that project isn't about money or trying to save money on a restoration. Doing it myself, it's about the journey and I want to see if I can restore a car to show levels myself. Of course, I farmed out the engine build, and will probably have someone else spray the paint and do the interior, all of which are expensive, but I'm fixing the rust, rebuilding all the other mechanicals, and doing as much as possible myself. Even so, I'll probably be upside-down by a factor of 2 or 3 by the time I'm finished, but that isn't the point.

However, I recently purchased my 1929 Cadillac, which is an older restoration that's still in good condition. It needed a transmission rebuild and a few other things before it was ready to tour, but now it's reliable and wonderful to drive. However, it's far from perfect, and I've discovered that I just don't worry about it at all. It seems like every other time I drive it, it rains. So what? It already has some battle scars on the paint, so I'm not sweatting the little stuff. I have to admit that it makes the car a lot more fun to drive. I'll be fixing a few things along the way, and some are expensive, but I think of it as a vacation. What would I spend to entertain myself otherwise? How much on sporting events, other toys, etc. if I weren't a car guy?

Bottom line? As long as you remember that you're buying fun with your money and stop looking at it as an investment, you'll be fine. It's when you start worrying about getting your money back that the fun ends. Have fun, whatever shape it takes, that's the idea.

PS: Perfect cars are ZERO fun. Sure, they're nice to look at, but I think we'd all rather have one we can drive and enjoy as a car rather than as static art.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Great post Matt. However, I do believe some get so much money in their vintage car restoration they loose sight of the enjoyment of driving a restored vehicle and become paranoid about diminishing the value which may or does occur by putting it on the road. A bit of silly thinking I believe because just like a house not lived in, a car not used seems to deteriorate quite rapidly even though from what one can see it looks great.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

A.C. - glad you are feeling better about your project - certainly an interesting prewar car.

Getting back to Bob's (1937HD45) comments first figure out your goal, and work towards that. There are many many ways to enjoy this. If you really want a first rate car, that is fine also - it just takes longer to get there. It takes a lot of self discapline, but there are still some guys out there who pick the car they want and are willing to devote years to a restoration - in fact they plan on it. I have heard more than one knowledgeable collector indicate 5 - 10 years is about the right time frame for a full restoration. Maybe doing nothing more in the early years than acquiring parts and handling dissasembly. You spread the cost out this way, but again, it depends on what you want to end up with. There is also nothing wrong with refurbishing/servicing as necessary, and getting on the road, but you need to ask yourself where you ultimately what level you want to take the car to and work a plan from there. Weigh it against your budget which if limited, will also determine what it will allow you to do either quickly or over time. Sounds basic but there would not be such a huge amount of half finished projects if people really took the time to plan at the beginning.

I can appreciate the desire to get on the road, but if I ever restore another car (want to someday) it will be done without a timetable - and with a goal of a strong #2 upon completion.

Regardless of your overall plan, one thing that comes to mind with your car if it was me would be putting a few bucks aside to put towards the harder to source parts. That way, when the opportunity knocks you can buy what you need, as you may not have the luxury of multiple vendors, repro parts, etc. that some of us have with less unique cars.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

My brother made fun of me when he realized the money I spent on my '50. Until I asked how much his Bass boat cost and the pickup to tow it. And who goes around driving a pu, towing a boat just for fun??. I have FUN driving my Buick.

Just have fun. And the journey is[was for me] fun!! Pictures??

Ben

[Guest steve283]

The car I am working on will take a year at least.and its going to be an acceptable driver.It will be as stock as is possible.In the 2 months I have on it already I have not spent a lot of money.1k to buy it,75 dollars to get it home a pint of primer and reducer 40 bucks,biggest shock was the oil filter at 80 bucks.another 70 in small items.I have spent almost that amount going out on weekends in two months,and I'm enjoying this much more.I see it getting better each day spent on it.the paint is no problem 400 for that.getting glass for it is an unknown so far.and it needs tires and wheels.and I can start driving it.and the rest will get a workover as i drive it.As long as its not your primary car time is just a thing to gauge the build.

[Guest ray17025]

My answer.., No, I can't afford it. I have my Grandfather's first car, a 1928 526 Packard sedan (99% complete), or more realistically a Packard puzzle, as my father calls it. A true "barn find" when I got it, it hasn't been started since 1948. Although very well stored until the early 1980s, the Reagan years were not kind, (destroyed wood, but only surface rust). I have a picture of him at age 11, (when the family bought the car) hanging in the garage where he monitors my progress. I have a dual unrealistic goal of getting a Junior award on my first restoration, and finishing in 5 years so my son can take his drivers test in this family car.

So, NO, I can't afford it, but it is not about the money for me. There is not a penny of protential profit for me, I would likely sell my kidney, before this car. Not to mention, I will be likely 2-3 times upsidown before I am done. If my kids even consider selling after I am gone, I intend to do some serious hauting!

Edited January 4, 2012 by ray17025 (see edit history)

[Guest bofusmosby]

Avery interesting red, and I can relate all to well. I've been in the hobby for almost 2 years, and when I went looking for my first (and only) car, I looked for something that had a lot of the major work already done. I bought my 37 Pontiac 4-door sedan. I knew that this was not a valuable car, and no matter what I do to it, it'l never be as valuable as many others. I bought mine to enjoy. Unfortunately, there have been some problems along the way, and because of this "depression", it has had to take a back seat to other things far more important ie mortgage and such. I plan on doing what I can when I can afford it. I figure the more work I do myself, the more I can get done with what little cash-flow I have. I really have no desire to enter it in any shows, but I am trying to keep it all as original as possible.

Can I afford this hobby? NO! BUT, I also can't afford the house I have either. Sure, I can afford the payments, but there is just so much work that needs to be done. I guess the same goes for my car. I'll just keep doing what I can when I can, and not loose sleep over what it still needs. My car is a driver, and that is what I wanted it for.

[Guest Reattaneer]

Can I afford this life?

That is what alot of us are asking ourselves lately.

It is alot different world than 1986, 1996 or even 2006 for that matter.

Good luck to us all!

[Guest rsd9699]

I cam remember when a "restored" car had a new engine, paint and tires. Now it is showroom condition and better.

I will see you come Halloween.....

I will watching for the best '28 Packard this country has ever seen.

I took my driver's test in a 10 year old '54 Chevy with power steering to pass the parallel parking needed back then.

Ron

[Guest ken bogren]

This is a hobby?

Thank goodness! I was thinking it felt more like a life sentence!

[Guest steve283]

After reading the great stories found in this forum,I would say for many its become a Quest.