Pebble Beach 2024 thread ……

[1935Packard]

Best in Show award.

 

[1935Packard]

Some other favorites.

 

[1935Packard]

Lots of amazing Packards-- Dietrichs and LeBarons.

 

 

 

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

So many wonderful automobiles! A few in darkish gray color. 

[edinmass]

Well he’ll week is over. We did great. Basically most elegant open or closed is second overall. Quite an honor. The final four were a bit weird. Usually I can pick three of the four. The post war big boy stuff is a mystery to me. The weird wedge car was an absolute announcement that things will be changing in the future. I don’t approve as a traditionalist and dinosaur. The original car winning was a fun surprise. I don’t think it was on anyone’s radar. Having a handful of original cars myself I didn’t think any preservation car would be considered. The Packard LeBaron was an easy pick. As was the post war teal car. We are now 10 for 10 at Pebble with trophies…….and more than half the time we manage two. No complaints! I must have received 100 text messages from people here while watching live. Sorry I couldn’t answer all of them in real time. My 97 year old mother was watching with her crew at the nursing home. Felt good she could participate as she has spent the last 50 years in the hobby. Already looking forward to next year. Car is 85 percent done. It’s just as cool as this years car. I will post more photos tonight. There will be some duplicates. Thank you all for the positive thoughts.  Ed

Edited August 19 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Off to the Pierce Arrow Society meet directly from Pebble. Then Sunday we are off to Auburn with four cars for their big event. Yup, we are crazy and crazy busy. You can NEVER attend enough car shows or tours. I will probably continue this post for both meets. It’s all one long trip for me. 

[ericmac]

A big congratulations on an absolutely fabulous car and well deserved win. Most elegant closed car is an apt win for a Dietrich bodied Packard Twelve and this car, and you, sure appear to have earned the award. I look forward to seeing more photos of the cars and hearing your observations of the event. 

 

I was able to watch the live feed (spent most of Sunday obsessed with it, as many of us were, no doubt) and was impressed by the selections of cars. From my view, it was indeed a pleasant surprise to see the Bugatti win best of show honors. That win seems to solidify the importance of preservation, a view that AACA wisely has taken many years ago.  The reaction of the owner to the award and the obvious love he has for the car were refreshing. 

 

Thanks again Ed for for the posts and the insights. It is a real honor that you see your forum brethren as being important enough to give us a ringside seat. Personally, I greatly appreciate being able to come along for the ride. 

[West Peterson]

17 hours ago, A. Ballard 35R said:

Question for all you Packard 734 Speedster experts/admirers- have there ever been so many at one place (not counting the factory) before?  Looks like five on the show field and two up for auction. Would have loved to be there to see them first hand.

There were actually 3 up for auction. Two boattails and one phaeton. So, I suspect the answer to your question is, "no." There were five in the circle at the 1999 Packard Centennial Meet in Warren, Ohio. 

[Tph479]

Here is a pic of the POS Bugatti leaving on the Thursday tour. I was recently reading an article about if a preservation car could win.  Well I guess the time has come. This car did jump out to me as a contender. I did not realize its historical significance until I looked it up online last night.

[Tph479]

[Tph479]

[58L-Y8]

Congratulations to Ed and Mr. Lehmann both for their class wins and giving the '34 Packard Dietrich Sport Sedan its dignity back by returning to its original elegant color presentation.  Less is more!

[Tph479]

[A. Ballard 35R]

1 hour ago, West Peterson said:

There were actually 3 up for auction. Two boattails and one phaeton. So, I suspect the answer to your question is, "no." There were five in the circle at the 1999 Packard Centennial Meet in Warren, Ohio. 

Congratulations West on the very successful sale of your family heirloom. I am quite sure there were mixed emotions to say the least.

Edited August 19 by A. Ballard 35R
spelling corection (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

It is interesting to see in life what happens when tradition is broken and something new transpires.  If the Vegas oddsmakers had to put a line on next year, best of show, I wonder what the odds are of it being a restored car, or for the second year in a row it being something from the preservation class?

 

certainly the choice this year has everybody’s attention. 
 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

4 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

It is interesting to see in life what happens when tradition is broken and something new transpires.  If the Vegas oddsmakers had to put a line on next year, best of show, I wonder what the odds are of it being a restored car, or for the second year in a row it being something from the preservation class?

 

certainly the choice this year has everybody’s attention.

 

I doubt they'll choose an unrestored car two years in a row. They're in contention now, yes, but I'm sure there's an informal (and probably unspoken) consensus among the judges and organizers that the same "type" of car can't win two years in a row. The fact that the judges were encouraged to expand their definition of "elegance" to include cars like the Stratos wedge signals that there are new, previously undecorated cars in contention. That will give them more choices and reduce the odds of similar cars winning BOS two years in a row. I suppose that's a good thing, but will it dilute the field or simply change things to include other worthy cars that have been overlooked in the past? I honestly don't know.

 

When I saw the final four I fully expected the wedge to win, which would have sent a signal loud and clear. But as a lover of original, untouched cars, the final choice made me happy (although I suppose it also sends a similar message). However, Melanie, my wife, while watching the Best-Of-Show award, said something like, "Looks like a whole bunch of unrestored cars are about to be 'discovered' in restoration shops all over the world."

 

I hope she's wrong but I don't have much confidence that she is.

 

Unrestored cars are dicey, and there are more than a few old restorations or cars that have been intentionally aged hanging around in preservation classes at all the major shows. People say that the cars at Pebble are carefully vetted, but we all know that it's also a pretty small fraternity of wealthy guys, and wealthy guys typically get what they want. Extraordinary cars show up at big events all the time, previously unknown cars that someone "pulled out of a shed in Istanbul" or something like that. I fear that the choice of an unrestored car will further muddy the waters around certain cars, and cars that aren't what they appear will be fed into the trophy factory at an ever increasing rate.

 

Or maybe nobody cares? They're just cars. We already assign too much importance to them as it is. What do some fudged/ignored/reimagined histories really matter in the grand scheme of things? Eventually the purity tests just get in the way.

[John Bloom]

7 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I doubt they'll choose an unrestored car two years in a row. They're in contention now, yes, but I'm sure there's an informal (and probably unspoken) consensus among the judges and organizers that the same "type" of car can't win two years in a row. The fact that the judges were encouraged to expand their definition of "elegance" to include cars like the Stratos wedge signals that there are new, previously undecorated cars in contention. That will give them more choices and reduce the odds of similar cars winning BOS two years in a row. I suppose that's a good thing, but will it dilute the field or simply change things to include other worthy cars that have been overlooked in the past? I honestly don't know.

 

When I saw the final four I fully expected the wedge to win, which would have sent a signal loud and clear. But as a lover of original, untouched cars, the final choice made me happy (although I suppose it also sends a similar message). However, Melanie, my wife, while watching the Best-Of-Show award, said something like, "Looks like a whole bunch of unrestored cars are about to be 'discovered' in restoration shops all over the world."

 

I hope she's wrong but I don't have much confidence that she is.

 

Unrestored cars are dicey, and there are more than a few old restorations or cars that have been intentionally aged hanging around in preservation classes at all the major shows. People say that the cars at Pebble are carefully vetted, but we all know that it's also a pretty small fraternity of wealthy guys, and wealthy guys typically get what they want. Extraordinary cars show up at big events all the time, previously unknown cars that someone "pulled out of a shed in Istanbul" or something like that. I fear that the choice of an unrestored car will further muddy the waters around certain cars, and cars that aren't what they appear will be fed into the trophy factory at an ever increasing rate.

 

Or maybe nobody cares? They're just cars. We already assign too much importance to them as it is. What do some fudged/ignored/reimagined histories really matter in the grand scheme of things? Eventually the purity tests just get in the way.

Matt, interesting perspective…… and we absolutely have inflated their importance more than we should (yes I am part of the problem).

 

I have to believe there are a few guys who have waited a few years to get their Silver Ghost, 540K, Duesenberg, etc….. into that very desirable restoration shop that has turned out proven winners, and about to start the process of writing checks that may hit 1,000,000 dollars…… who are thinking “maybe I hold off on that “

 

no worries for those high end shops, I’m sure they’ll stay very busy, but it would surprise me if a few top shelf cars about to start a restoration (because only concours quality cars will win…..) don’t have their owners calling the shop and saying “I want to hold off for a year and show it a bit more as it is. 
 

I can see some good things that could come from that. 

I will sleep really good tonight, knowing that I don’t have to wrestle with this very difficult problem some have. 😊 

[TAKerry]

Can someone elaborate on the black wedge thing? Looks like the inspiration for the Tesla truck.

[Walt G]

35 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Or maybe nobody cares? They're just cars. We already assign too much importance to them as it is. What do some fudged/ignored/reimagined histories really matter in the grand scheme of things? Eventually the purity tests just get in the way.

Well stated Matt. As with other forms of history that is non automotive - I will restate what I have previously and am sure will again as the cause/topic warrants it " Myth becomes fact if it is around long enough" Add to that - and if there is enough $ at hand to prove the myth factor is "real". None of this puts pressure, 'Blame' on the object that is being focused on , but the egos , stance in life, fame and glory of some individuals need to be massaged , there in lies the reason/problem.

[edinmass]

I will opine on Matt’s comments later this week when I have time. I agree with about 80 percent of it. It’s easy to analyze the past. Predicting the future is difficult at best. 

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, Tph479 said:

 

 

The Tesla Cybertruck concept!

 

Craig

[West Peterson]

1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

The Tesla Cybertruck concept!

 

Craig

 

I hung around it for a little while to see the "unveiling," hoping they'd take it out of the box. Apparently, no one had a box cutter, so there it sat. Someone said they saw a cyber truck pulling it at one time. Apparently, it looked like two dumpsters going down the road.

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, John Bloom said:

Matt, interesting perspective…… and we absolutely have inflated their importance more than we should (yes I am part of the problem).

 

I have to believe there are a few guys who have waited a few years to get their Silver Ghost, 540K, Duesenberg, etc….. into that very desirable restoration shop that has turned out proven winners, and about to start the process of writing checks that may hit 1,000,000 dollars…… who are thinking “maybe I hold off on that “

 

no worries for those high end shops, I’m sure they’ll stay very busy, but it would surprise me if a few top shelf cars about to start a restoration (because only concours quality cars will win…..) don’t have their owners calling the shop and saying “I want to hold off for a year and show it a bit more as it is. 
 

I can see some good things that could come from that. 

I will sleep really good tonight, knowing that I don’t have to wrestle with this very difficult problem some have. 😊 

Big car restoration at one of the top shops is well past a million bucks.  Not sure how I feel about BOS. It wasn’t on my list.

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

I hung around it for a little while to see the "unveiling," hoping they'd take it out of the box. Apparently, no one had a box cutter, so there it sat. Someone said they saw a cyber truck pulling it at one time. Apparently, it looked like two dumpsters going down the road.

I respectfully disagree, most dumpsters I see look better than that thing. And I’d probably rather smell the dumpster than see that going down the road. 😎

[Tph479]

5 hours ago, 8E45E said:

The Tesla Cybertruck concept!

 

Craig

Rumor was that this machine made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.

[wayne sheldon]

A "parsec" is a measure of distance, not time.

 

Sorry, just my engineering and physics me inside.

 

 

"Rumor was that this machine made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs." was still a good joke! 

Edited August 20 by wayne sheldon
Additional thought. (see edit history)

[Alan Cutler]

I can only imagine, the “wealthy” don't get their hands dirty folks jaws must have dropped. Spending big bucks restoring or preparing all year to get accepted to PB. Ship the rig in some cases over oceans, get AirBNB, hotels, at hugely inflated prices. Drink loads of expensive Champaign and be wined and dined by all the big auction houses with the hopes of one day consigning that beauty.

 

All to find out, the everyday “guy” that spent more in labor to smarten up a preservation class just took home the BOS at PB. 

 

Cheers for the common “person”, so you’re telling me there is a chance. Cheers to Chris B, and all the judges. It’s about time.

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

A "parsec" is a measure of distance, not time.

 

Sorry, just my engineering and physics me inside.

 

 

"Rumor was that this machine made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs." was still a good joke! 

You know you can go down a pretty deep rabbit hole with the Star Wars geeks involving the physics. They've already had that conversation five hundred times. Google it at your own risk.

[ericmac]

1 hour ago, Alan Cutler said:

I can only imagine, the “wealthy” don't get their hands dirty folks jaws must have dropped. Spending big bucks restoring or preparing all year to get accepted to PB. Ship the rig in some cases over oceans, get AirBNB, hotels, at hugely inflated prices. Drink loads of expensive Champaign and be wined and dined by all the big auction houses with the hopes of one day consigning that beauty.

 

All to find out, the everyday “guy” that spent more in labor to smarten up a preservation class just took home the BOS at PB. 

 

Cheers for the common “person”, so you’re telling me there is a chance. Cheers to Chris B, and all the judges. It’s about time.

While I agree with you on principle,  something tells me the owner of that Bugatti was anything but a common man. I loved watching his jubilation but doubt any commoner can afford any prewar Bugatti in any condition.  

[wayne sheldon]

25 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

You know you can go down a pretty deep rabbit hole with the Star Wars geeks involving the physics. They've already had that conversation five hundred times. Google it at your own risk.

 

I have been a film buff for a very long time, and enjoy both "good" and "B grade" Sci Fi as well as historic and classic films (love the silent era most of all!). But somehow, I sort of lost interest in the whole "Star Wars" thing. Never heard of the Kessel Run until now. Yikes! Star Trek made a mistake with the "parsec" thing way back, and got raked over the coals for it.

 

Enough modern weird stuff drift! Back to prewar classics!

[Studemax]

So an unrestored barn find racecar won Pebble Beach? I'll bet all those collectors who spent 2 years and untold millions restoring their classics are coming unglued. Good deal - shake up the troops!

[1935Packard]

13 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The fact that the judges were encouraged to expand their definition of "elegance" to include cars like the Stratos wedge signals that there are new, previously undecorated cars in contention. That will give them more choices and reduce the odds of similar cars winning BOS two years in a row. I suppose that's a good thing, but will it dilute the field or simply change things to include other worthy cars that have been overlooked in the past? I honestly don't know.

Uninformed speculation on my part, but I have wondered if this is partly a response to the fact that post-war cars tend to be more standardized.  When you're focused on pre-war cars, you have a set of one-off customs by famous coachbuilders that can take the big prizes.  You can differentiate because each coachbuilder is different, each custom is different, so you can say "this car is truly unique and wins best of show."  When you switch the focus to more post-war cars, as is inevitably happening as the pre/post war divide reaches 80 years back, bringing concept cars, preservation cars, and other idiosyncratic cars prevents the show from becoming stale.  We've all been to shows with a row of Porsche 911s where we think, "okay, they're cool cars, but do we need to see 20 of them?"  Better to have more unique product if you're going to sell Pebble as unique and special. 

[fletcherOH]

2 hours ago, Studemax said:

So an unrestored barn find racecar won Pebble Beach? I'll bet all those collectors who spent 2 years and untold millions restoring their classics are coming unglued. Good deal - shake up the troops!

Car auctioned for £9,535,000 in 2020

[Steve Moskowitz]

5 hours ago, fletcherOH said:

Car auctioned for £9,535,000 in 2020

So much for the "common person" winning!  A 12.5 million dollar car.   A question to be asked is that Pebble uses the ICJAG points judging system. At least they did in previous years which makes you go hmmmmmm.  Happy for the winner but also sad for those that spent considerable time and money restoring their cars to the incredible condition that Pebble always commanded.  

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I am not a PB attendee but I do follow and in general terms it seems it would serve the concours circuit well to have a healthy preservation class along with perfect restorations.  It does seem like the restoration crowd got a bit short changed, should be a place for both..

[alsancle]

I know nothing of the owner of the Bugatti which is an an awesome car.   But I was going to say that I doubt that there is a "common man" with an unrestored Bugatti GP car in the garage.

 

As far as best of show goes,  I took 500 pictures last week between the tour, the truck lot, auctions and the show.  I do not have a single picture of the best of show.  It was not the sort of thing that shouts at  you like most BOS winners.  However, it was definitely a great car.

 

For me,  the 540K SR,  the SSK,  Sam Mann's Hisso,  the Talbot,  or Ed's bosses car would have been in the winners circle.

 

 

[TAKerry]

45 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

So much for the "common person" winning!  A 12.5 million dollar car.   A question to be asked is that Pebble uses the ICJAG points judging system. At least they did in previous years which makes you go hmmmmmm.  Happy for the winner but also sad for those that spent considerable time and money restoring their cars to the incredible condition that Pebble always commanded.  

Somehow I doubt there are ANY 'common people' that have a car in the show at Pebble Beach. Guess thats why I will stick with DPC, LOL.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Been trying to stay off the forums but this thread is great thanks to those who have posted the pictures.  The Elegance at Hershey chose an unrestored 1938 Alfa Romeo 8C 2900B Spider by Touring in 2013!  It did make the news but the car was immaculately preserved and a stunning design. It got a lot of attention.  However, the Elegance chose BOS but a simple tally of the judges vote.  Each judge had a vote and it was added us and "viola"!  

 

[EmTee]

In the end, it's all subjective with the BOS pick being the most subjective of all.  At least within classes the cars are comparable, so the opportunity for point deductions are similar.  Race cars, to me, would seem to have something of an advantage in this regard as they are purpose-built and don't include any superfluous systems or components not directly supporting the intended purpose.

 

If the PB judging follows the 'originality & condition' paradigm like the AACA, then wouldn't originality need to be weighed more heavily than condition in order for a preservation class car to win BOS?  Otherwise, how could an original, unrestored entry ever eclipse an authentically restored car where everything is in pristine condition?  (I don't claim to understand anything about Pebble Beach, or the hobby at that level...)

[TAKerry]

10 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I know nothing of the owner of the Bugatti which is an an awesome car.   But I was going to say that I doubt that there is a "common man" with an unrestored Bugatti GP car in the garage.

 

As far as best of show goes,  I took 500 pictures last week between the tour, the truck lot, auctions and the show.  I do not have a single picture of the best of show.  It was not the sort of thing that shouts at  you like most BOS winners.  However, it was definitely a great car.

 

For me,  the 540K SR,  the SSK,  Sam Mann's Hisso,  the Talbot,  or Ed's bosses car would have been in the winners circle.

 

 

Looking through the pics as posted I saw a lot of really nice automobiles. The winner was def a unique car but to me it looks like a race car/sport car from the period. May very well be quite special to many people but it does little to pique my interest. As a 'common' man, I have always thought of Pebble Beach as the best of the best as far as restored cars go. Again no knock against the winner (honestly I could care less as this is one sand box I will never play in) but a car in 'original' condition although historically significant seems to be counter intuitive to the idea of a finely restored pebble beach car historically. Again, ZERO exposure to this element but I often wonder how 'politics' apply here. My wife used to have a show dog. Every show we entered the winners were pretty much picked in advance.

Edited August 20 by TAKerry (see edit history)