Hagerty Reports Lowest Drop Of the Year ….

[Trulyvintage]

 

Read More Here:

 

@ https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/in-a-year-of-decreases-the-hagerty-market-rating-sees-its-biggest-drop-so-far/?utm_content=sf195215734&utm_medium=spredfast&utm_source=fb&utm_id=6604354556791&utm_term=6604354558391&utm_campaign=6604354556791&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1PahnWWjtCrLutXti8o26g8ZGCN5bZobhcKJmjQMQB7KmpmQKQIX5HVLA_aem_uskNl9qIIj38Gki6NMpRdQ

 

 

Jim

[JFranklin]

Is that good or bad?

[Trulyvintage]

That depends on whether

you are selling or buying.

 

 

Jim

[1935Packard]

My vague sense if that this seems accurate as to the market as a whole, although of course different parts of the market are doing differently.  Maybe those who sell cars for a living here will weigh in.... (Matt H. or someone else...)

[TAKerry]

Value of cars is dropping, I suspect my next insurance bill will reflect that as well.

[edinmass]

39 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

Value of cars is dropping, I suspect my next insurance bill will reflect that as well.

 

There is no way insurance bills will drop...........values will go down, and preimums may not increase, but a decrease I can't ever see. I would give a heads up to fraud.......and agreed value policies.........if the market makes a MAJOR adjustment, and that is a BIG if.........quickly, there will be fraud issues like back in the 90's. It's easy to get reasonable insurance on cars if you have a credit rating over 750. Under that number your gonna pay more and be looked at closely if you're putting replacement or agreed values on your paperwork. 

[TAKerry]

I agree Ed, I was being a bit sarcastic.

 

I will ad in all fairness, my classic car insurance is by far the cheapest insurance bill I pay during the year.

Edited July 30 by TAKerry (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

What is unknown imo is the Long term impact of at least two different factors, one being the economy overall and the second being generational interest changes.

 

Generational impact is more gradual but probably a bigger factor as it isn't cyclical.

[zdillinger]

Values may be falling but the costs of repairing cars continue to increase. Paint costs, parts, skilled labor, etc., nevermind the increasing costs of health care which play into your liability coverage, so you can bet insurance premiums won't be going anywhere but up. These same factors (along with another that might be considered off-topic and political) are also affecting homeowners insurance premiums. Those will continue to rise as well, assuming you can still get coverage in your area/state. 

 

Source: I work in the insurance industry (at least for the next three weeks...)

Edited July 30 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

1 hour ago, zdillinger said:

Values may be falling but the costs of repairing cars continue to increase. Paint costs, parts, skilled labor, etc., 

Actually you hit major impact area #3 - cost of ownership which I would classify separately from interest/generational and overall economic factors where your other comments might be bucketed.

 

Restoration, maintenance and storage costs as well as taxes and insurance would fit here.  Restoration being the one that has changed most dramatically.

 

Tracking those three areas might give some insight on  values but I think we all understand the general direction.  I would only spend a lot of time on this if someone I cared about were to mistake our hobby as a way to retire or fund Johnny's education. 🤔😉😃

[gungeey]

What I gathered in reading the full article: The headline itself seemed to be referencing high end cars (250k).

The mean average cars (27.5k) are more than holding their own. 

Or maybe I have poor reading comprehension 

Edited July 30 by gungeey (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I have always been aware of Hagerty's policy of constant communication with the hobby. They will spew forth an article about anything to keep their name in front of the hobby.

 

I read this current article. Basically the prices of cars over $250,000 has decided at auctions. Thank you.

 

On the same page of the Hagerty Media page there was also a link to the 12 odd ball weird cars at the 2024 Monterey auction and a sign up link to get my "Daily Dose" of Hagerty news.

 

The county just south of me has a greater dairy cow population than human. We know what fodder is.

 

Yawn.

[TerryB]

Being compensated for your work time, also known as wages, has steadily increased forever and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  I don’t know of too many people who tell their boss/supervisor/employer that they are overpaid and their wages should be lowered.  Here’s an itemized list of automotive charges, including labor charges from 1926.  I bet the employees didn’t get much health insurance, 401k or paid time off back then.  Everything extra has its costs.

 

[edinmass]

In 1933, a mechanic's pay for flat rate time at a Pierce Arrow dealership in Mass was .35 cents per hour...........less than 15.00 dollars a week IF you managed to do enough work to bill out 40 hours. A decent V-12 Pierce would run you 4-6k when the mechanic was making less than 900 dollars a year.

 

 

[Sidemount33]

1933 was also the depths of the Depression, Ed. 
 

The unemployment rate was over 24%. I'd bet the guy who was making the $900 per annum was likely grateful for the job. 

[Dr B]

"The Hagerty Market Rating just experienced its largest drop of the year"

 

I keep holding my breath waiting for the sky to fall.  I'm turning dark blue!

 

Robert

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I have always been aware of Hagerty's policy of constant communication with the hobby. They will spew forth an article about anything...

I think that's well stated, Bernie.

Hagerty's statistic is just their view of the

hobby, and the measurement was even lower

for quite a few years on the same chart.

 

It's barely worth discussing.  We needn't get into

another long discussion bemoaning the state of

the hobby, telling how to get children to shows,

and discussing wages during the Great Depression!

 

 

Edited July 30 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[charlier]

6 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Value of cars is dropping, I suspect my next insurance bill will reflect that as well.

Actually my antique policy only went up 7.2% this year. The year before it was up 15%. (no claims or changes to the coverage). Year before that it was up 34% (former company purchased by a different one).

 

For those that have Hagerty Insurance for their cars do not forget to ask for the AACA discount. If you have taken a Senior Driver Safety Course there is also a discount for that as well.

 

 

 

[Dr B]

4 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Hagerty's statistic is just their view of the

hobby,

Not to nit pick, but their statistics (not their opinion or 'view') are based on millions of data points of insured car values and auction results over decades.  Not perfect, but they have a lot of data to analyze for trends.

 

However, I do think the titles of their articles are frequently "click bait", and yes, the excessive production of articles does get annoying to me at times.

 

Robert

[Steve_Mack_CT]

@Dr Bthat's why I dropped the driver's club.  Overall very pleased with them but saw little value in that.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

I have used another company since 1974. My problem is that the rates are so low they remove one of the big deterrents to buying another car.

 

26 years old in 1974 with my first collector car insured car. The interim list would be a lot shorter without the preferred rate.

Imagine health insurance if they caught me with two cigarettes at a time.

[1935Packard]

6 hours ago, zdillinger said:

Values may be falling but the costs of repairing cars continue to increase. Paint costs, parts, skilled labor, etc., nevermind the increasing costs of health care which play into your liability coverage, so you can bet insurance premiums won't be going anywhere but up. These same factors (along with another that might be considered off-topic and political) are also affecting homeowners insurance premiums. Those will continue to rise as well, assuming you can still get coverage in your area/state. 

 

Source: I work in the insurance industry (at least for the next three weeks...)

 

Interesting! I wonder, though, in the classic car insurance business specifically, if might be is offset (either in whole or in part) by people driving their classic cars less.  Less driving is likely to mean fewer insurance events and therefore fewer payouts, even if each payout is higher on average. 

[1935Packard]

2 hours ago, TerryB said:

Being compensated for your work time, also known as wages, has steadily increased forever and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  I don’t know of too many people who tell their boss/supervisor/employer that they are overpaid and their wages should be lowered.  Here’s an itemized list of automotive charges, including labor charges from 1926.  I bet the employees didn’t get much health insurance, 401k or paid time off back then.  Everything extra has its costs.

 

That's always the problem:  Your wages aren't going up fast enough, and yet the cost of paying other people to do work for you is always going up way faster than it should be! 

 

[zdillinger]

6 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Interesting! I wonder, though, in the classic car insurance business specifically, if might be is offset (either in whole or in part) by people driving their classic cars less.  Less driving is likely to mean fewer insurance events and therefore fewer payouts, even if each payout is higher on average. 

You're absolutely spot on, which is why classic car insurance is a fraction of the cost of insurance for "normal" cars. We drive them less, tend to maintain them better, etc. These benefits are a little offset by the costs mentioned and also by the fact that they tend to be less safe in crashes, leading to higher medical bills/liabiliy for occupants (especially here in Michigan where we have available unlimited medical coverage for car accidents). 

Edited July 30 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Reynard]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

In 1933, a mechanic's pay for flat rate time at a Pierce Arrow dealership in Mass was .35 cents per hour...........less than 15.00 dollars a week IF you managed to do enough work to bill out 40 hours. A decent V-12 Pierce would run you 4-6k when the mechanic was making less than 900 dollars a year.

 

 

About that same time, my father hid his Ford in a relative's barn out of town to avoid foreclosure and walked around with an empty pipe because he couldn't afford tobacco. Whatever he could scrape together went to feed his widowed mother and himself and pay rent. $15.00 a week would have been a godsend.

[edinmass]

They were very hard times……….and many mechanics only made 20 hours pay flat rate. The gentleman who actually told me this story was a Pierce mechanic, and he managed to get into the fire department the next year…….any steady job was golden in 1930-1935.

[motoringicons]

So, this chart tells us that the market has been up and down since 2010. Also, the chart shows that cars were way up in around 2022 and are lower today but today they are still way higher than they were in 2010. The car market and the house market and the stock market and the corn market and the soybean market and the prescription market and the whatever market goes up and down. Surprising???!!!!????!!!! Duh!

Edited July 31 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

We're suffering the hangover that came from the buying frenzy of 2020-21.

Everyone who even remotely wanted a car bought one. Now most guys have the cars they want, so sales (and values) are slumping. Given that the only thing car guys seem to care about is "not losing money on my car" it tracks that fewer cars would be for sale right now with prices down. That should technically start prices on the rise again, but when you add in the general aging of the hobby, that may not necessarily be the case. I think a downward arrow is going to be the norm for the future as the hobby evolves.

 

Buy cars because you want to have fun and understand that fun comes at a cost. Invest elsewhere if you simply want to make money.

[Restorer32]

Yet a restoration shop I am intimately familiar with is busier that they have ever been in the 47 years they have been working. And they do mostly full-on frame up restorations with maybe 5% of their work being repairs and maintenance.

[tcslr]

Baumol’s principle.

[60FlatTop]

I can't remember a time when I did not firmly believe in "The cost of ownership". It goes back to my early days. Right or wrong the concept has helped me enjoy my hobbies much more than many I have observed.

[Larry Schramm]

Every time that I go for a ride in one of our old cars, I consider it the equivalent to an "E" ticket ride for value that I am receiving from the drive & ride.

 

Remember "E" tickets?

Edited July 31 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

Here's a question to ponder: Would you rather the market drive the value of cars up, drive the value of cars down, or keep the value "as is"?  Pros and cons to all three options, it seems to me. Maybe it just depends on whether you plan to buy or sell and how much of your net worth is tied up in cars.   Or maybe in the end it doesn't matter all that much to those of us in the thread, as we're car guys no matter what the market does.

[Dr B]

2 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

Every time that I go for a ride in one of our old cars, I consider it the equivalent to an "E" ticket ride for value that I am receiving from the drive & ride.

 

Remember "E" tickets?

I don't know what an "E" ticket is, but I would be happy to be enlightened.

 

I kid with my wife and tell her every time we drive one of our old cars we are amortizing the cost. The more the number of drives we do, the  "cheaper" the cost of each drive! She simply smiled at me and nods her head.

 

Robert

[bryankazmer]

Old carnivals had different number of tokens required to ride, depending on the level of the ride. « A » was a basic one, an E ticket was the highest level

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Dr B said:

I don't know what an "E" ticket is, but I would be happy to be enlightened.

 

I kid with my wife and tell her every time we drive one of our old cars we are amortizing the cost. The more the number of drives we do, the  "cheaper" the cost of each drive! She simply smiled at me and nods her head.

 

Robert

 

Robert,

 

Most amusement parks used to have a book of tickets that you could buy together or individually.  Most notably was Disneyland when it opened in 1955?  The tickets ranged from A to E.  This was before the era of a single admission price to ride all of the rides in the park.  An A ticket would be good for maybe the trolley ride and the E ticket for the roller coaster because it was considered a better ride, and there were all kinds of rides between. Disney ticket book shown below.

 

 

[Dr B]

17 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Robert,

 

Most amusement parks used to have a book of tickets that you could buy together or individually.  Most notably was Disneyland when it opened in 1955?  The tickets ranged from A to E.  This was before the era of a single admission price to ride all of the rides in the park.  An A ticket would be good for maybe the trolley ride and the E ticket for the roller coaster because it was considered a better ride, and there were all kinds of rides between. Disney ticket book shown below.

 

 

Thank you. Growing up I never experienced these. All the amusement parks I remember sold one type of ticket and different rides cost different amounts of tickets depending on how desirable was that ride. I never saw different tickets like the ones you show. 

 

Robert 

[TAKerry]

18 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Robert,

 

Most amusement parks used to have a book of tickets that you could buy together or individually.  Most notably was Disneyland when it opened in 1955?  The tickets ranged from A to E.  This was before the era of a single admission price to ride all of the rides in the park.  An A ticket would be good for maybe the trolley ride and the E ticket for the roller coaster because it was considered a better ride, and there were all kinds of rides between. Disney ticket book shown below.

 

 

I thought that was what you were talking about. My sister still has a couple of those books floating around. I was at Disney World when it opened, Disneyland, not so much.

[Larry Schramm]

22 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I thought that was what you were talking about. My sister still has a couple of those books floating around. I was at Disney World when it opened, Disneyland, not so much.

 

I was at Disney World the year that it opened also.  It has changed a lot since then.

[theconvertibleguy]

This fits what I've been seeing in my small corner of the market. Cars like Vettes and some Mustangs sell quickly, and anything that's clean enough to eat off will sell eventually, but anything else sits forever. Im tracking cars that have been sitting for months, even years at this point. Nothing wrong with them, but the demand is soft. And if you're trying to sell a pickup truck, or even worse, an old big rig? Good luck.

Edited August 2 by theconvertibleguy (see edit history)