Observations at an antique automobile auction this morning

[mrcvs]

38 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I have come to the conclusion that a person needs a minimum of two buildings . One nicely insulated, heated and with ample lighting for the actual shop. And a second , possibly bigger , but very basic building purely for storage. Parts , parts cars, future projects, all the big tools and things that you need over time but only use every now and then.

I should also ask and how do you afford all that?  It’s sad I’m asking that, but southeastern Pennsylvania—southern Lehigh and Bucks counties—it’s hard to do even that.

 

I suppose I could live more rurally but I did just that right out of college and that was a no win situation.  Minimum wage, a student loan payment that was a day and a half’s wages per month, no health insurance, and no retirement plan.  No thank you, I’ll gladly take any day the situation I’m in—a third of an acre, a house, and an attached two bay garage and a driveway that parks 2 cars.

[7th Son]

2 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Is that the original owner in the back seat of your Buick?

[1912Staver]

Affording it is a huge hurdle. Something I am still working on even after quite a few years in the hobby. Not my first choice by a long shot but after my recent move I am going to buy 5 or 6 shipping containers for storage. Building a basic storage building will cost more than I can afford at present.

[mechanician]

53 minutes ago, mrcvs said:

How would one value the REO?  I thought, a brass era care, unrestored, an old coat of paint applied decades ago, can get running according to the individual who put it back together and bid 22k on it—I thought very fairly priced.  But, to be honest with you, it was worth more to me running today even if it cost me a bit more as having a car that is not running in the other garage bay where my wife’s extra car used to reside—is a hard sell to my wife.

I would value the REO based on comparable sales.  Results from the large auction houses are well publicized.  While they present an incomplete record, and auctions can skew high or low on any given day and for many reasons, they at least put you in the ballpark.  REOs sell often enough in public sales that we can come to some conclusion.  For cars that don't turn over as much, it can be harder, but the idea is still to look for comparables, it is open to more interpretation about what comparable means.  Here are two data points for the REO.  I suspect you could find more, this was a very quick search:

 

https://cars.bonhams.com/auction/28770/lot/506/1907-reo-1620hp-twin-cylinder-touring-car-chassis-no-8745/

 

https://cars.bonhams.com/auction/28770/lot/522/1906-reo-16hp-model-a-five-passenger-car-chassis-no-2911-engine-no-2911/

 

In both cases, I don't think the car from today could be brought up to the condition of these two for the difference in price.  In that sense these cars might be better deals.  Alternatively today's car might be tour-ready for a little less than these all-in, albeit at a bit lower condition.  I would therefore evaluate it as a fair price but certainly not a "deal" price.

[1935Packard]

14 hours ago, mrcvs said:

I digress, but I see the single most detrimental thing to the future of this hobby is the lack of affordable and ample real estate allowing for the building of garages and other storage facilities.

 

 

It all depends where you live, but that is certainly true here in northern California.  The cost of most cars is nothing compared to the cost of most garages.  We have fantastic weather to go for a drive, but the need to garage an antique car makes it a very expensive hobby even once you have the car and the car is running well.

[TAKerry]

What was the original topic?🤔

[pkhammer]

36 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

What was the original topic?🤔

Yes, this one is kind of all over the place. I do find the discussion of the affordability of the hobby interesting though. Perhaps someone should start a different thread on that topic as long as it's kept civil. We all live in different areas of the world and have had different experiences. I find other's experiences interesting. 

[Larry Schramm]

9 hours ago, 7th Son said:

 

Is that the original owner in the back seat of your Buick?

 

Yes it is.  My daughter thought of bringing him because people kept asking her if she/husband were the original owner.

Edited April 21 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[cxgvd]

My wife and I bought our 1913 Buick in 1998, (the one photographed by the Bugle from Larry's post).  It has been a great car to drive in the brass era hobby.  The Buick has retreated in value over the past five years and today represents a similar potential as it did twenty-five years ago,  A person must have a truck and trailer and a parking place to participate, however, life is grand at 30 miles per hour.

 

I've been in the market to purchase a Curved Dash Oldsmobile.  They used to fetch $65K, now they are $40K.  When I find one, I only buy cars from people I know, the Olds will give me ten years before I am too old to carry on.  What happen in ten years, I do not know, but I've had my fun.

 

When I bought our Model 31 Buick a friend told me I could have bought a new Taurus for what I paid for the antique.  What is a '98 Taurus worth today.

 

Buy the REO.  Bonhams is auctioning a 04 Cadillac and a '05 Franklin next Saturday, step up.

 

Regards, Gary

[mrcvs]

Some of the early Buicks in the Bonham’s auction seem attractive as well.  Right now, while still having a mortgage (until 2031), I’m stuck in the under 50k rut, as nice as the 1904 Cadillac is.

 

BUT, I think the whole point of this thread is about my limitations, and timing.

 

Mortgage paid off in 7 years.  No longer have that burden.  I retire about that time.  Now have freedom—both time and where I can live and not be subjected to a specific location with cramped real estate limitations.

 

BUT, it might, or might not, just be that in 7 years, if interest wanes some more, I might just get that 1904 Cadillac in the under 50k range.  Or, if not, at least by budget is larger and my limitations fewer.  I don’t see prices of brass era vehicles skyrocketing anytime soon.

 

A lot of the brass era stuff looks shiny, heavily restored.  The appeal of this 1908 REO is that it was not restored.  That’s what I like, maybe others don’t, and maybe I’m misguided in my approach.

[60FlatTop]

I have always considered having an extra car or cars for "toys", discretionary purchases, as something for the wealthy. Not necessarily the rich, but one who has wealth beyond daily necessities. Sure, there are requirements to maintain a desired level of hobby participation. When there is financial pressure the best way to resolve any issues is to make yourself more valuable. Develop marketable skills, elevate your education, or relocate.

[1912Staver]

I am reinventing my finances backwards. My mortgage was paid off , and I was steadily building up a shop construction fund. More or less ready to break ground. But the house was a true disaster, every problem possible. So with more than a bit of concern for the money that would be involved { I live in a part of the world that set the example of crazy house prices for Australia to follow } wife and I sold the old dump to a developer just over a year ago. The new house is quite a bit better than the old, and the property is also larger. A few acres farm zoned that we don't farm, and a really big , deep creek gully taking up quite a bit of the square footage. The whole place is anywhere from somewhat sloped to very sloped, so I doubt it could even be farmed. But the zoning kept the price somewhat affordable . You can't subdivide farmland around here unless it is a very big parcel and even then say a 60 acre plot into two 30 acre places. It just means we pay property taxes at the residential rate instead of the much lower farm status rate.

 But no decent shop and now the shop fund is spent on the new place with a not huge but still not tiny mortgage to keep me poor for quite some time to come. At least my wife really likes living in the new place. Shop and storage will be make do for the foreseeable future.

[Mark Shaw]

14 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I have come to the conclusion that a person needs a minimum of two buildings . One nicely insulated, heated and with ample lighting for the actual shop. And a second , possibly bigger , but very basic building purely for storage. Parts , parts cars, future projects, all the big tools and things that you need over time but only use every now and then.

     You exactly described my situation.  I have a home shop with radiant floor heat, & a lift where I work on my cars year-round.  And, I have a 40 X 60 metal storage building only 10 blocks from my home.  

     I think those who live in the Northeast US, most of whom are complaining about small lots and cost of living expenses, need to move west when they retire.  My 42-year-old son just returned from a business trip to Dallas TX & was impressed by how cheap he could buy acres of land with all utilities, a car barn, & house lot ready to build for about $100K.  Over 30 years ago, we escaped the high cost of California and bought 3 acres with a custom built home, horse barn, year-round stream, with horse trails throughout our little valley.  We bought that property for exactly what we got for our tract home in California.  And it was only 10 miles away from the third largest city in Washington State. 

 

[1912Staver]

Hi Mark, Have you seen the prices just North of you here in B.C. ? I am 1/2 hour or so North of Bellingham. Prices are truly insane. Even in Washington State I could have bought a place way better than what I just spent on the new place. No real option on this side of the border unless you feel like taking your chances in wildfire country.

[69merc]

On 4/20/2024 at 1:22 PM, mrcvs said:

The car is part of an estate, and was in pieces when the owner passed away.  An automobile restoration business was hired to put it back together and it supposedly runs “when towed” but that owner of the business listed off several things that need addressing, none of which would be cheap.

Hilarious!

I don't think you realize it yet, but you're doing everything right.  Even this disappointing auction is more valuable experience.  Keeping the wife happy is never an unworthy goal.  The fact that you are a couple years over fifty and find these brass era cars exciting should tell you something too. You live in a great area with a valuable home.  I wish you continued good success, and that you find the car you seek soon!

[edinmass]

Staver………….the high HP brass stuff isn’t gonna drop. I expect the 45 HP and under to adjust lower allowing for the usual conditions(year,make,body style,ect) I do think that the pre 1925 stuff is all going to find new happy homes at affordable prices……which will bring in lots new collectors. When a fun car can be purchased for a very reasonable number………..let’s say 40k or less, it’s no more expensive than a new Harley or a small fishing boat. That makes people who aren’t pure hard core car people to have an affordable toy that makes occasional use justifiable. Time will tell, either supply and demand kicks in, or lots of cars; especially projects and rust buckets are gonna meet the crusher regardless of age. Storing stuff that has zero value is simply too expensive in most east and west coast locations today.

Edited April 21 by edinmass (see edit history)

[mrcvs]

39 minutes ago, 69merc said:

Hilarious!

I don't think you realize it yet, but you're doing everything right.  Even this disappointing auction is more valuable experience.  Keeping the wife happy is never an unworthy goal.  The fact that you are a couple years over fifty and find these brass era cars exciting should tell you something too. You live in a great area with a valuable home.  I wish you continued good success, and that you find the car you seek soon!

I actually attended the auction more for the educational experience than to actually come home with this automobile.  Let’s see what the crowd is like.  Who’s bidding.  What would this car, and the other eight, bring?  If I could bring it home reasonably, so be it, but I wasn’t quite sure if 23k was a bargain, fair, or overpriced.  The fact that the individual who put it together bid 22k tells me that’s what it is worth, and that’s his business.

[1912Staver]

Hi Ed, I completely agree regarding the high H.P. brass cars. Relatively few in number.  Perhaps less than 1000 cars worldwide ? There is always going to be enough deep pocket buyers to keep prices up for our lifetime.

 45 H.P and down , still great cars . But some of us average means guys might get a chance to own them yet. 

 Please don't say pre 1925 project and crusher in the same sentence. It makes a couple of my projects nervous. 

[mrcvs]

5 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Hi Ed, I completely agree regarding the high H.P. brass cars. Relatively few in number.  Perhaps less than 1000 cars worldwide ? There is always going to be enough deep pocket buyers to keep prices up for our lifetime.

 45 H.P and down , still great cars . But some of us average means guys might get a chance to own them yet. 

 Please don't say pre 1925 project and crusher in the same sentence. It makes a couple of my projects nervous. 

What would be the horsepower of that 1908 REO I was looking at?

 

Is there a list of 1915 and earlier high horsepower automobiles and I’m gu swing that’s above 45 horsepower.

 

IIRC, the Ford Model A is only 40 horsepower and that dates to 1928 to 1831.

[DGPoff]

5 minutes ago, mrcvs said:

What would be the horsepower of that 1908 REO I was looking at?

 

Is there a list of 1915 and earlier high horsepower automobiles and I’m gu swing that’s above 45 horsepower.

 

IIRC, the Ford Model A is only 40 horsepower and that dates to 1928 to 1831.

2 cylinder REO 18-22 hp would be my guess.

 

[jdome]

1913 & 14 cadillac 4 cylinder is rated at 48 brake hp. the 1915 type 51 (first V8) is rated at 70 hp. Cadillac are probably the most affordable high hp brass cars because they are plentiful. 10,000 plus built each of those years.

[mrcvs]

I should ask—just how desirable is a 1908 REO, in the whole scheme of things?

[DAVES89]

1 hour ago, mrcvs said:

I should ask—just how desirable is a 1908 REO, in the whole scheme of things?

I'm surprised you are looking at another brass era car after what you went through with trying to get/keep it running and then selling issues with your last one.

[mrcvs]

14 minutes ago, DAVES89 said:

I'm surprised you are looking at another brass era car after what you went through with trying to get/keep it running and then selling issues with your last one.

I have a potential garage bay available.  We shall see.

 

That car I lost storage space and had to keep it out front and my wife had no patience when she had to look at it more than 24 hours.

 

Leads vack to my original post—lack of garage space and space to work under a roof. Never mind if it’s even heated or not. 

[1912Staver]

At least my wife is somewhat tolerant. When we moved last year { I finished up just before Christmas 2023 }, it became apparent the new place was short on garage / storage space. But there is a reasonably big paved parking area at the front of the house. Two good project cars just could not be squeezed in to the garage, 1968 TR 250 and 1974 TVR 2500. So from about last November when I moved them from storage at my old place till now they have been sitting under plastic in front of the house. 

 I don't have the $ or time to build a storage building this year . $ especially . So as soon as possible I am going to get a few 20 Ft shipping containers set up in my back field. I just can't let reasonably valuable cars sit out under plastic for another British Columbia , wet winter. Containers are not ideal either, but until my bank account re- charges and a basic building is built they are going to have to do.

I am also looking into a small 4 post hoist . The celling is reasonably high in the new places smallish garage. If I can find a reasonably small one { footprint } I could put the MGA that is in the garage on the hoist and park the TVR under it. My wife's Mustang takes up most of the other side. Unfortunately there is a overhead storage area taking up the extra headroom over the Mustang so I would not be able to put a second 4 post in and store the 1968 Triumph over the Mustang without a lot of work to demo the storage area.  Too many cars . way too little roof area.

 

Edited April 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Build it and you will fill it......bob 

[old car fan]

39 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Build it and you will fill it......bob 

Not a word  better  spoken. 

[mechanician]

4 hours ago, mrcvs said:

I should ask—just how desirable is a 1908 REO, in the whole scheme of things?

16hp. Considering 1 and 2 cyl cars that are "frequently" encountered, more desirable than a Brush or small 2-cyl Maxwell, less desirable than a 1 cyl Cadillac or model F/G Buick.  The Buick is arguably the strongest runner of those I listed, including the REO, all else equal.

[1912Staver]

I don't usually get very interested in the one and two Cyl. cars. But the F/G Buicks do seem like very good tour cars. The REO in question also looks like a decent car, just not quite up to the standard set by these Buicks. But still better than average in this class.

Edited April 23 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

One doesnt need 20 acres and a 30,ooo sf shop to restore a car!  I restored my car in the space of a one car garage. Yes I will add at the time I had a 3 car garage but the space was limited to one bay. My wife will not tolerate her car setting outside, it has not done so in almost 40 yrs. I did a rotisserie restore, and painted in that small space. Now the car is parked in that bay. So a one car garage bay will suffice. I know people that have restored cars with less!

[alsancle]

42 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

One doesnt need 20 acres and a 30,ooo sf shop to restore a car!  I restored my car in the space of a one car garage. Yes I will add at the time I had a 3 car garage but the space was limited to one bay. My wife will not tolerate her car setting outside, it has not done so in almost 40 yrs. I did a rotisserie restore, and painted in that small space. Now the car is parked in that bay. So a one car garage bay will suffice. I know people that have restored cars with less!

Kerry,

 

Allow me to educate you on my system.   Put the cars in the garage during the summer when she will park outside.  Don't run them for 3 or 4 months after which they won't run anyways.   Then explain that the cars are dead and won't move.

[69merc]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Put the cars in the garage during the summer when she will park outside. 

Never work.  My wife even offered to park outside, but I nixed that.  Car would be vulnerable to cat thieves, shooting out windows vandals, not to mention hail and all sorts of other inconveniences. We both drive her car, and my Merc has the other bay.  There's always offsite storage, and I did that for 4 yrs. but hated it the whole time...  I'm just grateful that my home's attached garage is 23' deep and 22' wide, so there is sufficient room for my landyacht, and even a little bit of work space.

Edited April 23 by 69merc (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:36 PM, Larry Schramm said:

 

 

One day I came home and our 1915 Buick truck was not in the garage, but our sons car was home.  A little time later he comes rolling into the drive with one of his girlfriends that he had taken on a ride.  He was 16 years old.  In my world, no problem.  Put a smile on his face, the girlfriends face and my face too.

 

 

 

 

I love it, but I'm wondering if your insurance would allow for a 16-year-old to take the car out on his own. It seems that most insurance companies seem to frown on that, by way of increasing premiums to the point of unaffordable.

[Larry Schramm]

5 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

 

I love it, but I'm wondering if your insurance would allow for a 16-year-old to take the car out on his own. It seems that most insurance companies seem to frown on that, by way of increasing premiums to the point of unaffordable.

 

Not an issue

[mrcvs]

What a lot of the brass automobiles in this auction hammered at today, presumably in good running condition, makes the 1908 REO not running and without a title at 23k not seem like such a bargain after all.  
 

https://cars.bonhams.com/auction/29953/gilded-age/?page=6

[cxgvd]

I, too, watched the Bonham's Auction and was reminded that there was a 1905 Cadillac roadster available on a Facebook ad for similar money compared to your REO you described.  It is a great feeling driving along, listening to the chain and tires, understanding exactly how the machine is doing.  We have three week long tours this summer with the one and two cyl. guys, then the Lansing to Dearborn Endurance run in the fall.

 

Regards, Gary

Edited April 28 by cxgvd
clearer (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Looking at that auction it looks like none of the higher value cars sold. Failed to meet reserve ?  The ones that are listed as sold look to have gone for relatively low prices in several cases. Lot313 , 1936 Ford  Phaeton looks very cheap at $21,280.00 including premium.