Why did they make convertible sedans?

[Tom Boehm]

A convertible sedan (4 door convertible) seems like the ideal collector car in the 21st century. A formal and majestic parade car to be driven slow in great weather and stored in a garage. 

 

BUT who bought these cars when they were new?  How were they used? They had room for 2 more passengers in the back seat but wouldn't those passengers get a blast of wind at anything faster than a crawl? A convertible coupe is romantic but a convertible sedan seems impractical and extravagant. 

 

Convertible sedans were the most expensive body style in the lineup and had the lowest production numbers. I think 1941 was the last year convertible sedans were offered. Lincoln offered one in the '60's. 

 

A 1940 Cadillac or Lasalle convertible sedan is what I would want if I ever get another collector car after I finish my Lasalle. I am fascinated by these cars because they are so elegant and extravagant. But who bought them when they were new? 

[8E45E]

Presidents and Prime Ministers, popes and other Heads-of-State & Royalty who wished to be seen in one, before security became a concern.

 

Besides postwar Lincolns, there was Rolls-Royce, Mercedes Benz, Zil and Chaika that also made convertible sedans.  And there were some one-off Citroen SM's, Fiat 2300 Lombardis, and Simca convertible sedans made after the war as well.

 

Craig 

Edited December 13, 2023 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

They were a continuation of the touring car which was the most common body style up to the mid 1920s. After that closed cars became common. I suppose there were a few old timers who preferred the open body style but by the late 30s they were very few, the last convertible sedans were 1939 models in most lines. Except for a couple of oddities like the Frazer (fake) convertible sedan/hardtop and the sixties Lincoln.

[Gearheadengineer]

1 hour ago, Tom Boehm said:

They had room for 2 more passengers in the back seat but wouldn't those passengers get a blast of wind at anything faster than a crawl?

I will ask my kids.  They have ridden many miles in the back of my ‘64 Lincoln, and always seem to be grinning. Even in their 20s they still seem to enjoy it.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Gearheadengineer (see edit history)

[kfle]

Here is the start of the convertible sedan.  Springfield body owned the patent on 'convertible sedan' in 1916/17, however they went bankrupt in 1917 and never delivered the bodies promised to automakers.  The convertible patent was sold off a few years later in bankruptcy court to the company that altered it and rebranded it to the California top and then it went from there.  Cole motor car company partnered with Springfield on their Toursedan and had big plans with lots of orders.  Due to the bankruptcy of Springfield body, it is speculated (all Cole records were lost in a flood during the 1960's) that Springfield only delivered 10 of these bodies to Cole and some to a few other auto manufacturers of the day.  They also made a Cole 2 door convertible coupe and there is one of those that Bill Harrah owned and it is still on display at the National Museum in Reno.  

 

This is the only surviving 4 door convertible sedan where all of windows slide into the body and the window frames and pillars fold down with a very finished look.   In this picture, one side is wide open.  It could go from a closed car to an open car in less than 5 minutes.   I have posted some of the ads here as well so you can see how they were marketing it which aligns to some of the earlier responses around luxury and high style.  

[Reynard]

1 hour ago, Tom Boehm said:

They had room for 2 more passengers in the back seat but wouldn't those passengers get a blast of wind at anything faster than a crawl?

 

Dual cowl/windshield cars were available as separate models or options to provide a more comfort to the rear seat passengers. 

For those who needed public adulation while displaying their wealth, fame, or importance the landaulet was also available but usually only as a custom build by the late '30's 

  

 

 

Landaulet:

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

16 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

BUT who bought these cars when they were new?  How were they used?

You probably know that touring cars (4-door open cars

with a cloth top and snap-in windows) were common in

the 'Teens and into the 1920's.  Four-door convertibles,

with cloth tops but roll-up windows, were the next natural

advancement to that form.

 

Who bought them?  Here is a quote from a 1926 article,

when closed cars were coming down in price and beginning

to take over the market:

 

"While some makers, particularly in the lower price ranges,

devote production entirely to closed types, others--mainly

in the higher priced classes--feature open models as

strongly as ever and apparently have no difficulty in selling 

them, not infrequently to buyers who can afford the luxury

of two cars, an open one for country touring and a closed one

in which [women's] delicate complexions will survive the

ravages of a trip to the opera and the cabaret."

 

The article was in Motor Mention, the magazine of the 

Pennsylvania Motor Federation (AAA), for June 1926.

The author loved the outdoorsy feel of the open car, while

many women appreciated the comforts of closed cars.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Tom Boehm]

Good responses. Keep them coming. 

 I think the most interesting reason so far is the idea that there was a time when big open cars/touring cars were the standard, common, the norm, whereas closed cars were more expensive, newfangled, and a luxury. In the late '30's there was still a small but fading market for these big open cars. Buyers of convertible sedans of the late '30's grew up with this body style. 

 

What did people use these cars for in the pre WWII era? Not all owners were dignitaries. 

 

Maybe I answered my own question. I may be thinking of this in a 21st century way. I'm thinking of these cars as being very unusual and having limited use, but maybe to some in 1940 a big open car was still normal. Maybe they just used them like we use closed cars in 2023. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Tom Boehm (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

12 minutes ago, Tom Boehm said:

What did people use these cars for in the pre WWII era? Not all owners were dignitaries. 

By the late 30's, I think that the majority of them probably were used as Parade cars or something similar when new.  I have a 1937 Buick Roadmaster Model 80C Convertible Phaeton. In 1937, Buick produced only 1,040 Model 80C's out of a total production of 220,346 cars. 

[f.f.jones]

I did a little research... Ford's last year for their 4-door convertible was 1939 and certainly not a luxury brand. The factory brochure states " two cars in one..." an all weather car. This was marketed to Ford buyers, certainly not to the elite uppity-ups.

 

 

 

 

The 1940 Buick brochure explained that the roll-up "windows could be used as wind deflectors",  as pictured in the small inset, without mentioning fair complexions or hair styles.

 

 

 

( I have a '60's convertible and my wife insists that the windows on the passenger side of the car be up whenever we drive the car. Well...   at least she'll ride in it, sometimes.)

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by f.f.jones (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

I have a '34 Packard convertible sedan.  I think of it as a "best of both worlds" body style.  When the top is down, it's a true convertible.  When the top is up, the top and its structure are solid enough that it feels like a closed car.  The challenge with the body style is that you need a top solid enough that it creates a closed car feel when up, but also light enough that it goes flat for a fully open feel when the top is down.  This also can create challenges for making the top easy enough to put up and down that one person can do it.  Some manufacturers and eras were more successful at all this than others.

 

There's a separate question of why people would buy a phaeton, that is, typically, a 4-door open car without roll-up windows, the equivalent of a roadster but with four doors.  I think of that as mostly for people who had two cars (one open, one closed) and wanted something impractical but exciting, and with room for friends.

Edited December 14, 2023 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

I would have to doubt that the cars were primarily built for parade and dignitaries. The fact they were used for such is a by product of the functionality of them. After all, how many parades are there, and how many dignitaries ride around on a regular basis in such vehicles. I surmise the popularity may be linked more to what John S included. I wonder how many were 'second' cars used in good weather, or put to use in summer homes or even more prominent in the southern climate. 

 

[JMAV8FORD]

Mercury had a convertible sedan in one year only, 1940.

[Jim Skelly]

When these were built, most cars had a floor shift, so only two people could sit in the front seat.  Two-door convertibles usually had a rumble seat to accommodate  two more passengers.  A four-door convertible would allow easier entry and exit and a more comfortable environment for the extra passengers.  Also recall that most coupes and convertibles had a small seating area behind the front seat with a seat back and small cushion to sit on and no leg room. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

16 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

A convertible sedan (4 door convertible) seems like the ideal collector car in the 21st century. A formal and majestic parade car to be driven slow in great weather and stored in a garage. 

By the mid- to late-1930's, as people have noted, the

production of convertible sedans was small.  However,

they have been popular with collectors, so many have

been preserved and restored.  Today, they are readily

found--in numbers disproportionate to their minuscule 

production.

 

I have heard owners say that operation of the large 

manual top is a 2-man job.  That too may have led to

their increasing unpopularity as better options became

available. 

 

I asked one old-timer, "Did people regularly put the 

tops down in the touring cars?"  He replied, "Well, 

younger people did."

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Art Brummer (now there is a name out of the past) told me that when he started buying antique cars in the early 1960's he would find a barn full of cars and he would take everything except the 4 door convertibles. There was little market for them except as parts cars for Roadsters and Phaetons.  Happily times have changed.

[Walt G]

1 hour ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I have heard owners say that operation of the large 

manual top is a 2-man job.

INDEED this is true! Can testify to that. All comments here are well stated especially John S. - will add that 2 - man with long arms and substantial strength to accommodate the weight.

Like putting down the top on a touring car you need several knowledgeable friends to help so that they do not loose a finger in the process between the top irons. The tops are very heavy - irons, cloth etc.

The sedans that are shown here with the side windows removed - the Franklin called this a "demi sedan"  neat idea but where do you store the rigid framed windows that were the "side curtains"?

Convertible sedans were expensive to manufacture. All doors had roll up windows, so have to be more substantial then the touring cars to carry the weight of the glass, frames for the glass, wind up mechanism etc.

I have both a touring car and a conv sedan parked next to each other in the garage here. a decade apart, one a 1930 the other a 1940. The convertible sedan is a Buick Roadmaster models 71-C. It shared the body with Cadillac series 62 in 1940 and 1941 as well. The conv. sedan can be very much like a touring car with the windows rolled down and the b pillar post removed and the rear window unzipped and laid down. I totally agree that this body style was not just created for parade use - no financial gain in that and car manufacturers made cars to sell to make money not loose $ on a particular body style.

Many of the conv. sedans that survive can be a bit "creaky" due to wear in the top irons, door hinges etc. If you happen to have one that is lower miles from new , they are as quiet and tight as a 4 door sedan.  My 40 Buick has about 53,000 miles on it from new and is quiet; Marty Roth has a magnificent 37 Buick conv sedan that is low miles as well ( was a local car here to me and was the reason I sought a conv sedan to own eventually) and these cars are outstanding to own. I think I had the top completely down once on mine - enough work to not to do again.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

I don't know the history of my 1937 Buick Model 80C before 1971. I can only say that it was obviously not driven too much since its odometer mileage is only 58,000 miles in 86 years. That is probably an indicator that it was not used much as a daily driver. I seldom have the top up and I drive the car. One man can put the top up or down, but it does take about 20 minutes, so I generally put it up in December and put it back down in February. Since the weather has been nice, the top is still down and I may or may not even bother putting it up this year. The Convertible has much less headroom with the top up than a comparable sedan, so I don't drive it much with the top up. 

[oldford]

Maybe I missed something in the above posts, but I think we are talking apples and oranges. Many, it seems, are describing CONVERTIBLES, not CONVERTIBLE SEDANS. Convertibles have a top that can drop and has roll-up windows, NO REMOVABLE PILLAR. Convertible sedans have a top than can drop, roll-up windows and a removable pillar. The California Top mentioned above was fitted to a touring car that had NO roll-up window (side curtains only).

 

Frank

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 minutes ago, oldford said:

I think we are talking apples and oranges.

Frank, since convertible sedans were an evolution

of the touring car, the conversation I think has broadened.

The thoughts and practices of people in the 1910's and 1920's

influenced the use of convertible sedans of the 1930's.

[8E45E]

6 hours ago, Walt G said:

I think I had the top completely down once on mine - enough work to not to do again.

The 1961-'67 Lincoln Continental solved that problem where the driver doesn't even have to leave his seat to unhook the header catches, and after the top has disappeared into the trunk, snap a tonneau cover in place!!  Its ALL done for him!

 

Craig

[Walt G]

Craig

It is amazing what technology can do 20+ years later, the Lincoln Continental the same year as my Buick ( 1940) shared the technology that Buick used - hand, arm. and back  power.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

The 1961-'67 Lincoln Continental solved that problem where the driver doesn't even have to leave his seat to unhook the header catches, and after the top has disappeared into the trunk, snap a tonneau cover in place!!  Its ALL done for him!

 

Craig

Plus, FoMoCo Body Engineering solved the problem of how to fill the B-pillar space even when the rear doors were rear hinged: knife switches, relays and miles of wiring to retract and lower the rear door window two inches at the push of the door handle release button, then reverse the process once the door was again latched.   

All the development for the initially intended Continental Mark II retractable hardtop then handed off for the 1957-'59 Ford Skyliner finally culminated in benefits for the 1958-'66 Thunderbird and 1961-'67 Lincoln Continental convertibles. 

Steve 

[58L-Y8]

Tom:

Before we start, let's define the convertible sedan which gets confused with other open body styles such as the phaeton.   It is a five-six passenger four door with roll-up windows and folding top designed to be completely weather tight when fully closed, completely open with windows down and top folded.

Like so many intriguing, functional body styles, the custom coachbuilders lead the way instigating and innovating the four-door convertible sedan.  Once the two-door convertible coupe construction details were worked out, it was a small conceptual leap to apply the same configuration to the four door sedan basics.    The physical requirements to keep all components in close alignment yet withstand the dynamic rigors of the moving chassis required special engineering and rigidity reinforcements.  The engineering of the massive folding top mechanism was a study in kinematics.  All this guaranteed the convertible sedan would initially be a luxury car body style, the association bonded.   Even after lower-priced makers developed production versions, those would still be among the most expensive models offered.  There simply wasn't a cheap way to build an acceptable four-door convertible sedan. 

To address, who were the typical convertible sedan buyers?  Obviously better off financially than a typical sedan customer, plus willing to pay more to avail themselves of a body style that could afford pleasurable motoring in a variety of seasons.  People who also projected an image of prosperity and sophistication.    If the convertible sedans were views as somewhat "impractical and extravagant" that was because the outlook of those folks were not as attuned to the 'good' life which could be enjoy with a convertible sedan as transportation. 

Ask a probing question, get a dissertation...
Steve
 

[Stude Light]

Oldsmobile introduced their 4 door phaeton in 1940 and only sold 50 of them. It was their first 4 door convertible to have roll up windows (and removable B pillars). At around $1500, they were their most expensive car in the line up and were discontinued after the 1941 production of 125 cars. I'm guessing prestige as far as ownership - at such low volumes you were the only one around with a phaeton.

[1935Packard]

10 hours ago, Walt G said:

. . . . . . John S. - will add that 2 - man with long arms and substantial strength to accommodate the weight.

Like putting down the top on a touring car you need several knowledgeable friends to help so that they do not loose a finger in the process between the top irons. The tops are very heavy - irons, cloth etc.

. .  . . . I think I had the top completely down once on mine - enough work to not to do again.

 

I've figured out a way to put my '34 Packard top up and down by myself, but yeah, there's that moment when the two top irons suddenly buckle that you better be ready for!

[MCHinson]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Before we start, let's define the convertible sedan which gets confused with other open body styles such as the phaeton.   It is a five-six passenger four door with roll-up windows and folding top designed to be completely weather tight when fully closed, completely open with windows down and top folded.

While I agree that roll-up windows typically are the textbook design element of a "Convertible Sedan" vs side curtains on a Phaeton, sometimes the manufacturers did not follow that definition. My 1937 Roadmaster Model 80C has roll-windows and removable B pillars but Buick called the car a Convertible Phaeton. 

[8E45E]

9 hours ago, MCHinson said:

While I agree that roll-up windows typically are the textbook design element of a "Convertible Sedan" vs side curtains on a Phaeton, sometimes the manufacturers did not follow that definition. My 1937 Roadmaster Model 80C has roll-windows and removable B pillars but Buick called the car a Convertible Phaeton. 

So did Studebaker with their '4 Seasons Roadster'.  It truly wasn't a "roadster" as they had roll-up side windows; hence the '4 Seasons' in the description/nomenclature.  Not unlike GM calling their '73-'77 A body sedans and couples, "Collonade Hardtops" because they had frameless door glass.

 

Craig

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Plus, FoMoCo Body Engineering solved the problem of how to fill the B-pillar space even when the rear doors were rear hinged: knife switches, relays and miles of wiring to retract and lower the rear door window two inches at the push of the door handle release button, then reverse the process once the door was again latched.   

All the development for the initially intended Continental Mark II retractable hardtop then handed off for the 1957-'59 Ford Skyliner finally culminated in benefits for the 1958-'66 Thunderbird and 1961-'67 Lincoln Continental convertibles. 

Check out the complexity of all these modern retractable convertibles, with their microprocessor-controlled tops.  And Mercedes Benz solved the issue of having the trunklid hinged from both the rear for the top, and at the front to load luggage the normal way.  Since then, every automaker who offered one also had this feature which made them more appealing and viable in the marketplace.  

 

I posted this before, but Peugeot showed a 407 CC 4-door retractable concept; what a convertible sedan could now be: 

 

 

Craig

[Walt G]

11 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Oldsmobile introduced their 4 door phaeton in 1940 and only sold 50 of them. It was their first 4 door convertible to have roll up windows (and removable B pillars). At around $1500, they were their most expensive car in the line up and were discontinued after the 1941 production of 125 cars

The Olds shared the same body stampings as the Cadillac model 62 and the Buick model 71-c ( like the car I own) this for both 1940 and 1941.  SO far as production numbers Olds was the least amount to use the body, then Buick , then Cadillac - not popular due mainly to cost. Take into account the annual wage people were earning at the time and what other cars /body styles were available. That factor of wages paid is not often considered by historians,collectors, writers when they view the history and then wonder - why?  Used cars in very very good condition only a year or more old were not expensive compared to the new car. Heck a decent size house in a great neighborhood was only several thousand dollars. I look at things from the perspective beyond auto history - have been involved in state and local history as I have mentioned here  before for decades.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Walt good point. Another thing to consider is the state of the economy across the decades. I was born in 64 and the economic state of things didnt really have an impact on me until about 1980 so I know the time period from there forward. But I am sure there have been many ebs and flows along the way up to that point. Some years I am sure were leaner than others which probably had an effect on sales as well.

[58L-Y8]

The median family income in 1941 was ~$1,500; of the available convertible sedans, a 1941 Buick Roadmaster was $1,775, the Cadillac 62 $1,965, the Oldsmobile 98 $1,575 and the Packard 120 $1,753, the 160 $2,180, and the 160 Deluxe $2,405.  Price alone dismissed the majority of new car buyers.  One had to be both prosperous and to conceive of how a convertible sedan would enhance one's family lifestyle.

[Tom Boehm]

This turned out to be a good thread. Thanks to all who responded. These are my new insights:

 

1. The convertible sedan of the late 1930's was the last legacy of when this bodystyle was more mainstream. Buyers were more accustomed to and accepting of the drawbacks. 

2. Just like a convertible coupe, the back windows could be rolled up to block the blast of wind.

3. The tops on these cars are as much a PIA as the sidemount spare tires. 

4. There is a high survival rate  despite very low production numbers. For example, there were only 200 1940 Lasalle convertible sedans made yet you can always find one for sale.

[8E45E]

5.  They are not all that easy to 'clone'!!

 

Craig

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

This turned out to be a good thread. Thanks to all who responded. These are my new insights:

 

1. The convertible sedan of the late 1930's was the last legacy of when this bodystyle was more mainstream. Buyers were more accustomed to and accepting of the drawbacks. 

2. Just like a convertible coupe, the back windows could be rolled up to block the blast of wind.

3. The tops on these cars are as much a PIA as the sidemount spare tires. 

4. There is a high survival rate  despite very low production numbers. For example, there were only 200 1940 Lasalle convertible sedans made yet you can always find one for sale.

I think with cars in general across the board, the ones that were 'special' when new have a much higher survival rate. Not 'special edition' cars but some that were above and beyond the regulars. They were deemed 'keepers' from new and not 'throw away' cars. Even though Model T's seem to be everywhere I would bet the percentage of surviving ones is actually low. Compared to a Duesenburg which I assume has a high survival rate. In modern times Pintos and Chevettes were everywhere but when was the last time you saw a couple of them running around compared to a 2 door chevelle.

[Tom Boehm]

Insight #6:

Convertible sedans of the late 1930's seem to be associated with more "prosperous" buyers. One reason was the high purchase price when new. The other reason is any convertible is not practical as ones primary car. Convertible buyers would have to be able to afford a second car. The back seat of a convertible sedan made them appealing to families, but an expensive and non necessary car is not a priority for most people with children. 

[Tom Boehm]

Insight #6 b.

Convertible sedans of the late 1930's and woodie station wagons have some things in common. Both were the most expensive vehicles in the lineup. Both had low production numbers. (Although still relatively low, more woodies were sold). Both were associated with luxury lifestyles. Since the first station wagons were used to shuttle tourists from the train station to resorts, hotels, and estates they became associated with leisure and luxury. Station wagons carried this association to the end with fake wood wallpaper. One difference is station wagons had a low survival rate because the wood didn't last. 

[Shootey]

Tom, as you and I know, there was a 1939 Cadillac convertible sedan that was converted  into a Wildanger-bodied wood station wagon. One interesting feature of that conversion is that because the cowl with windshield was lower than a sedan cowl, Wildanger in effect lowered the entire roofline. In a sense it is a chopped top woodie. Many convertibles, both coupes and sedans, had cutdown windshields making them look quite racy. The ‘50’s versions of the cutdown windshields were the 1953 Buick Skylark, Olds Fiesta and the Cad Eldorado. Thomas

[Tom Boehm]

I didn't know that car began life as a convertible sedan. I think that car has finally been "restored". Essentially, the wood body was reused.