Why it's going to be some time before I switch to an E.V. { Going to keep my Vintage car }

[CarNucopia]

13 minutes ago, Willy said:

Which brings up a question - if you have an ANTIQUE electric car, are the modern charging stations equipped to not charge the batteries too quickly? I understand the older batteries have to be slow charged, with lower voltage.

Sounds like it would be an incredibly efficient way to light your car on fire. 😲

[Wowabunga]

Have used SOLAR since 1999 and it's wonderful.  As long as the sun is shinning.  After a day of clouds can't run the freezer or fridge.  All things in moderation.

[pkhammer]

  I have no doubt EVs are here to stay. The technology is evolving quickly and will continue to evolve. Yes, there will be growing pains along with change, there always is, but 10 years from now it would not surprise me at all if half (or more) of the vehicles on the road will be EVs. I personally resist change at times but will also not stick my head in the sand and deny it's happening. It has certainly happened in my work over the last 40 years! I stubbornly started using a computer about 25 years ago and now cannot imagine life without one.

  Here is what I'd like to see happen before I will be ready to purchase my first EV:

  1) Extended range. I'd like to see 700-800 mile range or more out of an SUV. We travel a lot and need luggage space. If I plan to travel 10 or more hours (500-600 miles) in one day, I really don't want to stop once or twice to re-charge for an hour at a time. Sure, I need to stop and re-fuel now but what does that take, 10 minutes?

  2) Costs go down: Some of the prices I see for the vehicles and even more so, replacement batteries, scares the heck out of me. 

  3) Towing capacity: My 2004 Dodge 2500 Cummins diesel will pull a 10,000 pound trailer to Hershey one way (3 hours, 45 minutes/230 miles) with a 1/4 tank of fuel left over. A new Ford lightning towing at full capacity would need to be charged every 100 miles, or twice making the same trip. if each charge takes an hour, that makes the same trip nearly 6 hours! 

  4) More charging stations: Sooner or later most restaurants, hotels and attractions will have charging stations. That means when we travel, we can let our EV charge at the hotel while we sleep at night and be ready to go another 10 hours the next day.

 

  I'm pretty sure that eventually, all of these things will come to be, but they aren't here NOW, so while I'm not ready to be an EV owner NOW, I probably will be eventually. All I need to do is wait for the technology to come along a bit further.

Edited November 26, 2023 by pkhammer
bad wording (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Charging EVs is smart in that the charger and the car communicate to each other, at least in the Tesla environment.  The original lead acid antique electric car would not have any of this information available to transmit to the charger so no go. Just like a good brand phone or computer, the charging is regulated based on the battery’s ability to be charged.  Any comparison of the early electric vehicle batteries and charging to todays electric cars is impossible.  If I need info or something explained I usually just ask my son who is a senior mechanical engineer for Tesla so I kind of trust the source.

[arcticbuicks]

interesting though ,they[maybe not all] were variable transformer chargers that came with the car for home,and there were public charging stations in big cities

[Matt Harwood]

3 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

 

Please report back when you've done 900 miles in one day. You have the luxury of owning an EV because you have another car that is substituted for this task. Great for a two car family, but what is a one car family to do? If only there was a single car that could use electricity for short trips and gas for long trips..... 😜 A hybrid of sorts.... 

 

The other thing your example illustrates is the gap between the real value provided by an EV vs. it's cost to produce is even bigger. Your essentially new car is something the market is voting against with its own money. Which means more subsidies.

 

I have no doubt owning an EV can be pleasurable and economic on a personal level. But is your experience really something that can be projected on the larger market? Are there enough suckers to take a 70% hit for the rest of us to buy on the cheap?

 

 

Actually, my wife loves tech and uses the electric car like any other car. She has taken multiple trips to Canada in it to visit her family (in fact, she was on the Rainbow Bridge when that car crashed last Wednesday--our kids were stranded in Canada for Thanksgiving, sadly). She stops in Buffalo before crossing the border, she and the boys have lunch while the car recharges for about an hour, and then finishes the trip. Plugs it in at her parents' house while she/we are there, then does the same thing in reverse. It isn't 900 miles, but it's probably 600 miles round trip. Hardly a hardship or worthy of the sheer terror that charging a battery seems to instill in people. Is it as convenient as pumping gas? Not quite, but it's not a major demerit if you plan your trip accordingly. If you can use your GPS, you can handle charging an electric car and driving long distances in it.

 

I should also note that while she sat on the Rainbow Bridge waiting for them to sort everything out, which took about 9 hours, she used roughly 20 miles' worth of battery power to stay warm. All the other cars idling for heat for 9 hours? I wonder how many of them started getting a little nervous when their gas gauges started to get low...

 

I am a real-world user with real-world experience and real-world results. Most everything non-users know is powered by confirmation bias and concern trolling. I am not evangelical about electric cars, but I am willing to give technology a chance to move the world forward, as it always has for the past 5000 years.

And besides, more electric cars means more gas for our old cars. That should be something we're all in favor of, no?

[Matt Harwood]

And I should point out one other thing that's super cool about electric cars--they make their own fuel!

 

That's right, whenever I'm coasting or stopping, it's filling its tank. It has made me acutely aware of how much gasoline is wasted in an ICE. I like to play a game and see if I can make it to my destination with as much (or more) charge as I left with. I can do it about half the time, depending on how many hills I encounter and which way they're going. And since the electric motors do almost all the braking, my brakes will last forever (which is why one of the yearly maintenance requirements is to bleed the brakes, since the fluid doesn't ever get very hot--I do this procedure myself in about 10 minutes). 

But yes, there are literally quite a few drives that I make that require exactly $0 in fuel costs. That's pretty cool.

[arcticbuicks]

i seriously considered buying a EV about 4 years ago.....but had concerns about replacement batteries and range,

it was in a small town in the middle of the Saskatchewan prairies since new or near new..... miles from the next towns,i did bid on it .....but i think it ended up going for near $40k CDN....the interior was in amazing condition.......but already in need of new batteries

Edited November 26, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[John348]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:43 AM, CarNucopia said:

This topic does relate to antiques because as the old adage goes: "Those who don't learn from history are destine to repeat it"

 

As lovers of old cars, we're accused of letting nostalgia cloud our judgement. Guilty. But, when it comes to EVs, we're of a limited group of people who know the history of the automobile and why certain things fail. The current pursuit of EVs is just chasing windmills (figuratively and laterally).

 

Another reason people like EVs is the purchase is subsidized. Were they required to pay the actual price, not one supported by the largess of governments, profitable ICE vehicles and venture capitalists, they would not have bought it in the first place.

We should learn from history, and we must acknowledge what happened in the 70's when the gas crunch hit and impact it had on the US Auto Companies. When they did respond to the small car market they produced inferior products. Maybe if there was some "outside" inspiration prior to that, the economic impact might not had been so severe. 

 

5 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

 

Please report back when you've done 900 miles in one day. You have the luxury of owning an EV because you have another car that is substituted for this task. Great for a two car family, but what is a one car family to do? If only there was a single car that could use electricity for short trips and gas for long trips..... 😜 A hybrid of sorts.... 

 

And who drives 900 miles in one day?  Great idea about hybrids, but somebody beat you to it, hybrids have been around for a long time.

[CarNucopia]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Actually, my wife loves tech and uses the electric car like any other car. She has taken multiple trips to Canada in it to visit her family (in fact, she was on the Rainbow Bridge when that car crashed last Wednesday--our kids were stranded in Canada for Thanksgiving, sadly). She stops in Buffalo before crossing the border, she and the boys have lunch while the car recharges for about an hour, and then finishes the trip. Plugs it in at her parents' house while she/we are there, then does the same thing in reverse. It isn't 900 miles, but it's probably 600 miles round trip. Hardly a hardship or worthy of the sheer terror that charging a battery seems to instill in people. Is it as convenient as pumping gas? Not quite, but it's not a major demerit if you plan your trip accordingly. If you can use your GPS, you can handle charging an electric car and driving long distances in it.

 

I should also note that while she sat on the Rainbow Bridge waiting for them to sort everything out, which took about 9 hours, she used roughly 20 miles' worth of battery power to stay warm. All the other cars idling for heat for 9 hours? I wonder how many of them started getting a little nervous when their gas gauges started to get low...

 

I am a real-world user with real-world experience and real-world results. Most everything non-users know is powered by confirmation bias and concern trolling. I am not evangelical about electric cars, but I am willing to give technology a chance to move the world forward, as it always has for the past 5000 years.

And besides, more electric cars means more gas for our old cars. That should be something we're all in favor of, no?

That's crazy about the bridge. I'm glad she likes the car and gets full use of it. I'd just like to be able to do what she did; select a vehicle I want instead of having my choices legislated for me.

 

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

And I should point out one other thing that's super cool about electric cars--they make their own fuel!

 

That's right, whenever I'm coasting or stopping, it's filling its tank. It has made me acutely aware of how much gasoline is wasted in an ICE. I like to play a game and see if I can make it to my destination with as much (or more) charge as I left with. I can do it about half the time, depending on how many hills I encounter and which way they're going. And since the electric motors do almost all the braking, my brakes will last forever (which is why one of the yearly maintenance requirements is to bleed the brakes, since the fluid doesn't ever get very hot--I do this procedure myself in about 10 minutes). 

But yes, there are literally quite a few drives that I make that require exactly $0 in fuel costs. That's pretty cool.

Hybrids (which I apparently didn't invent) do that too.

[64avanti]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:14 PM, arcticbuicks said:

Edison invented the iron nickel battery 1901.....especially for electric cars back in the early days....

Swedish inventor Waldemar Jungner invented the nickel–cadmium battery in 1899. Jungner experimented with substituting iron for the cadmium in varying proportions, including 100% iron. Jungner discovered that the main advantage over the nickel–cadmium chemistry was cost, but due to the lower efficiency of the charging reaction and more pronounced formation of hydrogen (gassing), the nickel–iron technology was found wanting and abandoned. Jungner had several patents for the iron version of his battery (Swedish pat. Nos 8.558[permanent dead link]/1897, 10.177/1899, 11.132/1899, 11.487/1899 and German Patent No.110.210 /1899). Moreover, he had one patent for NiCd battery: Swed.pat No. 15.567/1899.[19]

 

 

Edison Storage Battery Company

In 1901 Thomas Edison patented and commercialized NiFe in the United States[20] and offered it as the energy source for electric vehicles, such as the Detroit Electric and Baker Electric. Edison claimed the nickel–iron design to be, "far superior to batteries using lead plates and acid" (lead–acid battery).[21] Edison had several patents: U.S. Patent 678,722/1901, U.S. Patent 692,507/1902, and German patent No 157.290/1901.[19

 

I live in Buffalo, NY, and the Edison vs. other inventors is a hot topic around here. Nikola Tesla had a huge impact here; his contributions helped to make this a major US city. Yet Tesla died penniless. Edison was a great marketer and self promoter, and he got (and took) credit for a number of inventions that weren't necessarily his. There is a great deal of research that bears this out.

 

Anyway, I'm one of those people who get a little irritated when Edison gets mentioned. There is no doubt that he was a great inventor of many wonderful things, but not everything he gets credit for. As I said, a great marketer and self promoter, with a real dark side.

Edited November 27, 2023 by 64avanti (see edit history)

[Jim Bollman]

Not going to get into the argument, other than it is not far enough along for me yet.  A friend has a hybrid that has enough range his wife seldom needs to get gas, maybe once every couple of months, just plugs it in at home.  Since they live in snow country up North where it is possible to be stranded for many hours in the snow, what happens if they needed to stay warm.  He said he caries a couple of solar blankets.  He claims that wrapped in one of those  with the heated seats on will keep them nice and warm and the battery will last for days on the power used by the seats. Sounded so good I made sure we had a couple of solar blankets in our ICE car just in case.  Figured it would be better to only start the car every hour or so to charge the battery than depend on the heater if we really needed it, not as likely in Tennessee.

[arcticbuicks]

people should always have a winter survival pack on hand .......no matter if they are on snow shoes ......or in a car that is electric or gas powered......and it dosnt take much......i hear this so much living in one of the coldest populated areas on the planet.......and have had it happen several times and once in -48 degrees for a day and a half .....and in -30s for hours .....and once the worst flying in northern bush plane having the engine quit from carb icing ......and personally come across those who did NOT survive......."what if i am stranded in snow with a half charge "..........it could be worse in a gas car or better ......exhaust fumes -having to keep window open in deep snow,did you hit the ditch and on a angle with half a tank of fuel -and now you have equivalent to to a 1/5 of tank on a angle ?, is the car radiator etc now plugged with snow packed under the hood and electric fan stopped ?.......cold weather where you run the battery down with flashers on and interior light use etc...... not wanting to run the car much to save gas-only to find out it now wont start with run down battery ?........newer gas cars are particularly bad for this as the computer will say something like "battery voltage too low" and simply wont let you try starting again ......with low battery.

 

You dont need to buy a kit.....just go by a check list off the internet

Just stuff a plastic tote to have in car for winter,our family always had a metal tin with tight toilet paper roll in it and we carried a bottle of burning alcohol to pour in the can {my dad used methyl hydrate from hardware store].....its like a furnace for many hours .......and candles candles ...candles....among few other things you will need to stay warm.

One of the most important items is a need help flag to put on car-so many ppl in stranded cars get passed by frosted over .... unknown to others they need help or that there is a person in the car.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bradsan]

Waiting long enough so I could have the last word😁

 

Somewhere back in the four pages , there was a comment on repairability.

NA insurance companies like to write of everything these days because nobody seems to know how to repair parts, they replace parts.

Insurance companies seem to write off not only Teslas, but any new vehicle if they are so much as looked at sideways.

It doesn't help that Tesla salvage values are very high because they still repair things in Ukraine.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjU5-zo1OeCAxUSJH0KHYZWC_MQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Fwhy-teslas-totaled-in-the-us-are-mysteriously-reincarnated-in-ukraine%2F&usg=AOvVaw0v757gG4lhh0UV3xLSv0Im&opi=89978449

Apparently , the overseas market is affecting the NA battery recycling manufactures as they are not finding the anticipated volume of material.

 

As far as the economic argument goes, you can't complain about EV subsidies without acknowledging how much your favourite fossil fuels are subsidized;  lots of different studies out there on how much but it is neither zero nor insignificant. I'm sure I could find one that would claim the subsidy on the lifetime fuel consumed by an ICE vehicle far exceeds the current EV subsidy but you  know what they say about statistics and internet studies. We've long lived in a modified capitalist society where the government picks economic winners and losers. Typically the winners have the most money to spend to get what they want. Whether one accepts the current science as a basis for the government's offer of EV subsidies as a justification for subsidies has been tackled before on this forum and likely isn't worth getting into again

 

Lastly, to bring us back to old cars and smiles, if you haven't seen it already,  here's a really good analysis of the original topic by Superfastmatt.

I think he's a former Tesla engineer.

Hope you appreciate his sense of humour as much as I do. Maybe check out his Jag conversion videos while you are a it!

The only thing he hasn't tackled yet is a tractor but he way he goes at things I think he might be eminently qualified. ( Ed?)

 

 

Brad

[A Woolf]

Nearly 4,000 car dealers ask Biden to 'tap the brakes' on EV mandates

'People just want to make their own choice about what vehicle is right for them'

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/29/nearly-4000-car-dealers-ask-biden-to-tap-the-brakes-on-ev-mandates/

[arcticbuicks]

i think the future of the planet is not our own choice........i think we have to listen to science ......and possibly science is wrong.......but.....can we afford to take that chance ?

[maok]

36 minutes ago, A Woolf said:

Nearly 4,000 car dealers ask Biden to 'tap the brakes' on EV mandates

'People just want to make their own choice about what vehicle is right for them'

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/29/nearly-4000-car-dealers-ask-biden-to-tap-the-brakes-on-ev-mandates/

I would have thought that they NOW have a choice, ICE or EV.

[bradsan]

Darn , I promised myself. Oh well.

 

I want a vehicle powered by a plutonium fueled SMR .. but I can't have one 😒. There 's the government for you.

Yes I know its comparing apples to cyanide but it's illustrative of the issue .

 

The Biden  comment simply makes my earlier point about the government picking winners and losers though; and how that is typically accomplished by people with the lobby money  . The dealerships that are crying foul are the same ones that  have successfully lobbied every state government to limit who you can buy a vehicle from. Every anti-direct sales piece of state legislation creates a dealership subsidy that you are paying for but no one is complaining about that. I suspect the dealerships are really worried about the warranty/service gravy train drying up. Take transmission and engine warranty work, oil changes and brake jobs out of the equation and that is a lot of lost income. It is definitely not in their best long term interests for them to sell you an EV.

 

For the record , I think EV's  are technologically fascinating and are the future. I'd love to have one but I don't see one in my immediate future. The F150 Lightning would suit me perfectly but I don't have $115k Cdn Pesos and   I don't drive enough;  the amount of fuel my 1997 F150 will use over the rest of my lifetime will never produce enough CO and CO2 to offset the carbon cost of an  new electric vehicle let alone a more fuel efficient ICE vehicle.

 

Not that I don't have concerns about EV's

Between the battery pack, the LCD tough screen  instrument panel and the computer need to run it, when Teslas do become vintage vehicles , they will be a restorer's nightmare.

What happens in 25 years when you can't up date the operating system in your 30 year old Tesla and the charging station only accepts V.2.3.45.  See, I have some old iPhones!

 

One more video , Tesla's front and rear structural casing and the structural battery pack are very interesting but making the pack structural means it will never be repairable like their older pack .

Watch Munro and Associates try and take one apart. Yes , there are batteries under all that foam....somewhere!

 

 

 

But who knows, maybe you'll be able to 3D print the whole car in 20 years!

 

 

[A Woolf]

40 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

i think the future of the planet is not our own choice........i think we have to listen to science ......and possibly science is wrong.......but.....can we afford to take that chance ?

You mean like the "science" of the recent unpleasantness? 

[arcticbuicks]

the younger generation are already wizards with older teslas .....in just a few short years .......and changing them to 4 wheel motors and all kinds of mods etc .......maybe they do not know what a carburetor is ...or a 8 track tape .......but they sure know electronics and connect the car online with techs through their phone apps or by laptop etc

[arcticbuicks]

@A Woolf i mean the science as a whole ......from all around the world ,not from one country,most governments of developed countries have a mutual agreement that fossil fuel use needs to end .

i do not think america will be a leader in EVs.......more likely the EU or even South Korea with kia and Hyundai and China

Edited November 30, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Willy]

I’m not against EV, but this administration is pushing it too fast - I think it has to progress in its own time.  There should be allowances for collector cars, to show or drive.

[1912Staver]

The $100,000,000.00 question still is " are E.V.'s actually making a substantial difference " ? As I see it in a E.V. environment where the cost of an out of warranty battery replacement easily costs more than the vehicle is worth then the answer has to be no. Who in their right mind would take a risk like that, unless wealthy enough to just take that sort of loss in stride? And how does 7 or 8 year old vehicles being not worth repairing help anyone except for the Vehicle industry itself ?

 

But still not saving the planet, just saving ones ego / conscience to me. A solution that only just sort of works for the rich is hardly a solution to a world wide problem. 

  At the end of the day , the only thing that matters is are E.V.'s making enough of a difference with Global warming to justify the cost ? Or should we all be spending all that money on something that will make for a better solution ?

Edited November 30, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[8E45E]

16 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

 .......but they sure know electronics and connect the car online with techs through their phone apps or by laptop etc

I saw a glimpse of that on TV in 1967 when The Joker stole the Batmobile.  Batman was able to take over control of it while him and Robin were riding the Batcycle remotely from The Joker by randomly opening the doors on him while he was driving it, and in the end, once Batman caught site of it, was able to pilot the Batmobile to a safe stop with a miniature steering wheel on the Batcycle.  Anyone else remember this episode??

 

Craig

[TerryB]

The $100,000,000.00 question still is " are E.V.'s actually making a substantial difference " ? As I see it in a E.V. environment where the cost of an out of warranty battery replacement easily costs more than the vehicle is worth then the answer has to be no. Who in their right mind would take a risk like that, unless wealthy enough to just take that sort of loss in stride? And how does 7 or 8 year old vehicles being not worth repairing help anyone except for the Vehicle industry itself ?
 

Unfortunately your statement is incorrect.  There were quotes presented here that said that, including from a Ford parts guy that had to “look it up”.  What he and others did not mention, even in the case of the Ford quote is that EV manufacturers are using modular approach to battery pack so that replacing the entire pack is not required.  You can replace a bad section of battery for much less than buying an entire pack.  There are so many misconceptions and half truths floating around it boggles the mind at times.  The Ford example was a prime example, who would buy a car whose replacement battery pack cost more than the price of an entirely new car?  The $59k dollars were in Canadian money.  I looked up the list price of a new Mustang E here in PA and the base price was just under $50 k.  The Ford battery models are around $4.5 to $5k each.  
 

One real issue for adaptation is the availability of charging stations.  On the west coast they are much more prominent, here on the east cost they require more looking but are not impossible to find.  When charging places are as numerous as gas stations then the anxiety over driving range will go away.  Are EVs saving the planet?  Who knows exactly what the impact so far is as it’s still in its infancy.  Lots of speculation tied in to science but as we see, science is not always accepted as “science”.  The internet will provide you with whatever science and facts you want to believe in.  Just like here on this discussion group.  In the meantime everyone will pick the camp they want to listen to and go from there.

[Matt Harwood]

18 minutes ago, TerryB said:

The $100,000,000.00 question still is " are E.V.'s actually making a substantial difference " ? As I see it in a E.V. environment where the cost of an out of warranty battery replacement easily costs more than the vehicle is worth then the answer has to be no. Who in their right mind would take a risk like that, unless wealthy enough to just take that sort of loss in stride? And how does 7 or 8 year old vehicles being not worth repairing help anyone except for the Vehicle industry itself ?
 

Unfortunately your statement is incorrect.  There were quotes presented here that said that, including from a Ford parts guy that had to “look it up”.  What he and others did not mention, even in the case of the Ford quote is that EV manufacturers are using modular approach to battery pack so that replacing the entire pack is not required.  You can replace a bad section of battery for much less than buying an entire pack.  There are so many misconceptions and half truths floating around it boggles the mind at times.  The Ford example was a prime example, who would buy a car whose replacement battery pack cost more than the price of an entirely new car?  The $59k dollars were in Canadian money.  I looked up the list price of a new Mustang E here in PA and the base price was just under $50 k.  The Ford battery models are around $4.5 to $5k each.  
 

One real issue for adaptation is the availability of charging stations.  On the west coast they are much more prominent, here on the east cost they require more looking but are not impossible to find.  When charging places are as numerous as gas stations then the anxiety over driving range will go away.  Are EVs saving the planet?  Who knows exactly what the impact so far is as it’s still in its infancy.  Lots of speculation tied in to science but as we see, science is not always accepted as “science”.  The internet will provide you with whatever science and facts you want to believe in.  Just like here on this discussion group.  In the meantime everyone will pick the camp they want to listen to and go from there.

 

So you're suggesting that if one solution doesn't fix ALL the problems, we shouldn't even try?

 

And it's worth noting for about the 10,000th time that not all batteries fail at a certain age or mileage. There are indications that many batteries are living long, healthy lives. Like any other car, it comes down to how well it is maintained. It would be a mistake for me to judge all internal combustion engines based on that one Saturn that I had that swallowed a valve at 8000 miles, right? Even if the news wrote an article about my piece of shiat Saturn designed to confirm what everyone already wanted to believe, it still wouldn't make all internal combustion engines doomed to failure at an early date. Don't base your entire opinion on statistically irrelevant horror stories sensationalized by the media and concern trolls.

[1935Packard]

49 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 As I see it in a E.V. environment where the cost of an out of warranty battery replacement easily costs more than the vehicle is worth then the answer has to be no. Who in their right mind would take a risk like that, unless wealthy enough to just take that sort of loss in stride? And how does 7 or 8 year old vehicles being not worth repairing help anyone except for the Vehicle industry itself ?

 

I wonder if the used car market sheds some light on this.  If your view of EVs is right, the market value of used EVs would be very low, much lower than gas cars. After 7 or 8 years, the cars would not be worth repairing.  But as I understand the market, the average depreciation is ballpark about the same as it is with gas cars.  (Used EV cars vary more, as I gather the technology is changing very quickly and that can lessen the value of used EVs that are based on prior generations of technology. But that's the nature of quick advances.) 

 

 

[1935Packard]

This  map shed some light to me on our EV debates.  Around here, in California, EVs are super common.  They're everywhere, and very popular. But I gather some of you are writing from places where EVs are rare.  I wonder how much that has to do with our disagreements. 

 

 

https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2023/11/30/washington-electric-vehicles-cars-rank-state

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

The $100,000,000.00 question still is " are E.V.'s actually making a substantial difference " ? As I see it in a E.V. environment where the cost of an out of warranty battery replacement easily costs more than the vehicle is worth then the answer has to be no. Who in their right mind would take a risk like that, unless wealthy enough to just take that sort of loss in stride? And how does 7 or 8 year old vehicles being not worth repairing help anyone except for the Vehicle industry itself ?

 

But still not saving the planet, just saving ones ego / conscience to me. A solution that only just sort of works for the rich is hardly a solution to a world wide problem. 

  At the end of the day , the only thing that matters is are E.V.'s making enough of a difference with Global warming to justify the cost ? Or should we all be spending all that money on something that will make for a better solution ?

 

They could certainly build cheaper electric cars, just as they could build cheaper ICE cars. Would anyone buy them? America's fascination with big trucks and SUVs suggests that price and fuel economy are secondary to performance and image. An electric car without the rocket sled acceleration and more modest range without any upscale features would certainly be a lot cheaper. But would anyone buy it?

 

You want a bare-bones, no options, crank window, 60 MPH commuter, 150-mile electric car for $8000, they could probably build it. I suspect they would sell only one--to you.

 

This is what it looks like:

 

 

You think the automakers don't do their market research? You think they just build stuff and hope the customers show up? You think they're somehow hypnotizing people into buying big trucks? No, they build what sells. And in North America, bigger is always better, and faster is always a plus. Nobody builds small, cheap, efficient yet underpowered commuter cars for the North American market. There's surely a reason why...

[TAKerry]

I keep telling myself to tap out of this convo, but my last bit of input. EV's are a great idea. I wouldnt mind owning one myself. However the REAL reason for the hugenormous push for them currently has nothing to do with saving anything!!! Planet, people, gas or otherwise. 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

You want a bare-bones, no options, crank window, 60 MPH commuter, 150-mile electric car for $8000, they could probably build it. I suspect they would sell only one--to you.

 

This is what it looks like:

 

.

That's why they never sold any in the 1960's when they came out with what is shown in the photo.  Simply put, they were UGLY!!

 

Worst yet was 5 years later when the public accepted ugliness when 1973 & later cars got influenced by those awful black rubber-bumpered ESV's that were shown everywhere and endorsed by the NHTSA and IIHS.

 

Craig 

[oldcarfudd]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

When charging places are as numerous as gas stations then the anxiety over driving range will go away.

Not quite.  Not only will charging stations have to become ubiquitous like gas stations, but the time spent at the charging station will have to come way down, and the mileage between charges will have to go way up.  Otherwise, the time needed for a long trip will go way up because you wont't be able to go as far in a day.  Most of my trips are short, and an EV's range will let me do everything I need to do in a day and recharge at night.  But when I want to trailer an old car to a distant meet, give me an ICE - please!

[maok]

26 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

Not quite.  Not only will charging stations have to become ubiquitous like gas stations, but the time spent at the charging station will have to come way down, and the mileage between charges will have to go way up.  Otherwise, the time needed for a long trip will go way up because you wont't be able to go as far in a day.  Most of my trips are short, and an EV's range will let me do everything I need to do in a day and recharge at night.  But when I want to trailer an old car to a distant meet, give me an ICE - please!

 

IMO, there won't be charging stations like petrol/gas stations like now, city and town vehicles will all charge at home, work or parking lot. There will be charging stations on highways, again not like they are now, probably be more like parking lots and a cafe/eatery/entertainment building alongside.

[maok]

For those who are waiting on a cheap and long range EV, its here,

 

Luxeed shakes up market with 855 km range S7, starting at $35k (electrek.co)

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

So you're suggesting that if one solution doesn't fix ALL the problems, we shouldn't even try?

 

And it's worth noting for about the 10,000th time that not all batteries fail at a certain age or mileage. There are indications that many batteries are living long, healthy lives. Like any other car, it comes down to how well it is maintained. It would be a mistake for me to judge all internal combustion engines based on that one Saturn that I had that swallowed a valve at 8000 miles, right? Even if the news wrote an article about my piece of shiat Saturn designed to confirm what everyone already wanted to believe, it still wouldn't make all internal combustion engines doomed to failure at an early date. Don't base your entire opinion on statistically irrelevant horror stories sensationalized by the media and concern trolls.

How does a typical owner maintain a E.V. battery ? Is there a good way and bad way to drive one / maintain one ? I assume fast charging is harder on a E.V. battery than slow , overnight charging  , but really don't know.

 

 There is only one problem that E.V.'s are trying to solve and that is helping the environment. Are they working ? 

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

They could certainly build cheaper electric cars, just as they could build cheaper ICE cars. Would anyone buy them? America's fascination with big trucks and SUVs suggests that price and fuel economy are secondary to performance and image. An electric car without the rocket sled acceleration and more modest range without any upscale features would certainly be a lot cheaper. But would anyone buy it?

 

You want a bare-bones, no options, crank window, 60 MPH commuter, 150-mile electric car for $8000, they could probably build it. I suspect they would sell only one--to you.

 

This is what it looks like:

 

 

You think the automakers don't do their market research? You think they just build stuff and hope the customers show up? You think they're somehow hypnotizing people into buying big trucks? No, they build what sells. And in North America, bigger is always better, and faster is always a plus. Nobody builds small, cheap, efficient yet underpowered commuter cars for the North American market. There's surely a reason why...

 

 

I was, and remain very happy with my $10,000 .00 , 2010 Hyundai Accent hatchback. A really great little car. I have put over 250,000 KM's on it { just over 150,000 miles } with virtually no trouble. { one crank position sensor when still under warranty, it wasn't even a tow in, just would run rough at times}. Very fuel efficent. Hauls almost as much as my wife's Ford Ranger. Won't pull my tandem car trailer however. 5 speed and actually anything but underpowered. Quite quick in reality. { remember I also own a Lola Sports 2000 race car so I have a pretty good idea of what a fast car feels like }

 If I could buy another one I would. MG , Triumph, TVR etc. guy most of my life so small is second nature to me.

Edited December 1, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

I was, and remain very happy with my $10,000 .00 , 2010 Hyundai Accent hatchback. A really great little car. Very fuel efficent. Hauls almost as much as my wife's Ford Ranger. Won't pull my tandem car trailer however. 5 speed and actually anything but underpowered. Quite quick in reality. { remember I also own a Lola Sports 2000 race car so I have a pretty good idea of what a fast car feels like }

 If I could buy another one I would. MG , Triumph, TVR etc. guy most of my life so small is second nature to me.

Like I said, if they made such a thing today they'd sell only one. That's why they don't make Hyundai Accent hatchbacks anymore.

[TerryB]

Approximately 1% to 3% (depends on the data source) of the vehicles on the road in the USA are EVs. If the data from that number shows any measurable or meaningful data, especially if it’s positive outcome I would be surprised.  When I worked in an engineering environment, a sample size of one percent wouldn’t be considered credible for any prediction.  About on par with a crystal ball accuracy.

[ply33]

39 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

How does a typical owner maintain a E.V. battery ? Is there a good way and bad way to drive one / maintain one ? I assume fast charging is harder on a E.V. battery than slow , overnight charging  , but really don't know.

 

 There is only one problem that E.V.'s are trying to solve and that is helping the environment. Are they working ? 

Generally owner maintenance for battery longevity is to simply only charge to 80% unless leaving on a road trip. DC fast charging can wear the batteries more than slow overnight AC charging. But the manufacturers pretty much have to assume you are always charging to 100% on DC fast chargers so that is what they base their battery wear warranties on. A number of manufacturers are switching to LFP based battery chemistry which typically has 3000+ charge cycles before the drop to 80% of original capacity. If the car with a LFP battery has a pretty typical range of 250 miles when new that works out to a battery life of 750,000 miles. At which point the car would have only a 200 mile range but still be drivable.

 

For my daily drivers I have usually had cars with pretty good fuel economy which also meant they have not been notable for sporty acceleration. The EV may cost more up front but while getting a lot more miles/$ on consumables has rocket like acceleration. I just give those people with late model Chargers, etc. an internal smile and change from "Eco mode" to "Sport mode" and they don't stand a chance against my small SUV family car when the traffic light turns green. And my cost per mile for “fuel” is less than it was for my old Prius.

 

I had it in for the 30,000 mile scheduled service this week. This was a big one: In addition to the standard inspect everything and rotate the tires, the cabin air filter was due for replacement. That’s it. I don’t know how I am going to afford that when the free scheduled service ends.

 

25 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Approximately 1% to 3% (depends on the data source) of the vehicles on the road in the USA are EVs. If the data from that number shows any measurable or meaningful data, especially if it’s positive outcome I would be surprised.  When I worked in an engineering environment, a sample size of one percent wouldn’t be considered credible for any prediction.  About on par with a crystal ball accuracy.

Depends on where you are with respect to EV adoption in the area and what the traffic patterns are. I would be very surprised if the number of EVs on LA freeways during rush hour is as low as 3%. Apparently the EV penetration in LA has been enough to correlate it with decreased ER admissions for asthma.

[TerryB]

Where I live it would be a struggle to see 1% EV traffic.  That’s why I said in the USA as a whole because that’s what is generally accepted as the EV to ICE ratio from what I could find.  If you live somewhere that has higher percentages then you may be able to have measurable results for sure.

 

The report I really found interesting that came out this month is that the worldwide use of more than 280 million electric scooters and motorcycles is being credited with reducing the worldwide demand for oil by 1 million barrels a day. There are quite a few of them where I live here in south central PA.  They will fade in use as winter sets in.  Perhaps that’s the answer😀 (except when it snows).