Modern fasteners on Brass Era cars

[Luv2Wrench]

How does everyone feel about modern faster on Brass Era cars?

 

Reusing 110 year old fasteners in safety critical areas is a no go for me so I'm wondering what others are doing when replacing ancient fasteners with modern fasteners.

 

Grinding off grade markings?

Using or not using lock washers?

Peening the end of the bolt to keep nut on?

Machining a matching replacement?

Leave zinc finish or strip and do what?

 

I'm leaning towards grinding off grade markings and machining duplicates where modern is way off.  I'm not sure about peening/mangling bolts to ensure nuts stay on.  This was done on all three of the Metz (parts) that I've seen.  Any critical area was hammered to death to make sure nut stayed on.   I might do this on the bolts securing the hubs and other areas I'm near 100% sure are not coming back apart.

 

I have no idea what I'll do about the plating.  Very interested in experience here.  Anyone have a nice black finish that doesn't corrode?   Is black oxide acceptable on an old car?

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

If it's visible and non-mission-critical, I try to re-use original fasteners. If it's invisible or important (like clutch bolts or the hub bolts you mention) I use modern grade-8 hardware. And if it's visible but I still need to use new hardware, I at least grind the markings off. I usually use stainless fasteners if they're visible and not doing structural work, then grind and polish the heads. Sometimes I paint the fasteners if they're supposed to be part of an assembly. I like to use lock washers instead of modern nylocks or something like that. Stainless lock washers usually work well, although they're admittedly not as springy as regular steel--I limit them to one use only.

[Gary_Ash]

15 minutes ago, Luv2Wrench said:

Grinding off grade markings?

Using or not using lock washers?

Peening the end of the bolt to keep nut on?

Machining a matching replacement?

Grind off the markings if you have to, though places like Restoration Supply Co. may have bolts without markings.  They do have high head bolts with black oxide finish machined from 4142 steel (Grade 5 equivalent).  The problem with grinding the marks off is that neither you nor the next owner will know what kind of bolt is being used, but then old bolts never had markings anyway.

 

Lock washers have been used for decades, though current methods indicate that not only do they fail to prevent loosening, they may actually accelerate it.  See the Bolt Science web page.  Just be sure to torque the nuts to 85-90% of yield either way.  Turn the nut or the bolt head?  See this:  https://www.boltscience.com/pages/nutorbolttightening.htm

 

I hate ruining stuff, so peening threads doesn't appeal to me.  If you are still worried about nuts coming loose, get all-metal prevailing torque lock nuts that won't damage bolt threads and can be re-used a few times.

 

Machining a bolt from round or hex stock will generally produce a bolt with less strength than a commercial bolt.  Bolts are made by "heading" a piece of stock by a forging process, either hot or cold, which makes the grain in the metal flow as the head is formed, increasing the strength.

 

If you want the new bolts to look like old ones, there are black oxide solutions that can be used.  I don't know if the process works on zinc-plated hardware, though a soak in citric acid will remove the zinc, then blacken immediately.  I think blackened hardware needs a wax overcoat or something to prevent/delay rusting.

[Rusty_OToole]

If you want the authentic old fashioned black finish heat your hardware red and drop it in a bucket of linseed oil.

 

Lots of old parts had a flat black or semi gloss black paint. Barbecue paint is about the toughest paint I have encountered and it stands up to heat.

[Gary_Ash]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If you want the authentic old fashioned black finish heat your hardware red and drop it in a bucket of linseed oil.

But doesn’t that undo the heat treatment given to Grade 5 and Grade 8 bolts to strengthen them?  If they are heated to cherry red, they are at about 1500 °F, enough to anneal them.  Then, alloy or high carbon steels would get hard but brittle when dropped in the oil unless re-tempered.  For mild (low carbon) steel used in Grade 2 bolts, this isn't a problem as they don't harden when quenched.  Choose carefully.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

There are also dimensional differences on the heights on some bolt heads. There are sources for new replacements for some sizes. Check antique tractor parts sources or McMaster Carr. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[trimacar]

As Terry alludes to, most early (brass era) cars used what are known as “heavy” nuts and bolts, much thicker heightwise than modern fasteners.  I don’t like seeing modern bolts on an early car, and they are very conspicuous when used.

 

They are available but sometimes pricey.  

[DFeeney]

I would guess most brass era car owners would go the extra work to keep their hardware. ( As close as possible)

[JV Puleo]

I'll play devil's advocate here. I see no point in grinding off grade markings. The heads of modern bolts are so different from those in use in 1913 that you can tell at a glance if they are modern whether they are marked or not. Personally, I just make whatever bolts will show but I understand this isn't something everyone can do...but Luv2wrench can. It's tedious but once you have done it a few times it isn't hard and the results are much more satisfying. I suspect it's done because it's about the only thing most people can do.

 

Lock washers were always used in period...or at least every untampered with  car I've worked on had them. Where they are missing it's because someone had it apart and didn't replace them. I would use new lock washers. They do occasionally break and the risk is much higher when reusing old ones.

 

I do polish off the zinc plating. That's just there to keep the bolts or screws from rusting in the box.

 

I never peen the end of a bolt to lock something in place. That was done because it was never presumed the part would be disassembled. The very fact that the question arises means it isn't relevant to what we are doing. It was also the cheap way...and lots of car makers chose cheap over good. I'd either use lock washers and Locktite or, if space allows, castellated nuts and split pins. That is an equally "period" method but one that was obviously more expensive to do.

 

I also never used tapered pins unless I'm making a part that is not intended to be broken down. This is usually where I'm replacing a casting or forging with machined parts and it's easier to make them in separate pieces. If they were originally one part they are useful. If there is any chance they may have to be taken out they are a major PIA.

 

When restoring...or rehabilitating (which is probably a more accurate word) very early cars we have to ask ourselves if we actually want a working machine or not. Many times is simply isn't possible or practical to replicate the part as it was originally made. The best we can do is make a new part that blends in with the machine and isn't jarring to see. This is very different from bringing back common prewar cars...or virtually any post war car. The same criteria simply cannot be applied unless we want a static display rather than a working machine.

Edited July 10, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

3 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

But doesn’t that undo the heat treatment given to Grade 5 and Grade 8 bolts to strengthen them?  If they are heated to cherry red, they are at about 1500 °F, enough to anneal them.  Then, alloy or high carbon steels would get hard but brittle when dropped in the oil unless re-tempered.  For mild (low carbon) steel used in Grade 2 bolts, this isn't a problem as they don't harden when quenched.  Choose carefully.

And...where brass cars are concerned I've never run into a heat treated bolt. They are nearly always soft and I say "nearly" because I  hold out the chance that some, for some special purpose, may not have been.

[JV Puleo]

I don't know if what we know as black oxide was around then. I've looked into bluing which was common in the firearms industry and can give a blue/black finish. In gun work the metal is highly polished first. For automotive work I'd dispense with that. Nickel plating goes back to at least the 1870s and H.P. Maxim had many of the parts of his first motorized vehicle plated in 1897 so it's been around from the beginning.

[prewarnut]

For color change I recently bought some gun bluing solution for cold bluing from Birchwood Casey (not the superior hot bluing method). It was for another project and somewhat produced a dark charcoal grey. You could easily try that and see what you think on new fasteners. It's pretty easy.

[JV Puleo]

11 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

Machining a bolt from round or hex stock will generally produce a bolt with less strength than a commercial bolt.  Bolts are made by "heading" a piece of stock by a forging process, either hot or cold, which makes the grain in the metal flow as the head is formed, increasing the strength.

Heading does produce a superior bolt but I think that in 1913, when Jeff's car was built, they were machining them in screw machines from round stock and then milling the hex. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Entertaining talking about how to blacken bolts and nuts.  When the early cars were first manufactured, chassis paint was either brushed or “daubed” on with a paint saturated rag.  A fine finish on most running gear may happen with high dollar cars, but not the run of the mill cars.  Heck, Ford dipped fenders in black paint and let the excess drip off.

 

Now, yes, I’ve seen period pictures of cars with optically correct paint jobs, shiny as can be.  Many cars were like that, after the paint and sanding needed for a body then.  Running gear?  Meh, not so much…

[JV Puleo]

Walter Chrysler relates that when he first went to work for Buick they were painting the chassis with the same care as the body. He put a stop to that since, as he commented, the paint would be covered with mud and dirt shortly enough.

 

Many years ago I attended the Dusters meet at Lars Anderson Park in Brookline, Mass. Present were two fabulous unrestored cars, a Stevens Duryea of about 1910-1911 and a 1911 Locomobile 48. Both were in original paint and upholstery...frayed and dusty but tremendously impressive. The Stevens had a red chassis with yellow pinstriping. It was much wider than we think of pinstripes today and it was nowhere near as perfectly applied. It rather looked like the apprentices did it and Stevens was a very high end car. Today, on a "restoration" it would be laughed off the field.

 

This was well before the advent and popularity of trailers. Both of these cars drove to the meet and drove home afterward.

Edited July 11, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

"Grades" of bolts and nuts is not the end-all, cure-all, go-to for what is "best".

Thirty years ago, I reworked a proper year engine for a model T that I was hoping to keep and use for the rest of my life. I took great care to put it together the best way I could. A supposedly minor issue at the time was that I had all but run out of model T wrist-pin bolts. The only thing I had ever used in that location was original model T Ford issued wrist pin bolts. While they have a distinctive look about them, taller than usual heads, long slim shank, a hole drilled through the head to wire it so that the bolt cannot back out? There is nothing really special about them. Almost any really good 3/8 24 thread bolt with an appropriately length shank to fit against the wrist pin should work fine as long as some effort is made to keep it from baking out (several modern methods should work just fine and cannot be seen so far inside the engine once done).

However, that wrist pin bolt is in an extremely abusive location! the incredible stresses between the piston and the crankshaft, direction of stresses changing twenty to a hundred times per second! The pounding from the explosions above the piston, the draw from the intake stroke, vibrations of many sorts, heat cycles, all stressing that wrist pin and its bolt to the limits!

 

Being short on real model T wrist pin bolts, and having already tried to get some from my usual sources, I asked a longtime friend and machinist what he would recommend. His answer was that he didn't trust seventy year old wrist pin bolts, and always replaced them with either new suitable connecting rod bolts or modern grade eight bolts. I asked where he got his grade eight bolts and he rattled off a few hardware supply stores. I chose one I had been to before, and bought a handful of appropriate size grade eight bolts. 

The engine ran great for the first several short trips, and then came its first big club tour, an overnight and about 300 hard miles!

About halfway through the first hundred miles, I became aware of a slight knock developing. And it was slowly getting worse. I began to suspect a wrist pin knock, I had had one a couple times before, and something unique in their behavior made me think I had one (or more?) again.

We got into the motel for that night, and off came the head and pan inspection cover. One of the offending bolts was so badly stripped of threads and buggered up, the rod had to come out and it took more than an hour to finagle that ruined grade eight bolt out of there. I had one real model T wrist pin bolt in my bolts can I was carrying on the tour, and one other suitably sized bolt. Of the four grade eight bolts I had put in the engine, Two had failed badly, and one was clearly already nearly failed. With two viable replacement bolts, I got the one apart out of the engine (after about an hour of cussing!), the other I managed to get apart and replace it in the engine! 

A kiss and a prayer and we were back on the road the next morning. Day two was shorter and easier miles, however, less than halfway back we began to hear another wrist pin knock. The third one was heading for failure. We took a could short cuts, heading toward the finish as gently as we could under our own power.

We made arrangements to leave the car at a local friend's home for a few days, until I could return with my trailer to take it home. 

The next weekend I again pulled the head and pan cover, rechecked all four rods, and preplaced all four wrist pin bolts with original ones I had scrounged up during the week.

Final assessment? All four modern grade eight bolts may have in fact been very hard. Certainly they were hard to cut with a hack saw (I know, I tried them!). And they may have been very difficult to bend? I tried that too. But under very tight toque, and vibration stresses? The threads broke off the bolt like so much brittle glass!

 

I have never been willing to trust grade eight bolts ever since.

Edited July 11, 2023 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Your observations are very valid. It's mistake to think that the "grades" imply that one bolt is better than another. The fact is that different applications call for different solutions and presuming a hard bolt, much harder and probably a good deal more brittle than the original, is in improvement is dangerous. There is a lot of "seat of the pants" engineering going on with enthusiasts much of which has no rational basis. Always presume that the original designers actually know what they were doing. Anyone who thinks that mechanical engineering was in the stone age in 1910 needs to read some of the period engineering manuals...if you can do the math they demand. (I can't...but I can tell when I'm reading something way above my pay grade.)

 

Do I make changes?...yes I do but I am very careful about doing it and it's usually choosing a material that is close to the original and slightly stronger. If you want period engineering specs, find an early copy of the SAE handbook. The first was in 1926 (I  think) but the specs cited in it go back to at least 1910 and the technical committee of the ALAM.

[Luv2Wrench]

Great response by everyone and I'm very appreciative of the information!

 

My main focus is what it looks like as I'd like to restore this car such that one could look at it in great detail and learn from how it was put together.  Fasteners are obviously a big part of that.   Fortunately before I changed my major to Electrical Engineering I was going to be a Mechanical Engineer so I do have a pretty solid background for understanding the functional requirements of the fasteners.  My goal is to get it to look correct while, obviously, not sacrificing safety.

 

As an example of what I'm trying to accomplish, I will most likely peen the bolts that will not be removed (such as hub bolts).  I'll be using modern thread lockers but I would peen them because that's how they did it then and I think maybe an important detail.  Maybe, lol.  We'll see when it comes down to that.  

 

The 1913 Metz Model 22 Roadster that I'm working on has some interesting fasteners and I'll do everything I can to either reuse where safe or make lookalike replacements elsewhere.  

 

[JV Puleo]

I expect your brake drums are attached to the rear hubs. If so, when you peen the hub bolts you make it impossible to remove the drums if they need to be ground. I'd use bolts with split pins there, just in case they do have to come apart at some point.

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

I expect your brake drums are attached to the rear hubs. If so, when you peen the hub bolts you make it impossible to remove the drums if they need to be ground. I'd use bolts with split pins there, just in case they do have to come apart at some point.

There's an odd cylinder of sorts that separates the brake drum (which is also the drive sprocket) and the wheels.   If I do peen anything it will be something that isn't going to be coming apart and will be done after I'm done with everything else.  I do think I will get the car running/driving with modern fasteners and replace as I go.

[Gary_Ash]

15 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Heading does produce a superior bolt but I think that in 1913, when Jeff's car was built, they were machining them in screw machines from round stock and then milling the hex. 

I don’t think most bolts were machined from bar stock large enough in diameter to then machine a square or hex head in 1913.  Processes for making threads by rolling in dies were developed by the 1880s, so a roll of wire would be cut into short pieces, placed in an upsetting die to forge the head, then the thread rolled. The wire diameter was smaller than the major diameter of the thread and the rolling process moved the metal both inward and outward as the thread was formed, but no swarf is produced.  Machining from large bar stock would have been too slow, wasteful of material, and expensive. The American Screw Company in Providence, RI was an early volume manufacturer of wood screws and bolts using such rolling processes. 

[JV Puleo]

That's an excellent idea. I like the idea of testing all the components before they are locked in place,

[JV Puleo]

3 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

I don’t think most bolts were machined from bar stock large enough in diameter to then machine a square or hex head in 1913.  Processes for making threads by rolling in dies were developed by the 1880s, so a roll of wire would be cut into short pieces, placed in an upsetting die to forge the head, then the thread rolled. The wire diameter was smaller than the major diameter of the thread and the rolling process moved the metal both inward and outward as the thread was formed, but no swarf is produced.  Machining from large bar stock would have been too slow, wasteful of material, and expensive. The American Screw Company in Providence, RI was an early volume manufacturer of wood screws and bolts using such rolling processes. 

That's interesting. If they were heading bolts that early – or at least major manufacturers were – I wonder if the material they were using wasn't rather soft. I'm thinking of some of the car companies that made their own fasteners. I seem to remember reading that both Locomobile and Cadillac did and, if so, would they have used that process? Brown & Sharpe made a lever operated production milling machine that was advertised as ideal for machining bolt heads. I think they made their own and its only on machine tools that I've encountered heat treated bolts that early.

 

We used to have the Standard Nut & Bolt Company in Valley Falls. I've been in that plant. Everything looked as if it pre-dated WWI but I don't think I ever say the actual machines or, if I did, didn't know what I was looking at. You could go down there on a Saturday morning and the foreman would let you in and sell you whatever you wanted...at a very good price.

 

Allen (of the Allen screw) invented a cold heading machine to make his socket head screws. They were first introduced in 1910 so it's clear the technology was there quite early on.

Edited July 11, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

19 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

"Grades" of bolts and nuts is not the end-all, cure-all, go-to for what is "best".

Thirty years ago, I reworked a proper year engine for a model T that I was hoping to keep and use for the rest of my life. I took great care to put it together the best way I could. A supposedly minor issue at the time was that I had all but run out of model T wrist-pin bolts. The only thing I had ever used in that location was original model T Ford issued wrist pin bolts. While they have a distinctive look about them, taller than usual heads, long slim shank, a hole drilled through the head to wire it so that the bolt cannot back out? There is nothing really special about them. Almost any really good 3/8 24 thread bolt with ab appropriately length shank to fit against the wrist pin should work fine as long as some effort is made to keep it from baking out (several modern methods should work just fine and cannot be seen so far inside the engine once done).

However, that wrist pin bolt is in an extremely abusive location! the incredible stresses between the piston and the crankshaft, direction of stresses changing twenty to a hundred times per second! The pounding from the explosions above the piston, the draw from the intake stroke, vibrations of many sorts, heat cycles, all stressing that wrist pin and its bolt to the limits!

 

Being short on real model T wrist pin bolts, and having already tried to get some from my usual sources, I asked a longtime friend and machinist what he would recommend. His answer was that he didn't trust seventy year old wrist pin bolts, and always replaced them with either new suitable connecting rod bolts or modern grade eight bolts. I asked where he got his grade eight bolts and he rattled off a few hardware supply stores. I chose one I had been to before, and bought a handful of appropriate size grade eight bolts. 

The engine ran great for the first several short trips, and then came its first big club tour, an overnight and about 300 hard miles!

About halfway through the first hundred miles, I became aware of a slight knock developing. And it was slowly getting worse. I began to suspect a wrist pin knock, I had had one a couple times before, and something unique in there behavior made me think I had one (or more?) again.

We got into the motel for that night, and off came the head and pan inspection cover. One of the offending bolts was so badly stripped of threads and buggered up, the rod had to come out and it took more than an hour to finagle that ruined grade eight bolt out of there. I had one real model T wrist pin bolt in my bolts can I was carrying on the tour, and one other suitably sized bolt. Of the four grade eight bolts I had put in the engine, Two had failed badly, and one was clearly already nearly failed. With two viable replacement bolts, I got the one apart out of the engine (after about an hour of cussing!), the other I managed to get apart and replace it in the engine! 

A kiss and a prayer and we were back on the road the next morning. Day two was shorter and easier miles, however, less than halfway back we began to hear another wrist pin knock. The third one was heading for failure. We took a could short cuts, heading toward the finish as gently as we could under our own power.

We made arrangements to leave the car at a local friend's home for a few days, until I could return with my trailer to take it home. 

The next weekend I again pulled the head and pan cover, rechecked all four rods, and preplaced all four wrist pin bolts with original ones I had scrounged up during the week.

Final assessment? All four modern grade eight bolts may have in fact been very hard. Certainly they were hard to cut with a hack saw (I know, I tried them!). And they may have been very difficult to bend? I tried that too. But under very tight toque, and vibration stresses? The threads broke off the bolt like so much brittle glass!

 

I have never been willing to trust grade eight bolts ever since.

You have reminded me of a story I read on the Practical Machinist forum. The gentleman that told the tale had been in charge of maintenance in, I think, a steel mill. They had a huge crane that was bolted down to a concrete base. The bolts, which were massive would stretch and had to be replaced at regular intervals. The previous maintenance man decided to "fix" this by replacing them with Grade 8 bolts. This worked for a while until they snapped and the crane literally fell over. That ended his job...and the fellow who told the story was hired and had to re-errect the crane.

[wayne sheldon]

JVP, I have many times over the years told about those wrist pin bolts stripping off. In return, I have often been told other stories of grade eight bolt failures. They apparently fail a lot more often than anybody knows about. It seems that "common knowledge" means NO knowledge! The proverbial hundred times I have heard people exclaim how they "always use grade eight bolts because they are the best and strongest!" A few of the failures I have heard about were people that "always" used grade eights.

Sometimes it is tough being an "engineer" in a clueless world.

 

Thank you for your story! It is one of the best.

[Bhigdog]

My thoughts would be unless you get a certification sheet with grade 8 (or any) bolts you are rolling the dice as to alloy and yield strength. I'm guessing that is true of many hardware store bolts. Pretty easy to add a couple of extra lines in the heading die at some Chinese bolt factory. Just saying.........Bob

[JV Puleo]

5 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Sometimes it is tough being an "engineer" in a clueless world.

I'm not an engineer myself but I've spent a lot of time studying both materials and old machining practices to get an idea what was originally used, how the parts were made and why. I'll repeat that its a big mistake to presume the average car enthusiast knows more than the original designer. About 99% of the time he doesn't.

Edited July 12, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

2 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I'm not an engineer myself but I've spent a lot of time studying both materials and old machining practices to get an idea what was originally used, how the parts were made and why. I'll repeat that its a big mistake to presume the average car enthusiast knows more than the original designer. About 99% of the time he doesn't.

 

Arguably, I am not either. However, I was taught by real engineers to do the work of a real engineer. I have no degrees to hang on a wall. Lots of certificates saying I have completed courses and seminars on a wide range of fields. Other than those, school and I never got along. I went to college enough to take the courses I wanted to learn, and in about half of them I actually learned something other than school and I were not going to get along.

My dad was the same way, he often said that "a college education was not a cure for terminal stupidity". And frankly, he was right. I am mostly self taught, and all through school was two to three years at least ahead of whatever grade I was forced to be attending. 

I was born with a mindset to think like an engineer, and have always been that way. I was trained by real engineers, and for most of over forty years much of the work I did was that of a real engineer. However, in all honesty? I do not have the degree to hang on a wall.

 

JVP, I have read a great deal of your postings, including some of your "projects" threads. I have a great deal of respect for you, and your abilities!

Edited July 12, 2023 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Brass era bolts often appear to have been made as JV Puleo suggested. Machined from stock. But most of the ones I have looked at closely at seem to have started as hex stock rather than round stock. Reasonably frequently there is a small nub right in the center of the head where the almost finished bolt has been parted from the unmachined portion of the hex stock. And as mentioned they were probably made on automatic machines  . The threads themselves may have been rolled rather than cut . But the shank often appears to have been machined down to the required diameter  from hex stock the same size as the head .

Edited July 12, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

6 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

You have reminded me of a story I read on the Practical Machinist forum. The gentleman that told the tale had been in charge of maintenance in, I think, a steel mill. They had a huge crane that was bolted down to a concrete base. The bolts, which were massive would stretch and had to be replaced at regular intervals. The previous maintenance man decided to "fix" this by replacing them with Grade 8 bolts. This worked for a while until they snapped and the crane literally fell over. That ended his job...and the fellow who told the story was hired and had to re-errect the crane.

Joe, you would like the way that the really big studs are tensioned on ships and other very large machines. The stud extends well past the  " nut " . The nut is actually just a large cylinder of steel, no hex. Just a series of small radialy drilled holes close to the top of the " nut ". To tension large sleeves are fitted over the nuts. the sleeves have slots milled through them coresponding with the radial holes. Then large hydrulic jacks are screwed onto the part of the stud that stands clear of the stud. the correct pressure is applied to the jack stretching the stud the correct amount. The nuts are then wound down with small pieces of round stock that fit the radial holes. Just snug then back off slightly. { usually 2 or 3 of the radial holes , the manufacturer specifies how much } . The hydralic pressure works through the sleeve to the head surface and pulls upwards on the stud. Then release the jacks and remove the jacks and spacers. Presto , a 100 % correct tension on the stud. To correctly tension fasteners of this size with conventional hex tools would be very difficult.  The jacks make it quite easy. The jacks and sleeves  are rather heavy however, if you are tensioning many studs at a go { like a full set of heads on a marine diesel, or a set of foundation bolts  }. By the end of your shift you can tell your body has had a real work out.

Edited July 12, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

In the aircraft world, there is a big distinction between bolts used in tension (e.g. cylinder head bolts for cars) and those used in shear (e.g. wrist pin bolts or spring shackles).  The ratings for bolts used in shear are much less than in tension, even for the same bolt.  For shear bolts, it is made clear that there should be no more than 2 threads in the shear area, the load should be placed on a smooth shank.  Loading a threaded portion of a bolt in shear leads to very quick failure due to a variety of causes.

 

Fastenal has a good web page on bolted joints:  https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Article - Bolted Joint Design.pdf

[George K]

From a review of Locomobile materials and shop practices 

[ply33]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Joe, you would like the way that the really big studs are tensioned on ships and other very large machines. The stud extends well past the  " nut " . The nut is actually just a large cylinder of steel, no hex. Just a series of small radialy drilled holes close to the top of the " nut ". To tension large sleeves are fitted over the nuts. the sleeves have slots milled through them coresponding with the radial holes. Then large hydrulic jacks are screwed onto the part of the stud that stands clear of the stud. the correct pressure is applied to the jack stretching the stud the correct amount. The nuts are then wound down with small pieces of round stock that fit the radial holes. Just snug then back off slightly. { usually 2 or 3 of the radial holes , the manufacturer specifies how much } . The hydralic pressure works through the sleeve to the head surface and pulls upwards on the stud. Then release the jacks and remove the jacks and spacers. Presto , a 100 % correct tension on the stud. To correctly tension fasteners of this size with conventional hex tools would be very difficult.  The jacks make it quite easy. The jacks and sleeves  are rather heavy however, if you are tensioning many studs at a go { like a full set of heads on a marine diesel, or a set of foundation bolts  }. By the end of your shift you can tell your body has had a real work out.

Decades ago, while getting my engineering degree, this method of setting the clamping force on large, critical "bolts" was described. No worries about if the threads are rough, dirty, over lubricated, etc. messing up your torque readings. And no worries about the bolt itself being being weakened by being twisted along its shank by the rotation of a tight nut. I went into a different field so never encountered this "in real life" but I can definitely see the need for this technique in some situations.

[kuhner]

A model T has no type of lock washer. Almost every bolt has a cotter pin.

I think lock washers were only invented in the early 20s. 
If there was a better more efficient way I’m sure Henry would have done it.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Close, 1912 is one patent:

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1025958A/en

[playswithbrass]

Not to make a thread drift but I think this applies,modern gear style hose clamps and modern electrical terminals with the blue ends. This is an absolute no no in my opinion.

[Bhigdog]

16 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Joe, you would like the way that the really big studs are tensioned on ships and other very large machines. The stud extends well past the  " nut " . The nut is actually just a large cylinder of steel, no hex. Just a series of small radialy drilled holes close to the top of the " nut ". To tension large sleeves are fitted over the nuts. the sleeves have slots milled through them coresponding with the radial holes. Then large hydrulic jacks are screwed onto the part of the stud that stands clear of the stud. the correct pressure is applied to the jack stretching the stud the correct amount. The nuts are then wound down with small pieces of round stock that fit the radial holes. Just snug then back off slightly. { usually 2 or 3 of the radial holes , the manufacturer specifies how much } . The hydralic pressure works through the sleeve to the head surface and pulls upwards on the stud. Then release the jacks and remove the jacks and spacers. Presto , a 100 % correct tension on the stud. To correctly tension fasteners of this size with conventional hex tools would be very difficult.  The jacks make it quite easy. The jacks and sleeves  are rather heavy however, if you are tensioning many studs at a go { like a full set of heads on a marine diesel, or a set of foundation bolts  }. By the end of your shift you can tell your body has had a real work out.

This is the way the compressor/turbine stack was clamped together on at least one of the planes I flew. I think the tech said they jacked until they saw 50,000 pounds psi on the gauge then snugged up the nut that held it all together. He didn;t know what that translated into for the amount of linear stretch to the shaft.........Bob

[Luv2Wrench]

3 hours ago, playswithbrass said:

Not to make a thread drift but I think this applies,modern gear style hose clamps and modern electrical terminals with the blue ends. This is an absolute no no in my opinion.

Not at all and I agree.  Happy to hear more issues that people run across. 

 

Perhaps pictures and links to period correct radiator hoses and clamps would be helpful

 

[Stude Light]

If they are in good shape I just reuse my original bolts and nuts. I check the threads  for signs of being overnighted and throw out any of those and replace with a few newly machined ones. I’ve not had any problems doing that.

I use black oxide and Boeshield T-9 to give the original oiled look or will paint as necessary to match for originality. Personally, I hate seeing over restored cars with a bunch of newly plated or polished fasteners that would not have been there originally. I generally use new oiled steel lock washers and apply Loctite in more critical areas.

 

Just a quick discussion on the safety side about reusing fasteners…..

 

The fasteners were originally designed for the loads they were subjected to and, yes, over time they get cycled which may eventually fail them. I don’t know the metallurgy of the original ones nor of purchased replacements so it’s a crap shoot either way.

 

Probably the most critical part on any of our cars is the front spindle. The second most are the steering components. Then maybe the shackle bolts and u-bolts. Those are all single point failures for a catastrophic event. If these are not getting replaced then what basis do you use for safety critical?
 

Things like head bolts, transmission mounting bolts, body bolts, lug nuts, etc. have some built in redundancy. Other things like connecting rod bolts or flywheel bolts were typically designed with a higher grade fasteners so, again, whatever modern day fastener you pick is a crap shoot without knowing the design and manufacturing specs. 
 

I don’t really consider something that fails on the propulsion side that safety critical. Steering is number 1 and stopping is number 2 so that is where I try to focus on and ensure I inspect and will do my best to replace any questionable fasteners.