Cutting gasoline with kerosene for cooler running - other advantages(disadvantages)?

[Terry Harper]

This was mentioned to me years ago and it recently came-up in recent thread in regards to adding a percentage of kerosene to try to replicate to a limited degree the properties of early gasoline and help a brass or 1920's era vehicle run cooler. What is your experience with that? Is it worth it? I know its not a "fix" for a compromised cooling system and that is not what we are looking for. Are there any other advantages?

 

The reason I ask is we have a vehicle due to arrive at the museum this spring with a massive (962 cid) T-head engine and like all our vehicles and equipment it will be operated and demonstrated to the public. Our goal is to establish best operating practices. If cutting the fuel with kerosene offers an advantage than we would incorporate it. If not than we would run straight non-ethanol. Our overriding goal is to minimize wear and maximize reliability.

 

Your thoughts and experiences are welcome and appreciated.

 

 

[leomara]

An interesting topic, on my parts car (1928 Chrysler sedan) there was a small rectangular can in the engine compartment looking like it would not hold more than a half gallon of fluid.  I was told it was mounted on the firewall and filled with gasoline during the war time rationing.  The routine was to start the car using the gasoline in the small tank until the engine was warmed up and then shut off the gasoline using kerosene to run the engine from the fuel tank.  Never heard of this before. 

[Terry Harper]

20 minutes ago, leomara said:

An interesting topic, on my parts car (1928 Chrysler sedan) there was a small rectangular can in the engine compartment looking like it would not hold more than a half gallon of fluid.  I was told it was mounted on the firewall and filled with gasoline during the war time rationing.  The routine was to start the car using the gasoline in the small tank until the engine was warmed up and then shut off the gasoline using kerosene to run the engine from the fuel tank.  Never heard of this before. 

That's interesting. On early tractors and stationary engines that was very common - start on gas and switch to kerosene.

[Rusty_OToole]

How about a little history of gasoline and the oil industry in general.

 

Petroleum oil was first produced in Pennsylvania in the 1850s. Lamp oil was the big market and gasoline was a waste byproduct. So they would put as much gasoline as they dared, into the lamp oil. Lamp oil or kerosene in the late 19th century had a piercing odor and was prone to exploding in the lamp when the oil level was low. This was because of the gasoline in it.

 

Later they made gasoline lamps (Coleman being an example) and gasoline stoves. So they stopped throwing away the excess gas and started selling it. This was pure gasoline. I have seen references from about 1900, for example, of a man who filled the gas tank on his DeDion tricycle and forgot to put the cap on. In a few days all the gasoline evaporated. So this was very light, pure gasoline.

 

Then, cars and gas engines became popular, while at the same time, electric lights and gas lights replaced oil lamps in towns and cities. So the oil business changed again, and the demand was for gasoline more than kerosene or lamp oil.

 

By 1913 gasoline was in short supply and getting more expensive. The oil companies started cutting more and more kerosene and heavy ends into the gasoline. Car makers responded by lowering compression ratios, adding various devices to heat the incoming mixture and vaporize the oily gas. And they went to long stroke, small bore engines to better use the slow burning oily fuel.

 

This was the situation until the addition of tetraethyl lead starting in the late twenties. This artificially raised octane and allowed higher compression. About the same time a new cracking process allowed making more gasoline from a barrel of oil.

 

That was more or less the situation until after WW2. I believe they ramped up production of lead additives for airplanes during the war, and this led to greater use of leaded gas after the war since it was cheap and available. I remember the gasoline of the fifties and sixties as being yellow and oily but with high octane rating thanks to the lead additives.

 

Starting in the seventies they took the lead out and lowered octane, then when fuel injection became popular, from the nineties on, they made a purer gasoline that was less oily and more dry. They also began adding alcohol, up to 10% or 15% in some areas. This stuff evaporates and vapor locks easily but that does not matter with fuel injection since it is always under pressure. But can cause problems in an old car with a carburetor.

 

So if you wanted to duplicate the gasoline of the period 1913 - 1930 you would want to add some kerosene or stove oil to today's gas. This would lower the octane rating, make it harder to vaporize (and vapor lock) allow the engine to develop more power and run cooler. But might make it harder to start unless everything was in tune.

 

Now how much kerosene do you add? I have heard of using 10% to 25%. The higher number was from a man who used a twenties Buick as a tour car and ran it on 25% kerosene for years.

 

You might consult your car's compression ratio. Your octane should look like the compression ratio. For example, a Model T with 4.5:1 might run best on 45 octane. A twenties car with 5.5:1, 55 octane. A typical flathead forties car with 7:1, 70 octane. Naturally this is not a hard and fast rule, just a guide. But you know today's regular of 87 octane is for regular cars with 8.5:1 and the hi test 92 octane is for performance cars with 9.5:1.

 

Hope this gives some food for thought and helps figure out the best way to go.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Some discussion of old vs new gas and what to do about it at the 30 minute mark in this video. Jay Leno drives a White tour bus

 

 

[ckowner]

I have been mixing 20% kerosene to non ethanol premium gas in my 1930 DeSoto. I am not a chemist but understand that the kerosene brings the octane level down to the right level for the compression level these cars had. Mine runs and starts great on it. In Canada I understand the only gas stations that sell non ethanol premium is Chevron. It also comes through a separate hose so to don't get a shot of different fuel first

[Dave39MD]

Would diesel work instead of kerosene?

 

Dave

[Rusty_OToole]

Diesel will work in a pinch. It is heavier than kerosene or stove oil, and might give your exhaust a slight diesel smell. Another idea is to add a shot of 2 stroke oil, Redex, Marvel Mystery Oil or other upper cylinder lubricant to lube the valves and rings. This might be especially beneficial to flathead motors that are prone to sticking valves when left unused for long periods.

[31nash880]

How about this system installed who knows when. I run mmo in it.

[Rusty_OToole]

Upper cylinder oiler or inverse oiler, said to reduce engine wear 50% in the critical valve and piston ring area. Especially valuable with the gas they sell today.

[carbking]

60 plus years ago, we farmed with John Deere 2 cylinder model A tractors.

 

The tractors had the 1/2 gallon starting tank for gasoline, plus the main tank for kerosene. 

 

The starting procedure was to start the engine on gasoline, run at a very high idle (maybe half throttle), and switch to the kerosene.

 

The stopping procedure was to turn off the kerosene, and let the engine run completely out of fuel

 

OR

 

Switch the fuel to gasoline and idle for about 10 minutes.

 

Woe is you, if you failed to do one or the other when you went to attempt starting a cold engine.

 

I have NOT tried kerosene in a passenger engine.

 

Jon

[Rusty_OToole]

carbking am curious about what it would take to run kerosene in a car engine. Say you had an old car with low compression, 6:1 or so, possibly by adding a second head gasket.  Would you need to add heat to the carburetor, intake manifold, or maybe heat the kerosene in the fuel line before it hit the carburetor?

[carbking]

Rusty - I don't know; have never tried it in a car.

 

But an engine is an engine.

 

I know it was futile to try to run the John Deere on kerosene at less than half throttle until the engine was hot.

 

I know it was impossible to start the John Deere on kerosene if the engine was not hot.

 

I know we rebuilt a lawnmower engine that would not start because someone unfamiliar with such things filled the lawnmower with kerosene instead of gasoline when they ran out of gasoline. The hot engine would NOT start, and we didn't think about the possibility of kerosene. Oh well, rebuilding an engine is good experience  

 

And in the FWIW category, Dad finally got tired of fooling with the kerosene, and we ran the tractors on gasoline alone. Of course we had gasoline then, and not something else.

 

Jon

[EmTee]

I remember my father telling me this story.  He worked for the county highway department and said another county employee, presumably an administrator of some sort who was issued a county car came by and decided to fill-up the car at the county gas island.  Well, apparently he filled-it up with diesel and didn't make it out of the parking lot...

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[31nash880]

Ever see a diesel truck run on gasoline? Doesn't last long.

[jpage]

Of course, with the high price of kerosene, there's now no financial benefit to using it!

[Oldtech]

Carb King's story brings back memories. We had the same deal on our tractors.

I had a cousin years ago with a 223 Ford 6 and not much money that used to cut his gas with diesel fuel. He said he could run up to 50 % as long as the engine was hot, but better dilute it down to less than 20 if you wanted it to start the next morning. I don't think it ran very well on the 50-50 mix. 

Yes a heated manifold was necessary on the old tractors to run kerosene. On gas a cold manifold gave more power. 

[WPVT]

I recall reading a short article in Popular Mechanics from during gas rationing days, about running a car on kerosene instead of gas. To preheat the kerosene, they wrapped the fuel line around the exhaust manifold a few times.  

 

I've had to retard the timing on my flat head Dodge quite a bit to reduce engine noise, assuming that the culprit was high octane gas. I wonder if the gas/kero mix would help with that.

Edited March 4, 2023 by WPVT (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

The idea would certainly be worth a comparison using a common secondary ignition oscilloscope, exhaust sniffer, and a few strategically placed temperature sensors. Has all the makings for a doctorate thesis, maybe better than some.

[jrbartlett]

I've not tried cutting gasoline with kerosene, but I don't see how an engine on it would run cooler because kerosene produces more BTUs when burned than gasoline. Seems like a mix might therefore produce a little more power, but run slightly hotter. 

[hidden_hunter]

Not sure what it's like for you guys, but kero is more expensive than our gas (and ours isn't ethonol) so would only do it if there are some other benefits? 

[dodge28]

Rusty-Otoole, you done it again. I came to Canada 52 years ago from a British Colonial island . The heating of the engine with petrol and then switch to kerosene was standard practice on almost all engines.    

[Rusty_OToole]

10 hours ago, jrbartlett said:

I've not tried cutting gasoline with kerosene, but I don't see how an engine on it would run cooler because kerosene produces more BTUs when burned than gasoline. Seems like a mix might therefore produce a little more power, but run slightly hotter. 

The heavier fuel contains more energy but burns slower. This is why they went to a long stroke engine, to give the fuel time to burn completely.

[Tonz]

In Australia hardware Kero is about $6 / L.

Unleaded is about $1.70/L.

Jet A (about 30% Kero, 70% petrol) is about $1.80/L. But not really available to the public.

Diesel is a bit dearer than unleaded.

I currently add 40ml of Penrite Valve Shield to each full 8 gal tank, which if you read the blurb it does all you need for these old flatheads.

But if caught out I could easily put a squirt of diesel in the tank at the Bowser's.

 

 

 

 

[Buick35]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:34 PM, Terry Harper said:

That's interesting. On early tractors and stationary engines that was very common - start on gas and switch to kerosene.

I had a Mercedes diesel that I converted to run on vegetable oil. I had to start it on diesel and switch over to veggy oil after it warmed up.

[Mark Shaw]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:35 PM, Rusty_OToole said:

am curious about what it would take to run kerosene in a car engine.

My late father had the answer. 

     He was in High School during the war & drove a 1931 Model 67 Buick (Exactly like the one I have today).  That car used a Silphon thermostat to operate louvers for temperature control.  Gasoline was rationed during the war, but he could get all the Kerosene he wanted.  So, he disconnected the thermostat and used a wire to manually operate the louvers.  He would start the car on gasoline and pull the louvers closed to heat up the engine before switching to kerosene.  By adjusting the louvers, he could keep the engine running hotter to minimize the heavy white smoke the kerosene produced when it didn't burn hot enough. 

     He had a great story about this too.  He and his brother would take their dates to a local dance hall on weekends.  Entry fees were charged just ahead of the parking lot but there was a side road around the back of the dance hall that was in view of the fee takers.  When he got to the side road, he opened the louvers and created a smoke screen so he could sneak around the back for free!  I don't know if it is true, but it is a great story.