Are Rare Cars Best Preserved in One Collection or Spread out Amongst Several

[3macboys]

Edinmass 's comment about the Chadwicks all being in one collection made me ponder if that is good for protecting that particular marque or not. 

 

On the one hand the expertise to maintain them is presumed to be there and knowledge learned from one vehicle can be readily transferred to the others.  The caveat is that if something happens to the holder of the information and they have exclusive knowledge that it is all gone in one fell swoop.  The same holds if some catastrophic event happens to the storage facility, if all of a single marque are held in one place they too could disappear all at once.

 

On the other hand if you truly cared about the preservation would that include ensuring that the risk of loss is spread amongst multiple owners or at the very least multiple facilities.  Will more information be learned if there are more individuals with a vested interest doing research?   There is a reason that you keep your IT backup at a secondary location.

 

I'm not sure what is the most correct answer but food for thought.

 

What do you think?

 

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[SC38dls]

Mute point, I can’t afford all the Pierce Arrows out there. Besides Ed wouldn’t sell his anyhow!  
dave s 

[1912Staver]

Chadwick's are a bit of a special case in that there are so few remaining . 2 or is it 3 ? You would do better to look at cars like Mercer Raceabouts. It seems to me there are something aproaching 30 remaining . And one or two people may own a couple but I am sure there are at least 20 -25 owners. The " knowledge " is safely spread out.

Edited December 12, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Complicated issue. 

Many things in life can be compared to waging a war, or playing chess (I don't like playing chess, or wars). One should focus on a plan. One should always figure on fighting on multiple fronts. People that know what they are doing should be consulted if not fully put in charge. Like it or not, politics must be considered.

 

All things considered, the more people that have and enjoy their antique cars, the more that the general population can see them and maybe begin to appreciate them. However, on that point, it doesn't really matter what the antique automobile is.

 

I love large collections, especially if they can be made available for hobbyists to see occasionally. And I love small museums that have only a few cars because many people in the general public can see them there. But I think the best thing is small and active collectors that take different cars out often, both locally and regionally. And next I think is the hobbyist with one car that he drives and gets seen often.

One of the best things is local club activities where a bunch of cars can be seen together by lots of people.

 

Many marques get special attention. I personally know a few collectors with multiple Pierce Arrows. A longtime good friend with seven of them, a few others with three or four. And one fellow with more than twenty in his personal collection. The longtime friend with seven Pierce Arrows? He also has five Stutz automobiles. I have met a few people that specialize in Stutz.

Jack Passey specialized in prewar Lincolns, as did several other people. Jack was also extremely knowledgeable about a hundred other Marques. Many marques have a good number of "experts". Some "experts" are better than others. 

 

The Chadwicks? Although we into early automobiles and history appreciate them for their special place in that history? In the grand scheme of things, it may not really matter whether they are all in one place or not? Not many other people needing to know whether this bolt went in this way or that way? With only a very few survivors, original era photographs can show more about more cars than can be looked at in the world today.

The number I have read/heard is that there may be four surviving Chadwick automobiles, with a definite order of which are the best and most right or not. Personally, I would prefer they were owned by three different and well known collectors. But that is just my opinion.

Edited December 12, 2021 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[3macboys]

27 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Chadwick's are a bit of a special case in that there are so few remaining . 2 or is it 3 ? You would do better to look at cars like Mercer Raceabouts. It seems to me there are something aproaching 30 remaining . And one or two people may own a couple but I am sure there are at least 20 -25 owners. The " knowledge " is safely spread out.

I didn't originally mean to limit the discussion to just Chadwicks, though upon re-reading my original post it does read that way.  But yes for those marques that only a few survive is what I was meant to say.  

[wayne sheldon]

5 minutes ago, 3macboys said:

I didn't originally mean to limit the discussion to just Chadwicks, though upon re-reading my original post it does read that way.  But yes for those marques that only a few survive is what I was meant to say.  

 

And I didn't read it as being limited to Chadwick. Your question has had me wondering how many marques are out there with between three and ten survivors? A "one of one" of course can only be all in one place? A one of two isn't much different.  And once you get into makes that at least a hundred exist? The questions change a bit. So many marques we can only wonder how many exist. My Paige for example. Grimy has one. I have only seen maybe twenty of them myself in over fifty years. Are there a hundred? Five hundred? More than a thousand maybe? And I have never heard of anyone making a specialty out of them. And there are nearly a hundred marques like Paige. 

But what about the makes with even fewer cars. Those of us in the know consider Chadwick special because of its almost unique place as one of the most monstrous and powerful (relative to its time) production cars ever built! What about the Daniels? Certainly special in many ways. Exceptionally stylish and attractive. But not really all that significant historically speaking. There are maybe four times as many surviving Daniels automobiles than there are Chadwick. Biddle would be another that only a small number survive (I know one owner, and know of another). But how many are there?

The Nickel Age club I used to tour with (and hope to do so again!) one time had four Marmon automobiles on a single club tour! That I don't think happens very often. We also had two Wills St Clair on one tour! And please, do NOT let me forget to mention Rickenbacker! I have personally seen four of those over the years, and known of a few others, yet I doubt anything near a hundred of them still exist? I used to have a 1922 Sayers touring car. I know they built about two to maybe three thousand regular automobiles total, but I never ever saw another one.

So very many makes of cars for which relatively few were built, and very few still exist. I wonder how many Locomobiles exist? And how many of those are basically roadworthy?

 

So much to wonder about.

[1937hd45]

For as long as I've been in the hobby it was general knowledge that Bill Pollock owned the only two Chadwick's. If he sold them and they mated and the world now has four that is a good thing. Personally I think old Mom & Dad Chadwick are the best in the family. 

[1935Packard]

If it's my collection, preserved in one collection is best.  If it's not, then spread out!

 

(Seriously, though, I think it depends on the owners and how they approach the marque.)

[tomcarnut]

I like when the cars are driven on tours especially brass. We love to stop at private collections on tours along with historical buildings and museums helping provide some admission revenue. We recently purchased a place where we can have all my eleven AACA eligible cars ranging from 1909 to 1996 in one location. Hope to open up the collection to members of local clubs. We have a great local guy that does it monthly with a cruise in on his property called Horse Power Farm with a building full of muscle cars. He is a great ambassador for the hobby.  In October we visited a substantial race car collection again on a local Southern Ohio Chapter tour. The owner is very happy to let clubs in. On the other hand we have another guy in Cincinnati that has a very substantial classic and special interest car collection that in nearly 40 years in Cincinnati I have never seen them except a few in pictures from Pebble Beach or other shows. He got a bad taste on allowing tours of his collection years ago and refuses to let even local clubs in. 

Sad in my opinion. At least he brings some out of them out to shows or occasionally putting a car on display at a museum. ie Mormon Meteor and Goldfinger Bond Aston Martin DB5. Crazy thing I have never met him despite being his company’s banker for many years and being a customer of his company. 
 

Tom Muth

[alsancle]

Any car that has an owner that’s taken care of it is in a good place, regardless of how many like cars are sitting next to it. Also, out of the millions of collector cars out there, how many would fall into this very very narrow situation?

[8E45E]

As I stated in another thread, there was one collector here with over 70 classic cars and trucks.  He intentionally had them stored in three different locations so not all of them at once could fall victim to an unforeseen event, be it weather-related or the fault of the storage location such as an electrical fire, etc.

 

Craig

[wayne sheldon]

One of the collectors I have known for over forty years now, keeps his collection in several buildings. I don't know how many cars he has? Frankly, I have never asked him. But it must number well over twenty cars, and many of them are incredible cars!

About thirty years ago, one of the buildings he kept some of his cars in was accidentally set on fire by a neighboring business in the other end of the building. The building was a total loss, and he lost five cars in it. Among the more valuable cars was a Mercer touring car, and a one of one 1950s Cadillac Factory custom car show car. Also destroyed was a 1921 American touring car, appropriate to this thread. How many of those have you seen? Out of curiosity, I googled them a few years ago. There are a few of them around. Very few. Also, not terribly significant historically, but still a shame to lose one. The thing they are most famous for is the large cast aluminum eagle that graced the top-front of the radiator. I almost cried the day I heard it was among the five cars he lost to the fire.

 

Just more random thoughts on the subject at hand.

Edited December 12, 2021 by wayne sheldon
Clarify a thought. (see edit history)

[edinmass]

11 hours ago, tomcarnut said:

I like when the cars are driven on tours especially brass. We love to stop at private collections on tours along with historical buildings and museums helping provide some admission revenue. We recently purchased a place where we can have all my eleven AACA eligible cars ranging from 1909 to 1996 in one location. Hope to open up the collection to members of local clubs. We have a great local guy that does it monthly with a cruise in on his property called Horse Power Farm with a building full of muscle cars. He is a great ambassador for the hobby.  In October we visited a substantial race car collection again on a local Southern Ohio Chapter tour. The owner is very happy to let clubs in. On the other hand we have another guy in Cincinnati that has a very substantial classic and special interest car collection that in nearly 40 years in Cincinnati I have never seen them except a few in pictures from Pebble Beach or other shows. He got a bad taste on allowing tours of his collection years ago and refuses to let even local clubs in. 

Sad in my opinion. At least he brings some out of them out to shows or occasionally putting a car on display at a museum. ie Mormon Meteor and Goldfinger Bond Aston Martin DB5. Crazy thing I have never met him despite being his company’s banker for many years and being a customer of his company. 
 

Tom Muth

 

Tom, It's safe to say he is an anomaly in collecting. That said, I have had a chance to talk to him one on one, and he is "ok" in my book. Super successful people can and do have strange habits and their lives tend to be "out of the box". Some people are hard to define....he is one of them. 

 

 

[edinmass]

Its interesting how people define rare. I look at a Pierce Arrow, and it seems commonplace to me.....after looking at them for well over fifty years. We bought three Pierce cars in the last few weeks, and expect to buy two more. All of them will get cut up for parts.......all are way beyond practical restoration. Is it a loss that some cars go away, to keep a few dozen others on the road? At the Palm Beach Concours today, this under educated imbecile with a trust fund was causing problems with his F-50. He thought it was the only car in the world. He kept talking about the serial number and it’s value. He didn’t like my comment that any idiot with a check book can have as many of them as they can pay for. I suggested he try and buy something unique. It didn’t get through. 

[58L-Y8]

Ed:

 

There are legions of car guys who wouldn't recognize a truly rare car even if it just drove over them.  More beyond number who consider anything hideously expensive they can write a check for to be rare...even if the factory is still producing more of them at that very minute.  Self-delusion is a great thing if one can make it work for oneself.  The type can be encountered anywhere from the Concours to the cruise night.

 

To the original subject, attrition is a relentless, indiscriminate process that touches all things.  Human efforts only try to forestall the inevitable. 

 

Steve

[Buffalowed Bill]

I mention this several times a year, so go ahead and shoot the messenger, but please pay attention to the message. If a seldom seen car becomes an icon in the show car world, it has the ability to educate an influence people's thinking every time the car is shown. However most cars never reach that level of appreciation and impact. An alternative or addenda to the show circuit is to put the car in a museum setting where it can been seen my regular audiences. Sharing is a big part of what we do in the hobby. Finding the best way to share should be the goal of every car owner.

 

For all the rest of the seldom seem cars or models, their impact is mostly limited to local displays and tours. What that means is that most people will never have the chance to see them. There are plenty of tour cars out there, some going begging because there are simply not enough people interested.

 

On several occasions I had the chance to visit the Hostettler Hudson collection in Shipshewana Ind. In my sixty years in the hobby, I saw cars that I had never seen before. I was taken back by the styling, beauty and uniqueness of what I saw. The collection is no more, broken up. I feel it's a great loss that I will never see these cars again. The break up of the collection was a tragedy. 

[edinmass]

One of my favorite things in the hobby is walking into a garage of collection and seeing something that is “new” to me. After all these years, they tend to be the “middle priced” cars..........all of the big horsepower stuff is seen regularly. The 1916-1928 era of mid priced off brand cars is really a unique spot in the hobby. Sadly we rarely see these fine built but unusual cars at shows or on tour.

Edited December 13, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

If there are just 3 cars there could be 3 caretakers who all are friends, a trust to put the 3 cars in that would address who gets what if something happens to any of the caretakers and stored in 3 separate facilities to avoid the hand grenade effect- one disaster gets them all.  Lastly- insure the hell out of them.  I would still vote for running and driving them to keep them healthy.

[Brass is Best]

Cars belong with whoever wants to purchase them and take care of them. Weather it is one or one hundred. 

[1937hd45]

19 hours ago, edinmass said:

 At the Palm Beach Concours today, this under educated imbecile with a trust fund was causing problems with his F-50. He thought it was the only car in the world. He kept talking about the serial number and it’s value. He didn’t like my comment that any idiot with a check book can have as many of them as they can pay for. I suggested he try and buy something unique. It didn’t get through. 

Four the record it is nice to have the original engine in the chassis it left the factory with in a prewar car. Is there one person that we can credit with inventing the "Matching Numbers" obsession? I've always thought it was a way to add value to mass produced Detroit iron, and make that one in 150,634 produced somehow different. 

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Four the record it is nice to have the original engine in the chassis it left the factory with in a prewar car. Is there one person that we can credit with inventing the "Matching Numbers" obsession? I've always thought it was a way to add value to mass produced Detroit iron, and make that one in 150,634 produced somehow different. 

When did the US industry start making card with matching numbers? By that I mean where the last three digits of the engine number are the same as the serial number. I find it weird that my 1965 Pontiac, which has a serial number inside the first thousand as it was built in the first week of production (maybe even the first day?), has an engine which is three numbers away from the serial number.

 

The other kind of matching numbers is where the original engine number is known, either from factory records where they exist, or from the original registration document, or from the dealer sales records. I am fortunate that the second two apply to my Studebaker and from that I know that the engine in it now is not the one it left the factory with.

 

[nzcarnerd]

On the subject of the original question there have been several highly publicised fires in large collections which have taken out 'only known survivor' vehicles. Just a few examples are the von Raffay collection in Germany in 2015, the National Motorcycle Museum in England. and the motorcycle collection on the mountain top in Europe somewhere. Even private collections lost in forest fires have likely taken out some 'unique' vehicles.  

 

Buffalowed Bill in a comment above bemoaned the breaking up of a Hudson collection but I guess but I guess we as humans have a finite life where as cars can last much longer, even if in different hands.

 

To quote 58L-Y8 in another comment above - "To the original subject, attrition is a relentless, indiscriminate process that touches all things.  Human efforts only try to forestall the inevitable." Very true.

 

I know a local collector who currently has his collection in three locations but has apparently purchased a large commercial building to keep his collection in, and possibly open it for display. I hope his fire protection is good. He has some relatively rare stuff but possibly not very many which are the only known survivor.

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

16 hours ago, edinmass said:

One of my favorite things in the hobby is walking into a garage of collection and seeing something that is “new” to me. After all these years, they tend to be the “middle priced” cars..........all of the big horsepower stuff is seen regularly. The 1916-1928 era of mid priced off brand cars is really a unique spot in the hobby. Sadly we rarely see these fine built but unusual cars at shows or on tour.

Here is a good example of what you are saying. The green car in the back is a 1931 Studebaker President Four Seasons roadster (and a CCCA classic?). Combined with the very similar 1932 models there are more than 100 surviving examples. There may be more if any unrestored ones are counted. The red and white roadster is the lowest price model in the 1931 Studebaker range (it was priced at $895 at the factory vs about $1900 for the President). It seems there may be only about four of them surviving. That car has changed hands since that photo was taken in 2012 and now lives a few minutes away from me.

 

Because there are no surviving production records for pre 1935 Studebakers it is hard to guesstimate how many of any body style were built, but it reasonable to assume that roadsters and cabriolets constituted a small percentage of the total with lower and mid price cars. 

 

I have probably posted these before but out of a total of around 20,000 Third Design Model GE Dictators that Studebaker built in 1928 there were probably less than 1000 cabriolets. (The top doesn't fold so it is really a 'faux cabriolet'). Only two are known to have survived although there may be another couple put away somewhere.  Mine is badged as a Director, is right hand drive, and as its has it golf bag door on the right, it leads me to think they did not do a right hand drive version of the body. It does have the rumble seat steps on the correct side though. As I noted in the previous comment it has a known history - it is one of only two imported to NZ - and I have a copy of its original registration document. It has body number 437 so they built at least that many. The other one in the US was restored to concourse condition but has changed hands and hopefully gets out occasionally. I think as it was found abandoned on an almond orchard it history is unknown.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a good example of a rare mid-price car, a 1929 Graham-Paige 827. One of six built in this style apparently - or is it one of six known survivors? - I think it is in Europe now - 

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:23 PM, wayne sheldon said:

 

And I didn't read it as being limited to Chadwick. Your question has had me wondering how many marques are out there with between three and ten survivors? A "one of one" of course can only be all in one place? A one of two isn't much different.  And once you get into makes that at least a hundred exist? The questions change a bit. So many marques we can only wonder how many exist. My Paige for example. Grimy has one. I have only seen maybe twenty of them myself in over fifty years. Are there a hundred? Five hundred? More than a thousand maybe? And I have never heard of anyone making a specialty out of them. And there are nearly a hundred marques like Paige. 

But what about the makes with even fewer cars. Those of us in the know consider Chadwick special because of its almost unique place as one of the most monstrous and powerful (relative to its time) production cars ever built! What about the Daniels? Certainly special in many ways. Exceptionally stylish and attractive. But not really all that significant historically speaking. There are maybe four times as many surviving Daniels automobiles than there are Chadwick. Biddle would be another that only a small number survive (I know one owner, and know of another). But how many are there?

The Nickel Age club I used to tour with (and hope to do so again!) one time had four Marmon automobiles on a single club tour! That I don't think happens very often. We also had two Wills St Clair on one tour! And please, do NOT let me forget to mention Rickenbacker! I have personally seen four of those over the years, and known of a few others, yet I doubt anything near a hundred of them still exist? I used to have a 1922 Sayers touring car. I know they built about two to maybe three thousand regular automobiles total, but I never ever saw another one.

So very many makes of cars for which relatively few were built, and very few still exist. I wonder how many Locomobiles exist? And how many of those are basically roadworthy?

 

So much to wonder about.

On the subject of Paige, here is what is probably the only one like it. It is a 1922 car but has the braked front axle from a 1924 model. I met the owner about 25 years ago and he 'admitted' it has a five speed gearbox from a Toyota light truck to give it highway cruising ability. This photo is from the 1990s. More recent photos show it with the same size wheels all round. I think those may have been fitted for the big tour - several thousand miles - it did then.

 

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

I own a late 1950's Buckler MK 16 project. Sort of a kit car / sort of a production car. There are only 2 or 3 known to exist at this time. It is the six inch longer wheelbase version of the MK 15. Perhaps 10 or 12 of that model known. MK 15's used Morris Minor power. The MK 16's were built to use the physically larger MG T series engines and later an MGA powerplant. Various bodies were fitted  but many had this one, the Microplas Mistral. At least 4 are here in Canada, 2 MK 15's for sure , my MK 16 and a 4 th one that has not been 100% verified as either a MK 15 or 16. It was  fitted with I.R.S. back in about 1958 and the rear of the frame changed quite a bit, so hard to tell what the wheelbase was before the changes. Plus a couple more in the U.S.

 

 

 

[63RedBrier]

This past spring my wife and I bought a property in central VA.  Two car garage attached to the house, with two other garages, the man cave can hold 2-3 vehicles, the car/pole barn can hold 7 comfortably, more in a pinch!  She found it and I was happy that we can spread the vehicles among three structures for all the reasons stated above.  Our immediate neighbor had a garage fire that jumped to the house, all burned to the ground during a windy afternoon.  Their new garage is FARTHER (further?) from the house!  Be safe!    

[Borough Essex]

A good reminder to all of us to ensure our sheds are fire safe; fire extinguishers, safe storage of chemicals, electrical safety etc etc.

[Buffalowed Bill]

"Here is a good example of what you are saying. The green car in the back is a 1931 Studebaker President Four Seasons roadster (and a CCCA classic?). Combined with the very similar 1932 models there are more than 100 surviving examples. There may be more if any unrestored ones are counted. The red and white roadster is the lowest price model in the 1931 Studebaker range (it was priced at $895 at the factory vs about $1900 for the President). It seems there may be only about four of them surviving. That car has changed hands since that photo was taken in 2012 and now lives a few minutes away from me."

 

I agree with much of what you said, but your numbers don't add up. There are 54 surviving "Four Season Roadsters" and six or or so 1932 President convertibles surviving. I think if you were able to add up all the 1931-31 Presidents, all body styles, it might come to a little less than 100 cars. 

[edinmass]

15 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I own a late 1950's Buckler MK 16 project. Sort of a kit car / sort of a production car. There are only 2 or 3 known to exist at this time. It is the six inch longer wheelbase version of the MK 15. Perhaps 10 or 12 of that model known. MK 15's used Morris Minor power. The MK 16's were built to use the physically larger MG T series engines and later an MGA powerplant. Various bodies were fitted  but many had this one, the Microplas Mistral. At least 4 are here in Canada, 2 MK 15's for sure , my MK 16 and a 4 th one that has not been 100% verified as either a MK 15 or 16. It was  fitted with I.R.S. back in about 1958 and the rear of the frame changed quite a bit, so hard to tell what the wheelbase was before the changes. Plus a couple more in the U.S.

 

 

 

 

Add a few more to your list......there are two or three of them tucked away and not known in the northeast. No idea if they are the long or short version.....they all were bought as a package and never finished. 

[1912Staver]

Good to hear Ed. Are you talking about the body shells ? Or the chassis kits that Buckler built ? Or the full kit with both body and chassis ? The body's were available either direct from the maker , Microplas in the U.K. or Buckler { Reading , England } would supply them already fitted to the chassis kit if the buyer ordered things that way. A British car supply company here in Vancouver brought in several of the body shells that customers could fit to the chassis of their choice. They were also produced for a time under licence in the U.S. by the company that evolved into Fiberfab. But it is thought U.S. production was quite low. 

 Buckler themselves produced something like 500 chassis kits of several different types, and a small number of complete cars . Probably less than 20.

Never sold in large numbers in North America , most Bucklers are in the U.K. and New Zealand.

Edited December 14, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

They were full kits.......family lived near Lime Rock...........they may be later but they were Buckler's........I have never seen one before. They got to the assembled and running stage, but never painted them or got the seats in. They have no interest, but plenty of storage and money.......so they probably will sit another fifty years.....

[1912Staver]

Great that they have survived. Hopefully they will see the light of day sooner than another 50 years . Production of the cars ended in about 1962. Derick Bucklers health took a serious downturn about that time and he sold the company. The new owners concentrated on Bucklers other product line, Go Karts . By about 1965 even Kart production stopped. Bucklers of all types have a very active Club , based in the U.K. but members scattered all over the globe.

[ron hausmann]

All -

    In answer to the original question of this post, there are really two separate and equal answers I think. 
1. For quite rare cars like Kissels, Chalmers, Daniels, Paige, and ones that have perhaps 5-300 survivors, the cars NEED to be concentrated in one or two places in order to assure that they are correct and original restorations. If not, you’ll get hotch-podge restorations which are not true or correct. I’ve seen this with my Kissels. 
2. for “rare” cars where there are hundreds or thousands still around, like pierce, studebaker, Franklin, and such, a broader more diverse spread of collections should be encouraged. 
    I feel this way because there is absolutely no way that restorations can be guaranteed to be correct without reference to other cars. I collect original Kissels and Kissel parts cars, and without those references, my restored cars would not be exact. 
   My humble opinion. Ron Hausmann P.E.

[wayne sheldon]

Very good points Ron H. 

[1912Staver]

I can see the merit in your outlook Ron. And your restorations are top notch. My Staver restoration would be so much easier if I owned one of the other 2 known large model Stavers. But neither are for sale and probably won't be in my lifetime. I probably  couldn't  afford one of the other ones even if one was for sale so I guess it does not matter anyway.

[zepher]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:40 PM, edinmass said:

One of my favorite things in the hobby is walking into a garage of collection and seeing something that is “new” to me. After all these years, they tend to be the “middle priced” cars..........all of the big horsepower stuff is seen regularly. The 1916-1928 era of mid priced off brand cars is really a unique spot in the hobby. Sadly we rarely see these fine built but unusual cars at shows or on tour.

 

I'm still waiting for Rickenbackers to get the respect they deserve. 

And I'll most likely die before that happens. 

[wayne sheldon]

Zepher,

Any solid ideas of how many Rickenbackers do exist? How many basically intact and decent, running or not? How many incomplete and rough? I know the one I saw about fifty years ago belonging to a friend of a friend was one of the largest and rarest of the marque. But all of the ones I have seen have been very interesting cars! The marque has always fascinated me.

[nzcarnerd]

12 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Zepher,

Any solid ideas of how many Rickenbackers do exist? How many basically intact and decent, running or not? How many incomplete and rough? I know the one I saw about fifty years ago belonging to a friend of a friend was one of the largest and rarest of the marque. But all of the ones I have seen have been very interesting cars! The marque has always fascinated me.

I have no idea how many Rickenbackers exist today but there is one right hand drive example in New Zealand. Been here since new as far as I know. The first pic was taken in 1961 and the other in 2015 - 

 

 

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

On 12/14/2021 at 10:17 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

"Here is a good example of what you are saying. The green car in the back is a 1931 Studebaker President Four Seasons roadster (and a CCCA classic?). Combined with the very similar 1932 models there are more than 100 surviving examples. There may be more if any unrestored ones are counted. The red and white roadster is the lowest price model in the 1931 Studebaker range (it was priced at $895 at the factory vs about $1900 for the President). It seems there may be only about four of them surviving. That car has changed hands since that photo was taken in 2012 and now lives a few minutes away from me."

 

I agree with much of what you said, but your numbers don't add up. There are 54 surviving "Four Season Roadsters" and six or or so 1932 President convertibles surviving. I think if you were able to add up all the 1931-31 Presidents, all body styles, it might come to a little less than 100 cars. 

I may have misinterpreted the numbers from what I had heard but it still illustrates how many more of them survive compared with the low price Model 54 six roadster. I have not seen any info re Commander roadster of that year. 

 

The survival rate of the 1933 Speedway Presidents is quite low. Only eight out of 657 built according to this list from Richard Quinn - from nearly 20 years ago. I wonder if any more have turned up.

 

 

 

I suspect the Studebaker truck survival rate is equally low - like this 1931 in the Richardson collection - 

 

 

[zepher]

18 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Zepher,

Any solid ideas of how many Rickenbackers do exist? How many basically intact and decent, running or not? How many incomplete and rough? I know the one I saw about fifty years ago belonging to a friend of a friend was one of the largest and rarest of the marque. But all of the ones I have seen have been very interesting cars! The marque has always fascinated me.

 

The Rickenbacker Car Club has about 35 cars listed in the registry but there are sure to be cars out there the club doesn't know about but even those stragglers wouldn't increase the numbers all that much.

We have a parts car that is not listed in the registry. Car is fairly complete except all the wood is gone so it would definitely be an upside down project to put it back together.

Capt. Eddie's entire life story is utterly fascinating when you really start to look into it.

How many cars out there have a direct connection to a man that was awarded the Medal of Honor?

 

http://www.rickenbackermotors.com/index.html