Would you go electric?

[TerryB]

Some things are still true… What was a selling point in 1909 still applies in many ways to the average daily commuter today. Simplicity and reliability.  The car as an appliance crowd will gravitate to what ever best suits their needs and battery powered electric cars, bicycles, chain saws, lawn mowers and the like are becoming quite popular.  I’ve seen ads for battery electric snow throwers too which seems odd considering the discussions on battery degradation in cold weather.  The snow thrower that won’t start on the day you need it is a common site here as most snow storms are more of a nuisance and don’t require a snow thrower to clear.  

 

[Bleach]

35 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Where do you live that you might have to flee more than 600 miles? If our electric car's 300 mile range isn't enough to save our asses from whatever disaster is happening, I think finding more electricity will be the least of our worries.

 

Sounds like you have a solution in search of a problem.

I didn't specifically look for a 600 mile range vehicle. It just came that way. In these times it's good to know I have some solutions before needing them. It would be nice if I never need some of these solutions.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Bleach (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

22 minutes ago, Bleach said:

I keep extra fuel at home and I have more than one car to siphon fuel from if the situation gets more serious. I also have a diesel that gives me more than a 600 mile range.

 

As Bleach noted, and I agree, I have the same options. Tropical storms can, and have threatened my area. There are times when evacuation is a smart decision, and being prepared to both travel, and to have fuel upon return may be critical. You've seen the news reports of folks waiting hours with a 5 gallon can for their turn at a gas station, also running on generators, which has also just run out of fuel. My kids and I can each be able to maintain to the best of our potential. Electric may be the wave of the future, but isn't my personal preference for every possibility. My diesel Excursion can optimally make better than 900 miles on a topped-off tank - well into safer territory and way beyond the area of likely outage or resupply.

 

I also keep extra fuel for gasoline powered generators, as well as having a separate tri-fuel (Natural Gas / Bottled Gas / Gasoline) generator.

My understanding is that an electric vehicle, if not already fully charged, may take an extensive time to reach a safe distance charge. With many, perhaps tens of thousands of users needing to recharge, and the scarcity of locations, I don't want to be at the end of the line, or have to learn about them on the 6:00 news because they didn't, or couldn't "Git Outa' Dodge".

 

Any area can be hit with a power outage:

     Yes, the Gulf Coast and Eastern Seaboard are susceptible to tropical storms 

     The Northeast, Midwest, Upper Midwest, and more have blizzards and ice storms with tree branches taking out power lines and highways

     The Midwest and Tornado Alley have essentially minimal warning, and can lose everything in seconds to tornados

     The West Coast continues to deal with forest fires and flash floods

 

Electric has its place, but for the reasonably near term it is not my preferred option.

 

[Bleach]

We've been having some severe winds today in the Portland OR area so we're bracing for the possibility of losing power. We often do.

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, Bleach said:

What happens if you have a power outage?

 

Then you don't fill your car with gasoline....🤣

 

Wait until the power comes back on.

[1937hd45]

23 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

Then you don't fill your car with gasoline....🤣

 

Wait until the power comes back on.

We have a station with a generator so the guys with plow trucks can fuel 24/7

[auburnseeker]

10 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

Then you don't fill your car with gasoline....🤣

 

Wait until the power comes back on.

I keep several 5 gallon cans of gas and diesel in the garage.  No sense in filling up just one when you go to the gas station.  I can instantly fill any piece of equipment anywhere within a couple of minutes.  Until they make drop in and out (quick change) battery packs for equipment then there is still going to be a huge hole that electric can't fill.   Most equipment and old cars have gas or fuel in them I could syphon out in an emergency as well if no other option. 

 

I was weed eating my and the 80 year old neighbors trails (they are the width of roads and I bet 3/4 of a mile or more)  a couple of days ago and weed ate for 3 hours straight one day and 5 hours the next.  How many batteries would I have needed to do that? Only breaks were for refueling,  which literally takes a minute and to replace the string. 

 

I was looking at replacing my 80 foot boom lift with a smaller 50 foot or less electric boom lift but they have an onboard generator to charge the batteries if out in the field and they go down.  Only reason for looking into electric was we use it for painting around the property and really don't need to have an engine running steady when you are painting a wall with a brush and the wife is scared of my big diesel monster lift but had no problem using the electric scissor lift at my old shop. 

[TerryB]

When I became paralyzed and my wife had to do all the household tasks I did, one thing that went was the gas string trimmer. We do not have an estate that requires hours of weed chopping.  Picked up a lightweight electric string trimmer at Sears that came with two batteries.  One battery is sufficient for most trimming, sometimes she needs to use the second to finish but not often.  No gas to mix or store and it always starts even after sitting all winter.  If the gas trimmer works for you, fine, but it’s not the answer for everyone. Locally the biggest contractor supplier for hand tools in my area has converted a large display area to battery powered tools.  It’s getting a lot harder to find corded tools anywhere these days. Paul B Zimmerman hardware in Ephrata PA.  Locals call it PaulB.

[MarkV]

I’ve been reading this thread and there seems to be a lack of understanding as to the technology available and the fact this is not the 70s anymore,  here are my thoughts:

1. Gas will be here for the next 50-100 years. Amounts will be available for various tools and vehicles. In a few decades it maybe more limited but available.

2. Most vintage cars will not have a conversion kit and will remain gas.

3. Electric vehicles and plug in hybrid are great. These are not the citi cars of old. 
4. I own a Chevrolet Volt which has excellent pick up and go and is the best of both worlds, both a plug in and a hybrid with a small gas tank. When it switches from battery to gas there is no change in performance.

5. What if the power is out? Well hate to break it to you but this isnt the old days at the Texaco with a manual pump. All stations are electrical and computerized so you are doomed either way! 
6. solar power- a year and a half ago I had 31 solar panels installed on my roof (the max legally allowed on my roof based on usage). They have a 30 year warranty against everything. I paid 29k this also included a new main panel and sub panel and a charging station for my car. The first year alone I saved 5k on electric bills (I have no bill and in fact they owed me $1 k at the end of the year!) I also received the 30% tax credit. After year 4.5 it will pay for itself and the rest of the 25 years I’ll be enjoying no bill! Can you imagine what electric will cost 20 years from now? Mine will still be 0
7. the second a car can be charged from 0 to full in 10 min or under its game over for gas. 
8. ‘Clean energy’ may require unclean elements but at least they are being put out in one location rather than every tail pipe 

[alsancle]

How is this thread cool but the one discussing gas prices is not? 

[1937hd45]

Rhetorical questions will have a short life span too.

[Peter Gariepy]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

How is this thread cool but the one discussing gas prices is not? 

 

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Rhetorical questions will have a short life span too.

 

Simple. It's not partisan.

[Peter Gariepy]

Its foreign to me to plan for a worse-case scenario thats never happened. I've lived my entire 60 years without the need for an at home fuel tank in case gas is scarce.  Nor have I had an electrical outage long enough to worry about. I do acknowledge the need for those in more remote areas.

 

When Texas had all of their electric grid problems, Tesla owners were able to power their homes from their car to make up for the loss in grid electricity. (Source).  Tesla also sells a power wall to power your home in case of a grid failure.  https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

 

FYI: Solar panels are more popular in rural homes than urban. 

 

[alsancle]

25 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

 

Simple. It's not partisan.

 

It is partisan, you just happen to agree with it.

[Max4Me]

I can imagine a similar conversation going on 100 years ago: 

 

"Yep, them new-fangled auto mobiles are quaint, but whatcha gonna do when you cain't find none that there gasoline? I'll keep ol' Bessie 'cuz I kin always find a nice meadow to feed her in."

 

Let's face it, both sides are right. E-vehicles are in their infancy and there are issues that need to be (and will be) solved. But like it or not, they (or something like them) are the future. For now, I am happy with my ICE vehicles but that doesn't mean there's not an e-vehicle somewhere in my future.

 

One of the things I have enjoyed about this forum is that no matter what you own/drive, antique, classic, modern; Ford, Chevy, Dodge, whatever, people seem happy to help each other out (I experienced that when I had an issue with my antique car). So, disagree with the other side, but recognize it's their choice.

[1937hd45]

Some number cruncher will run the number of horses in 1921 and the number we have today 2021. 

[Max4Me]

For what it's worth, here you go:

 

U.S. only   (horses)

1920             25,199,552                SOURCE:   http://www.cowboyway.com/What/HorsePopulation.htm         

2021               7,200,000 (apprx)  SOURCE:   https://petpedia.co/horse-statistics/#counts over 7.2 million horses

 

U.S. only (cars & trucks)           

1920             7.5 million   SOURCE: https://www.railsandtrails.com/AutoFacts/

2021         286.9 million  SOURCE: https://financesonline.com/number-of-cars-in-the-us/

                  (registred)

 

FWIW:  In 1900, 38% of US automobiles, 33,842 cars, were powered by electricity (40% were powered by steam, and 22% by gasoline).  SOURCE: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/25/38-percent-american-cars-electric-1900/

Edited October 26, 2021 by Max4Me (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

It is partisan, you just happen to agree with it.

Feel free to report it then.

 

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

It is partisan, you just happen to agree with it.

No! Whether to go electric is an economic decision based on the person's usage. Same as which vehicle to buy has been for 120 years.

[1937hd45]

29 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

No! Whether to go electric is an economic decision based on the person's usage. Same as which vehicle to buy has been for 120 years.

Electric car and a full face tattoo, two things I don't plan on having.

 

[f.f.jones]

Nothing political here...just some recent research:

WHICH IS MORE EXPENSIVE ? Charging an EV or fueling an IC car...

Gas prices mentioned are a little out of date for some of us, but still an interesting read.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/which-is-more-expensive-charging-an-electric-vehicle-or-fueling-a-car-with-gas/ar-AAPRY3d?ocid=mailsignout

[1937hd45]

Thank you Mr. Jones, do you know if that is copper wire that runs from the charger to the EV? Does America's Crack Head population know the current scrap value of it? 

[MarkV]

13 hours ago, f.f.jones said:

Nothing political here...just some recent research:

WHICH IS MORE EXPENSIVE ? Charging an EV or fueling an IC car...

Gas prices mentioned are a little out of date for some of us, but still an interesting read.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/which-is-more-expensive-charging-an-electric-vehicle-or-fueling-a-car-with-gas/ar-AAPRY3d?ocid=mailsignout

that article is full of falsehoods $1600 for an electrician to install a level two? All you need is a 50 amp 220 run to wherever hardly $1600. 

 

in my 4 years of owning the volt and driving 70k miles I’ve only needed one oil change, charging is free, and the only cost I had was the wall charger (which the volt also came with a 120volt)

 

yes I have solar panels but guess what?  By year 4 they will be fully paid for with all electricity bills I’ve saved. 5k in the first year alone. They are warrantied to 30 years by Panasonic. 

[Matt Harwood]

(This isn't our car, but ours is the exact same color and configuration)

 

Now that we've had our electric car for a few months, we're able to compare our electric bills from last year. We have also been able to get a better idea of what our average monthly mileage is. Since we got it we've put about 5400 miles on it, which is about 730 miles/month average. Our electric bill has gone up between $31 and $42 for those complete months where we've had the car and can compare to the previous year. Of course, it was all summertime, so running the house A/C has been a factor (this year was pretty hot), but I'm OK saying it costs us an average of $35/month to feed the electric car while driving 700 or so miles. I think that's pretty good, particularly considering we have one of the bigger, heavier, faster electric cars you can buy. It probably isn't an efficient one!

 

I liken our electric car to a high-performance luxury SUV that gets mediocre gas mileage but every time I park it in my garage, the gas tank magically fills itself. It's also scary fast (it sucked the headlights out of a Hellcat-powered Jeep Grand Cherokee on the highway last Saturday on the way home from dinner), completely silent, and drives pretty much like a regular car. It does some nice things, like having instant-on heat and A/C that don't require the "engine" to be running (you don't even need to be in the car, you can turn it on with your phone). It stops using mostly motor regeneration, so it recharges itself while we drive (I often challenge myself to arrive with as much range remaining as when I left) and the brake pads will probably last forever. It can be configured to power our house if needed, but I don't have it set up to do that. It also doesn't need much maintenance: no transmission, no cooling system, no fuel system, no exhaust system, no oil changes, no transmission service, no replacing coolant every few years, no emissions tests, no filters, etc. In short, I was skeptical of an electric car but given how we use it (modest commutes and no long vacation drives) it's turned out to be a great solution.

 

And did I mention how insanely fast it is?

 

I also have the ability to install the 50-amp service myself, so that didn't cost me anything but a receptacle and some wire, maybe $100 and an afternoon of work. But I acknowledge that having a professional do it would probably be $500-800.

 

Are electric cars the solution to all driving needs? Of course not, and both sides making their arguments for and against are often disingenuous. Are they better than internal combustion vehicles? Not necessarily, but in some cases yes, some cases no. I'll admit I prefer driving my internally combusted daily driver, which is also smooth, quiet, and powerful. Not sure whether I prefer it because it's powered by gas or because I just like how it drives, but I prefer it. But I don't hate electric cars on principle and I'm certainly not threatened by them as many guys here seem to be. Nobody's going to take away the gas--do you think all these oil companies are just going to quietly go into the night? That we're somehow going to get everyone to scrap their old cars and replace them with new cars? Hell, just look how long it took to phase out the lead in the '70s! This is 20x as monumental a challenge.

 

Everyone acknowledges that there are myriad problems to solve before electric cars are a complete solution, and most experts admit that they may not ever be a 100% solution. I think mandates will get pushed back because the feasibility and market acceptance won't happen as quickly as expected. But I also think market demand is only going to go up and the automakers are planning for it. That, in turn, will push technology to new frontiers. That can only be good news for all of us. Remember: as demand for gas goes down, so does the price--we saw that last year during the pandemic. It's simple supply and demand economics and we old car guys should only be happy about that.

 

Right now, I liken electric cars to where internal combustion cars were in, say, 1920. Enough of them around that there's a growing industry to prop them up, but there certainly weren't gas stations on every corner nor highways to drive on or thousands of mechanics to work on them. There were still plenty of skeptics who preferred their horses and buggies. But progress comes as it inevitably does, driven by market forces. There's a lot of money being thrown at electric cars right now and make no mistake, they WILL get a lot better in short order. The things people point to as liabilities will become less so and there will be new solutions that don't exist yet. It's just as impossible for us to predict what will happen as it was for a farmer in 1920 to guess that someday there would be self-driving combines that work through this thing called "the internet" using satellites to navigate.

 

Change will happen, that's the only thing that's 100% certain.

[1912Staver]

Matt, I like your way at looking at EV's. But the fact remains they are still generally  a very expensive vehicle that may or may not make all that much difference in the Global Climate Change situation.  The main reason to even be thinking about them. Owners of the most popular ones seem to me to be more concerned with how fast they are { that energy has to come from somewhere } rather than how green they are. Status symbol / virtue signaling device or actually part of the solution ?

  I am anything but a Climate Change denier.

But I do belive that the natural climate change cycle probably has a lot more to do with what the world is currently seeing than what the people who want to sell us a whole bunch of expensive, new things are telling us. 

 

[mike6024]

If my Toyota gets 28 mpg and I were to drive 700 miles that would be 25 gallons of fuel. And at $4.50 per gallon that is $112. More than the $40 worth of electricity for the Audi.

[auburnseeker]

12 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

If my Toyota gets 28 mpg and I were to drive 700 miles that would be 25 gallons of fuel. And at $4.50 per gallon that is $112. More than the $40 worth of electricity for the Audi.

Wait until the price of electricity starts to climb, then compare all the new green sources aren't going to be free to produce or install, much less the upgrades that will be needed on the whole system. Once all those catch up,  then a true comparison can be done. 

[Peter Gariepy]

36 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

Wait until the price of electricity starts to climb, then compare all the new green sources aren't going to be free to produce or install, much less the upgrades that will be needed on the whole system. Once all those catch up,  then a true comparison can be done. 

 

Yes, the cost of electricity will rise (source). But so will gasoline.  (source) 

 

The cost to power an EV is half what it costs to power a ICE.  (source, source)

 

Transitioning from ICE to EV is not going to happen overnight.  It's going to take 25 years to even get to 50% of cars on the road being EV, and ICE will always have a place. (source, source)  The transition to EV will most certainly create additional demands on the electric grid, but it will be gradual.

 

A few EV neigh-sayers will have no impact on this fact: the auto industry is going full throttle converting from ICE to EV.

It's just a matter of time.

 

 

[auburnseeker]

Of course gas will rise when policies put in effect directly effect the supply.  Don't worry once they get the majority electric they will start tightening the screws but it will be too late as there won't be an alternative.  Competition is healthy.  Once you can only get one particular type of something then the free market is no longer in control.  Now jack electric prices.  No alternative,  you will have to pay it or just go without because that's what we are being told we have to learn to do.  

I'm not against electrics and feel there is a place for them.  To force us all to convert to electric on some feel good quest with dates randomly picked out of the sky,  not backed by hard data if it's even fees able is not the way to sell it to anyone reluctant in converting. Very similar to something else I'm seeing somewhere  but I can't quite put my finger on it. 

[Peter Gariepy]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

But I do belive that the natural climate change cycle probably has a lot more to do with what the world is currently seeing than what the people who want to sell us a whole bunch of expensive, new things are telling us. 

 

The scientific community doesn't agree with you.  

 

There is a strong scientific consensus that the Earth is warming and that this warming is mainly caused by human activities.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change

 

Don't like Wikipedia or its extensive list of sources?  Great... he's a few other sources.

• NASA:  https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
• US Government:  https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/isnt-there-lot-disagreement-among-climate-scientists-about-global-warming
• Union of Concerned Scientists: https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/global-warming-happening-and-humans-are-primary-cause
• Skeptical Scientists:  https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-advanced.htm
• Lots more, just ask.

 

[mike6024]

1 + 1 = 2 ( source )  

 

[Peter Gariepy]

3 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

1 + 1 = 2 ( source )  

 

 

So we agree, math, science, and the experts in those fields are the right way to determine the facts.  (not gut). (source)

[trimacar]

10 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

So we agree, math, science, and the experts in those fields are the right way to determine the facts.  (not gut). (source)

Well, the facts are that the earth’s temperature has risen .14 degrees F every decade since 1880.  The last four decades have shown a rise about twice that.

 

What we don’t know is, has this been going on since the last ice age?  Agreed, it seems to be accelerating. But, is it new, or just the way nature works?  

 

I have a friend who worked for government, he said that a project would start, they’d be told the end result, now go out and prove it.  Sometimes I fear scientists do the same, depending on where the money is coming from and what desired answer is requested. “OK, climate change is real, go prove it” kind of direction.

 

Also, no one wants to discuss the REAL problem, which is over population of the world.  That drives a lot of changes….

 

I believe that, even given that climate change is real, attention to it is distracting us from some other, much more immediate problems that need to be fixed.

 

 

[Peter Gariepy]

7 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

....once they get the majority electric they will start tightening the screws but it will be too late as there won't be an alternative.  Competition is healthy.  Once you can only get one particular type of something then the free market is no longer in control.  Now jack electric prices.  No alternative,  you will have to pay it or just go without because that's what we are being told we have to learn to do.  

 

Local electric companies are heavily regulated as they typically have a monopoly. However, there is an alternative... solar.

[Brass is Best]

It would be interesting to know who is funding the "scientists" and their political affiliations. After all for years "scientists" said cigarettes were safe.

 

[John348]

I am ready for an electric car, at least for my wife's vehicle. I bought this one new 7 years ago, only has 45,000 miles and the extended warranty is about to run out, and when the warranty is up out the door they go!  I have just gotten tired sitting around the Cadillac dealer waiting for service and a NYS Emissions Inspection. They have no more loaners, they pick the car up drop off the loaner and return your car back pick up the loaner, no more. It is not about cost, it is about convenience. I never had leased a vehicle but the next one will be a lease, and most likely it will be another Cadillac 

[John348]

10 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

It would be interesting to know who is funding the "scientists" and their political affiliations. After all for years "scientists" said cigarettes were safe.

 

 

Only the bad ones 

[Peter Gariepy]

15 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

It would be interesting to know who is funding the "scientists" and their political affiliations. After all for years "scientists" said cigarettes were safe.

 

 

With 97% of the scientists in agreement, you'd think they are across a wide range of political views.  Any statement to the contrary opens a can of worms.

 

In the case of NASA and the US Government scientists, there is no request of political affiliation as part of the hiring process. As a matter of fact, it's even illegal to ask.

[Brass is Best]

17 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

With 97% of the scientists in agreement, you'd think they are across a wide range of political views.  Any statement to the contrary opens a can of worms.

 

In the case of NASA and the US Government scientists, there is no request of political affiliation as part of the hiring process. As a matter of fact, it's even illegal to ask.

 

Good to know. We all know that government agencies always follow the rules.

[1912Staver]

52 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

Local electric companies are heavily regulated as they typically have a monopoly. However, there is an alternative... solar.

 

Unfortunately I live in Raincouver.  4 months of relatively hot, dry weather { Pacific coast fires } 8 months of clouds , cool , gray days, steady drizzle with the odd downpour for variety. Solar would have a very , very long, break even period.

 If we could ever heat homes and power cars on water I would have it made.

It's taken 10 + years also 16 Billion $ and counting to build our new dam. Way up North, mainly for the L.N.G. industry.  { Site C } yet another tax payer sinkhole.https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/site-c-announcement-friday-1.5928719

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)