How much is too much?

[kblawrence67]

I’m looking at a 69 to buy, but it has 114k miles on it.  How many miles before a rebuild is in order?

[gungeey]

It's hard to say, nless it's the original owner who proclaims it's never been unbolted or there's extensive paper trail verifying the car and engine history.

 

It's a 50 year old car, does it pull well, any excessive leaks or unusual noises, starts up well etc?

 

Can you or can you have someone to a compression check, spark plug condition?

 

I would be more concerned with recent major engine work than how long it potentially could continue being reliable.

 

You could get 200 miles from it if you beat on it or another 50-60k if you drive it easy. No crystal ball.

 

 

[Jim Cannon]

I'd say, when pricing what you are willing to pay for the car, assume you will be rebuilding the engine and transmission. You probably will be.

 

 

[kblawrence67]

Assuming the body and interior are in terrific shape, and there isn’t anything wrong with the car, is $12k reasonable? Just based on typical market value.

I'm not even sure what a rebuild costs.

Edited July 5, 2021 by kblawrence67 (see edit history)

[awk409ak]

My experience is paint and body work is expensive.  Just paint can be 15K if not more and then add for body work.  You can hit 20K-25K easy.

 

Art

 

 

[kblawrence67]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

I think I’m going to hold off.  What I really want is a blue 68’ that’s just ready to drive, but saw the 69’ and got a little liquored up at the thought of buying the 69'.

Edited July 5, 2021 by kblawrence67
reads better (see edit history)

[Pat Curran]

5 hours ago, kblawrence67 said:

Thanks for the feedback, all.

I think I’m going to hold off.  What I really want is a blue 68’ that’s just ready to drive, but saw the 69’ and got a little liquored on the thought of buying that.

Are you talking about the 69 that is on BaT right now?

[kblawrence67]

No, sir.  This is something different.

[Hazdaz]

7 hours ago, awk409ak said:

...Just paint can be 15K if not more...

 

What kind of diamond-encrusted paint are you putting on your cars?!  Wow.  I'm not saying paint can't cost that much because there are some insane paint jobs out there, but I think you are WAY over budgeting there. 

 

I'd like to hear what other people think.  Am I wrong in thinking that's about 10x too much???

[telriv]

    10 times too much????  What dream world are you coming from???

Most times, inverably, some body work needs to be done. So that will add to the cost.  IF a Maco job is done you can get the job done for very little $$$$ outlay & maybe have it last a few yrs. before the paint starts to crack, peel, show rust bubbles, etc. & a variety of other things too numerous to mention. IF you don't do most of the prep yourself they will paint EVERYTHING including bird crap, dirt etc.  You get what you pay for.

    A quality job not ONLY includes the paint, primers & other coatings & supplies that a quality job requires. A quality job doesn't come cheap as lots of time is spent on prep, sanding, blocking, etc.  Quality paint & coatings could cost 5K or more.

    One time go out into the world & ask. Be ready for a shock.

 

Tom T.

[The 55er]

You're paying mostly for the labor involved & professional prep work, not for the paint materials themselves. You can't get ANY kind of a paint job today for $1500 unless you do it all yourself. 15K is definitely not out of line from a good shop and prices are increasing all the time.

[Hazdaz]

1 hour ago, telriv said:

    10 times too much????  What dream world are you coming from???

Most times, inverably, some body work needs to be done. So that will add to the cost.  IF a Maco job is done you can get the job done for very little $$$$ outlay & maybe have it last a few yrs. before the paint starts to crack, peel, show rust bubbles, etc. & a variety of other things too numerous to mention. IF you don't do most of the prep yourself they will paint EVERYTHING including bird crap, dirt etc.  You get what you pay for.

    A quality job not ONLY includes the paint, primers & other coatings & supplies that a quality job requires. A quality job doesn't come cheap as lots of time is spent on prep, sanding, blocking, etc.  Quality paint & coatings could cost 5K or more.

    One time go out into the world & ask. Be ready for a shock.

 

Tom T.

He wasn't even including bodywork in this post.  He was saying $15k for JUST the paintwork. 

And your mention of $5k is way, way less than the 15k he said. 

 

 

[EmTee]

100K on a '69 Buick wouldn't scare me if the rest of the car shows normal or better-than-normal care.  On the other hand, "driven hard and put away wet" could mean a rebuild in the near future.  If you're serious about the car it would be best to have a leakdown test done.  Failing that, a compression test.  At a minimum, I'd want to pull a few spark plugs to see how they look if the engine doesn't run smoothly or pull with authority when the Q-jet secondaries open...

[60FlatTop]

If I see something I want and have money on hand I will pay all it takes to buy it without regard for market prices or opinions. The best cars I have owned are the ones I was told I paid too much for.

 

I act fast because many cars have not been there after I monkeyed around deciding.

 

A lot of buyers don't realize that even a car that doesn't meet their expectation will not be a total loss. If you ventured into the purchase you saw value and in the worst case a significant percentage can be recovered.

 

I have bought cars I wasn't happy with, cleaned them up, made a much better sales presentation, and moved the on with a little profit. Rarely have I lost money on a collector car, a daily driver, sure.

 

When buying cars online, sight unseen, became common about 20 years ago I allowed that I could lose about $3500 on a bad deal. That became my risk factor. Once established I never realized the allowable loss. Remember it is a hobby.

[PWB]

PPG BLACK paint is very inexpensive.

Only cost me a few hundred bucks to repaint my big Pontiac 2 years ago.

[RivNut]

Black is the absence of color. White is the presence of all colors of the spectrum. Didn't we all learn that in 7th grade science.   Is there is no pigment, it shouldn't be expensive to produce.

[EmTee]

Black contains carbon, white uses titanium.

[awk409ak]

Hey, let me clarify myself.  

Sure you can get it done for less, a lot less.  You get what you pay for, and you can paint it your self to save $$$$.  I was speaking of a show quality 2 stage paint with general prep work or even stripping(not major body work) and the removal of all trim, hood and truck lid, maybe front fenders.  Then there is the finishing touches, putting it back together and the color sand/buffing.  There is a lot of work to do a Quality Job.  Just trying to be up front about cost.  Paint/body work is not cheap these days, specially from high quality shop.

 

Art

Edited July 6, 2021 by awk409ak (see edit history)

[60s GM Fan]

If you can paint it yourself you'll save money.  To give you an example of what a shop would cost you I had several quotes for the 1937 LaSalle I used to own.  All were around the 20-30k range.

[kblawrence67]

I know what you mean.  😂

[Turbinator]

$15K for a quality paint job is a lot of money to me. Whereas $4500 for 50 plus year old musical instrument is no big deal. Someone said this is a hobby. In some arenas gents “doll” their car up so much they don’t drive them. Cars not driven and gas/oil not put in the car and trailered to shows are pieces of folk art. Enjoy looking at how a person dresses up an automobile for the viewing enjoyment.

[Turbinator]

On 7/5/2021 at 10:21 AM, 60FlatTop said:

allowed that I could lose about $3500 on a bad deal

Well written and accurate assessment of spending on a hobby

[NC1968Riviera]

On 7/4/2021 at 11:37 AM, kblawrence67 said:

Thanks for the feedback, all.

I think I’m going to hold off.  What I really want is a blue 68’ that’s just ready to drive, but saw the 69’ and got a little liquored up at the thought of buying the 69'.

How much do you want to spend? 

[J3Studio]

On 7/4/2021 at 10:55 AM, Jim Cannon said:

I'd say, when pricing what you are willing to pay for the car, assume you will be rebuilding the engine and transmission. You probably will be.

 

That would be correct—you may get lucky, but you shouldn't assume you will get lucky.

[RivNut]

Expect the unexpected!

[powerage]

25K easy on a quality paint job on a 50 plus year old car. Easy

[60s GM Fan]

While this doesn't address your issue I think the best thing to do when purchasing a classic is to ensure that the cosmetics are in decent shape.  Mechanical can still be done at a fair price but when it comes to paint....wow.  I've turned down quite a few nice cars because the paint was failing.

[60FlatTop]

This may be a good point to mention the benefit of dividing your time and money between mechanical and cosmetic work as you proceed through a project. Pretty/shiny sells. Mechanical is generally taken for granted. In the event of a fire sale that hardware won't get you the cash a couple of shiny parts will.

 

Buyers are ravenous for that stuff.

'

[EmTee]

🤮

[Hazdaz]

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

https://www.thedrive.com/cleaning-detailing/36361/how-much-does-it-cost-to-paint-a-car

 

Quote

"In general, expect to pay anywhere from $300 to upwards of $10,000 for a professional paint job. The upper end of that price is where we find metal flake, multi-colored, and custom paint jobs, so unless you’re prepping your car for a show there’s really no need to spend that much."

 

And I have to wonder, how much you guys think your cars are actually worth?  According to Hagery's price tracker, a concours level car these days is worth only about the mid-$40k.  So some of you guys are stating that about HALF the value of your car comes from the paint job.  That's bonkers. 

 

https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/values/1389?yearRange=3

 

And to be clear, I am just lightheartedly joking around with you guys, I'm not trying to start an argument with how others are spending their money, but yeah, no way in hell I'd spend that much on any car worth less than 6-figures. 

[kreed]

Interesting conversation indeed with some great stories . I have always said and still try to convince myself  that if someone would give me every dollar spent for every car that I own , it would be very tempting to jerk their arm off ( at least my wife would) but that being said I also have several cars that will NEVER  be worth even close to  what I have in them . I believe this is a hobby to enjoy not an investment to retire on some day . How many times to you see something go at auction with $100 K in receipts sell for $40 K? My future philosophy after dealing with  my latest on-going project is to buy someone else’s restoration  …… but I still do believe  half the fun of having these old cars is the “ journey “ of chasing parts , painting and making them presentable.  Yes , some may increase in value but others will decrease . Personally I would rather spend $10-15 K on a quality paint job than $5 K on something that would drive me  crazy every time I looked at it . Hard to put a dollar amount on the enjoyment ones gets at looking at a car “ done right “ vs the 20 footer .😀Just my thoughts . Anyway it’s still lots of fun.

KReed

ROA 14549

[60FlatTop]

25 minutes ago, kreed said:

Hard to put a dollar amount on the enjoyment ones gets at looking at a car “ done right “ vs the 20 footer .

That would really depend on how often the best side of the car showed when parked.

 

[awk409ak]

On 7/16/2021 at 11:04 AM, kreed said:

Interesting conversation indeed with some great stories . I have always said and still try to convince myself  that if someone would give me every dollar spent for every car that I own , it would be very tempting to jerk their arm off ( at least my wife would) but that being said I also have several cars that will NEVER  be worth even close to  what I have in them . I believe this is a hobby to enjoy not an investment to retire on some day . How many times to you see something go at auction with $100 K in receipts sell for $40 K? My future philosophy after dealing with  my latest on-going project is to buy someone else’s restoration  …… but I still do believe  half the fun of having these old cars is the “ journey “ of chasing parts , painting and making them presentable.  Yes , some may increase in value but others will decrease . Personally I would rather spend $10-15 K on a quality paint job than $5 K on something that would drive me  crazy every time I looked at it . Hard to put a dollar amount on the enjoyment ones gets at looking at a car “ done right “ vs the 20 footer .😀Just my thoughts . Anyway it’s still lots of fun.

KReed

ROA 14549

Kreed,

 

I'm with you 100%.  I have been there and done it.  It is a hobby to me, but I still watch how I spend the $$$$ on a project.

 

Art

 

[B Jake Moran]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:55 AM, Jim Cannon said:

I'd say, when pricing what you are willing to pay for the car, assume you will be rebuilding the engine and transmission. You probably will be.

 

 

Jim, 

and so unless one is a devout hobbyist with space, some skills and a machine shop / qualified transmission shop around, a person should make a decision not to drop $10,000 or more on a Riviera.   Rebuilds on about any motor, done correctly, are $10,000, an automatic transmission $4,000 and that does not include accessories and installation time.  

[B Jake Moran]

On 7/16/2021 at 10:04 AM, kreed said:

Interesting conversation indeed with some great stories . I have always said and still try to convince myself  that if someone would give me every dollar spent for every car that I own , it would be very tempting to jerk their arm off ( at least my wife would) but that being said I also have several cars that will NEVER  be worth even close to  what I have in them . I believe this is a hobby to enjoy not an investment to retire on some day . How many times to you see something go at auction with $100 K in receipts sell for $40 K? My future philosophy after dealing with  my latest on-going project is to buy someone else’s restoration  …… but I still do believe  half the fun of having these old cars is the “ journey “ of chasing parts , painting and making them presentable.  Yes , some may increase in value but others will decrease . Personally I would rather spend $10-15 K on a quality paint job than $5 K on something that would drive me  crazy every time I looked at it . Hard to put a dollar amount on the enjoyment ones gets at looking at a car “ done right “ vs the 20 footer .😀Just my thoughts . Anyway it’s still lots of fun.

KReed

ROA 14549

It is a hobby to enjoy but somewhere in the last 35 years it became a market driven investment pit for many, not all.    There is a very nice 1972 Boattail listed for $12,000 in the Buick Buy/Sell section.  In my mind, it could likely be purchased for $11,000 and likely has some blemishes if seen in person.  

 

So you buy this car for $11,000, which I am sorry is still a lot of money to me - and take it to an ROA meet or BCA meet or any local festival meet.  You love the car, but someone starts nitpicking it, or you park next to "Mr. I - spent - $80,000 - on - my - restoration" car and he does not even offer a hand to shake, just walks over to the trophy area and plops down his chair to wait for his plastic award.  

 

There are just too many variables in the hobby.  You are more than entitled to drop whatever coin you want to separate yourself from the 20 footer, it's your hobby profile.  But please go talk to the guy who has 3 kids, 2 in college, and grandparents to support in nursing homes, and say "nice car"! 

[B Jake Moran]

On 7/15/2021 at 4:13 AM, powerage said:

25K easy on a quality paint job on a 50 plus year old car. Easy

They were not that nice new.    Disagree.  

 

Look guys, so much of the hobby is not on here.   I go to "festival" shows there are all kinds of cars from drivers to salt and pepper guys that retired and dropped $80,000 right away on muscle car from a dealer or a hot rod.  Then there are still guys out there, few and far between - painting cars in garages using modern equipment and paints from Eastwood and other suppliers.  

 

There have been many comments over the years from 1st and 2nd gen old car hobbyists, those who started to collect $100 cars in the 60's or 70's - who have said "they came from the factory with runs and different shades of front fenders v rear."   

 

The problem is the expectations of "400 point judging" or whatever.    Don't you think that a $3,000 paint job in a garage, using modern quality paints, and HVLP paint gun with moisture capture and so on - is not better than the paint jobs from the factory in the 50's to 70's.  IT IS!   $25,000?     How does one arrive at that figure, especially since the poster states "$25,000 easy".    Does that mean that $25,000 is middlin' and one can actually expect to drop $30,000 or $40,000 on a paint job??

 

Guys, we love the cars, and this is posted in the Riviera section.   No Riviera has ever been invited to Pebble Beach.  (I don't know for sure, but I am pretty sure)  A$50,000 or more bodywork/paint job for a Full Classic poised to be entered into a major Concours?  OK, but those cars are owned by the Jeff Bezos crowd, not (most) of us.  

 

If we agree with the $25,000 easy comment and give a thumbs up, the hobby is surely on the decline.   

[RivNut]

29 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

It is a hobby to enjoy but somewhere in the last 35 years it became a market driven investment pit for many, not all.    There is a very nice 1972 Boattail listed for $12,000 in the Buick Buy/Sell section.  In my mind, it could likely be purchased for $11,000 and likely has some blemishes if seen in person.  

 

So you buy this car for $11,000, which I am sorry is still a lot of money to me - and take it to an ROA meet or BCA meet or any local festival meet.  You love the car, but someone starts nitpicking it, or you park next to "Mr. I - spent - $80,000 - on - my - restoration" car and he does not even offer a hand to shake, just walks over to the trophy area and plops down his chair to wait for his plastic award.  

 

There are just too many variables in the hobby.  You are more than entitled to drop whatever coin you want to separate yourself from the 20 footer, it's your hobby profile.  But please go talk to the guy who has 3 kids, 2 in college, and grandparents to support in nursing homes, and say "nice car"! 

I do not think that you would receive this kind of reception at an ROA meet.  I remember in 2010 a member showed his 6th generation Rivieras. He apparently drove it through the car was but didn’t bother to scrub the whitewalls.  No one said anything to him.  For the most part, unless an owner asked for an opinion, opinions are kept silent.  At least out of earshot of the owner.  That’s the nice thing about peer judging. Everyone shows up and has a good time.  The late Chris Wolfe coined it along time ago, but it still holds true today. “The first time you come to a meet, you come for the cars. The next times you come for the people.”

[powerage]

25K in a shop for a QUALITY paint job. I could give you a $2500 paint job even easier. I just painted my Riv in my carport over Easter. Waited for a wind free day and wet the floor. It'll do for now. It's a driver.

I guess I was ball parking your average old car with usual issues getting a QUALITY body and paint job paying shop hours. All depends what you want and what the car is like to start with. How long's a piece of string

[kblawrence67]

I found what I wanted and bought it yesterday for $14.9

The paint is a 2/10 and the interior is an 8/10

From the 3rd party inspection:

"This 1968 Buick Riviera is in good running and driving condition with a few flaws to note.

I found no issues on the test drive. The engine had plenty of power and there were no misfires or
smoking. The transmission shifted as designed with no harsh engagement or slipping. The steering
was responsive and the suspension was firm and the vehicle handled well. There were no abnormal
vibrations or odd noises. The brakes were firm with no pulsation felt. There were no leaks found to
the underside of the vehicle."

 

It will give me something to do.

[EmTee]

In my opinion, many people judge these cars through the lens of what is available in a 2021 new car showroom.  For me, my classic cars are time machines that evoke the feeling I had as a kid when my mom or dad was behind the wheel.  As noted above, the 'magic mirror' finish on 50ish year old cars left much to be desired.  Thin color, blotchy metallic and so-so luster were typical -- they were painted by humans in an assembly line fashion.  I recall my best friend in the late '70s had a '66 Impala convertible that he repainted in the original turquoise, but with a clearcoat on top.  The difference that made was stunning and I remember thinking it was the deepest most 'liquid' appearing shine I had ever seen.  Fast-forward to today and base/clear and even tri-coat factory paint jobs (robot applied) are common.

 

My point is that a clean 'driver quality' car is all it takes to bring me back in time.  The 'over-restored' examples are nice to look at, but to me they represent an idealized picture of what the car could have been -- think 'concept car' of the era.  Lastly, I'll echo RivNut's comment about ROA meets.  Having attended the 2019 Gettysburg event I can say there were a diverse array of cars, from in-progress projects to drivers to conours restorations.  All were welcomed and were there primarily to spark interaction between the owners who all shared a common passion.