The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[blastermike]

Got some pictures of the frame i bought in spokane, its similar to mine but its slightly longer i reckon just looking at the section between the rear running board brkts and front rear spring hanger mounts, 

its also got the curved dumb iron rearends of the frame like the front

not sure if mine was like that?  as whats there on mine looks original and is only 2” deep at the end of my frame, 

another small bonus is i got rear fenders too and the bed on the back of this white has real neat side brackets and hardware on the tailgate 

all good to have

mike

[edinmass]

Mike, that's a great find......chassis looks fairly early? In the last 18 months I have driven and/or inspected in person.......3) 30 hp cars, 2) 45 hp cars, 2) 45 hp trucks, 1) 45 hp Buss, and am invited to soon get to play with a 6-60 and a 40 hp platform. The changes between them all; and even just from year to year;  make them almost an individual application as even the 30 hp chassis carried quite a bit of diffrence from the roadster to touring car in the same year. I also am going to have a chance to play with an early 5 ton truck, as well as a WWI 3 ton truck this summer. Also tripped over two early White fire engines. Lots of White owners have reached out to me over the last few months with lots of help and offers to share information. One of the Whites I recently came across is what I can only describe as the absolutely best vehicle in its class in the world.....unfortunately the owner is VERY private about his collection and it's contents. It's clearly the best assortment of White vehicles in the world.......

[Dandy Dave]

9 hours ago, blastermike said:

Got some pictures of the frame i bought in spokane, its similar to mine but its slightly longer i reckon just looking at the section between the rear running board brkts and front rear spring hanger mounts, 

its also got the curved dumb iron rearends of the frame like the front

not sure if mine was like that?  as whats there on mine looks original and is only 2” deep at the end of my frame, 

another small bonus is i got rear fenders too and the bed on the back of this white has real neat side brackets and hardware on the tailgate 

all good to have

mike

Say. I could use what's left to the muffler on that as the one on my truck is missing. Even if the pieces had to be recast I'd be game. Dandy Dave. 

[blastermike]

Hi dave sorry mate im taking the muffler as i need one too even though its only good for a patern, but id be happy to have the endplates recast for you dave, send me a pm with your details and i will see what i can do,

it does seem a shame to cut the frame up but its all going towards helping me with mine and the pedals and clutch actuating shaft and engine mounts were sold to a good friend in chicago who has a white which when he bought it came with a ford model a engine in it, hes just bought a white engine and needed the pedals and clutch set up and engine mounts to put his white back to something more original? So this frame is helping to restore 2 white trucks

yeh ed going by the 3 pronged steering wheel it does look more early to mid teens ?, i was very lucky that this white frame was only a  1/2 hr drive from my mates place north of spokane and hes done all the legwork for me, im really happy to get all the bed hardware and rear fenders too

mike

 

 

[edinmass]

Mike, I agree……funny, I was going to ask about the muffler………..can you post photos of the original casting before you make them? I’m curious to compare it to what was on the cars I have seen, 

[1912Staver]

Hi Mike, I know shipping is crazy these days, but would not have this one been a better start than the one you are now working on ? At least it hadn't been seriously modified.  Too bad you didn't find it back when you found the first one and had it shipped a few years ago before rates went nuts .

  Greg

[edinmass]

“You take what you can find”……….Jay Leno talking about buying a Doble steam car. 

[1912Staver]

Well Ed, if a person has Jay's resources that's a  very easy statement to make and live by. The rest of us however ....... not so much.

 

I have had to pass up several very worthwhile opportunities over the years because try as I might some shortcoming on my side of the equation couldn't be overcome. Those sort opportunities have pretty much vanished over the last 15 years in these parts.

Edited April 10, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I wasn’t referring to dollars…….just when you collect the Uber rare……..choice is not often in the cards. Like the Doble………..it’s never about money when you buy a Doble. It’s who is in line for the last thirty years waiting for the next one to become available. Does the owner like you? Estate information and decisions beyond anyones control. When putting together White trucks pre WWI and you need components…….you buy what you can find, regardless of year, condition, or price………otherwise you will die waiting for better options to come along. Having half a wheel, hub, or front end is ten times better than nothing at all……..been there, done that.

[blastermike]

Hi greg 

yeh its a real shame for sure but that little white i got was shipped here by a south island farmer as all he wanted was the old marine engine, i only paid a grand for it, so to me its worth my time and effort to find the rest

over the years ive learnt to buy it when you see it with old truck stuff especially mechanical stuff, but the downside to this is my sheds are never big enough and i need more!

greg im still planning on getting that truck of you maybe later this year?

these white parts im sending to Virginia to go with my Liberty stuff end of your summer

ed ill send photos of the original muffler ends once i get my hands on it

i do have an old nos muffler similar i got a few years back, i will post a pic of that and the one that came with the 3 ton white chaindrive truck if that helps?

mike

[1912Staver]

Later this year is probably fine. There may be a move in my middle distance future if my wife gets her way. She is getting very tired of living in a dump { even if it has a land value that would knock your socks off }. Trouble is around here it is like N.Z., your million $ dog can only be redeemed for someone down the roads $ 1.5 million dollar cat . Only the Gov. through taxes on the transaction and the Real Estate Agents really profit. 

 Upshot is that I doubt moving day will be any sooner than several months from now.

 

Regarding having to cut up the Washington state truck, in the end your getting a White together is the most important thing. But at the same time , not having to do major frame surgery has its merits as well.

My Two ton frame was totally taken apart by a Farmer in Utah who wanted some of the steel channel for a farm project. Luckily he only actually used the rear half of one side, I got the other 3/4's, but what a job it's going to be putting it all back together. The frame was stretched from the factory shortest W.B. to the next longer factory W.B. Possibly as a new truck at a Dealer, the quality of the work is very good.  When it goes together I am going to go back to the short version. These things are big enough as it is.

 I used to know where there was a couple of later teens Whites in Oregon , a few hours due East of Portland. They were probably at least 3 tons but intact and in reasonably good condition. At the time I had real thoughts of substituting one for my basket case Packard 2 ton project. But getting them across the border and home was more than I could take on at the time. { one of those missed opportunities Ed } 

 I doubt they are still there, a 1 horse town out in the boonies, but the owner was in his late 70's and already the town was giving him static about them. As far as I was concerned the two Whites were the highlight of the town, but obviously others saw things differently.

Edited April 11, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Ed , I know only too well about the principals of involvement with the uber rare. A few of my projects are just that. But apart from the Staver Chicago, post war and British so I doubt very much you would have even heard of them. But yes , when dealing with single digit survivors, you can indeed die waiting for a better one to come along. Or for the rest of the parts to materialize for that mater. It's been a 4 decade journey now, unfortunately in my case the $ are always a serious holdback. Makes the climb that much steeper.

 

I know race cars aren't quite your thing Ed. But here is one of my  " rare " ones  a 1973 Elden Formula 3 car. One of 3 built in 1973 { Cosworth BDA power } with a further 3 built in 1974. For the first few years when new it was a pro series Formula 3 car. Modified with a VW Super V engine once it came here to North America in the late 1970's as the care and feeding of a Cosworth can run a bundle. And not really necessary as it got too old for pro racing and gravitated down to amateur events. The other one. bright green, is one of its sisters, restored and used in British historic F3 events. Engine swaps are no big deal in these cars. The gearboxes are all the same, just a different intermediate plate to match your engine and motor mounts. They variously came with pushrod Fords , Lotus Twin Cams, Cosworth BD series, Hart 420's, Water cooled VW's and BMW M12's. They are all more or less a bolt in.

Edited April 11, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I like race cars……but as you said they are not my cup of tea………I do know what a F3 car is…….which is unusual for me. I had a friend that had his own team running in that sanction. Neat car and platform. My days at the track have always been in straight lines……….👍👍

[Dandy Dave]

8 hours ago, blastermike said:

Hi dave sorry mate im taking the muffler as i need one too even though its only good for a patern, but id be happy to have the endplates recast for you dave, send me a pm with your details and i will see what i can do,

it does seem a shame to cut the frame up but its all going towards helping me with mine and the pedals and clutch actuating shaft and engine mounts were sold to a good friend in chicago who has a white which when he bought it came with a ford model a engine in it, hes just bought a white engine and needed the pedals and clutch set up and engine mounts to put his white back to something more original? So this frame is helping to restore 2 white trucks

yeh ed going by the 3 pronged steering wheel it does look more early to mid teens ?, i was very lucky that this white frame was only a  1/2 hr drive from my mates place north of spokane and hes done all the legwork for me, im really happy to get all the bed hardware and rear fenders too

mike

 

 

Yes. Agree with Ed on detailed photos and measurements. If you can have some cast let me know. I'm interested. I have a parts list on it also. I can post photos of it when I get back home. I'm out way out west now. Thanks, Dandy Dave! 

[blastermike]

1st. 2 Pictures are of the muffler that came with my early 3 ton white truck it is fairly short in length

and a nos muffler i bought from the guy i know in chicago, this muffler is quiet heavy and is well made i my opinion, hope this is of interest

mike

[jordyStepho]

Those are some pretty nice quality parts, they just need a little scrub and good as new, great pics

[1912Staver]

Does each of those sections come apart , perhaps for cleaning ? The ends almost look like steel pressings rather than castings. 

[Dandy Dave]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Does each of those sections come apart , perhaps for cleaning ? The ends almost look like steel pressings rather than castings. 

Yes. I wondered the same thing. My parts book shows them as separate parts but did not show the material they were made out of. Looks like pressed pieces in the photo. Thanks for sharing blastermike. 

[blastermike]

Dave Pictures of the nos muffler apart

it is pressed sections each with a rib inside and two baffles, simple but if you had to recreate these days it would cost you a fortune?

most of my english trucks mufflers built upto the early 20’s had cast ends with one or two rods going through a plain tube and a seperate baffle section inside that the rods passed through like this one

mike

[1912Staver]

Yes, all pressings. But heavy gauge steel, and built to last ! It's a style of construction I have not seen before. I wonder if White cars are similar ?

I have a few teens mufflers in my parts pile. And all of them are like you say, cast ends , tubular steel inner and outer sleeves, and through bolts holding it all together.

[wayne sheldon]

I wish I could say I actually knew something about this kind of muffler. I have seen several of them over the years, but never seen one apart before. Almost half of the ones I have seen were on or had been removed from mid 1920s Buicks. One fellow I asked about one of these said he thought they were original to Buicks at that time. But I really don't believe he really knew. I haven't seen enough of them to believe they would have been commonly used on such a common car. My dad had a 1928 Buick Master seven passenger sedan. It was a mess, and he never did anything good with it. When he died, I literally had a few weeks to dispose of most of his stuff. I didn't have time to market hardly any of it, and gave about half of it away. The muffler went with his Buick as a parts car to a fellow that collected late 1920s/early 1930s General Motors stuff. I thought later I should have kept the muffler as a curiosity. But I had given the fellow a "Take it all or none" offer.

So as I read this thread, I think back and wish I had kept it. Maybe I could have donated it to a worthwhile use.

 

Just more silly musings by me.

[Larry Schramm]

Those mufflers are quite common on early Buick's.  My '08, '13, '15 all have cast iron ends that use standard stove pipe for the muffler body. 

 

They are all about 6 inch standard stove pipe.  That is why they are called stove pipe mufflers. 

 

My '17 & '18 have heavy stamped ends that use standard stove pipe for the muffler body.

 

All with the long carriage bolts to hold the muffler together.  Usually about 28 inches long.

 

Inexpensive repair for a worn out muffler with common materials from the local hardware store in the day.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[KLF]

21 hours ago, blastermike said:

Dave Pictures of the nos muffler apart

it is pressed sections each with a rib inside and two baffles, simple but if you had to recreate these days it would cost you a fortune?

most of my english trucks mufflers built upto the early 20’s had cast ends with one or two rods going through a plain tube and a seperate baffle section inside that the rods passed through like this one

mike

I believe this is a Powell Muffler. This was factory on my 14 Premier. I've had mine apart and had to repair a few weak spots. Cast ends with a cutout at the front. Works well and sounds good.

Ken

 

[Dandy Dave]

17 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

Those mufflers are quite common on early Buick's.  My '08, '13, '15 all have cast iron ends that use standard stove pipe for the muffler body. 

 

They are all about 6 inch standard stove pipe.  That is why they are called stove pipe mufflers. 

 

My '17 & '18 have heavy stamped ends that use standard stove pipe for the muffler body.

 

All with the long carriage bolts to hold the muffler together.  Usually about 28 inches long.

 

Inexpensive repair for a worn out muffler with common materials from the local hardware store in the day.

When I re-did the one for my 1915 Buick I made the pipe pieces out of Stainless Steel I had laying around. I figured I would never have to touch it again. 🙂 I know how Stove pipe rots out. I had one once on a vehicle that backfired and blew the stove pipe wide open. 😬 LOL.. And it was a new piece to boot. Dandy Dave!  

Edited April 14, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

Do you need a white truck?

 

 

https://www.jjkane.com/items/1248997/

 

1922?

 

 Oakhurst, CA

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

The data plate one the above truck shows a May 1926 build date.....not the 1922 it is listed as.........

 

132859

 

 

Very nice truck...........just no room for it down here, or I would jump own it.

Edited April 18, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

As of 7:30 Monday Detroit time the current bid is $3,500.00.  Almost the price for a set of tires for the truck.

 

https://jjkane.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?lid=68050232

[edinmass]

And a good friend of mine lives ten miles away…….

[blastermike]

Well ive being trying to get the adjustable clutch plate out of the back piece of the flywheel with no luck

i tried a big propane torch to heat  it up, then next i had a big burn off of old pallets at my work so i put it in the fire, still no movement!

i have now decided to give it a 3 or 4 month molasses bath and see if that does anything? I have had some success with other rusty parts so we will see, still very frustrating to say the least, theres just not enough to hold onto to put any pressure on the plate!

mike

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

Hope you multi task & did Smores & Hot Dogs at the same time with the camp fire  

[Paul Dobbin]

Another White!   This unrestored one carries a colliopy in local parades.  Loads of patina!

[blastermike]

Thats a very good looking white and if im right it looks like the doors slide, ive seen some doors that are like pocket type too on a pierce arrow and an early mack from memory, a cool idea i reckon, 

thanks for the picture

mike

[nsbrassnut]

For Blastermike

 

Keep an eye on cast iron in a molasses bath. I had read how molasses can attach the grainular structure of cast iron and eat  into the carbon particles. I was curious about what would happen so I left a couple of Model T top saddle rests in a molasses bath and then forgot them for a few months.

 

You can see how they turned out. The molasses ate wormholes into the casting.  It was a fairly solid part with surface rust when it went in.

 

Hopefully that won't happen to your flywheel.

 

Stay Well

Jeff

[edinmass]

Using any form of chelating process causes loss to the part…….it’s just dependent on how much. Acid does the same thing. The only accurate way to know how much loss there is, is by weighing it accurately. One percent loss can be expected.

[blastermike]

Thought id try to get one of the other clutches apart, (a worse looking one!) and low and behold this time success 

the thread looks a bit more on the fine side, you can see on the back of the the plate where the waters accumulated but luckily on this one the threaded areas stayed slightly oily still had to use a bit of heat,

now things are moving forward again, these white clutches are very well made and for a 30 h/p engine seem a little over engineered - in my opinion

mike

[wayne sheldon]

I clicked on the "unread threads" and it began to open up showing clean threads on the edge of the clutch plate----- My first thought------ "SUCCESS!"

Congratulations!

[LI_BENTLEY]

Take a look at the GF White on the Old motor site.

[Gunsmoke]

Trying to imagine what type of gear they had to machine those fine threads on such large dimeter parts, both the inner one and the outer one. The total surface contact area is very large, not surprised they would be so difficult to unscrew. I have a tough enough time getting a bottle of pickles open!

[JV Puleo]

A big lathe with holding fixtures for the parts and gauges to check the threads. It isn't any more difficult than machining a fine thread on a smaller diameter. In fact, when cutting threads on a lathe the diameter isn't all that important and fine threads are easier to cut than course threads because they are shallower. They may not be all that fine...on a diameter that big a 12tpi thread would appear quite fine. It's just a guess, but I'll bet the tpi is evenly divisible by four so 12 or 16 is likely. With proper holding fixtures and the parts made to a close tolerance (which I am certain was the case with White) you'd only have to set it up once, after which you'd have all your settings and you could make multiple identical parts.

 

The lathe would have been run very slow because the surface speed for a large diameter increases geometrically. The saving grace is that the threads could have been very slightly loose. You would not be able to tell...thread engagement would have been fine and disassembling it would have been easier.

 

[EDIT] I looked at the pictures again. The real trick with that job is the internal thread that runs right up to the face of the flywheel. that is called "threading to a stop"...stopping the thread at exactly the same place every time. Most lathes can't do it and it's effectively impossible to do manually. The Hendey lathe could do it and I suspect a few other high end machines but it's a very good piece of machine work regardless.

Edited May 9, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Those threads are UNC............so the cutter must be different to get the right angle? Anyway, back to fun things. Phil and I will get back on the White in about a month. Here are some cool photos sent to me by a member here.......a White estate wagon from the Vanderbilt's to shuttle guests......and I bet dollars to doughnuts the seats pop out real quick to have a light truck for use on the estate also. Lots of fun........