The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[Dandy Dave]

On 2/17/2022 at 4:49 AM, edinmass said:

That’s a cool truck.....very early. Probably a 1912 or 1913.

The truck is later than 1913. The 12's and 13's were still right hand drive. 

[edinmass]

I think the cone clutch and right hand drive went away at the same time.........

[PFindlay]

12 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

The truck is later than 1913. The 12's and 13's were still right hand drive. 

It's described as a 1912 Model 15 Combination Car.

[edinmass]

9 hours ago, PFindlay said:

It's described as a 1912 Model 15 Combination Car.

Sure wish I knew where that disassembled White combination car is..........I would like to add it to the collection. I suspect that it’s probably still apart. Anyone who knows it’s owner or has contact information on it please PM me.........who knows.........maybe another White story thread? Phil and I need something to occupy our time in about 18 months.........like to keep ahead of these things!

[George K]

On 2/5/2022 at 12:53 PM, edinmass said:

George.....this tosses in more monkey wrenches into the discussion...........trucks on cars chassis.......just more proof they could build anything anyone would request. In reality, White had the ability, engineers, and WILLINGNESS to do custom work for the same cost as one of their catalog car offerings.........

 

 

 

 

White’s are all built on a flat chassis. Trucks plain and simple. Must be your interpretation of what a monkey wrench is. Your 1917 is a car only chassis with a rear kick up due to the only White to use a unit transmission. Nice try.

[edinmass]

I think the consensus is that a White car is just a fast version of a White truck! 😎
 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I think the consensus is that a White car is just a fast version of a White truck! 😎
 

 

Your 1917 is the exception. Yes it’s overbuilt and heavy but a serious special car. Here’s another one you should find. 

[George K]

BTW you’re not the first guy with good eye balls to like White’s. This is from the Art Austria auction. One of several White’s he collected.

[Dandy Dave]

On 3/1/2022 at 8:12 PM, PFindlay said:

It's described as a 1912 Model 15 Combination Car.

The model 15 was not called that until 1915 and then produced until 1925. The  model before the 15 was a GBBE.   The only way to know is with a serial number.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[edinmass]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:50 AM, George K said:

Your 1917 is the exception. Yes it’s overbuilt and heavy but a serious special car. Here’s another one you should find. 

interestingly enough I know where it is. And I’ve been making parts for him as well as myself. It was sold in the Harrahs auction. 

[edinmass]

On 3/2/2022 at 9:08 AM, George K said:

BTW you’re not the first guy with good eye balls to like White’s. This is from the Art Austria auction. One of several White’s he collected.

I know where this one is also. 😎

[George K]

I find this an interesting comparison. Same fenders and lights. 1918

[George K]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:08 AM, George K said:

BTW you’re not the first guy with good eye balls to like White’s. This is from the Art Austria auction. One of several White’s he collected.

This probably the same car.

[George K]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

interestingly enough I know where it is. And I’ve been making parts for him as well as myself. It was sold in the Harrahs auction. 

Close coupled Rubay.

[George K]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

interestingly enough I know where it is. And I’ve been making parts for him as well as myself. It was sold in the Harrahs auction. 

If it’s that car it should have this  steering wheel. Does it?

[edinmass]

Not sure I will have to check.....it’s the same model and year......the question is how many of them did they build. It’s a factory body....not a Rubay.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, George K said:

This probably the same car.

Definitely a 1916 chassis.......and a bunch were in government service.......and there seems to be an officer sitting in it.

[George K]

On EBay now.

[George K]

There doesn’t seem a difference 15 to 16 with bodies. The Art Austria car was a Six cylinder T head.

[LI_BENTLEY]

I do not think White made a T head six they made a couple hundred mono bloc  L head sixes.

[George K]

46 minutes ago, LI_BENTLEY said:

I do not think White made a T head six they made a couple hundred mono bloc  L head sixes.

[George K]

I know White sixes are rare. Probably a typo. Wouldn’t be the first time. Thought it interesting that the next engine the 16v4 is a T head.

[LI_BENTLEY]

16 hours ago, George K said:

There doesn’t seem a difference 15 to 16 with bodies. The Art Austria car was a Six cylinder T head.

 

11 minutes ago, George K said:

I know White sixes are rare. Probably a typo. Wouldn’t be the first time. Thought it interesting that the next engine the 16v4 is a T head.

Definitely a typo the serial/engine no. Is also wrong does not match any White number information.

[LI_BENTLEY]

10 minutes ago, LI_BENTLEY said:

 

Definitely a typo the serial/engine no. Is also wrong does not match any White number information.

The number reads as G6155 if it is GF155 it would be a GF engine a L head cast in block mono bloc.  Does anyone know where this car is located?

[edinmass]

There are very few sixes, one is a fire truck, another is in Oklahoma. Rumor two or three more but no photos.

[13White]

On 3/1/2022 at 3:11 PM, edinmass said:

I think the cone clutch and right hand drive went away at the same time.........

Based on my research and literature I have collected over the years, I would offer the following;

1912- RH drive and cone clutch

1913- LH drive and cone clutch

1914- LH drive and disc clutch

I have seen photos over the years of cars identified as "1912 White" that I would believe are 1913.

I could be wrong, but I do have a fair bit of original information. I am fairly certain that 1913 is the first year of LH drive for the 30-40 HP cars. 

[13White]

3 hours ago, 13White said:

Based on my research and literature I have collected over the years, I would offer the following;

1912- RH drive and cone clutch

1913- LH drive and cone clutch

1914- LH drive and disc clutch

I have seen photos over the years of cars identified as "1912 White" that I would believe are 1913.

I could be wrong, but I do have a fair bit of original information. I am fairly certain that 1913 is the first year of LH drive for the 30-40 HP cars. 

 

[13White]

Just now, 13White said:

 

 

[Trulyvintage]

I updated the thread title to reflect the direction of the thread since I started it.

 

I tried to time my last trip to Florida

to meet my friend Ken

( the previous owner ) and do 

some video interviews but the

timing didn’t quite turn out.

 

I am glad my hunch was proven 

to be correct that Ed Minnie

was the best choice to be the

new Caretaker of “ Billy “.

 

Phil has done incredible work

on the car and I want to 

Thank Phil for his efforts.

 

If things go according to plan

I should be dropping off in

the Miami area in a few weeks

and I will get to visit again 

with “ Billy “.

 

 

Jim

[Mark Wetherbee]

A bit pricey for a small picture, but this one is on eBay and thought you might appreciate it…

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/C3-Photograph-1910-20s-Women-Driving-Cranking-Crank-Start-Old-Car-Artistic-/134047241590?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

Great photo! Must be a 1913? Left hand driven.

She I do not think knows how to crank a car, cause that is not the way to do so!

 

 

 

Mark W, No such thing as "Free Shipping" either! One of my pet gripes about commercials.

Edited March 9, 2022 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Sure looks like a 1913 to me.......great photo. 

[13White]

14 hours ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

A bit pricey for a small picture, but this one is on eBay and thought you might appreciate it…

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/C3-Photograph-1910-20s-Women-Driving-Cranking-Crank-Start-Old-Car-Artistic-/134047241590?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

 

Well, this photo certainly has me questioning what I know about 1913 White cars. 
it is definitely left hand drive as the script on the radiator is not reversed. But the gas headlights and oil side lamps are earlier more like an 11-12. Also, the external door handle on the rear door is not found on a 1913. The top of the firewall and windshield look earlier like 1911 as well. The steering wheel has 4 spokes, where the earlier cars usually have 3 spokes. The large front hubs look like the larger 40hp car. 
And it definitely appears to be an original image from the past so that eliminates an inaccurate restoration. 
I just don’t know what to think. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by 13White (see edit history)

[PFindlay]

1 hour ago, 13White said:

Well, this photo certainly has me questioning what I know about 1913 White cars. 
it is definitely left hand drive as the script on the radiator is not reversed. But the gas headlights and oil side lamps are earlier more like an 11-12. Also, the external door handle on the rear door is not found on a 1913. The top of the firewall and windshield look earlier like 1911 as well. The steering wheel has 4 spokes, where the earlier cars usually have 3 spokes. The large front hubs look like the larger 40hp car. 
And it definitely appears to be an original image from the past so that eliminates an inaccurate restoration. 
I just don’t know what to think. 

If you Google 1912 White it's not hard to find LHD cars that are identified as 1912 Whites.  Are they all wrong, or did White offer both RHD and LHD in 1912?

 

[wayne sheldon]

One thing I found out a long time ago in this hobby. There are a lot of things we will never completely sort out. A lot of car manufacturing companies built a lot of cars, that did not match the sales literature. 

I have told the story before on another thread a couple years ago. When a good friend of mine was having his National touring car restored, oh they had fun! The car's history was pretty well known, and the early 1910s car had been substantially updated in the early 1920s. Newer style top, windshield and fenders among other minor things. They had done a lot of research, and had copies of original literature, as well as original era photographs. The problem was, that the fenders in the photographs didn't quite match what was seen in most of the literature. They contacted a few owners of same year and supposedly model car, and found that all of the original fenders from one car to another didn't exactly match either. So there they were, trying to duplicate the long gone original fenders, and they couldn't even get an agreement between original literature and original photos, and even a couple restored cars to know what was really right! They finally settled on one style that seemed to be in several photos and closely matched two other surviving cars, one of which was close enough to go and take careful measurements, tracings, and photos of. Those were the fenders they duplicated for their National to return it to its early 1910s look.

 

Even cars as well recorded as the model T Ford. During the 1920s, Ford offered several options for wheels on new model T Fords. A lot more than most people realize! Between three types of non-demountable rim clinchers between the mid 1910s and the end of production, two wooden felly styles, as well as a steel felly style. Two tremendously different types of demountable rim clincher wheels, the more common of which were manufactured by four different companies of which half of the rims will not properly fit the other company's wheels. Balloon style 21 inch straight side wheels and tires for three years, and in two differing brake drum sizes. Along with their Ford welded steel wire wheels available only for 1926 and 1927 model years.

 

Ford's own archives have provided "dates of changes" saying that the steel felly non-demountable rim wheels will totally replace the wooden felly non-demountable rim wheels on such or such a date (several different dates have been found!). The problem with those "dates of changes"? Is that Ford's own factory photographs clearly show that the wooden felly wheels continued to be used clear until the end of production. Although records clearly show that the steel felly wheel (for the low cost option) will be exclusive, it never happened. 

 

 I wish I had copies of the Ford factory photos to share, I do not. But I did get to see them in a private collection over forty years ago! It would take some digging but I do have copies of general era photos showing the wooden felly wheels on later cars than the records indicate should have had the steel felly wheels. While photos showing the wooden felly wheels are actually fairly common on early to mid 1920s model Ts, photos showing the steel felly wheels are around, but not nearly as common. In spite of the fact that the dates of changes indicate that everything by the mid 1920s should not have been the wooden felly wheels. One of the dates of changes I have seen was in 1921. But it clearly did not happen.

The 1926/'27 wood or wire wheels have also been argued ad nauseum on model T websites. I don't care how many different people want to show me their copy of the sales literature that states quite clearly that certain body styles were going to all get the steel wire wheels as standard equipment at some point in 1926. Therefore ALL late 1926 and all 1927 such body style must have wire wheels in order to be properly restored. Literally hundreds of era photographs showing very late model Ts of those body styles, and even a few original copies of sales receipts, say it never happened. That may have been the factory's intention. And clearly they sent the letters, and printed the literature. But it did not happen.

 

This is part of the fun, and frustration, of researching these things. NO one source alone can be fully believed. There are almost always exceptions, or outright errors, in recordkeeping.

[Dandy Dave]

Gas lights were still optional on my 1925 White truck in 1925. That is the way my truck was equipped. When the new electric lights came out I would guess not every one wanted them right away. That new fangled electric thing will kill you, like that big elephant Edison had his way with may have been the thought in some folks minds at the time. They will catch the car on fire and it will explode by god say the mountain folk. And some folks may have not wanted the extra expense of the electric system so opted to stay with Acetylene. Just a though. Even today some of us kick about all this computer trash that is forced on us by big auto. This was the computer of 1913. Dandy Dave! 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

20 hours ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

A bit pricey for a small picture, but this one is on eBay and thought you might appreciate it…

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/C3-Photograph-1910-20s-Women-Driving-Cranking-Crank-Start-Old-Car-Artistic-/134047241590?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

 

Whoa Honey, You'll break both arms that way! 😬 Dandy Dave! 

[Mark Wetherbee]

17 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

Whoa Honey, You'll break both arms that way! 😬 Dandy Dave! 

Or launch herself into the side ditch…

 

Some very interesting comments, I’m glad I reposted it from eBay!

[13White]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:19 PM, PFindlay said:

If you Google 1912 White it's not hard to find LHD cars that are identified as 1912 Whites.  Are they all wrong, or did White offer both RHD and LHD in 1912?

 

I have also seen over the years White cars (and trucks) of the 1913-14 era mis-identified as 1910-12. It’s even worse with White trucks models 15 and 20, as they retained the gas lights and early style hood and fenders etc up into the 1920s. But after many years of research I still am certain that LH drive was introduced for the 1913 model year for the “Thirty” model 30hp cars. The cone vs disc clutch is not as easy to be sure, as with the 30hp GK series engine and oil clutch being used in trucks up to the mid 1920s, many early cars had the cone clutch upgraded to disc as it is a virtual bolt-in conversion. It’s very interesting to try and sort out. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by 13White (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The more you look at and study White cars & trucks.........the less sure you are about anything. Lots of stuff -  photos/cars/trucks are incorrectly identified, and in some instanceses earlier photos and models appear in later catalogs. White was a fastenating company. They owned their own forrests for wood supply in their manufacturing. They also had lumber mills. They made school furniture as well as church furniture. Their castings are increadiable and they also made parts and items for general trade of automobiles, household items, and such. I have actually spoken to people who's family members all worked in different White factories........they were well taken care of.........and there as a special relationship between the owners/management/ and employees.