The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

[JV Puleo]

15 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Those threads are UNC............so the cutter must be different to get the right angle?

No. they are all 60-degee threads and use the same profile cutter. (Metric uses the same one also) The difference between UNC and UNF or UNS is the threads per inch. That isn't relevant with large diameters. There was no standard for diameters that big. Generally, for anything over an inch or two (except maybe bolts) the tpi is chosen to fit the job.

 

[blastermike]

Ed that white estate truck looks like it has a similar wheelbase as mine 9ft 6”

and how the back end finishing just behind the rear wheels and end of the chassis looks to me like its early teens?
did the owner say what year it was?  

Just to let the others know the thread on the clutch plate is 12 tpi

mike

[wayne sheldon]

The Vanderbilt estate White is left-side driven, so I would guess mid 1910s.

I notice the oil sidelamps are "inside spade-mount" model T knockoffs. Except for the main body which is of course the "spade-mount", most of the pieces are the same as the ones used by Ford. Ford's were manufactured to Ford's specifications by at least three companies in the USA as well as Classco (sp?) in Canada. The two most common were Edmund & Jones, and John Brown Manufacturing Co in Ohio.

I don't know just how many, but more than one of the companies that manufactured the oil sidelamps for Ford, also manufactured similar lamps and sold them as after-market replacements, and direct to other automobile manufacturing companies to use on their cars. Those after-market and other lamps came in several altered configurations, both in spade mount and bolt mount similar to what the model T used from 1915 onward. I have a pair (a right and a left) of a set sold to use as night work lamps to be mounted on the back of trucks so that they could be loaded or unloaded in the dark. Some years ago, I saw a copy of an advertisement showing them mounted on the back of a TT truck cab. My set has the bolt mount on the side of the lamp instead of the back of the lamp as Ford used, as well as different clear lenses and smaller side lenses opposite the bolt mount. I have seen the spade mount versions used on several low production cheaper cars of the mid 1910s, sometimes showing in original advertisements. (Wish I had some copies to share?)

I would be curious to see if this White's sidelamps have the round or squarish inner chamber/reflector. Ford used the round inner piece from 1915 until about 1918. And then the squarish one from 1918 until the end of model T production on cars sold without the electric (battery, starter, generator) package. The lower cost no starter cars were a lot more common than most people today want to believe. Although the lower cost non-demountable wheel rims were even more popular!

Which style inner piece they have would narrow down the age of the lamps, and therefore the vehicle. But of course, there are better ways to date the vehicle (serial number!).

Of course, I don't know if this White's oil sidelamps were original to this vehicle or not? But I suspect they may have been.

[edinmass]

The Vanderbilt car/truck is a 1911. The body is built by White under contract buy Kundtz. 

[Larry Schramm]

That truck body looks almost identical to the body on my '15 Buick truck with a few minor changes.

[LI_BENTLEY]

Notice the common mistake "restorers"  make, the gas tank is upside down ( gas tank for headlights).  The valve should be on top side.  Some people mount a center valve tank, another no no.

[George K]

Good to see Ed has been on the straight and narrow regarding White vehicles.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, George K said:

Good to see Ed has been on the straight and narrow regarding White vehicles.

 

 

Don't laugh..........I have the remains of a 1923 White bus!😝 No, I won't post photos of what is left........just ordered new wheel bearings for the rear on the car today. Phil and I are pushing out a bunch of work right now........should get back on the new White in about three weeks after I get back from the Pierce meet. 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

I must be psychic. More like serendipity. Or maybe I understand addiction and knew what was the next step down the rabbit hole of White.

[BobinVirginia]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:35 AM, edinmass said:

Those threads are UNC............so the cutter must be different to get the right angle? Anyway, back to fun things. Phil and I will get back on the White in about a month. Here are some cool photos sent to me by a member here.......a White estate wagon from the Vanderbilt's to shuttle guests......and I bet dollars to doughnuts the seats pop out real quick to have a light truck for use on the estate also. Lots of fun........

That’d be loads of fun at the beach cruising the ocean. Carrying a load of foolish friends of course. 

[George K]

Back on the mislabeled topic. The California title that came with the car validates on line date first sold 1921. Has the correct engine # 511. You may be in with HCCA because they are waiting with open arms. You being an East Coaster I’m sure you’ve heard the old saying. There is a big difference between BS and pound cake. Cheers 

[George K]

I’m not comparing projects. I am after the real answer. The #2 White is a good old car. Here’s a seven passenger Rubay Cadillac. Yours is a five passenger version build on a White platform. Side cowl vents were a mark of Rubay. Cadillac were pressure systems.

[edinmass]

I have seen one ad on line of a White that was identified by the poster as a Rubay with the vent and cowl lights but the ad didn’t call out a coach builder and there was no date on it but now I can’t locate it ….…..but the small car body is all steel and the 17  Rubay is all aluminum. And the quality of the small car isn’t up to the big one. There is a early 30 hp car with a hard top……..it’s a 14 if memory serves me right. Having looked through every catalog and ad I can find on any gas White I have never seen anything showing a hard top but obviously they were available……..the next question is why use the factory cast bronze folding windshield if your building a hard top from scratch….as they built other cars with a lower tilt out top hinged windshield with fixed pillars. At the cost of a White…….which was big numbers by anyones math……….the open car windshield doesn’t make sense for something factory built. 

[George K]

For your reading pleasure.

[George K]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

I have seen one ad on line of a White that was identified by the poster as a Rubay with the vent and cowl lights but the ad didn’t call out a coach builder and there was no date on it but now I can’t locate it ….…..but the small car body is all steel and the 17  Rubay is all aluminum. And the quality of the small car isn’t up to the big one. There is a early 30 hp car with a hard top……..it’s a 14 if memory serves me right. Having looked through every catalog and ad I can find on any gas White I have never seen anything showing a hard top but obviously they were available……..the next question is why use the factory cast bronze folding windshield if your building a hard top from scratch….as they built other cars with a lower tilt out top hinged windshield with fixed pillars. At the cost of a White…….which was big numbers by anyones math……….the open car windshield doesn’t make sense for something factory built. 

They weren’t building a hard top. That’s an aftermarket period addition. California tops were a replacement top. Just like your sleeping/ camping seats.

[George K]

Go here to read about what is most likely your top. San Francisco right where your car was.

[edinmass]

Thanks George, I have seen those references. This is my guess as to the body builder.......

 

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/k/kundtz/kundtz.htm

 

 

 

White bough these guys out because they were 90 percent of their business, and wanted the factory space.

 

 

 

 

 

he September-December 1917 issue of the Standard Corporation Service, Daily Revised, announced the acquisition of the Kundtz works by its oldest and largest customer:

“Month of September, 1917:

“WHITE SEWING MACHINE CO.; Theo. Kundtz Co. Acquired. —

“'Finance,' Cleveland, 0„ Sept. 15, 1917, stated that this company had acquired what is reported to be a controlling interest in the Theo. Kundtz Co., manufacturers of sewing machine cabinets, automobile and truck bodies, automobile wheels, and church and school furniture.

“'Theo. Kundtz will continue as Pres., with W. W. Chase, Sec'y of the White Co., as Vice Pres. A. S. Rodgers, and Chas. Colgrove, of the White Co., have been made Kundtz Co. directors.'”

In fact it was the recently White Sewing Machine Corporation that acquired the firm. The Corporation served as the holding company for the firm's numerous enterprises which at that time included the White Sewing Machine Company, the Theodor Kundtz Company, and the Domestic Sewing Machine Company. The White Motor Co. was still operated as a separate entity alough it shared many shareholders and officers with the White Sewing Machine Corporation.

By the time of White’s acquisition of the Kuntz Works its five manufactories occupied thirty acres of land in Lakewood, the northernmost suburb of Cleveland that inhabited the southern shore of Lake Erie. 

Although they did not specialize in custom work the Murray-chassised Kundtz Cubist Touring Car was one of the main attractions at the 1918 New York Auto Salon. It was wrongly attributed to the Rubay Co. in the January 1918 issue of the Hub, which published the following retraction in its March 1918 issue:

“MURRAY ROADSTER, Body by Theodor Kundtz Co., Cleveland, Mounted on Murray chassis.

“Shown at New York Salon. The cubist car body mounted on Murray chassis shown on page 17 in the January issue of The Hub was built by the Theodor Kundtz Co., as well as the body of the White touring car shown on the same page and credited to Rubay Co.”

In addition to bodies constructed for US Allies, Kundtz was a known body supplier for the Model B Liberty trucks, the March 21, 1918 edition of The Automobile (Automotive Industries) reporting that they were awarded a contract for 550 Truck Bodies, Type A.

An ad featuring the Cubist coachwork appeared in the trades during 1918, the following transcription is taken from a representative advertisement found in the October 1918 Automobile Trade Directory:

“Kundtz Bodies For Motor Trucks & Automobiles

“Kundtz Cubist Body mounted on Murray chassis on display in Astor Hotel at recent show.

 

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

I didn't consider that the top company may have done the seat.......that makes perfect sense. It's still NOT a GM or a GMT chassis that was listed as what they were selling in 17 & 18. The chassis is simply 100 percent different than the standard car offering. Also, there was a local Cleveland hard top manufacturer a short distance away from White...........here is a Mercer........

 

Aftermarket hard top companies were very common in the era.........and if you research them almost every city had one or two small to medium sized shops advertising them. I'm guessing not too many used beveled glass. 

 

 

Also White actually built a truck called a GM....... as far as I know they were all fire trucks/pumpers....haven't seen anything else on them. There is one 1916 GM firetruck in existence.  It's in a very private collection, and I have an invitation to see it later this summer in the mid west. I have no information on the chassis of the GM trucks.....yet. Think I am getting close. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

You guys are a treasure trove of information on these long gone makes. Good stuff! I’m enjoying the conversation 

Edited June 16, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:55 AM, JV Puleo said:

No. they are all 60-degee threads and use the same profile cutter. (Metric uses the same one also) The difference between UNC and UNF or UNS is the threads per inch. That isn't relevant with large diameters. There was no standard for diameters that big. Generally, for anything over an inch or two (except maybe bolts) the tpi is chosen to fit the job.

 

Except for Whitworth which is 55 Degrees. Always a monkey wrench in the works somewhere. 😬🙃🤪. Dandy Dave!

[philip roitman]

This was at the 2022 Greenwich Concours and made me think of you, Ed. First time i believe I saw one in person. Even won a trophy for best Brass era car. The car is all original with a documented history.

Edited June 17, 2022 by philip roitman (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Saw that car at Pebble.............nice machine. It's currently for sale for a bunch of money. I hope they get it!

 

 

Here is a clipping on White early cars.......from the early steam days right up till 1917 where White was buying their bodies from  Kundtz.......then they bought the 30 acre factory. 

 

 

Although it’s unknown if Kundtz constructed the coachwork found on the earliest White Steamers, he supplied the firm with wood and cast-iron components, and eventually complete automobile bodies, first of wood, then later on sheathed in metal. 

The July 1, 1913 issue of Power Wagon included a 2-page article, ‘A Special Power Wagon for Rough Logging Works,’ describing Kundtz’ use of White trucks in their logging operations at Brecksville, Ohio.

By that time Kundtz had installed sheet metal stamping equipment and was supplying all of White’s factory coachwork. White offered a taxicab in its Model GA automobile and GB ¾ -ton light truck chassis and a number of Manhattan taxicab operators owned large fleets of White taxicabs. 

Up to February, 1915, Theodor Kundtz conducted his business, extensive as it was, as sole proprietor. On April 1st of that year the Theodor Kundtz Company was incorporated, the ‘Recent Incorporations’ column of the April 1, 1915 issue of St. Louis Lumberman reporting:

“Xenia, O. - The Green County Lumber Co., capital stock $10,000. Incorporators; Peter Kundtz Jr., Martin Kundtz, J.R. Payne, C.W. Murphy and Joseph Murphy.

“Cleveland, O. - Theodore Kundtz Co., capital stock $2,000,000 - to manufacture furniture, cabinets, auto bodies and other articles of wood. Incorporators; Bela Kennedy, Frank Friedle, Nick Winkle, Joseph J. Gedeon, Theodore Kundtz, and Theodore Kundtz Jr.”

The April 1915 issue of the Accessory and Garage Journal included a similar notice although many of the surnames were spelled differently:

“Theodore Kundtz Company, Cleveland, O.: $2,000,000; to manufactured automobile bodies; Theodore Kuntz, Theodore Kundtz Jr., N. Windell; J.J. Gedgeon, Frank Fridle, Bela Kormandy, B.S. Edgerly.”

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

Here is an interesting point about White cars.........much of what you see is incorrect. The car below from the Coachbuild page is not correct. It's a Rubay body.......but it doesn't have any tags or sills on it that are marked. This car or one identical to it was in the National Auto Museum in Reno for years. It was sold off and went to the east coast. It's now in the west coast and I am working with its current owner. Can't post photos of the actual car.......owner is shy. in mid 1916 White announced that ALL the GM series dual valve cars would be exclusively Rubay.............when I see every one of the four cars in existence in person I will then offer my opinion if the factory comment is correct. I suspect it is not. 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

59 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Here is an interesting point about White cars.........much of what you see is incorrect. The car below from the Coachbuild page is not correct. It's a Rubay body.......but it doesn't have any tags or sills on it that are marked. This car or one identical to it was in the National Auto Museum in Reno for years. It was sold off and went to the east coast. It's now in the west coast and I am working with its current owner. Can't post photos of the actual car.......owner is shy. in mid 1916 White announced that ALL the GM series dual valve cars would be exclusively Rubay.............when I see every one of the four cars in existence in person I will then offer my opinion if the factory comment is correct. I suspect it is not. 

 

 

I found it hard to believe this car could be Kundtz. It’s a quintessential Rubay headlights to tail light. Again I point out no White body had a side cowl vent until the last days of White passenger cars 1918. This is the first rendering I believe by Hibbard that shows the idea. It also shows the back end treatment of the car you are showing.

[George K]

I order- 1915 White dash-your 1917 White dash- your 1918 White dash- 1918 Cadillac dash. How can it be anything else.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Hallo you White specialists, I found an interesting page for you in this 1920s engineering book:

 

[blastermike]

Finally got the white clutch and brakes relined and should have them back by the end of the week,

for those that asked

the clutch material is a woven liner part nos 3812 and made by frodo

the clutch material was bonded on and put in an industrial oven to cure

Hope this is of interest.    mike

 

[wayne sheldon]

I find it very interesting!

Thank you for the update.

[Trulyvintage]

Click Here To See Where I Am Today

What My Actual Customers Say Click Here

 

Ed 👋

 

Thanks for the time today.

Lunch with you & Phil was great.

Glad all is well with you.

 

 

Jim

Edited September 21, 2022 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[George K]

Ed, Just a heads up about Canadians not liking White Automobiles. I thought this was a White but had another opinion which confirmed it.

[Trulyvintage]

Click Here To See Where I Am Today

What My Actual Customers Say Click Here

 

Imagine what the weight of an early tank did to that street ...

 

When he was alive - the Great Philanthropist Mr. Chet Krause 

who gave his company to his employees ...

 

Sometimes would parade his military collection on the public streets

which created issues with the roadways  ... 

 

Jim

 

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