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Ittenbacher Frank

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Everything posted by Ittenbacher Frank

  1. Dear Al, what are the news? Could you machine the piston to the required compression height? How much of wall thickness is remaining at the crown?
  2. Based on the photos, this model 38-2 series 3 on offer is today equipped with a Berling dual ignition magneto and a Berling ignition coil with switch in the dashboard. I have an early spare parts catalog (No.68) for 38-2, it shows a Bosch ZR6 2-spark dual Magneto and Bosch Dual ignition switch with coil. The Berling equipment is for example matching with the spare parts list for models 48 series 7 (catalog no. 78). I don't know when Locomobile changed from Bosch to Berling. Anyone of you has a parts catalog between 68 and 78? The dowel pin locations in the magneto bracket (which is bolted to the crankcase with 3 bolts) could probably give the answer whether the car was built with Bosch or Berling.
  3. Well done, Steve! Considering the amount of rust on the hollow bolts on top of the cylinders,they are in really good shape. On my tourer which was obviously never neglected or in bad condition, and at least during the last 30 years filled with antifreeze, the shaft thickness above the hexagon had become quite thin and even the corners of the hexagon were partly rusted away! Yours look quite ok in this regard.
  4. Dear Layden, The few German coils which I have seen are like this: Main handle for rotation the complete coil assembly: 4V: M on the left and A on the right. I believe it shall be Magneto and Anlassen (starting) or Ankurbeln (manual cranking) and the remark on the face plate: STELLUNG "A" NICHT DAUERND BEI STILLSTAND means don't leave it on A during resting. Another 4V, "Made in Germany", shows M and B and the additional mark in english language "NOT POSITION "B" WHEN RESTING" on the face plate. On 6V-units: M on the left and B on the right. Ignition powered by Magneto and Ignition powered by Batterie. The little knob on the face of the unit: To the left: Run or Anlassen & Betrieb (start and operate) to the left: Start or Ankurbeln (manual cranking) On a 4V Bosch unit from a french Darracq: On the face plate: JAMAIS SUR <<B>> PENDANT L'ARRET the little knob to the left: DEPART AU CONTACT ET MARCHE the little knob to the right: DEPART A LA MANIVELLE
  5. Thanks a lot, James! Regarding the clutch: Yes, absolutely true. Even today we have similar issues when designing our road milling machines which have most machine functions operated hydraulically except the drive to the milling drum with all these hundreds sharp picks which cut the asphalt surface: 75-90% of the engine power (500-1000 HP, depending to machine size) is transmitted through a dry multi-plate clutch to the milling drum which is really large and weights several tons. We have to achieve enough air flow through the clutch to cool the discs and transport the disk's worn material away, but avoid road dust entering the clutch and getting stuck in places where it can affect the disk's free movement. On the Locomobile we have another issue to consider: Oil mist from the engine or grease from the throw-out-bearing or cross shaft shall never enter the clutch discs! Therefore Riker has closed the clutch housing. Periodic cleaning is required. I did this on my tourer and found very little dust inside. Lothar had done that on his speed car and found it full with huge quantities of dirt. You found cleaning necessary, too. We should call it "preventative maintenance" and just plan to do that when circumstances allow for that work. Maybe after 10 years or 10.000 miles it might be a good idea to plan for that. An inspection pit with lifter is recommended because the clutch unit is really heavy and a tight fit in between flywheel and transmission. The work itself is not complicated. I explained that in an earlier post and showed my self-made tool for releasing the spring pressure. Regarding the rear axle ratio: Please don't mis-understand my question about lower ratios: I am not planning to reach the highest top speed or win any race, but I like the advantage of reduced engine speed at the same cruising speed. Your experience is most welcome for evaluation which ratio is still ok and usable without compromising acceleration or hill climbing abilities. Al explained what happened with his Chevy if you try a very fast ratio in mountain areas: Poor performance, no fun, you lose more than you gain. One question: Do you know the weight of your Sportif? I like to add another consideration which I learned when operation a large fleet of off-highway-trucks in mountainous area: If the average engine-RpM is reduced by lowering the rear axle ratio, then the water pump speed is reduced, too, and you can probably find operating temperatures (water and oil) increasing! But the necessary torque required from the engine is increased. There were reasons why Locomobile offered so many different ratios for their cars.
  6. Dear James, nice to hear froom you again! I didn't know you had to work on your Sportifs rear axle. I only knew about chutch trouble. How did you solve that? Now you changed from 3,2 to 3,07. How much difference do you feel on the road? Your feedback is very much appreciated! Kind regards Frank
  7. Dear Ed, thanks for your input. I fully agree. Please share more from the old expert's knowledge. One question: You suggest to use modern ring packages. Does that include chromed rings, or do you specifically ask for non-chromed rings? I was told these rings with hard chrome surface works well in modern liners but will damage the bores of old engines which have no liners. Is that true? Does that apply to Locomobile engine blocks? Somewhere I read the bores were treated, not just drilled into soft cast iron. I am keen to learn more about these experiences.
  8. Dear Al, I used the quiet Chrismas day for uploading the stuff. Investigation and preparation took several days and even more nights in advance. I like to ask you for two things which you can easily contribute to this topic: 1. share the engine-related papes of the series-19000-spare part book. 2. measure one of your series-19000-pistons in the same way I did (same positions, once in longitudinal direction and then crosswise, put them into an Excel-table for comparison. Then we can all learn from the factory updates.
  9. Dear Dan, I am not planning to put the engine anywhere but on the normal road. I am satisfied with the road performance, that is enough for me at this moment. See the official performance chart: 82.5 HP for 1915. Additionally I can tell you: My tourer's weight is 2480 kg, plus 2 people, assume 5800 lbs. Rear axle 3.85. On a 1:10-gradient there is still some acceleration in high gear. This is nice but not all you need. Low-end-torque and smoothness shall not be forgotten. Yesterday I was forced to follow a bicycle for some time. Slightly uphill, 4th gear, perhaps 10 mph? When a gap in the oncoming traffic appears, you just step on the accelerator and go. No shaking or vibrating or sputtering. You get used to this kind of driving like with an automatic transmission.
  10. You don't need a scope (endoscope), just look or use your finger. The combustion chamber is lage enough...after you removed one valve cap. My Tourer (with aluminium pistons as shown above) seems flat as well as the Sedan.
  11. yes but no success yet. I am preparing a report, needs a bit more of nightime.
  12. 6. Another possibility is searching for the piston manufacturer who made the aluminium pistons for my 1916 tourer which were used during overhaul in approximately 1959/1960: See the photos with casting numbers. Does anyone get an idea who made these pistons when looking at these photos? Side note: These people knew what they did. They even drilled holes into some of the pistons, assumingly for equalizing their weight. I was told that after assembly the complete crankshaft-conrod-piston-flywheel-clutch-assembly was dynamically balanced. As a proof I found a small weight additionally welded onto the circumference of the clutch body.
  13. 5. Additional information which might help for searching replacement pistons Of course you can get new pistons made specifically for your engine according to your demand and specs. Another approach (which I have done successfully on other engines) is this: Search for pistons from easily available, technically advanced and usually mass-produced engines and modify them accordingly. The advantages, such as easier availability, high quality and (usually) lower cost, and the possibility to easily buy a replacement or parts like new rings. The problem is how to find that donor engine? Besides the cylinder diameter (4.5") and gudgeon pin diameter (1,13"), the compression height is the most important dimension for your search. This is the height from the top edge to the center of the gudgeon pin. For this value I measured 2,811" (71,4mm) at Lothar's piston. Next I searched in the 1991-edition catalogue of KS-pistons (an old famous German manufacurer) and found two possible directions for the search: 1. Caterpillar, if your bores are still standard or sleeved back to standard. 2. Scania if you can bore your engine to 115,00 mm which is just in between the second and third oversize offered by Locomobile. All these powerful diesel engines use gudgeon pins are far bigger than the ones on our Loco. If the Locomobile connecting rod small end doesn't allow for that diameter, then perhaps bushing the piston might work. The piston crowns are shaped for diesel engine use. See the data in the third column. For example the CAT D330A: 95,5mm compression height as now, minus 12,5mm what you can probably machine away until you get a flat crown, ends up at a compression height of 83mm. Just a bit more than Loco's original 71,4mm. I am not sure if all the excessive material can be machined off and still retaining enough wall thickness at the crown? By doing this, there is a chance for creating a domed piston. Again, just food for thoughts. Maybe someone will find out? Or one of you already tried modifying an aluminium diesel piston and knows why it won't work?
  14. 4. Compression ratios I already wrote something about compression ratios on page 2 of this thread. https://forums.aaca.org/topic/372378-locomobile-model-48-and-38-engine-related-topics/page/2/ The point was: the thickness variation of the valve caps does influence the compression ratio by only 1%! Domed pistons are not increasing the compression ratio as much as on "normal" (=no T-head) engines, and there is not too much space between piston and top of cylinder, watch the drawings. The distance between the inlet and exhaust valve centers on the model 48 engine is 8.3", the total width of the combustion chamber is more than 11"! In the meantime I found more data related to the compression ratio: April 1916: 26% = 1:3,85, 82.5 HP at 1800 RpM May 1917: 25% = 1:4,00, 90 HP at 2000-2200 RpM Aug.1923: 23% = 1:4,35, 98-107 HP at 2150 RpM Don't be mis-leaded, there were more changes done by Locomobile, not only increasing the compression ratio. The camshafts were ground differently, with modified valve timing, carburetor and ignition, lubrication and cooling, vibration dampers and muffler back-pressure, and probably more than we can ever find out. One last comment related to the compression ratio: During the 10.000 mile test carried out in 1916 by the Locomobile testing department, it was suggested " to reduce the compression from 24 1/2 to 25% (=from 1:4,08 to 1:4,00). If the higher compression ratio had given advantages, they would certainly have used that!
  15. a. The weight of the steel pistons used until 1923 is 4 lb. 6 oz. b. The weight of the aluminium alloy pistons used afterwards (series 19000) is 2 lb. 8 oz. After summarizing all the data, I believe their data is for one piston with 2 locking screws, without rings and the gudgeon pin. When comparing the naked pistons only, there was a weight saving of 42%. Considering Rings, pins and all, it is still a saving of 32%.
  16. 3. topic: Piston weight I measured Lothar's piston and parts, and I compared these figures to the information from the Locomobile improvements in 1923/1924:
  17. The Chevy's diameter is 3 1/2" instead of the Loco's 4 1/2", the clearance in the area above the piston rings (they call it lands, 0,015-0,023") is even higher than measured on the Loco, the max. tolerance of skirt clearance with 0,003" is exactly as found on Lothar's old piston (!). I learn from that: 1. Locomobile used really small tolerances, 2. Lothar's old piston seems not worn out at all. 3. The Locomobile steel piston is only 38% heavier than the "modern" GM-piston for the Chevy, considering the lb per square inch to eliminate the influence of their absolute size.
  18. b. I compared this to the 1950 Chevy 216 stovebolt, which was one of the last engines made with cast iron pistons. See it's technical specs:
  19. The second issue for today: Piston dimensions and clearances See the measurements on Lothar's piston. Assuming the cylinder diameter would be exactly 4.5", there is a smallest clearance of 0,003 inch (average figures). I am surprised to see a. The small clearance is only available from the center to the bottom of the piston. The whole ring area seems to be purposely machined to a smaller diameter with a constant clearance of 0,015".
  20. Series 19000: No piston details written in the manual, but the longitudinal view shows several rings on top with oil holes below the 3rd ring, no ring but grooves at the bottom, and the piston is domed. A technical report about the improvements on series 19000 explain: Four narrow piston rings are used, all above the piston pin.
  21. Ca. 1920 in the manual for model 48 series 7: Three compression rings and one groove below the 3rd ring for smoke prevention. Still with a flat top.
  22. April 1917 (series 2): same but three compression rings and one groove below the 3rd ring for smoke prevention.
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