The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[Dandy Dave]

10 hours ago, 13White said:

I agree completely with all of this, but I have to add that although the transmission cases are the same, aluminum and cast iron, the Model 15 3/4 ton trucks have 3rd gear direct, and 4th gear overdrive, the same as the cars.  The 1 1/2 ton model 20 truck transmission looks the same but 4th gear is direct and no overdrive. 

Not always. My Model 15 Truck does not have overdrive. According to my parts book this was an option. . 3rd is forward. Direct is back and it is marked that way on the floor board on my truck. Look at the photos from my parts book for the Model 15 transmission. Gears for upper and lower transmission shaft shown. Dandy Dave!  

Edited March 12, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Mike.......from some observations, the White’s with the radiators suspended in springs seem to be 1 1/2 ton or heavier. The WWI trucks seem to have no consistent build types..........your truck frame looks much lighter than my 1917 car frame, and much more like my 1915. You said your truck was a chemical truck......I’m guessing then it’s a fire truck. Many Knox chemical trucks were “transportation” units as much as fire fighting units from the ones I have encountered. My two car transmission look nothing like you truck unit. Mine look like a mid 20’s mid line car and are fairly small from what I expected. Your transmission also looks small to my eyes compared to the mid teens units I have worked on in the past. It appears to be half the size of a Pope Hartford or Pierce car unit’s that I have played with. I have only seen a few photos of the front axel with the holes in it.........again, it appears much lighter than my two cars........especially the 1917. Not sure how you determined the date on the truck......could it be earlier and have a newer engine? Was there an “official” swap over date for trucks from RHD to LHD? I’m curious as to the direct/overdrive in 3rd and 4th. Any photos of the steering box? Looks like the truck is going to be a real head turner when done........what are you going to use/build for a body?

My White model 15 -3/4 ton truck, and others that I have seen have the shocks on the radiator. The height of the fenders hide them in side view photos. Dandy Dave!  

Edited March 12, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

And the floor board option. 

[LI_BENTLEY]

10 hours ago, 13White said:

I agree completely with all of this, but I have to add that although the transmission cases are the same, aluminum and cast iron, the Model 15 3/4 ton trucks have 3rd gear direct, and 4th gear overdrive, the same as the cars.  The 1 1/2 ton model 20 truck transmission looks the same but 4th gear is direct and no overdrive. 

The cases are the same dimensions the 3 direct gears will drop into a 4 direct case nice cost effective was to obtain overdrive in a 4 direct car or truck.  There are more 3 direct transmissions around than 4 direct.  Can tell appart because they are stamped on front mount, 3 D or 4 D.

 

 

[Dandy Dave]

Just to clarify. The overdrive transmissions that I have seen shift back for direct and forward for 4th with overdrive. This is opposite of my Model 15 with 3rd forward and direct back as high gear. Dandy Dave. 

[Larry Schramm]

Maybe this will help.

[edinmass]

Typical White.........tons of options and choices. The only thing standard on a White vehicle is the name.

[13White]

5 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Not always. My Model 15 Truck does not have overdrive. According to my parts book this was an option. . 3rd is forward. Direct is back and it is marked that way on the floor board on my truck. Look at the photos from my parts book for the Model 15 transmission. Gears for upper and lower transmission shaft shown. Dandy Dave!  

If I keep learning like this my head is going to explode! thanks again!!!

[blastermike]

Yeh these whites are a learning curve for sure, the engine im using has a cast date of 1919 on it, 

the guy i bought this from said there was a small square shaped chemical tank right on the back which from the rusting on the back i could see where it went and it came with a platform which hung down and out the rear apparently for a couple of firemen to stand on, it was all welded to the rear and really overbuilt

when i removed it there was a welded date?  GR 1933. maybe this was when the white was converted for the firetruck/transport role?? 
To me the frame looks just too small but as others have said the diff and trans used in most of the mid sized to the smallest were the same, so its probably the heavy running gear making the frame look more car like?

ive added some pictures of the trans nos 3D and some other parts, i only have one pedal of this style which has the round removeable pedal and my steering box has had the shaft/tube cut of and the droparm shortened,

Ed im not 100 percent what type of body to make for this yet but it is great to have the freedom to make it into what ever you like, on another note i have now found another white like this in spokane wa and can buy the parts im needing, wheels, steering  parts etc just waiting for the snow to go

thanks to all for your comments and help, 

[Gunsmoke]

While I have hundreds of Automotive books (mostly focused on pre-war cars) including the entire AQ 50 year collection, have not read much on the White Cars so this thread has been a great introduction to this relatively rare breed of cars (excluding their trucks which continued long after WWI). The 4-30, 4-50 and 6-60 terms (# cyls and HP) were a pretty simple way of capturing what they were selling mechanically. My 25 year AQ index only runs 1962-1987, and there are no White specific articles in that index(although there are 3 or 4 photos in other articles). So I wonder if anyone knows if AQ carried any articles on White in their subsequent issues between 1988-2012? I did read the Wikipedia post on the cars. 

[edinmass]

The funny part of White history......for two or three years,  they were the largest manufacturer of automobiles in America. Sometime between 1905-1908. Then they became the largest truck manufacturer. There are 168 steam cars surviving, and a registry that is maintained by a dedicated bunch of people. For gas cars.......almost nothing is available, and the same for early trucks. Post WWI the scholarship is fairly clear. From 1910-1920 truck information is scarce and incomplete. I’m amazed that the truck guys are as active and still restoring new finds. The cross over between cars and trucks is fairly limited to the 30 hp engine. From what I see, they must have made a dozen different front and rear ends for cars and trucks between 1913 and 1918. Most of all.......it’s appears to be “the same thing but different.” I have yet to see identical chassis except on the 1917-1918 16 valve cars. Every other car I have seen is fairly different. And the speedsters built from trucks are fairly prolific. It all adds to the fun.

[blastermike]

Yeh Ed i agree its all part of the fun owning and trying to restore these old whites, out of the 3 i have the 1918 5 ton model is the most original but i have no sheetmetal for it, 

at present ive overhauled the waterpump and put new bearings in the fan assembly that was on my engine, im now focussing on the clutch which will need new linings and when i cracked it open it had been wet for a while unfortuately, but it is fixable, got to find the bronze ? woven type clutch material or something similar? 

[blastermike]

Sorry dont know why some pictures end up sideways??

[George K]

12 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

It is a Garford.

At least I was close. Both built in Ohio. And not too pretty.

[Gunsmoke]

In checking into the origins of White vehicles, came across Thomas White (I think that was founder)who started company in late 1890's I recall, and later his son Rollin White who took over at some point. Interesting also came across a previous Rollin White, an arms manufacturer who patented one of the first revolver patents (prototype turned out not to work), and eventually got into lawsuits and later business dealings with Smith&Wesson and Colt (1860-1890's?). Not sure if this was perhaps the Grandfather? We on AACA are sure pleased that there are people who have saved and documented such scarce cars. I always get a chuckle when Ed says "the same thing but different", such a great term to describe much of the early manufacturers who had to keep improving their products as they were building them. No such thing as 2-4 year lead time from design/style to production.

[Larry Schramm]

Maybe this will help.

[edinmass]

The 1915 is getting two hoops this week. Old ones are hard as my ex wife’s head. Did the sun trick and it did help a bit. The new tires are a bit taller than the old off brand ones. 

[George K]

I recently had  to remove some tires from a car that sat over fifty years. One was harder than Chinese math. The next was even harder. I think it was harder than petrified woodpeckers lips. Funny what happens to old tires.

[blastermike]

Wonder if anyone can advise me how this plate comes out of the rear flywheel section, there is a little brass insert key that holds what looks like gear teeth on the back of the plate, and also there’s  2 brass screws on the sides but i dont think they go through enough to be holding the plate from the edge? any help would be much appreciated, i have 3 clutchs and i really dont want to destroy one to find out

thanks mike

[Dandy Dave]

Images from my parts book and owners manual. Hope this helps. 

 

[Dandy Dave]

One more. 

[blastermike]

Thanks dandy dave that will be a great help

cheers

[edinmass]

The bronze locking plug is the clutch adjustment. You remove the plug, press down on the clutch, and then turn the disk with a screw driver to properly adjust the clutch. Please post a photo of the friction material if you have any.

[blastermike]

Thanks Ed , but one other problem is how does that plate come out?? it almost looks like its threaded? I have tried to punch it through the adjusting hole but its in there  tight and if i hit it any harder i might break it, the 2 brass screws on the sides dont go in enough to hold anything not sure what their purpose is? Im contemplating cutting out the paint late on one of the spare clutchs i have with a grinder to see how the plate is held?

mike

[Gunsmoke]

Most likely based on what it looks like and how it functions/adjusts, it is threaded along outer edge (otherwise would not be "adjustable".) Soak in some solvent and try to get toothed part to turn by using a large pry etc. Or find a way to apply turning force on inner piece while holding the outer piece in a vise/clamp. Once able to turn it a little it should free up. JM2Cents worth.

[Dandy Dave]

Agree that it is threaded. I've adjusted and repaired similar clutches in old Bulldozers and power units. Old Caterpillar clutches have two threaded holes that act like a puller to aid in removing the unit. One I worked on for a friend years ago was installed with the bolts still in it. His help put it in and warped the threaded plate in the process. Turned everything into instant junk. You will need to use a lot of penetrating oil and keep working at it. Tap on it with a hammer and brass punch. The vibration will help loosen it. Walk away for a while and come back later. Have some patients. You'll get it. It is not uncommon for the threads to be stuck. Dandy Dave!

Edited March 15, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[edinmass]

There is an expert on these clutches here in Florida. I’m going on a road trip with him Thursday to look at a White car that just changed hands. Send me a PM and I will give you his number. He made a giant wrench on a water jet machine to get one apart.......when they stick, you are in trouble.

[blastermike]

Ok Ed, i see on the plate there are two small holes on opposite outer edges, im thinking maybe they are there for a special tool to then be able to wind the plate out or in ? 
i will take dandy daves advice and use some penetrating oil and taping with a brass hammer, i wont.  “gorilla it” 

today i spoke with an old time clutch/brake bussiness and the owner said the woven bronze type material hasnt been available here for years but has a clutch material he has used on other vintage vehicles this age with no problems, the other thing he said was they will need to drill new holes in the plate and flywheel as the existing ones have countersunk areas, the newer clutch material is very rigid so needs to pull up against a flat surface and they will countersink the linings to keep the rivet heads lower than the linings, hope im making sense??

another factor too is the thickness of the newer linings, the minimum they have is around 4 mm which is around double what the original stuff is but i suppose its had some wear ? 

im sending it all of tommorow and they assure me it can be done, 

thanks very much for everyones help

mike

[Dandy Dave]

Yes. This makes sense. The center drive plate with the material will need holes drilled in it because the modern material holes are in a different place than the original. I have had to do this myself on different clutch plates where the material is made from now unobtainium. As long as you have enough adjustment, Thicker is not a problem. I have a rivet machine with a countersink attachment that I purchased at an auction a bunch of years ago which you need to do it right. Both of my Agricat crawlers needed steering clutch work. I was lucky enough to have some clutch material that worked out for the job. Also, brake linings are done in the same fashion. The way it came home is the bottom image. The way it came out, the middle image.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

2 hours ago, blastermike said:

i will take dandy daves advice and use some penetrating oil and taping with a brass hammer, i wont.  “gorilla it” 

 

Something I tell people often. "Don't force it, 'finesse it' ".

[63RedBrier]

5 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Yes. This makes sense. The center drive plate with the material will need holes drilled in it because the modern material holes are in a different place than the original. I have had to do this myself on different clutch plates where the material is made from now unobtainium. As long as you have enough adjustment, Thicker is not a problem. I have a rivet machine with a countersink attachment that I purchased at an auction a bunch of years ago which you need to do it right. Both of my Agricat crawlers needed steering clutch work. I was lucky enough to have some clutch material that worked out for the job. Also, brake linings are done in the same fashion. The way it came home is the bottom image. The way it came out, the middle image.

 

 

Quite the labor of love, Dave!  Great work on the crawler!  You certainly had a vision...

[pkhammer]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

There is an expert on these clutches here in Florida. I’m going on a road trip with him Thursday to look at a White car that just changed hands. Send me a PM and I will give you his number. He made a giant wrench on a water jet machine to get one apart.......when they stick, you are in trouble.

  I have access to water-jet and laser cutting machines at my workplace. I also do CAD drafting of custom parts quite frequently. Handiest thing on earth for cutting custom parts from sheet or plate. 

[JV Puleo]

On 3/12/2022 at 8:02 PM, Gunsmoke said:

In checking into the origins of White vehicles, came across Thomas White (I think that was founder)who started company in late 1890's I recall, and later his son Rollin White who took over at some point. Interesting also came across a previous Rollin White, an arms manufacturer who patented one of the first revolver patents (prototype turned out not to work), and eventually got into lawsuits and later business dealings with Smith&Wesson and Colt (1860-1890's?). Not sure if this was perhaps the Grandfather? We on AACA are sure pleased that there are people who have saved and documented such scarce cars. I always get a chuckle when Ed says "the same thing but different", such a great term to describe much of the early manufacturers who had to keep improving their products as they were building them. No such thing as 2-4 year lead time from design/style to production.

I believe the earlier Rollin white was a great uncle of the Automobile manufacturer. There is also the White sewing machine introduced in 1858, the product of an earlier Thomas White. The car company may have been more closely related the the sewing machines than the revolver was. The elder Rollin White's revolver patent included the "bored through cylinder". This was the important part. (The revolver itself was not very good although White did eventually manufacture some.) Until then all revolvers using percussion caps had a cylinder closed at the back end and were loaded from the front...like little muzzle loaders. White licensed his patent to Smith & Wesson who produced .22 and .32 caliber revolvers, neither of which were large enough to be considered suitable for government issue during the Civil War. White was extremely litigious, filing suit against anyone he thought might be taking advantage of his invention and, in the end, (according to him at least) spending nearly all his receipts from the patent on lawyers. This was probably an exaggeration but at one point he tried to stop the importation of French Lefacueux revolvers for the Union Army because they had bored through cylinders. In fact, the design pre-dated White's patent and if Mr. Lefacheux had bothered to get a US patent it would have voided White's. A federal court threw the case out. After the war, when the patent ran out, he tried to renew it. This was usually a matter of course but in this case the Chief of Ordnance made a specific complaint that White's war-time actions had hampered the war effort and, in an unusual decision, the patent renewal was refused.

[Studeous]

“Willoughby, next stop Willoughby, WATCH THE FIRST STEP..”

[Dandy Dave]

22 hours ago, 63RedBrier said:

Quite the labor of love, Dave!  Great work on the crawler!  You certainly had a vision...

Yes. This particular model was well built. The cost for these was $2,400 in the early 1960's. And they are rare because they were a specialty item made to work in tight narrow places. The one I have was built around 1957. Parts are unobtainable on the tractor so other than standard bearings, and a few other items. Everything had to be made. I had to make 7 track links for the chain, and 10 new pads, plus a lot of other stuff to get it back together. A lot of machining and fabricating. The tractor was in the sandy salty soil of Newport News, Va. I bet Ed will gain a new respect for Tractor Mechanics now. 😁 Stole enough of the thread. Back to Whites. Dandy Dave!

  

Edited March 17, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

On 3/15/2022 at 6:02 PM, blastermike said:

Thanks Ed , but one other problem is how does that plate come out?? it almost looks like its threaded? I have tried to punch it through the adjusting hole but its in there  tight and if i hit it any harder i might break it, the 2 brass screws on the sides dont go in enough to hold anything not sure what their purpose is? Im contemplating cutting out the paint late on one of the spare clutchs i have with a grinder to see how the plate is held?

mike

Looking this over. The clutch release sleeve has pressure on it from the spring. It is also threaded. You will need to set it in a press on the spring side and push the spring down just enough to take the pressure off of the clutch release collar and thread it off. The threads should be right hand but look at it close to be sure. Then you will be able to take the pressure off of the spring slowly to remove the shaft. Once that is done it will take the spring pressure off of the adjustable threaded clutch. Then you will need to get the threads moving so that it can be unthreaded. DO NOT TAKE IT APART WITH SPRING PRESSURE ON IT. You can get hurt. Also there is a good chance the threads will be F'ed up or destroyed. Dandy Dave! 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[blastermike]

Ok dave i understand, i was thinking i didnt need to remove the clutch release, but it is sort of in the way,  looking into the holes on the holding collar the threads look clean and im going to make something to fit into the two holes to help wind the collar piece off, i know what your saying about getting hurt,  i once was removing some rusted u bolts holding a rusted set of truck springs with a grinder and when i cut the last side off the energy from the built up rust exploded them apart, one hit me under my jaw and i ended up at the dentist with two cracked teeth, could of been worse i reckon, i now wrap a piece of chain around anything like that and use a gas torch so i can stand back

thanks mike

[LI_BENTLEY]

For you non White folks the single plate clutch utilized a steel driven disc with the friction material on the driving part ie the clutch housing and pressure plate. Just the opposite of a modern clutch we are used to seeing, yes Whites are different.  I use automatic transmission fluid in my car.  Has been ok for 35 years so think is good to use.  The book says the friction disc is saw steel and the friction material is .125" thick.

[Dandy Dave]

The outer plug in the housing is there to put oil in the clutch housing. (Marked "F" in the photo I provided.) The book I have here says 1/2 a pint of engine oil. Of course there wasn't any ATF back when these were new, so I would say that is a good choice and a better grade than anything from back when these vehicles were new.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[blastermike]

So Dave this is a wet clutch?  and those two brass plugs in the side of the rear 1/2 of the flywheel are for filling with engine oil ?

mike